"The Spirit dwells in the believer as the ever-living Spirit of all grace and comfort. All that is really holy and gracious in a child of God is found in the work of the indwelling Spirit. All the holy breathings and desires of the soul, all the longings for God and for conformity to His will and image, all that is lovely and like Jesus in the saint, are the result of this gracious act of the eternal Spirit. The Lord Jesus Himself would direct us to this truth. John 4.14: â€śWhoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.â€ť That this well of water is the indwelling of the Spirit, seems clear from the loth verse: â€śJesus answered and said unto her, If you knew the gift of God,â€ť etc.; that â€śgift of Godâ€ť was the Holy Spirit, alluded to again still more emphatically in ch. 7. 38, 39: â€śHe that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spoke he of the Spirit, which those who believe on him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.â€ť) (O.Winslow)(Puritan Reformer)
John UK wrote: Which is precisely my whole point. Faith in Christ expressed is followed by Christ indwelling
Why John Another jigsaw piece of your new religion.
It is Christ who INDWELLS - not the Holy Spirit.
Where is the Holy Spirit then - on holiday???
Tell me John. Since you clearly do not accept the Holy Spirit and His function and role INDWELLING in the elect, are you a Jehovah's Witness and don't accept the Trinity and the 3rd person of the Trinity?
"But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his SPIRIT THAT DWELLETH IN YOU. Rom 8:11
"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the SPIRIT OF GOD THAT DWELLETH IN YOU? 1Cor 3:16
"That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the HOLY GHOST WHICH DWELLETH IN US. 2Tim 1:14
"Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The SPIRIT THAT DWELLETH IN US lusteth to envy. James 4:5
I guess these verses are not in your version of bible, John!
Mike wrote: I continue desiring to know why you think the Holy Spirit must indwell in order to do a work in a person
Mike. He doesn't as I have said in previous posts. The purpose of INDWELLING is a purpose of GOD brought about in response to the promise of Scripture, and fulfilled at Acts 2 Pentecost.
As Jesus replies to your question... John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)
Note the last line - "THE HOLY GHOST WAS NOT YET GIVEN - [WHY?] = BECAUSE THAT JESUS WAS NOT YET GLORIFIED.
Thus this Pentecost changed the method and role of the Holy Spirit and only AFTER Jesus had been glorified.
John and Lurker refuse to acknowledge this bit of Bible so that they can add a 4th dimension - or 'salvation by sinner' to the doctrine of their new religious theories. They refuse to accept the Pentecost event as any form of change on earth and the role of the Holy Spirit, sadly.
Lurker wrote: 1) I quoted clear and concise scripture.
2) There is no place for God's whole counsel of truth in your systematic theology or your confessions of faith
1) Lurker. Scripture is perfect the problem is your interpretation of it.
2) What you mean by that is, "We don't read the truth and present it within your doctrine and theology."
The TRUTH never changes. When someone such as John Calvin or the Westminster divines were guided into all truth by the Holy Spirit centuries ago, - They came to the same theological expositions as the Reformed Church does today. And thats the Truth.
Your problem with Rom 10:17 (Not v7 as you have posted) - Is that you have separated faith and repentance from the work of God's Spirit.
Please tell me if you consider faith/repentance as a human faculty/ability?
There is no two part work of the Spirit. What the Holy Spirit does is indwell the elect of God. Those who "HEARD" Peter "HEARD" by the power of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise... As GOD records and teaches; They are; DEAD IN SINS AT ENMITY WITH GOD WITHOUT SPIRITUAL DISCERNMENT BLINDED BY SATAN
Now John these are words from Bible which illustrate a barrier which prevents man from salvation AND FAITH.
John UK wrote: when a man is justified he is saved, and that the Spirit himself comes to dwell within that person when he is saved
Oh Look!! Salvation by works. John, the Vatican will be proud of you today. Apparently this guy is even justifying himself before God. Wow he must be sinless. Not even the Arminians justify this early in the game? Must be Wesley's "state of perfection." John must be perfect. Wow!!
Who needs the Crucified Christ and the Holy Spirit??? __________________________
Mike wrote: An indwelt person is saved. Agree or not?
Not necessarily Mike. According to the new religions of Lurker and John - The Spirit may have only popped in for a coffeee and might not stay. BTW methinks you missed my point.
This is getting further and further away from Sovereign God and more and more towards "man save thyself" - (God's busy or whatever).
I'd still like to know what this new religion is called. Pelagian?
"44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." Nope you are wrong there Jesus. Apparently John UK can get there on his own faculty, freewill, works and whats more overcome sin to do so.
John UK wrote: you don't believe in the free offer of the gospel, and you will not accept God's word where it says that HE "now commandeth all men everywhere to repent."
I know John With your help we see the Bible is wrong where it states; "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
Wrong where it teaches "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth"
Also "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded"
Also "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"
And wrong of course "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works"
In your bible God has to wait for man to overcome sin and repent all by himself through the human faculty of faith.
I congratulate you John. You are the most devout hyper-Wesleyan around here.
As for baptism in the Spirit as a second event this is Pentecostal baloney! There is only ONE baptism as the Bible states and that is babies and adults being brought into the Covenant of which the sign is sprinkled water.
Acts 1:5 merely compares Jesus with John - a phrase which John had used. Jesus Baptism of the Spirit is figurative language here for regeneration a much more powerful event from Christ, as opposed to human John.
However if some Baptists on here do think that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost does teach the Lord's views on baptism - I would advise the Baptists to note that the Lord used effusion - not dipping.
The new way was INDWELL which pentecost extended to the whole church; - "dwell with" no longer exists, is no longer needed.
The incredible public spiritual event of God's power in Acts 2 announced the Holy Spirit's NEW role in/for the church and future. There is no need to dwell WITH anymore. Only two "births" are referred to by Jesus. 1. Born of the flesh. 2. Born of the Spirit. (Jn 3:6) There is no intermediate stage, for faith/repentance to "appear". Also The Holy Spirit is the person in the Trinity who works grace in man. Therefore the idea that faith/repent emerge from a fourth dimension to the exclusion of the regenerating Spirit of God is not Biblical. There is no Biblical reason to exclude the Spirit. He enables faith and repentance in the new birth, BORN of the Spirit, regeneration. All in one!!
Rom 10:17 "faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of God." - The ONLY means by which the WORD can become efficacious is by the Holy Spirit. Sinners cannot discern. Being born again (of the Spirit) provides the spiritual guide to receive the truth. John 16:13.
Pentecost per Acts 2 was an incredible supernatural spiritual event. Now He dwells IN the church/elect. HE no longer needs to dwell "with." Faith and repentance come from the work of the Spirit indwelling.
The question then is "How does the Holy Spirit work in man? What does indwelling mean?" To dwell WITH is relatively easy, it seems to imply that the Spirit is stood next to you and is influencing you in a spiritual way by divine power. To INDWELL implies that HE is actually operating inside the person again in a spiritual way. If dwell WITH was adequate why did the Lord change it? We can observe that dwell WITH was limited to certain individuals Whereas INDWELL is about the church worldwide. Therefore the extent of the Spirit's influence has clearly been widened to include the entire church. But also brings into focus that God's work of grace and redemption on earth is being uniquely and effectually accomplished by His Spirit. Why separate faith and repentance from regeneration? Regeneration - Born of the Spirit - surely does it all. Jesus chose to "breathe" the Spirit into His disciples AFTER His glorification. "Dwell with" became the OLD WAY.
Ref John 14:16+17 Jesus here is comforting His disciples. Clearly He predicts indwelling of the Spirit, the last five words prove that. But here Jesus also points to the Spirit dwelling with them now. What is the difference?
The answer I believe, is not in the actual whereabouts of the Holy Spirit but in the promise of Christ in v16,17. The disciples were "aware" of the Holy Spirit. What HIS task was at this time was to help the Apostles and disciples to carry out the will of God whilst Jesus was with them.
The disciples needed the Spirit to provide them with divine help to receive the wisdom of God, receive the incarnation and to be aware of Christ and the Spirit. HE also gave them the grace of divine knowledge to preach the truth.
The fact that the Spirit did not need to be indwelling to do this work is simply confirmation of the power of God over His creatures.
But we have this promise throughout Scriptures that God's people (elect) will be enabled by the power of the Spirit. 1Chron 28:12, 1Sam 10:6,7, Psa 51:11, 139:7. And many more. The Spirit working with, dwelling with God's people is not new.
John. I know that as a devout Arminian you want this verse to say that God 'OWES' the sinner something. I have already taught you in previous posts what this verse teaches. But your hyper-Wesleyan traits require you to think that this verse states that God rewards the sinner for the human faculty (of faith and repentance) by the gift of the Holy Spirit. Now of course we can see in the Arminian ordo salutis that this is what it teaches.
But thats not the 'Whole Counsel' of God - not even some of it. This is the same old RCC fallacy of salvation by works.
Peter here preaching is full of the Spirit. Any who respond in a spiritual way are indwelled by the Holy Spirit already, thus convicted of sin, thus with the gift of Faith can respond in repentance. The Holy Spirit wrought these Gifts of God in their hearts.
Peter is not suggesting that by human faculty sinners can 'persuade' the Lord to give them the Holy Spirit as an advance on their 'earned' wages of good works.
It is the work of the Holy Spirit alone both in Peter and in those who believed.
Matt 7:22 teaches that there are religious folk who are quite convinced of their good works - Jesus however shoots this down in v23. ----- Lurker Later.
Lurker wrote: In this text, both elements of God's work of the new birth are revealed but notice that regeneration is spoken of as "washing" with the indwelling of the HS following
Lurkerism like JohnUKism are works based religions. In Lurkerism above we can see that instead of a "Trinity" we have a "Quadruple" an additional power? person? enters the formula so that the Holy Spirit can be neatly excluded? For theological(?) reasons?
What is this fourth dimension of the Godhead we wonder, which works INDEPENDENTLY of the Holy Spirit? Lurkerism and JohnUKism introduce this fourth element of power to the exclusion of the Holy Spirit, that they can estasblish the Jacob Arminius party philosophy. Thus enabling the sinner to use human faculties as faith and repentance. (With a vague connection to the divine)
Both the OT and the NT teach that God's power amongst His creation and men is the "Spirit of God." JohnUK would also separate the Holy Spirit at Acts 2:38. But ask yourself was it the human faculties of Peter which was preaching that day? Was it the human faculties of faith and repentance in the natural sinner who provided the conviction of sin to repent and believe?
Hey fellas what are you going to call this new religion?
David1960 wrote: In John chapter 20:22 Jesus breathes on the disciples and says receive the Holy Spirit.Then in Acts chapter 1 verses 4-8 He tells them to wait for the Holy Spirit
In John 20:22 Jesus privately "breathes" the Holy Spirit ONLY into His "Apostles/Disciples".
In Acts 2 We see a miraculous public show of spiritual power from God, an incredible and unique event. The Holy Spirit makes an entry into the world in divine power, the power of God and thereby heralds and announces His arrival to the task of REGENERATION (indwell) - IN THE *CHURCH* - as opposed to just the disciples. Thus what in effect has happened is the fulfillment of Christ's promise (post glorification). John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was NOT YET GIVEN; because that Jesus was NOT YET glorified.) NB: John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter WILL NOT COME UNTO YOU; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Note that the Acts 2 Pentecost event is for "THE CHURCH." Acts 2:4 And they were "ALL" FILLED with the Holy Ghost 5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, OUT OF EVERY NATION under heaven.
John UK wrote: (1) Do you seriously expect me to believe that Jesus was referring to his own
(2) those who responded were not yet quickened
(3) the new birth came first, before repentance and faith
(1) You don't really read the posts do you John? This was the response to your own remark on unregenerate people.
(2) You have still NOT responded to the verses I posted. Whats up scared it will shoot down your theories?
(3) Do you believe this part of the Bible John? = "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1Cor 2:14.
John 6:44 *NO MAN CAN* come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 16:13 Howbeit WHEN HE, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:"
Notice the FUTURE TENSE of Jesus words in this verse. Viz *When He" the Spirit - is come. That means it is a promise of a future event. Christ had to be crucified before the Spirit came.
NB The tense in John 15:26. And in 14:17 "dwelleth *WITH* YOU" - Then future tense = "shall be in you"
Again "BORN AGAIN" began at pentecost Acts Chapter two!! NOT before!
John UK wrote: "How can an unregenerate people call Jesus 'Lord', pray to God, and appoint another apostle in place of Judas Iscariot?
Jesus answers that one John; Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
I noticed that you ignored these verses I posted below; JESUS SAID; John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: FOR IF I GO NOT AWAY, THE COMFORTER WILL NOT COME UNTO YOU; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:"
Remember John & Co the Biblical term is "Born again Christian" - NOT "Baptised again Christian."
John 3:6 BORN OF THE SPIRIT.
The Holy Spirit which Christ promised came in power Acts 2 1-4 AFTER Christ had returned to heaven - NOT BEFORE.
ONLY THEN, and since then, could a mortal be born again.