bornfromabove wrote: â€œNowhere in the entire chapter of John 3 is it stated that being born-again, i.e., born of the Spirit, INCLUDES the indwelling presence of the Holy Spiritâ€¦
Nobody said there was.
What the Bible states is that INDWELLING was the promise of God after the glorification of Jesus.
Before that time as with John 3 - Jesus states the Holy Spirit DWELLS WITH the disciples.
Jn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus WAS NOT YET GLORIFIED)
Jn 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he DWELLETH WITH you, and SHALL BE IN YOU
Dwelleth with - present tense.
Shall be in you - Future tense.
POST PENTECOST::- Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Mike wrote: Ephesians 2:8, in particular 2:8a: 1) Saved by grace 2) Saved through faith 3) Grace precedes salvation. Ye are saved by grace 4) Faith precedes salvation. Ye are saved through faith
It takes much mind-bending to say indwelling is prior to faith
Mike; One wee question for you in relation to the above. - Do consider that faith is a grace of God?
"Grace:- Appropriately, the free unmerited love and favor of God, the spring and source of all the benefits men receive from him."
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.
Who works grace in the lives of the elect? - The Indwelling Holy Spirit.
Eph 2:8 Faith of course is the "gift of God."
Ro 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Ro 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Grace signifies the unmerited operation of God in the heart of man, affected through the agency of the *indwelling* Holy Spirit.
Mike wrote: Again, can one who is born again of the Spirit be in any way unsaved?
Sorry Mike; Iv'e just been trying to answer everybody.
No Mike. Born again and saved are synonymous. John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Mike wrote: Easy out, this Arminian thing. But until the Holy Spirit dwells within, it isn't necessarily permanent to be under his influence. Look again at the life of King Saul. Why did the Holy Spirit depart from him?
"Easy out" Americanism? Do you mean don't use it so much? If you Check out the Arminian ordo salutis you find that faith/repent are put before regeneration/indwell. Thus I see John and Lurker leaning to the Arminian ideology.
The glorification of Christ changed everything. The promise is that post-glorification the Spirit would be poured out at Pentecost Acts2 upon the Church. This is the institution of indwelling which is a permanent state of the elect. King Saul. God uses men who will not be saved for His purposes. NB: Prov 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps"
John UK wrote: My question then, is "Why did the NT saints need to be regenerated before they came to faith?
John What has "need" got to do with the plan and purpose of God? As Jesus Himself points out "dwelleth with" was sufficient prior to His glorification, including during the OT. But in God's plan AFTER Christ's glorification the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost, per Acts 2, AND from then on the Holy Spirit indwelled the church/elect.
Theres no question of "need" in all of this! - There is simply God working in the church and working out His divine plan throughout time.
Pentecost was obviously "on the cards" since it is promised by Scripture and Christ Himself.
John UK wrote: The sealing of the Spirit guarantees the work, and it comes after believing, as per Eph 1:13-14.
Nope! Believing unto salvation is a divine work of the Holy Spirit in the heart of the elect. Born again = Born of the Spirit = Regeneration = comes before faith/repentance. This is the start of a permanent indwelling in the Christian. Eph 1:13,14 Says precisely this alongside the overall context of Scripture. Hearing the Word/call is only by the Spirit.
Thats why the WCF in the way it is worded is Biblically accurate.
John UK wrote: So how did Abraham come to faith, by which he was justified?
Cor blimey John??? I almost don't believe it??? You are not reading the posts are you?
I have just posted this in the post to which you have just responded.... "As for Abraham and the OT saints ~ Remember that Jesus teaches in their days "dwelleth with" - NOT "dwelleth in" Now as I have told you before that does not curtail nor diminish the divine power of the Holy Spirit."
Let me repeat myself for the umpteenth time....
DWELLETH WITH DWELLETH WITH DWELLETH WITH
These are Jesus words... Jn 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he DWELLETH WITH (R) DWELLETH WITH you, and shall be in you.
The "shall be in you" part of the verse is Jesus promise of INDWELLING at Pentecost AFTER His glorification.
The Spirit came down in quote "tongues of fire" and quote "filled" them - Thus the promise to the Church is fulfilled at Pentecost - AND from then on INDWELLING is the way which the Holy Spirit works faith in the Church.
John UK wrote: It was you who said that indwelling was crucial to a sinner coming to faith
No John; I did not say that, but I do think that you are gradually coming round to the sound doctrine of the Reformed.
Remember it was you and Lurker who came up with the strange idea that the Holy Spirit only came to indwell AFTER faith and repentance, which leaves the source of faith hanging in the balance somewhere out there in the ether???
Faith and repentance are the work of the Holy Spirit in the elect.
So first the Holy Spirit comes into the sinner. Second, regeneration happens (thats born again ~ born of the Spirit) and from that point on the Holy Spirit dwells in the temple which is the elect disciple of God.
No need for 'bouncing out' and 'bouncing in' to the temple, as you have implied.
The Holy Spirit is a permanent resident of the sinners heart where He works faith. Faith of course is the gift of God and is not a human faculty.
As for Abraham and the OT saints ~ Remember that Jesus teaches in their days "dwelleth with" - NOT "dwelleth in" Now as I have told you before that does not curtail nor diminish the divine power of the Holy Spirit.
Thus Regeneration IS the beginning of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
John UK wrote: Aha! So Abraham and all the believing OT saints had the Holy Ghost dwelling WITH them, but was not IN them? And because the Holy Ghost was dwelling close by them, they could understand spiritual things, WITHOUT being quickened by the Spirit, or being made regenerate?
Jesus says:- John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he DWELLETH WITH you, and shall be in you.
John UK Says:- "You are wrong Jesus. The Holy Spirit dwelling 'WITH' man doesn't work, doesn't have divine power over sinners and cannot convert them to faith."
Poor John, he still can't quite grasp the Biblical meaning of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and WHY God ordained it this way for His Church post Pentecost.
John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was NOT YET given; because that Jesus was NOT YET glorified.)
NOT YET NOT YET NOT YET
Which in turn identifies a future action!
Pentecost when the Holy Spirit first INDWELLED the Church as promised by Jesus. Halleluia! ====
This has to be down to the Arminian ideology of more power to the elbow of the sinner!!!
John UK wrote: A) So at last you are admitting that it is possible for a sinner to believe and repent WITHOUT being indwelt by the Spirit
B) the Jews on the day of pentecost were quickened but not indwelt, then they repented and were baptised, then they were indwelt
A) Plus B) = Wrong again John!
John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for ***THE HOLY GHOST WAS NOT YET GIVEN;*** because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth (#1) WITH YOU, and (#2) SHALL BE **IN** YOU.
#1. Disciples *now* #2. Disciples *future*
For millennia regeneration and indwelling have been seen as one and the same by the Reformed Church. For millennia the Reformed Church have known and taught that the sinner before regeneration was dead, unable to discern, spiritually blind and the enemy of God. NOT until regenerated (born again) in/by the Holy Spirit could the sinner believe (faith) and be convicted of sin (repent).
I ask again John; What is the name of your religion????????????
John UK wrote: 1. Yes indeed. It is difficult to be filled with something without it being on the inside.
2. I don't know
3. Abraham, a) Was he spiritually dead before he believed? b) Or was he quickened and then believed? c) Was he indwelt by the Spirit when he was quickened
1. Ah revealing!! John does not quite understand what INDWELLING means. # "filled" = EG: See Ex 28:3, 31:3, 35:31.
2. Now thats honest! Ans = "born again" means born of the Spirit, see John 3. # Born of the flesh - old way! No Spirit! # Born of the Spirit - New way! (Regeneration) With Spirit!
3. (a) Of course! (b) Quickened (viz: made alive spiritually) by the Spirit who works faith in the hearts of the elect. (c) No! John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"
John UK wrote: God will not seal you until you believe
Thats works based religion identifying faith as a human faculty.
John UK wrote: press on to Acts 2:38b and answer the question
John How many times do you want me to tell you what the Bible says at this verse and in context. I have already provided the Biblical exposition of the verse in context with ALL of the counsel of God, but you fail to grasp the simplest of truth which the Reformed Christians have been able to see and teach for centuries.
Where do you really stand John? Clearly in the Arminian seat (semi-Roman Catholic) position.
You are seeking to overturn the most obvious and straight forward of verses in Scripture to reject the clear teaching of Scripture.
The promise of Jesus and Scripture is the INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit. John UK rejects this. The promise of Jesus and Scripture is that pre-glorication the Holy Spirit "DWELT-WITH" ~ Post-glorification the Holy Spirit "DWELT-IN." John 7:39. John 14:17. ~ John UK rejects this also.
2Cor 6:16 for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. John UK disagrees with God here! For John 'indwelling' of the Spirit of God simply isn't acceptable, he requires a more 'elastic' approach of the Spirit?? Now you see Him - now you don't??
John UK wrote: Amazing! What kind of man is this? He now wants me to consult the dead and apologise to them for behaving like Catholics
Well! Well! Well! John; Straight to the papal antichrist - How typical of the devout hyper-Weslyan.
You really have immersed yourself in the old by works religious theories haven't you John.
John your dismissing and insulting the Covenanters is of course the position of popery and prelacy (the other side) which they sought to bring to an end.
As someone has posted below the Covenanters suffered for their faith and adherence to 'ALL' of Scripture. Whereas the Roman-Arminian appeals to human resources for their religious philosophies, Traditions and the like. In those formative centuries of the UK, it was Biblical Christianity (Covenanters) versus man-made religions, thence do we find John deep in his affiliation to popery and prelacy.
"The Solemn League and Covenant Cost Scotland blood - cost Scotland tears: But it seal`d Freedoms sacred cause - If thou`rt a slave, indulge thy sneers." (R.Burns)
John UK wrote: Thank you Buchan, for sharing your knowledge and thoughts on this subject. The more I grasp what these folks were attempting to do, the more I see in it popish behaviour, and a desire to dominate
Good grief John You are insulting the Covenanters of Scotland with this historically ignorant insult. MANY of whom died for the cause of Christ.
These courageous Christians had the backbone to try to get government onto a Biblical form, unlike the many whimps in the pew and pulpit of modern times.
Apologise John to the Covenanters who at least tried and succeeded for a short while. By there action ecclesiastical history found out that this was not the way God chose. And we today would not have known this unless courageous Christians such as Puritans and Covenanter tried it.
Or does your Arminian convictions put you on the side of the papal antichrist?
John UK wrote: Does that sound right? Or do you prefer: the Spirit will be poured out on "unbelieving sinners" who currently are not serving the Lord but Satan and self? I think the former
John You ever heard of the "elect" or "election"?
Have you ever read the Bible at Eph 1:4,5.
Do you understand that God has "foreknowledge"?
And remember the ordo salutis of the Reformed Church, which comes from... Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Lurker Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practise to rearrange Scripture!!
Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy"
What you, and John, apparently are alluding to is that the Holy Spirit "missed" some of the elect gathered that day of Pentecost. Actually I believe that God's aim is more accurate than that.
2Cor 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Thes 2:13 (& 14) "... you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth...."
Lurker wrote: 1) 2) Since you saw fit to not say "regenerated BY THE [INDWELLING] SPIRIT", I agree. What do you propose we should do with the order of events Peter recited? 1) repentance, 2) baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for remission of sin, 3) receive the promise of the HS.
2) There has never been any difference in Scripture or in theology to regeneration and indwelling. No Need. One Spirit - One work after Christ's glorification.
Acts 2:38 Has always meant the same to the elect, and to the Church (capital C)
Regeneration - Work of the Spirit. He doesn't go away after that He indwells, He remains in His temple.
1Cor 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. __________
Dicty "DWELL" 1. to live or stay as a permanent resident; reside. 2. to live or continue in a given condition or state: to dwell in happiness."
18th century dictionary - "To remain"
Thus Permanent resident after entry into the elect.
Jim Lincoln wrote: (1) the State and Church should be separate,
(3) The best way to destroy the church is have mixed up in the state
(1) Under God and Bible doctrine no one is separate from the work of evangelism, no individual and no organisation. Scripture does not ban the Christian from working with any group whether political or other in Society. Reality and the mirror of history demonstrates that God does not convert entire nations. BUT THAT should not stop us from trying. At least in the 17th century they tried. God Bless them.
(2) (Dict) "Theonomy - the state of an individual or society that regards its own nature and norms as being in accord with the divine nature" This ideology is a non-starter since all are born sinners. BUT as I said don't allow mortal "groups" of any description prevent the Church from seeking all mankind to unto salvation. It's just not Biblical! Don't apply limitations to God.
(3) You only know this because it was tried and tested in history.
17th century England/Scotland was vastly different to todays corrupt and evil nations run by corrupt and evil reprobates. Why they even elect sodomites in the nation today.