John UK wrote: at what point was the publican justified: before he prayed "God be merciful to me, a sinner" or after
Only the (regenerated) elect can pray in the Spirit. Thus... Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. = with... 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, THEM HE ALSO JUSTIFIED: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
Now what does this have to do with your hyperWesleyan exclamation that the sinner can "repent" prior to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit??
John UK wrote: souls are never saved UNTIL they repent and believe the gospel. THEN they are indwelt by the Spirit
John you are in contravention to the Bible. 1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me YE CAN DO NOTHING". Ro 8:7 Because the CARNAL MIND is enmity AGAINST God: for it is not subject to the law of God, NEITHER INDEED CAN BE" Ro 3:10 As it is written, THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, no, not one: 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were DEAD IN TRESPASSES and sins; John 6:44 NO MAN CAN come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that NO MAN CAN come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Please don't teach people to save themselves John. It doesn't work!!
John UK wrote: expressed a desire to repent of his sins
WCF 9/3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation;a so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,b and dead in sin,c is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.d a. John 15:5; Rom 5:6; 8:7. â€¢ b. Rom 3:10, 12. â€¢ c. Eph 2:1, 5; Col 2:13. â€¢ d. John 6:44, 65; 1 Cor 2:14; Eph 2:2-5; Titus 3:3-5.
1Cor 2:14 But the NATURAL man RECEIVETH NOT the THINGS of the Spirit of God" ... "BECAUSE they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED."
Lurker wrote: discussion with you on just about any topic ... is out of the question
WCF 9/4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin,a and by his grace alone enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;b yet so as that, by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.c a. John 8:34, 36; Col 1:13. â€¢ b. Rom 6:18, 22; Phil 2:13. â€¢ c. Rom 7:15, 18-19, 21, 23; Gal 5:17.
Lurker wrote: why do we disagree on a simple matter of whether indwelling of the HS comes before or after faith?
What on earth are you talking about??? Are you Arminian? - "Salvation by Lurker???" and "Who needs God???"
Faith IS the gift of God to His Elect.
"Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works,"
The elect predestinated::- "Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"
Mike wrote: the one who has been given the Holy Spirit is therefore made willing and able to believe
Mike as I've taught you before "Faith" is the gift of God whereby the Holy Spirit works (Only) in the hearts of believers. Now I realise you're still confounded by the Arminian DIY philosophy.... ______________
And continued from yesterday's teaching... Covenant WCF 7/6. Under the Gospel, when Christ, the substance, was exhibited, the ordinances in which this covenant is dispensed are the preaching of the Word, and the administration of the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord's Supper: which, though fewer in number, and administered with more simplicity, and less outward glory, yet, in them, it is held forth in more fullness, evidence, and spiritual efficacy, to all nations, both Jews and Gentiles; and is called the New Testament. There are not therefore two covenants of grace, differing in substance, but one and the same, under various dispensations. Col 2:17, Mat 28:19, Heb 12:22, Luk 22:20, Gal3:14, Act 15:11, Rom 4:3,6,16,17,23,24, Heb 13:8.
Bottom line Lurker is that the Bible study and research done by the godly people who produced the WCF, is an excellent accurate work which true Christians can receive in truth and faith.
Covenant WCF 7/3. Man by his fall having made himself incapable of life by that covenant, the Lord was pleased to make a second,a commonly called the covenant of grace: wherein he freely offered unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ, requiring of them faith in him that they may be saved,b and promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto life his Holy Spirit, to make them willing and able to believe.c
a. Gen 3:15; Isa 42:6; Rom 3:20-21; 8:3; Gal 3:21. â€¢ b. Mark 16:15-16; John 3:16; Rom 10:6, 9; Gal 3:11. â€¢ c. Ezek 36:26-27; John 6:44-45.
WCF 7/5. This covenant was differently administered in the time of the law and in the time of the gospel:a under the law it was administered by promises, prophecies, sacrifices, circumcision, the paschal lamb, and other types and ordinances delivered to the people of the Jews, all fore-signifying Christ to come,b which were for that time sufficient and efficacious, through the operation of the Spirit, to instruct and build up the elect in faith in the promised Messiah,c by whom they had full remission of sins and eternal salvation; and is called the Old Testament.d
a. 2 Cor 3:6-9. â€¢ b. Rom 4:11; Col 2:11-12; 1 Cor 5:7; Hebrews 8-10 throughout. â€¢ c. John 8:56; 1 Cor 10:1-4; Heb 11:13. â€¢ d. Gal 3:7-9, 14.
Lurker wrote: a) Since you have never offered anything but party line rhetoric
b) "... In sum, both circumcision and baptism signify the previous work of regeneration..."
a) Oooohh My! My! I am terrible ain't I??? If you go to the surveys on baptism you will find that this has all been thrashed out before many times. AND the correct Biblical doctrine of baptism as practiced in the presbyterian church is explained there. Since I have been nattering to my baptists brothers on here for six years..... etc
b) You did notice the word "signify" didn't you? eg...
WCF 28/1. Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ,a not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible Church,b but also to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace,c of his ingrafting into Christ,d *OF REGENERATION,*e of remission of sins,f and of his giving up unto God, through Jesus Christ, to walk in newness of life:g which sacrament is, by Christâ€™s own appointment, to be continued in his Church until the end of the world.h
The ref (e) is to Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Lurker wrote: I am certain that Presbys reject baptismal regeneration, at least by confession
Goodness gracious you poor misguided baptitudinals are not still going on about submerging people are you?
As for baptismal regeneration - try the papists for that junk.
Then there is the church who has built their church on the rock of their definition of "baptizw" - That is the Baptist denomination.
And 'baptism' itself in their denomination must be authenticated with a verbal statement - Arminian style!!
As the Bible firmly and clearly states baptism is for the children of COVENANTED parents as well as those who come to the faith for the first time as adults.
Gen 17:7,9 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed ..... Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Since the year 1521 when the Baptist denomination was started for the first time, they have complained about not enough water and not enough human verbal input into the ceremony.
God commands baptism of Covenanted parents babies:: Gen 17:7,9 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. Gal 3:9,14 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Col 2:11,12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Acts 2:38-39 Rom 4:11-12 Mat 28:19 Mark 10:13-16 Luk 18:15 1Cor 7:14 ... else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
Lurker wrote: Can an infant of eight days old "repent"? For this is part and parcel of the text.... "Repent, and be baptized every one of you...".
Lurker Where did you buy your copy of the Bible?
My copy says quote, "Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
Clearly yours is different and says 38 .... Repent, and be baptized every one of you - And be sure to do both of these at exactly the same time, (otherwise it doesn't work)....
I guess your Bible is the BMV - Baptist modified version -
Now Lurker; you should stop discriminating against the children of Covenanted parents. Don't be mean!!
Reformed Presbyterian wrote: The confusion of language......
Sorry, but Liberal is not the right word though used constantly on this news site; the accurate term would be humanist or one worshiping and serving the creature rather then the Creator.
J Gresham Machen wrote a powerful book called "Christianity and Liberalism." Others have also warned people against this satanic attack upon the church. For example [URL=http://www.monergism.com/directory/search.php?action=search_links_simple&search_kind=and&phrase=Liberalism&B1.x=49&B1.y=23]]]Liberalism[/URL]
See also = [URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Christianity]]]Liberal Christianity[/URL]
Many of the failing denominations eg Anglican, Episcopalian, PC(USA) who have gone over to sodomites in the pulpit are Liberal churches.
"It will be argued below that it was the Calvinists who first switched the emphasis of political thought from the prince to the saint (or band of saints) and then constructed a theoretical justification for independent political action." Michael Walzer
""Democracy" is not a term in favor with Calvin. He does not advocate democracy in and of itself: he fears its deterioration into anarchy. Nevertheless, his notion of "aristocracy tempered by democracy" approaches our conception of representative democracy. It becomes unmistakably clear in his later writings that the ideal basis of government is election by the citizens." John T McNeill
"Beyond the shadow of a doubt, the elders really represent the Church, which delegates to them its sovereignty. The theory of the representative system is really a Calvinist theory." Emile Doumergue
"Even if one gives to the role of the community in the Calvinist Church its largest sense, and even if one neglects the important restrictions on it stipulated by Calvin, one still searches in vain for any new principles this conception would bring to republican Geneva." Georges De Lagarde
"Calvinist political thought helped more than any other tendency of the time to prevent a full victory of absolutism, and to prepare the way for constitutional and even republican ideas." Hans Baron
[URL=http://vftonline.org/VFTfiles/thesis/commentators/Calvin/extremes.htm]]]Sources of Democracy[/URL]
Mike wrote: Is there biblical direction, command, etc. to avoid being involved in governing? Surely there must be an exclusionary verse somewhere. Or do we merely make this stuff up to excuse indifference?
But Mike; Democracy was invented by Calvinist Presbyterians prior to that the nations were led by monarchies. So the modern method of government by elected officials, was founded by the presbyterian method of church government laid down by Paul.
1Tim 5:17 Let the elders (PRESBUTEROS)that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. Titus 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders (PRESBUTEROS) in every city, as I had appointed thee"
BTW You Baptists have followed our lead on this haven't you?
SteveR wrote: In context, that warning from John is against those who become spiritually yoked with those that deny Jesus is the Christ. While this is a gross error on the part of the PCUSA, they do not deny the divinity of Christ.
Jesus said "18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
PCUSA is in disagreement with Jesus.
They have effectively removed the word as indeed Rom 1:18-32 points out.
They are denying Christ as the Son of God by rejecting His Word, law and doctrine.
The Roman Catholics proclaim that they agree with 2.John too - But they rejected the Bible and Christ centuries ago.