Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost and prophesied, saying,.... 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember HIS HOLY COVENANT;... 76 And thou, child,(John the Baptist) shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins"
"We cannot escape the inference that the redemptive accomplishment signalized by the coming of Christ found its historical prototype in the redemption from Egypt. In Zacharias‚Äô esteem it is the same fidelity to covenant promise and oath that is exemplified in the accomplishment of redemption through Christ and in the redemption from Egypt by the hand of Moses and Aaron. This indicates that the undergirding principle of the thought of pious Israelites at this time was the unity and continuity of God‚Äôs covenant revelation and action, a principle which came to spontaneous expression in the thanksgiving of Zacharias and bears the imprimatur of the Holy Spirit. It was by inspiration that Zacharias spoke, for we are told that he ‚Äėwas filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied‚Äô" (Lk.1.67) (John Murray)
Lurker wrote: 1. Who told John that circumcision was superceded by baptism and where do we find it in the bible?
2. So Abraham's physical seed inherited real estate and Christians inherit eternal life?
3. Read Hebrews 11
1. Who provided John with any of the doctrine, teachings and revelations which he obviously and uniquely received amongst the Jewish nation of his day, who knew nothing of these things.
2. Abraham and the elect were saved. "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" Rom 9:6. And Lets not forget election. "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" Rom 9:21.
3. I have many times. "Christ's finished work" - Makes ALL the difference to Abraham and all the OT saints just as it affects in the same way all the NT saints over the last 2000 years. Jesus Saved the OT saints. And Jesus saved all the elect since time began.
The Covenant of Grace has been in existence since Abraham was alive. This Covenant remains extant today! Parts have been amended and modified, eg circumcision has been changed to baptism as the sign and seal. But the Covenant has not been replaced at any time in history and is still in force by the grace of God.
Lurker wrote: 1. how do you explain Paul saying "if ye be circumcised....
2. promised land.... "everlasting possession"
3. Was Israel's possession of the land everlasting?
4. Do you, being the seed of Abraham, have .... real estate in Palestine?
1. Clearly Paul is talking about the move from circumcision as OT sign/seal - to NT Baptism. Thus circumcision does not 'profit' (Christ see verse) under the new precepts. In Gal 5:3 he says that this relates to the law thus is part of the old covenantal precepts, now changed by Christ's teachings. 2. Israel's land everlasting - ? Well I could say they are back now arn't they?? But also the Diaspora was a punishment but eventually they are returned and history still continues... 3. "Watch this space" one might say of Israel - the place! 4. I am "spiritual seed" not physical. ---------
BTW In your next post you ask about John the Baptist re "Which covenant did John's baptism enjoin those he baptised into?" = My answer the same one! This is where we are differing in that my position is - The Covenant of Grace began with Abraham Genesis 17 and is everlasting" Thus John the Baptist was in the same Covenant as we are - and Abraham et al was ..... The Cov't of Grace didn't stop.
John UK wrote: So to include any in the covenant by virtue of their having godly parents, is nonsensical, UNLESS you believe that God includes in the covenant all the offspring of believers.
John; Thats a Baptist conclusion. Not a Presbyterian one!
Gen 17:7 And I WILL ESTABLISH my covenant between me and thee AND THY SEED after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee."
God established His Covenant with Abraham and his children; - BOTH physical and spiritual.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith." And see also v16.
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children..."
John UK wrote: please can you tell me what the "covenant" is designed to be or achieve?
John; [URL=http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc07.html]]]Baptist 1689 Confession Ch. 7 v2[/URL] "Moreover, man having brought himself under the curse of the law by his fall, it pleased the Lord to make a covenant of grace, wherein he freely offereth unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ, requiring of them faith in him, that they may be saved; and promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto eternal life, his Holy Spirit, to make them willing and able to believe."
[URL=http://www.apuritansmind.com/westminster-standards/chapter-7/]]]Westminster Conf. ch 7 v3[/URL] "Man by his fall having made himself incapable of life by that covenant, the Lord was pleased to make a second,a commonly called the covenant of grace: wherein he freely offered unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ, requiring of them faith in him that they may be saved, and promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto life his Holy Spirit, to make them willing and able to believe."
As you can see not a great deal of difference here. The Baptist Conf. has only 3 verses. Whereas the WCF has 6. The difference is then in the detail.
"The children of members of the covenant are in the covenant, and they therefore are also entitled to the seals of the covenant. Their inclusion in the covenant is evident in Genesis 17:7, ‚ÄúAnd I shall establish My covenant between Me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations.‚ÄĚ This was not only true in the Old but also in the New Testament, for believers from among the Gentiles also are Abraham‚Äôs seed and are thus included in that covenant. ‚Äú‚Ä¶that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised‚ÄĚ (Rom. 4:11). Peter also confirms this: ‚ÄúYe are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed‚ÄĚ (Acts 3:25). Add to this 1 Corinthians 7:14, where we read, ‚Äú‚Ä¶else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.‚ÄĚ They do not have internal holiness, as has been proven in the above; rather, they are called holy because one of the parents is a believer, thereby being in the covenant. The holiness of such children is therefore a covenantal holiness. An external covenant does not exist, for there is but one covenant between God and believers: the covenant of grace." (Dr. Wilhelmus a‚ÄôBrakel)
Circumcision and Baptism are sign and seal of the same 'everlasting' (God's word) Covenant of Grace established in Genesis 17 between God and Abraham.
"Therefore, although the use of circumcision has ceased; yet it does not cease to be an everlasting, or perpetual covenant, if only Christ be regarded as the Mediator; who, though the sign be changed, has confirmed the truth. And that, by the coming of Christ, external circumcision ceased, is plain from the words of Paul; who not only teaches that we are circumcised by the death of Christ spiritually, and not through the carnal sign: but who expressly substitutes baptism for circumcision; (Colossians 2:11) and truly baptism could not succeed circumcision, without taking it away. Therefore in the next chapter he denies that there is any difference between circumcision and uncircumcision; because, at that time, the thing was indifferent, and of no importance." (John Calvin)
"The Anabaptists attacked God‚Äôs truth by teaching a carnal covenant in the Old Testament and a childless covenant in the New Testament. The latter is true of all Baptists and the former of, at least, many Baptists in our own day." (Rev A.Stewart)
Genesis 17:7-14: "Here is, The continuance of the covenant, intimated in three things:-1. It is established; not to be altered nor revoked. It is fixed, it is ratified, it is made as firm as the divine power and truth can make it. 2. It is entailed; it is a covenant, not with Abraham only (then it would die with him), but with his seed after him, not only his seed after the flesh, but his spiritual seed. 3. It is everlasting in the evangelical sense and meaning of it. The covenant of grace is everlasting. It is from everlasting in the counsels of it, and to everlasting in the consequences of it; and the external administration of it is transmitted with the seal of it to the seed of believers, and the internal administration of it by the Spirit of Christ's seed in every age.
"Circumcision was a bloody ordinance; for all things by the law were purged with blood, Heb. 9:22. See Ex. 24:8. But, the blood of Christ being shed, all bloody ordinances are now abolished; circumcision therefore GIVES WAY TO BAPTISM. (2.) It was peculiar to the males, though the women were also included in the covenant, for the man is the head of the woman." (Matthew Henry)
Question raised; "why were gentile believers forbidden to be circumcised?"
Goodness gracious Lurker I gave you more credit for common sense than to entertain a question like that.
Circumcision as you know was the OT sign and seal of God's Covenant. Baptism as you know took over as the NT sign and seal.
Circumcision in OT times was also used on Gentiles who joined the Jewish community as God commanded. eg Ex 12:48. So whether Jew or Gentile in the OT times God commanded and would ONLY accept a person and family IF they were circumcised, to partake of His Covenant people. That is how important the sign and seal is to God even today as baptism. Josh 5:2-9 illustrates how vital this is to God. In these verses Joshua leading the people and getting prepared for battle, is commanded by God to first circumcise them since in the wilderness the people were apostate and didn't circumcise their children. Without circumcision the very Covenant itself is made null and void. And remember that God did ordain this Covenant to be everlasting. Gen 17:7.
You cannot just ditch bits of Scripture just because they don't agree with the Anabaptist philosophy of 1521.
John UK wrote: How do you determine who are covenanted believers, that you might baptise their children? 2. The words "AND THY SEED", how do you understand this?
"For Calvin, the covenant promise to be our God, applies not only to us in body and soul and in this world and the next, but it also applies to our (elect) children. Jehovah declares, "‚ÄėI shall be the God of your seed after you‚Äô [Gen. 17:7 p.]," for He shows His covenant "beneficence" and "mercy" "‚Äėto a thousand generations‚Äô [Ex. 20:6]," according to the promise of the second commandment (2.10.9, pp. 435, 436).(2) Calvin calls Genesis 17:7 "the solemn covenant of the church," and declares, "this blessing [is] promised in the covenant, that God‚Äôs grace shall everlastingly abide in the families of the pious" (2.8.21, p. 387)."
(2)"The Anabaptists attacked God‚Äôs truth by teaching a carnal covenant in the Old Testament and a childless covenant in the New Testament. The latter is true of all Baptists and the former of, at least, many Baptists in our own day."
"Even in the Old Testament, God‚Äôs covenant promise for body and soul, for time and eternity and for us and our children, was through Jesus Christ, the mediator." (Rev Angus Stewart)
God in Scripture states 10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. 12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. 13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
Ro 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham
John UK wrote: So how do adult converts get to be baptised in your church? Interview?
No! John; Thats just not good enough.
The Presby Church does not put all of its eggs in one basket like the Baptist Church does. We Do not trust completely and absolutely in a verbal statement by a sinner. And we prove this by baptising the children of Covenanted believers just as God has ordained in Genesis 17.
Look at God's doctrine, law and promise to Abraham... "7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee AND THY SEED after thee in their generations for an EVERLASTING COVENANT, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee."
God and Scripture has never rescinded nor revoked this Covenantal promise.
Peter REPEATED this promise in Acts 2 "39 For the promise is unto you, AND TO YOUR CHILDREN, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."
Oh John. Again you fall into the old Arminian trap of looking in the first instance to see what man can do - without God's help. This must be the reason why you will not receive the Biblical doctrines of Total Depravity and Limited Atonement?
I guess this is why the Baptist way is so appealing to the Arminian philosophy.
"Faith is, indeed, ordinarily, and in the case of all who are capable of it, the medium or instrument through which these indispensable blessings are conveyed; and there is certainly much better scriptural evidence in support of the necessity of faith in order to being saved, than in support of the necessity of a profession of faith in order to being baptized. But yet it is quite certain, that faith is not universally necessary in order to a right to these blessings, or to the actual possession of them. It is universally admitted that infants, though incapable of faith, are capable of salvation, and are actually saved; and they cannot be saved unless they be justified and regenerated. And since it is thus certain that infants actually receive the very blessings which baptism signifies and represents, without the presence of the faith which is necessary to the possession of these blessings in adults,‚ÄĒ while yet the Scripture has much more explicitly connected faith and salvation than it has ever connected faith and baptism,‚ÄĒ there can be no serious difficulty in the idea of their admissibility to the outward sign and seal of these blessings, without a previous profession of faith" (Dr W.Cunningham)
John I notice that as Baptist you cut out the OT from Baptism doctrine. Also that you cancel out the Covenant of God from your baptism ideology. Then there is our previous discussion where you were not too happy with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
So Your cutting out the Holy Spirit from baptism is not too much of a surprise. BUT Do you really want to go there??
Here is some Biblical instruction for you from the WCF... 28/6. The efficacy of baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered; yet, notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited and conferred by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongeth unto, according to the counsel of God‚Äôs own will, in his appointed time.
John 3:5, 8. ‚ÄĘ Acts 2:38, 41; Gal 3:27; Eph 5:25-26; Titus 3:5.
"Baptism with water is emblematical of baptism by the Holy Ghost, the object of which is spiritual purification. Matt. iii. 11; Mark i. 8; Luke iii. 16; John i. 26, 33; Acts i. 5; xi. 16. Spiritual baptism is called "the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost." Tit. iii. 5. Baptism with water symbolizes baptism by the Holy Ghost. But baptism by the Holy Ghost unites us to Christ, and makes us one with him in his death, in his resurrection, in his new life unto God, his righteousness, his inheritance, etc., etc. Spiritual baptism carries all these consequences, and water baptism represents spiritual baptism; therefore we are said to be baptized into Christ, into his death, into one body -- to be buried with him, to rise with him, so as to walk with him in newness of life -- to put on Christ (as a garment), to be planted together with him (as a tree), etc. None of these have anything to do with the mode of baptism because it is simply absurd to suppose that the same action can at the same time symbolize things so different as burial, putting on clothes, and planting trees. The real order is: washing with water represents washing of the Spirit; washing of the Spirit unites to Christ; union with Christ involves all the consequences above mentioned." (A.A.Hodge)
WCF 28/3. Dipping of the person into the water is not necessary; but baptism is rightly administered by pouring or sprinkling water upon the person.
Mark 7:4; Acts 2:41; 16:33; Heb 9:10, 19-22.
Sermonaudio Sermon:- [URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=319081853430]]]Why do we Sprinkle rather than immerse[/URL]
"Baptism of the Holy Ghost, of which water baptism is the emblem, is never set forth in Scripture as an "immersion," but always as a " pouring" and " sprinkling." Acts ii. 1 -- 4, 32, 33; x. 44 -- 48; xi. 15, 16. Of the gift of the Holy Ghost it is said, he " came from heaven," was " poured out," " shed forth," " fell on them." Isa. xliv. 3: " I will pour my Spirit upon thy seed." Isa. lii. 15: " So shall he sprinkle many nations." Ezek. xxxvi. 25 -- 27: "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean," etc. Joel ii. 28, 29: " I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh."
(8.) The universally prevalent manner of effecting the rite of purification among the Jews -- from the analogy of which Christian Baptism was taken -- was by sprinkling, and not by immersion. The hands and feet of the priests were to be washed at the brazen laver, from which water poured out through spouts or cocks. Ex. xxx. 18 -- 21".... (A.A.Hodge)
"Baptw [bap‚Äô-to], used in these scriptures, Luke xvi. 24, John xiii. 26, Rev. xix. 13, we translate ‚Äúto dip.‚ÄĚ It is only ‚Äúto touch one part of the body.‚ÄĚ That of Rev. xix. 13 is better rendered, ‚Äústained by sprinkling.‚ÄĚ
In other authors it is ‚Äútingo, immergo, lavo,‚ÄĚ or ‚Äúabluo;‚ÄĚ but in no other author ever signifies ‚Äúto dip,‚ÄĚ but only in order to washing, or as the means of washing. It is nowhere used with respect unto the ordinance of baptism.
The Hebrew word, [taw-bal'], is rendered by the LXX, Gen. xxxvii. 31, by molunw [mol-oo‚Äô-no], ‚Äúto stain by sprinkling‚ÄĚ or otherwise; mostly by baptw. 2 Kings v. 14 they render it by baptizw [bap-tid‚Äô-zo], and nowhere else. In verse 10, Elisha commands Naaman ‚Äúto wash;‚ÄĚ therefore that in verse 14 is that ‚Äúhe washed.‚ÄĚ Exod. xii. 22 is, to put of the hyssop into blood, to sprinkle it; 1 Sam. xiv. 27, is to take a little honey with the top of a rod. In neither place can dipping or plunging be intended. Lev. iv. 6, 17, ix. 9, and in other places, it is only to touch the blood, so as to sprinkle it." (John Owen, Puritan) (And all Puritans agreed)
C. H. Spurgeon in the 19th century said of John Owen, ‚ÄúIt is unnecessary to say that he is the prince of divines. To master his works is to be a profound theologian.‚ÄĚ