Mike wrote: Hi, Pew. You know that "destined for hell" is to those who reject God's truth, right? They are without excuse for a reason. Psalm 9:17 "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God." Can't forget what has never been revealed, Pew.
Hi Mike. You been whited out by all this white stuff falling over there?
As for "revealed" don't forget that some of us still believe in a sovereign God in election. You get good "gifts" (Eph 2:8 Faith) from a sovereign God.
"Pro-gay activists and church leaders are touting an alternative "inclusive" prayer event to this year's National Prayer Breakfast"
No Need to pray.
God's answer to the sodomite abomination is already recorded in Scripture. God states... "13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
Jer 7:16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.
I just love these verses of the Word and promise of God.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The FACT that FAITH is the gift of God is tremendously powerful for the Elect and together with the verses Eph 1:4,5 which confirm that God elected and predestinated us before the foundation of the world, is cast iron proof set in spiritual concrete that we will be saved. Amen.
They also illustrate precisely how wrong the concept of works based religion is.
Jim Lincoln wrote: As far as atonement is concerned,....read this booklet on line, booklets/pdf - "Calvinism & Arminianism"
No Jim; I'm afraid I will have to disagree with Gil Rugh here. He says; "But they (5 Pointer) do not believe that you should tell an unbeliever that Christ died for his sin and exhort him to believe, because if he is one of the elect, he will respond. And if he is not one of the elect, then there has been no provision for his sin."(G.Rugh)
The problem with this hypothesis is the 'COMPREHENSION' of the individual. If the group you are addressing is not yet saved, lets say in an evangelistic situation, then very few of them will comprehend the full meaning, if indeed any of it. The Elect are not going to believe BECAUSE of this specific point, neither are the non-elect. So it is a straw man!
To make this a reason for not teaching Biblical Limited Atonement is deceitful and in error.
If subsequently you ask about a congregation in church? Then you would still preach the truth of Limited Atonement, since those who are in the pews will again either be Elect, or non-elect convinced of their salvation anyway. EG. Matt 7:21-23 were so convinced, but Jesus tells them otherwise! He does not hold back the truth!
John UK wrote: This is the position of the Particular Redemptionist
I think you have to ask why the change is found by some to be necessary.
Is the expiation of Christ comprehensive in its application to humanity? - NO!
Is the expiation of Christ applied to ALL mankind? NO!
What is the 'Atonmement' of Christ? Briefly put....."In theology, the expiation of sin made by the obedience and personal sufferings of Christ."
Is their a specific range to which this Atonement is applied by God? YES!
It is applied to the Elect of God IN Christ.
Does this mean God 'limits' the expiation/atonement of His Son to a specific group of People? YES!
For centuries "Limited Atonement" has been known and taught as derived from the experiential knowledge, and the spiritual knowledge gained by faith, by the Christian. These self same Christians were taught of the Holy Spirit.
Limited Atonement is NOT something the Christian needs to fear, - BUT to rejoice in because of God's election, justification and salvation IN Christ.
John UK wrote: 1 Tim 3:16 And without controuersie, great is the mysterie of godlinesse: God was manifest in the flesh, iustified in the Spirit, seene of Angels, preached vnto the Gentiles, beleeued on in the world, receiued vp into glory. King James Bible 1611 And without controuersie, great is the mysterie of godlinesse, which is, God is manifested in the flesh, iustified in the Spirit, seene of Angels, preached vnto the Gentiles, beleeued on in the world, and receiued vp in glorie. Geneva Bible 1587 And without doubt, great is that misterie of godlynesse: God was shewed in the flesshe, was iustified in the spirite, was seene among the angels, was preached vnto the gentiles, was beleued on in the worlde, and was receaued vp in glorie. __________________ By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory. NASB Where did God go?
Interesting point there John! The Greek there has the word "theos" which is Greek for..... Yes you guessed it "GOD"!!!! Isn't "GOD'S WORD" amazing.
Jim Lincoln wrote: Any Bible that was designed by state committee and is not in good modern English, should be automatically rejected, by the English reading Christian for serious study of The Word.
Any of the modern translations eg NIV,ESV,NKJV,NASB etc should be rejected because of the bad Greek texts which they have come from. The Christian is guided into the truth by the Holy Spirit and this has always been the case - and has been in the last four centuries, using the KJV.
It was not The Holy Spirit which requested His Sword be sharpened. This confusion of versions came from man the sinner.
If today we actually saw that the churches were becomming more sound in doctrine from the current myriad of so called Modern Versions then we could celebrate. BUT obviously "modern vernacular" CLEARLY does not mean "sound doctrine."
If the modern versions and modern vernacular increased and revived the church then we could assume GOD was blessing them. BUT thats not the case either.
The KJV for 400 years has proved to be more constructive in the hands of GOD than *ALL* these modern versions put together. FACT!!
John UK wrote: #2 Are you SURE we have to overcome covetousness and the god of mammon? Or were you referring to church members?
p.s. I've missed you very much, so I am very glad to see you back.
Just a reference to this age's new god John. Back in the old days more of us were peasants than today if you take my meaning. Yesteryear we had Upper, Middle and Working class. Today its more some can afford much the rest spread it between themselves. The working class have become Middle, because of vanity rather than income. [Wonder why they still vote labour ]
ps I'm never too far away to miss a chance for a good fencepost. ¬¨¬¨¬¨¬¨¬¨¬¨¬¨¬¨¬¨¬¨¬¨¬¨¬¨¬¨¬¨¬¨
Mike wrote: Oh John, you needn't worry, bro Pew is never far from our hearts. Hope this Sunday has been a blessing to you. And Pew
Aaawww Mike I love you too. I sometimes wonder if you have prophetic powers Mike. You started ploughing over there yet?
DisplacedMaritimer (Bert) wrote: a] There are many passages in Scripture (e.g. James 2:14) that we are not saved by faith alone. He even goes as far as to say that faith alone without works is a dead faith.
b] the most important Scriptural reference is Matt 25:33-46. Notice that Jesus is not saying that the goats have been refused entry into Heaven because of their sins....... .....These are people who believed in Jesus and had faith in Him but who did not do any good works.
Hey Bert; a] the faith alone thing is true - as regards the "work" part of it - it is works done by faint/in faith which is vital here. Nobody thinks that we get faith then just lay back and wait, but works done by the true believer are guided by the Holy Spirit. In that respect the works do not emanate from the sinner but are a work of God done IN HIS Disciple. Thus ALL the glory goes and rightfully belongs to God. The sinner servant is and remains unworthy of salvation - except by and IN Christ.
b] But note Matt 7:21-23 where the believer DID do works which Jesus did not credit. Jesus then states, "I never knew you" Thus their works were of no consquence to the Lord.
FAITH-works done by the elect is God working in the sinner and alone is acceptable to GOD!
John UK wrote: The best place for the church to go is outdoors where the sinners are. Out on the streets, handing out tracts, preaching the gospel with a loud voice, gently witnessing to interested individuals...
Great ideas John. But these are unusual times arn't they. We have had times in our history where good servants of Christ were burned at the stake. Back in Victoria's age the lack of education did not prevent tract distribution, some people did Bible reading for the illiterate from door to door. The Reformation brought the Bible closer to ordinary folks, fighting the suppression of the RCC and their superstitions.
But today we have to overcome covetousness and ye old popular god of mammon. Also there is a distinct decline in the number of people who find a pew, to at least begin the process. Then there is the church of ignorance and error which nullifies the work, but still finds a place in the community.
The battle of course is well in hand against the forces of darkness and their insidious offensive, such as tares amongst the wheat, false teachings and confusion.
But hey, some things never change! Jesus started with just twelve and look what happened.
"exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith"
Perhaps this is the impasse we arrive at in our different doctrinal perceptions, Mike. Divine Sovereignty and human responsibility are paradoxical and beyond human comprehension - BUT NOT contradictory. Whereas Divine Sovereignty and human sovereignty are most certainly a complete contradiction. God *USES* human means. NB the term "USES" The Doctrine of Sovereignty of God is taught in the Augustine-Calvinist theology. BUT is essentially denied or compromised in the Pelagian, Arminian and Liberal traditions, which claim varying degrees of human autonomy. (Based upon Elwell Theol Dic).
The "radical" Arminian position (and septs) take human autonomy and human self determination to even greater degrees and there do you find Modern Liberal theology in many denoms and churches today. Anglican/Episcopalian for example. Thus the very seed or leaven of unprecedented human contribution is very dangerous to Biblical Doctrine of Salvation.
Remember the advice of the Preacher at Eccl 1:2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity." This is a warning on the human condition. We struggle against this.
Mike wrote: a] You forgot to answer the human responsibility question, pew.
b] "let him deny himself"? What is this, some do it yourself instruction?
Hi Mike. You guys on holiday just now it seems very quiet around here?
a] No I didn't. The ability of the sinner to overcome sin and come to Christ is by God's gift of faith alone. You CANNOT separate human ability/action (responsibility?) from the work of Grace and Spirit.
b] Denying self is the task of the born again (only) and part of the inner struggle which the Holy Spirit enables us to deal with. We can only achieve this by the Spirit's help. No Spirit No happen!
"But since the Scriptures show that God ultimately determines what we will do and yet we are still accountable for our actions, we must conclude that the common belief that moral accountability requires ultimate self-determination is false. Ultimate self-determination is unnecessary for moral accountability. Therefore, we see that moral accountability is based upon something other than the power of ultimate self-determination."(M. Perman)
Funny Man wrote: does human responsibility have any place in your theology?
You Papistic Arminian salvation by self folks are very practised in insults arn't you. Here the True Bible Calvinists are trying to teach you the Truth and all we get is bad mouthing. Oh well the Lord said WE would be persecuted.
Human responsibility. - God elects. God provides faith as a gift to the Elect. Faith is the work of the Holy Spirit. Thus GOD providentially in HIS mercy provides us with the ability to serve HIM, even though we are Totally Depraved and sin prevents us from spiritual decision. Thus do we carry out the work of GOD in our life which belongs to HIM.
As John the Baptist taught "He must increase, but I must decrease"
As Jesus commanded "Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."
And Paul "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do"
Now I realise that you Arminies want a piece of the action in salvation. But GOD does not need help.