John UK wrote:
I know I know, you've already given me a,..... because I believe Cornelius got saved through Peter's preaching.

You follow Wesley with others on the board.

The Calvinists follow Whitefield.

Mike wrote:
"If any man hear my words." After having spoken concerning his grace, and exhorted his disciples to steady faith, he now begins to strike the rebellious, ......Calvin on John 12:47

As to the verse

47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, (= Point being WHO CAN receive the truth/or not) I judge him not: (= Judging is not the reason in his work here) for I came not to judge the world, but to save (= Saving is the work for now. But HE knows He will not save all, and knows HIS OWN) the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, (= The "rejector" is not one of the elect) and receiveth not (= He "cannot" receive Jesus words) my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. (= Judgment day The Gospel will be the means of conviction of sin)

GG wrote:
What's really interesting and instructive, is that 'Pew View' never mentions his doubts about the other two Churches. I WONDER WHY? 'Pew View' is the typical produce of 500 years of Protestant, knee-jerk prejudice and hate. Perhaps the Govt of Eritrea is afraid of 'Chapping-off' the Lord's True Church? No wonder "Pew View's" view stinks to Heaven.

Mike wrote:
The Atonement is limited to those who believe. The gift is salvation, eternal life. The faithless are faithless because they WILL NOT receive the gift

Honesty wrote:
READ what Calvin ACTUALLY WROTE,

Because you want Calvin to say what is unBiblical. Your predisposed doctrine tinted spectacles have prevailed upon your interpretations. You and I will never agree on this and it is not just about the Calvin quote of Mike's it is because you want to imply the atonement was not limited.

If it was not then ALL mankind would have been saved.
God is not universalist in doctrine.

charles m wrote:
do you think therefore that the sinner can pay his debt to God in hell ? I only ask because if he cannot then is it still neccessary for recompense to be made to God and if so and if not by the sinner then is it scriptural to conclude that this is what is meant by Jesus taking upon Himself the sin of the world ?

The unsaved sinner pays for his own sins by judgment to eternal damnation.

Therefore there is no outstanding debt.

charles m wrote:
so the atonement for the debt of the world can only be done by Jesus since the creature is unable to do it even in hell and yet the debt must be paid.

Rom 5:10 "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement."

See the two words here "reconciled" and "atonement" - well they are both the same Greek word.
Thus if you are reconciled by God you are atoned by Christ, if I can put it that way.

At 2Cor 5:18 Paul teaches that it is God Himself who has reconciled us to Himself. 19. God was IN Christ doing the reconciling.

God as you know owes no man anything.
Those whom HE does not reconcile get their just deserts anyway. They as sinners are guilty as charged. The punishment is hell - a complete separation from God.

The debt is paid then by Christ.
Or
The debt is paid by the sinner.

Honesty wrote:
1] Why are they more damnable for being faithless if Christ did not die for them in the first place?

2] Can you, along with Calvin, say that Christ's blood was a ransom for the souls of those that reject him? That is the question that is being discussed; the extent of the Atonement!

2] NO! From both Calvin and me!
God does not waste atonement upon those HE has condemned to hell and damnation. He has no need to.

LIMITED Atonement is Biblical and obvious.

God Himself applies the blood to the saved and therefore the LIMITED Atonement to the Elect.

John UK wrote:
the atonement was quite sufficient in its merit to atone for not only the whole world

But if He did then that would be unjust and God is not unjust!

1] If God sent Christ to atone for ALL men, then
2] WHY does HE choose-elect only SOME?

The two propostions conflict with one another.
Together they would imply that in the MIND of God HE
a] Ordained salvation for some.
b] Yet created the same atonement potential for both the saved and the reprobate.

God's omniscient wisdom and knowledge elected from the beginning, the few to be saved by His Son's atonement.
There is no justification then to make His Son's blood a potential for the sins - of those who will themselves pay for their own sins.

That would be unrighteous and unjust!
This theory seeks to establish the possibility of paying twice for the same sins. NOT something God would entertain after creating hell and damnation.

This then insists upon a contradiction in the MIND of God.

Mike wrote:
"Now the mean whereby...........Sermons on Galatians, Sermon 2, 1:3-5, p., 39/27

"Now the mean whereby we be made partakers of our Lord Jesus Christ, is our embracing of the
promises of the Gospel by true faith.
For the faithless *[[ That is those who have zero faith]]*
have no profit at all by the death and passion of our Lord Jesus Christ,
*[[ That is they receive zero benefit from the atonement]]*
but rather are so much the more damnable, because they reject the mean *[[ That is the blood of Christ]]* that God had ordained: and their unthankfulness shall be so much the more grievously punished, because they have trodden under foot the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, *[[Thus all the reprobates - whether they go to church or nay - are presented as guilty as charged]]* which was the ransom for their souls."
*[[ IF (R) IF God had chosen to elect them - but clearly He did not]]*
(Calvin, Sermons on Galatians, Sermon 2, 1:3-5, p., 39/27)

The Atonement is therefore LIMITED to those who receive God's Gift of Faith.

John UK wrote:
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
No man or woman (in their unconverted state and rebellion against God, living in darkness and sin) can (is able to) come to me (the Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the world) except (unless) the Father (from whom proceedeth every good and perfect gift) which hath sent me (whose plan it was that I should come into the world) draw him (with that powerful love and grace allocated to each one of those whose names are in the Lamb's Book of Life); and I (Jesus) will raise him up (resurrect him who believed on me, being drawn by the Father and illumined/quickened by the Spirit) at the last day (on the resurrection day, the Day of Judgment, the end of the world).
Even briefer: Many (sinners) are called (in general) but few are chosen (relatively).

Now thats interesting! If you are a Roman Catholic you will not be persecuted and murdered by the communist regime?

Wonder why???

+++++++++++++

"ICC is calling on Christians to remember the victims of persecution and their families in their prayers."

John UK wrote:
I am baffled, it is true, because despite several times posting up a good proof of Christ dying for ALL MEN, no-one has yet explained the verse in a way which reads Christ died for some men

44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

John UK wrote:
context context context

These verses compared to v24ff denote the false people which we are bound to find in the church. They of course, teach another gospel. Basically they are heretics - sheep in wolves fur coats.
It is revealing to note that the Synod of Dordt diagnosed the free willing Arminians as this kind of dangerous heretic.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW them.

And so v21 follows ...
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord Lord...

John UK wrote:
didn't you see yourself in my little sketch the other day? You were responding to Charles UK, a fairly new believer in Christ, and you are not in the slightest concerned about THE MAN, only in bringing him to believe what YOU believe, an extreme form of calvinism called hyper-calvinism. But if you expected him to have the foggiest idea what on earth you were talking about

Jim Lincoln wrote:
Ahem, Election is limited, not atonement.

Candle Lit wrote:
When you call yourself a "Calvinist" you separate yourself from other Believers. Is that your intention?

As a Calvinist I must stick to the Word, Law and Doctrines of Scripture.
Thats what the Reformed Church has been doing for centuries.

God's complete sovereignty over Totally Depraved sinners.

After all Candle lit, God is the Potter.
_____________________

Mike.
Touch`e

Bible only wrote:
I have you PEGGED! Your Rogerant alias nearly had me fooled! You parade around SA as DJC49, pagan understanding, Rogerant, pew view, RR, FTGOG and ? and post to yourself

My guess is that he is the alter ego of John Yurich - or is it John UK. Hmmmmm!!!

BTW I am neither from Canada nor America.

Just one of the REAL Calvinists around here, by the Grace of God.
__________________

John UK wrote:
But this 'faith' is not a new faculty put into man's heart. Rather the original faculties are restored in ability. How can 'faith' be a faculty? That is an absurd thought

Mike wrote:
Arminius was not an "Arminian type Free Willer"

The Roman Catholic, Arminian and other free will religions modify certain verses of Scripture in their effort to proclaim their man-assisted religion of salvation by works.
Note "dead in sins" "enmity with God" "spiritually discerned" all suffer to change sin and upgrade the sinner.

But the Bible says

Rom 5.6 Man has no strength in his natural estate.
Rom 8.7 Sinners are enemies of God, not subject to His laws.
John 15.5 Without Christ man can do zero.
Rom 3.10 No mortal is righteous. None can do good.
Eph 2.1 Only God can quicken/make spiritually alive. Only grace can save.
John 6.44,65 Man is drawn to Chist by God ALONE. Man cannot, CANNOT come of his own volition.
Eph 2.2 The natural sinner follows Satan.
1Cor 2.14 The natural sinner CANNOT even receive the things of God.
Col 1.13 Translation from the power of darkness into GOD's kingdom is by God ALONE.
John 8.34 The natural sinner is SERVANT to sin.

Man's will is NOT free until God free's it from the dominion of sin, iniquity, darkness and Satan.

Psalm 119.133 Order my steps in thy word: and let not any iniquity have dominion over me"

Bible only wrote:
Now listen Pew View, RR or whatever other moniker you choose, don't confuse me with anyone else.

I am from Scotland.

You've got the wrong island.