DJC49 wrote:
Your interpretation of what Penal Atonement is (i.e., a bloodless Atonement) illustrates how profoundly ignorant you are, CAB.

You have two kinds of atonement--a blood atonement, meaning the remedy is in the blood;

The penal atonement means the remedy (for spiritual death and damnation) is in the punishment, which is what 'penal' means, (the suffering, the punishment).

The suffering of Jesus was off the charts as we know, and I have never seen a crucifixion movie, could not bear to watch it. It's hard to contemplate the horror. But the suffering of Jesus did not equal the punishment of all the sins of the world. Even Hell does not purport to be an equal payment for sins committed in this life, because Hell is forever. The Bible does say there are different degrees of damnation, but still the punishment will be greater than the offense, not less.

There's something else going on here, and it involves our faith, trust and love for Jesus. If we don't love, adore and trust him for who he is, if we see him as just God's punching bag to take his wrath, then that's not really faith, doesn't work, won't save.

Penal (Bloodless) Atonement: Key unbiblical heresy undergirding all 5 points of TULIP and OSAS--says God picked people to be saved and arranged to personally pour out wrath on Jesus on the cross and 3 days in Hell, one by one, for every single "Chosen's" sin, calculated and tabulated beforehand. Is a variation of Catholic heresy that has Jesus still suffering, writhing, atoning on the cross.

****

Blood Atonement (Key Christian, Biblical Truth): The blood of Jesus cleanses from all sin, creates a new creature in Christ, saves the soul who repents and trusts Jesus. One drop is all-sufficient for the sins of the world, to any sinner who comes to Jesus in sincere repentance for salvation or forgiveness of sins after salvation. On the cross just before He gave up the ghost Jesus said, ‘It is FINISHED’. The job was done.

John UK wrote:
What you have to realise is that the doctrine of double imputation is expressed by all Christians. Yet you don't like it. You don't like calvinium doctrine, okay, a lot of folks also don't like it. But if you're going to harangue against such doctrine, what is your alternative?
I suggest that you've picked up on Corner's faulty argumentation. He likes to poke fun at calvinism, even to the point of irreverence and telling lies about about what calvinists believe. It is a typical cultist method of making his own speech somewhat acceptable. But it don't wash with me. You, on the other hand, have now claimed the best theology is Arminian. And I have produced for your benefit some classic arminian quotes from the man himself. But that throws you, so you say my post was "surreal". This is merely an attempt to get out of the hole you've dug for yourself. Cornerism is out on a limb. It tries to make use of scripture without one word about imputation of Righteousness through faith. What kind of religion is THAT!? The question is, how may a sinner be right with God?

Christopher000 wrote:
IOW, if you are confronted with renouncing Jesus and worshipping the antichrist, or lose your head -- what would you do? Why would you do it?
This is an interesting question that I have posed before. One of Satan's minions is about to behead one of us. We know our faith is strong...we know who we believe in, why, and have lived lives that back up our faith in Christ. Considering all of this, would a lie to the executioner to save our life for a while longer, knowing Christ knows our true heart, be a deal breaker? I'm familiar with he who saves his life will lose it, but curious to hear what others think.

pennnny wrote:
CAB, great info, if the mercury is taken out it needs to be someone with advanced training, it is not an easy procedure.
then the mercury pulled from the body after accumulation of yrs of it sitting in mouth.
interesting when using thermography someone may see a heat signature of lets say a growth on a woman that leads right back into an abscess in the mouth? I agree with your sentiments, the helplessness that is ingrained in them, when there are other ways, no wonder there's such a low view of God's design!

GsTexas wrote:
Did you even read the verses? It says "No man is justified by the law (works) in the sight of God" and "The just shall live by faith" and that Christ is made of none effect to those like you who think you are justified by works. There is no harmonizing your beliefs with these verses. Also No one is saying once we get saved that we have a license to sin or we dont have to obey scripture. You just keep using that as a strawman argument. Anyways, I really would rather end our conversation for now, is this fine with you?

Galatians is talking about living by faith in Jesus, not faith in turtledove sacrifices and holidays, stuff like that, that unfortunately there are a lot of Christians, more and more of them, who are celebrating Jewish holidays. I do not agree.

Concerned wrote:
CAB wrote....avoid dentists?? Why?
My tooth hurts.

The Internet is the best invention mankind ever got -- just Google up and find natural solutions for your dental problems, also for sure any health issues take care if it yourself and avoid the white coats.

You have to teach yourself how to be healthy, and I'm finding the most exciting thing is learning how to make great soil, organic soil to grow food that can counteract the chemtrails and poisoned water and the fake food we've been buying so trustingly from the grocery stores. But since everybody's getting sicker, more people are waking up that it's time to take things into our own hands when it comes to our health.

TeenChristian wrote:
I'm currently a naturopath in training. I've been listening to "Nutritional Wisdom" hosted by Joel Fuhrman M.D. What I've learned is that nutritional supplements CAN be useful, BUT, they cannot serve as a substitute for EATING your vitamins. Only one way to eat your vitamins, you gotta eat veggies! That's right dark, green, leafy vegetables! Eat plant strong!

Weston A Price has the scoop on diet. Mercola is great, Green Med too. Patrick Timpone online has a great radio show on health and wellness. Dr. Daniels is amazing, and she's got a big website, and her truth files have over a year's worth of broadcasts.

Congratulations. You say you're a teen and you're studying naturopathy? Where are you going? Will this be a long program? I don't know how I missed this, that you're studying to be what I call a "real" doctor.

TeenChristian wrote:
Penny: with all due respect (and I have a LOT of respect towards you) I have to disagree with you. You said "eating meat is more Scripturally aligned". Is it? In the beginning what did Adam & Eve eat? Fruits & vegetables right? It wasn't until the flood that God said it was OK to eat meat, and He only said it was OK because all the plants had been wiped out! What's my point? We were designed to eat plants! We were never specifically designed to eat meat!
Look.....I know I sound like a pharisee. And if I'm bashing you over the head, if I've offended you in any way, I'm sorry. Like I said I'm a naturopath (you know what that is right?) in training, this is what I've devoted my life to!
Tell you what just give me a chance, throw EVERY question you've got at me, about eating a plant strong lifestyle. I'll do my absolute best to answer them, sound OK?

John UK wrote:
What about imputed righteousness from the arminian camp? Note,
"Christ's righteousness is imputed to the believer: Justification is sola fide (faith only). When individuals repent and believe in Christ (saving faith), they are regenerated and brought into union with Christ, whereby the death and righteousness of Christ are imputed to them for their justification before God." Jacob Arminius
Here is double imputation, just like the caviniums believe.
You may notice the reversal of the order, but let's not go there today, chaps.
Well Cheryl, you may wonder why I am showing you these things. I am hoping that you will see that you have got hooked up to a false teacher who has NO historic fathers in the faith. He is a cultist without a doubt.
Now if you want to learn some better stuff, please go to [URL=http://www.spurgeon.org/all_of_g.htm]]]ALL OF GRACE[/URL] by Spurgeon, which is an excellent little article. That one article will convince you that Corner has misrepresented calviniums and their doctrine, and show you the glory of "so great salvation" of the glorious God.

John UK wrote:
Yes it is quite true to say that "we are washed in the blood of the Lamb."
And yet some people who say that are not washed in the blood. They misunderstand what it means.

John UK wrote:
"Jesus's death satisfies God's justice: The penalty for sins of elect is PAID IN FULL through Jesus's work on the cross." Jacob Arminius.
Conditional Perseverance.
"Salvation is conditioned on faith, therefore perseverance is also conditioned. Apostasy (turning from Christ)is only committed through a deliberate, willful rejection of Jesus and renunciation of saving faith. Such apostasy is irremediable." Jacob Arminius
Works perseverance? Or faith?

I'm not going to go to seminary to learn that stuff, and I'm not impressed. We have our Bible and the Holy Spirit; and, hey, my Bible says plain as day the BLOOD of Jesus cleanses us from sin. Well, I read through the Wikipedia articles put together by Calvinists/Reformed, and there was not ONE WORD ABOUT THE BLOOD. You can go check it out yourself and see.

I also didn't see Arminius' name there, but re his quotes above I don't disagree that the PENALTY for sins was paid in full.

But penal atonement means the Father personally whupped Jesus for specific sins of elect; that Jesus' blood, his suffering and shameful death on the cross is NOT SUFFICIENT atonement, not FINISHED.

John UK wrote:
There is a huge diference between "paid in advance" and "forgiven in advance". You must get the wording right. I can tell you when I was forgiven, and I can tell you when the sins were paid for - 2,000 years ago.
When Jesus died, he paid for sins of God's elect through the OT, and the sins of God's elect from the NT onwards. of course he paid in advance for us. There was only one crucifixion. And it is past. Yes, Arminius believed in penal substitution. You need to study this doctrine very carefully. And, like Spurgeon and Jim Lincoln's church, I am an Amyraldian not a Calvinium. An unlimited atonement specifically for the purpose of saving God's elect.

The point is, you admit you believe that all your sins were punished, penal atonement as you call it, in advance, every one of the sins individually, 2000 years ago as you say, that God knew every one of the sins you would commit and he personally saw to it that he blasted Jesus really good for all your sins. They are all paid for.

John UK wrote:
Well there flies another lie, Cheryl. You really ought to stop doing that.
And why avoid ***vicarious*** atonement? Did not arminius even believe in that? And you put him as the epitomy of Christian teaching.

So let's hear it. You do not believe that all our sins are paid in advance? Or you have some new angle you're going to present now that Arminius is the one teaching our sins being forgiven in advance?

Frank wrote:
CAB, concerning your post at 12:24PM
[14] For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15] But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. (Mat 6:14-15 KJV) Jesus said God is still the Father of those He is not forgiving.
[32] But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. (1Cr 11:32 KJV) ..Also see Hebrews 12:6-8. Same thought. He chastens those He loves - He does not condemn them.

This demonstrates God is not a pushover, that our sins are not all forgiven in advance, and a person will pay for (at least) the sin of unforgiveness the REST OF HIS LIFE and in the next as well if he does not repent (ie Hell).

GsTexas wrote:
Ill leave you with these verses:

Galatians 3:11 "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith."
Galatians 5:4 "Christ is become no effect unto you, whosoever of you is justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

Gal. 6:18 But IF, IF, IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness,revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in timei past, that THEY WHICH DO SUCH THINGS SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

Shane wrote:
Cab... can you show me one post were aperson says they can do whatever they want and still be saved?

I have brought up this week scriptures of things the Bible says we can and can't do if we want to go to Heaven, and I've been accused of advocating a "works religion."

Have you not noticed the abuse I take on this forum?

A couple people here are claiming St. Paul, the holiest saint you can find in the Bible, was Chief of Sinners during his ministry and after he became saved.

Just go check out some of the posts here.

UK John claimed in past posts that the Father poured out wrath on Jesus for every one of the sins a future Chosen One would ever commit, along with all the sins of the past Chosen Ones, so each sin is all paid in advance, so there's no way to lose our salvation since it's all prepaid.

Salvation by the wrath of God poured on Jesus on the cross and then in Hell, a sponge for God's wrath. Not salvation by the all-sufficient blood of the perfect holy Creator God Savior, who gave his life for us and took it up again--

GsTexas wrote:
CAB, perhaps I'd take you more seriously if you wouldn't ignore all the verses I post that teach we are justified by faith, not works. Also the verse I posted about our mansion is relevant because it shows the absurdity of your position.
Don't tell me to submit to the Bible when you won't even acknowledge the verses that I post, which teach justification by faith.

I can't even keep up with all the postings, don't even know what verse you speak of, but maybe I can get to it later.

And you keep the name-calling and reviling also, not exactly speaking in a respectful or Christian way to me.

And you are speaking here of verses dealing with initial salvation, and we're not talking about that. That's another subject. We're talking about, can a saved person become lost?

IOW, if you are confronted with renouncing Jesus and worshipping the antichrist, or lose your head -- what would you do? Why would you do it?

GsTexas wrote:
I have to go to work now, I will pray that God will open your eyes to the truth. Ill leave you with these verses:
Galatians 3:11 "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith."
Galatians 5:4 "Christ is become no effect unto you, whosoever of you is justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

Dorcas wrote:
"Martyrs Mirror" by T.J Van Braght is a book tells the stories of many of our Baptist brethren that suffered so much.

The Bible says we are entering into a time when the whole world will have to worship Satan and the Antichrist, or get their head chopped off. So what do we do?

Jesus said plainly, if we deny him, he WILL deny us before the Father. There is a REASON why Christians in the Bible and in Foxe's Book of Martyrs endured torture and burning and "loved not their lives so much as to shrink from death" as it says in Revelation --

Don't you find it strange the churches are not preparing people? Have Christianity's rules all changed since TBN, John MacArthur and Calvin came along? Jesus came 2000 years ago, and Calvinism, the harlot's daughter more wicked than her mother, was born just a few centuries ago.

If we listen to the posters here we will not worry about losing our soul, and we will shrivel under persecution like the second example in the parable of the sower, if we have not already done so.