Lurker wrote:
[1] A prooftext is scripture which explicitly teaches what is asserted;

[2] 1) repentance, 2) baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for remission of sin, 3) receive the promise of the HS

2) This is the same old heresy of works based - God owes the sinner - popish - Arminian etc etc ......

Lurker; God does not REWARD any mortal at any time in existance for spiritual acts which HE Himself provides in His providence for the road to salvation.

God has elected His people before the world began. God foreknows His elect. The promise of the Holy Spirit is for them - NOT BECAUSE THEY **DO** SOMETHING - but because it is God's promise, which HE knew beforehand and ordained who would receive.

The only people in history who apply your principles on this, are works based religions such as Popes and Arminians etc.

Buchan wrote:
A real alternative was the 1644 Baptist Confession of Faith.

Lurker wrote:
no prooftexts.

Here is the simplest verse which describes the two methods of the Holy Spirit.
Jn 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Jesus words
Holy Spirit method #(1) "dwelleth with"
Holy Spirit method #(2) "shall be in you" (indwelling)

The promise of Jesus fulfilled at Pentecost as described at Acts 2.

Remember as I have stated before many times there is only two ways described by Jesus of being born into existence...
Jn 3:6 That which is (1) born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is (2) born of the Spirit is spirit.
Again #(2) Is indwelling.
You are either in the flesh
Or you are in the Spirit.

Flesh remember is Dead, Spiritually blind, Enmity with God, Blinded by Satan.

Spirit is - Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
= Oh look one of the FRUITS of the indwelling Spirit IS FAITH!

John UK wrote:
Sure, at least two, maybe a multitude. How else:

When He is NOT indwelling how do the elect walk and pray in the Spirit?
Or is this one of your hyper Wesleyan tricks of human faculties/abilities, being equal to divine power?

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
~ Does this mean we are sometimes NOT of Christ?

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
~ Does this mean that when the Spirit is not indwelling that we are dead again in the flesh?

Lurker wrote:
Then there sould be no problem producing just one biblical prooftext to establish WCF 7/3c.

John UK wrote:
None are arguing for an ability to believe savingly or receive Christ without the mighty working of the Spirit, convicting of sin, and drawing to Christ.

What is your "middle way" between the believing and conviction - AND - indwelling of the Spirit?

Do you advocate TWO visits of the Spirit?

Lurker wrote:
I read this much praised Solemn League and Covenant last night for the first time.
....
If God was behind its enactment, surely it would have stood the test of time

We all know your abhorence of all that has been recorded and written in ecclesiastical history by Christians for example the WCF.

Quote
"To study a Christ honoring pattern for the state (which is agreeable to the Word of God) please look into the Solemn League and Covenant and the
covenanted Reformation of the seventeenth century. The National
Covenant of Scotland, which preceded the SL&C is also another faithful civil (and ecclesiastical) pattern. Compare these God honoring covenants (which the lawful civil authorities of the day swore before God to uphold,
*nationally and internationally between the three covenanting nations*) with the godless U.S. Constitution and then tell me who it was that was truly "intensely religious." (R.Barrow SWRB)

John UK wrote:
Think

Lurker wrote:
Of course you 'may'!

I can read all those verses you have quoted and still see clearly that faith IS THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT from regeneration onwards.

The WCF is Biblical in all of its confessions. Fact!!

On both of these points I agree with the Church's greatest theologians, such as Calvin, Puritans, Whitefield, Spurgeon, Westminster divines - And of course the Word of God, by the power of the Holy Spirit Himself.

Lurker wrote:
Isn't it interesting, John, how the subtleties of so many texts shine through clearly when they are perceived through the lens of the organic whole of scripture?

Lurker wrote:
sparring

"Saving faith is the work of the Spirit.

"A spiritual faith must be imparted before the Word is made, in a spiritual way, its foundation and warrant.

John UK wrote:
so let us put this regeneration together with faith occurring simultaneously, and have no more of this "born again for five years before the man came to faith

Regeneration IS BORN AGAIN.

Regeneration is born of the Spirit.

The INDWELLING of the Spirit.

As I have been saying all along to you and Lurker, Regeneration - Born of the Spirit - "IS" Indwelling - and when that occurs the Holy Spirit WORKS FAITH in the heart of the elect.

Thus the WCF is correct.
You said it was wrong!

WCF 7/3. Man by his fall having made himself incapable of life by that covenant, the Lord was pleased to make a second,a commonly called the covenant of grace: wherein he freely offered unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ, requiring of them faith in him that they may be saved,b and promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto life his Holy Spirit, TO MAKE THEM WILLING AND ABLE TO BELIEVE."

"Indwelling" is what Jesus promised AFTER His glorification AND what happened at Pentecost (Acts.2) AND how it works in the elect today!

As Jesus pointed out - there is only two ways "dwell with" and "dwell in"

Lurker wrote:
The HS does not work independent of the gospel

Are you, like John, an Arminian and believe it to be a faculty and work of man. Or is there some other means by which faith emerges in man which you believe and have not revealed to us yet?

__________

As for your Scripture refs; Lets take just one.

Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

What Peter is saying here is that the Gentiles(v7) received from God His Spirit.

What YOU are then implying is that Peter was able to convince the Gentiles without divine help to hear the Word of God.
Therefore what YOU are teaching is that the "dead in sin," "enemies of God," "unable to spiritually discern," "blinded by Satan" Gentiles - were somehow capable of overcoming sin and convicting themselves of sin to receive spiritual instruction to proceed unto salvation.

Lurker wrote:
However, you have yet to demonstrate that the HS only works repentance and faith after indwelling. Book, chapter and verse, please.

Lurker wrote:
Calvin had this to say about Gal 3:23:
"Faith denotes the full revelation of those things which

Clearly from this verse we are taught that the faith which came with Jesus was greater light than the OT, variation.
Just as clearly the faith which is wrought by the Holy Spirit is a greater light for the NT church.

"John Calvin proves especially helpful in defining faith: "Now we shall have a proper definition of faith if we say it is a steady and certain knowledge of the Divine benevolence toward us, which being founded upon the truth of the gratuitous promise in Christ is both revealed to our minds and sealed in our hearts by the Holy Spirit" (Calvin Inst 3:2:7)

Notice again the involvement of the Holy Spirit. Before the glorification of Christ the Holy Spirit "dwells with" - This does not "curtail" divine power.

After the glorification of Christ and the Pentecost, the Spirit became "indwelling" in the purpose of God, and provides Spirit empowered faith in the heart of the elect.

NO Spirit - NO faith!

Lurker wrote:
The text isn't speaking of individual faith

Faith is the work of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of the elect, (all of them).

Lurker wrote:
Hbr 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

As for Heb 10:36 Again this is not teaching quote; "God will reward you for works done" - That is never the precept, doctrine or teaching of faith anywhere in Scripture. Similarly Peter teaches 1Pet 1:9 "Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls." But this is NOT faith a human effort - It does describe the complete process of salvation a work of the Holy Spirit - in the sinner who is dead until made alive by the Spirit, unable to discern anything spiritually and the very enemy of God. Even "Perseverance" (TULIP) is a work of God's Spirit, therefore a work of God and Christ by the Spirit.

Lurker wrote:
"THE PROMISE by faith of Jesus Christ MIGHT BE GIVEN TO THEM THAT BELIEVE"
The promise of Christ, Abraham's seed, is given to believers, not unbelievers.

However "might be given" - Is ONE Greek word a verb in the aorist tense.

"The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations." (NET Bible)

Thus if the promise was in existance BEFORE FAITH::-
v23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Then they received the promise of salvation prior to faith. Which means the WCF is correct.

John UK wrote:
Oh yes? Tell me then how Lazarus was raised?

I'm sure that Lazarus was as good a Christian before and after.

And this does not contradict nor negate what Jesus said in John 3:6, (except perhaps in your new religious theory).
Jn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Again I ask you John to explain your three part;
1. Born of the flesh.
2. Born a little bit able to do spiritual bits.
3. Born of the Spirit. (Regeneration)

Where do you get this middle birth from, John??

BTW
How does your neo-religious theories explain...
Jn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
And.
1Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Do you contradict the Lord here too?

_______________

John UK wrote:
Acts 5:30-32 KJV
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
Ooer.
What's this Peter? Salvation by DIY, works, no divine input, arminist, catholic, John & Lurker special religionist, etc. blah blah blah

1. Regeneration
2. Renewing of the Holy Spirit

1. Regeneration means born again. That means born of the Spirit.
2. There is a requirement for the sinner to be renewed.

Born again = Two "borns" in John 3:6 -
1. Born of the flesh.
2. Born of the Spirit.

Note there is NO inbetween birth.
Just ONE ACT of the Spirit.

In the flesh :-
1. Dead in sin.
2. Unable to spiritually discern.
3. At enmity with God.
4. Blinded by Satan.

Note Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that YE CANNOT DO THE THINGS THAT YOU WOULD.

2Cor 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but WITH THE SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, *AFTER* THAT THE HOLY GHOST IS COME UPON YOU: and ye shall be witnesses

"The bare letter of the NT will no more ingenerate faith in the souls of men than the letter of the OT." (J.Owen)

"As to the agent of it -- (1.) That the sole agent of it is the Holy Ghost, who uses (2.) The revealed truth of the gospel as his instrument; (3.) That the subjects of it, while they have freely resisted all those common influences of the Holy Ghost which they have experienced before regeneration, are entirely passive with respect to that special act of the Spirit it whereby they are regenerated; nevertheless, in consequence of the change wrought in them in regeneration, they obey the call, and subsequently more or less perfectly co-operate with grace.

(1.) from what the Scriptures teach concerning man's state by nature as a state of spiritual death, blindness, insensibility, and absolute inability with respect to all action spiritually good.
(2.) The Scriptures distinguish between the Spirit's influence and that of the Word alone. 1 Cor. ii. 14, 15; iii. 6; 1 Thess. i. 5, 6.
(3.) A spiritual influence is declared to be necessary to dispose and enable men to receive the truth. John vi. 45; Acts xvi. 14; Eph. i. 17
(7.) The Scriptures explicitly distinguish between the two calls.
"Many are called, but few are chosen."
"Whom he called, them he also justified."
(A.A.Hodge)

John UK wrote:
I tell you what, if Christ is not IN you, you have no hope of glory

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

John I think it only fair that you reveal this new religion you are patching together here. Is it called "SalWorks" - How to save yourself without divine input?