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Breaking News Home | All | Religion | Society | Tech | Choice | Fridays | SA Newsroom
FRONT PAGE  |  9/23/2018
SUNDAY, FEB 25, 2018  |  84 comments
Archbishop of Canterbury says Church of England has 'dealt with' Meghan Markle's divorce
The Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby has said that Meghan Markle's divorce is something the Church of England has 'dealt with' in the same way that it would with any other couple.

Speaking as he prepares to officiate at Meghan's wedding to Prince Harry in May, Archbishop Welby was asked whether her previous marriage was an issue.

In 2002, the Church of England agreed that divorced people could remarry in church, with the discretion of the priest.

Markle married Trevor Engelson, an American film producer, in 2011. They filed for divorce in 2013, citing 'irreconcilable differences'. ...


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News Item3/8/18 4:17 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
James Thomas wrote:
Hey John allow me to catch up before I head out.
I suppose they could in ignorance. But knowing is half the battle.
I read a little further in Jereimaih where the two evils are spoken of. It seems as though those two evils are described as the adultery down below here.
Jeremiah 3:9
9And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
In darkness their whoredom was hid. But light was shed on the truth that the stones were their greatest love and their stocks were the means to demonstrate that as described in Jer 2:13.

What was the light which revealed?
Was it the word of God spoken through his prophet Jeremiah, St James?
84

News Item3/7/18 11:39 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
cv wrote:
You might see it differently, so be it.
Thanks for your kind reply, CV.

I think we can agree that many churches are growing increasingly cold and distant from the truth on many fronts. Makes one wonder if we aren't living in the days of the great falling away Paul spoke of.

Blessings to you and yours, CV. I trust things are well for you down under in Oz.

83

News Item3/7/18 10:41 PM
cv  Find all comments by cv
Lurker
My beloved brother in the Lord.

I never got a chance to state my personal position because... we needed to got to the truth first.

The Holy Spirit records or us the words of Jesus in the bible
Jesus said something. That something was at odds with what the church preaches. The church preaches what appears as out of compassion and mercy.

Problem is, that's not what Jesus said. I know two things for sure. 1) ALL the appearance of mercy the church holds collectively doesn't amount to a hill of beans in front of a loving God. 2) I cannot question Gods wisdom.

When Jesus came, he said no divorce! If you see it differently, so be it. But that's where the church needed to start. Not a place to thump people, and not a place to unscramble what had been done. Because nobody can make it! The only thing for the church to do in declaring Gods truth, was to look for grace and mercy at the foot of the cross.

Its not about divorce. I don't want to change Gods word. I want to start with the truth and rely on his mercy and grace. I don't need a loving church to help God out

You might see it differently, so be it.

82

News Item3/7/18 7:44 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Kev wrote:
Thanks Lurker I would agree with what you said. There is also 1 Cor 7 which should be taken into account as well. The whole chapter is on divorce and marriage and has some answers to new converts as well when it pertains to marriage. There is a lot more to it but I see that a person who was the victim of adultry is free from his wife to marry. I don’t have much desire to go on about this topic.
Maybe cv would like to discuss it more with someone.
I think you've got it Kev.

. . .

CV,

I want to apologize for suggesting you had an agenda. Truth be know, I really didn't understand your posts.

But I believe it safe to say that God's intent has always been one man, one woman for life. And if there is infidelity, I believe God wants reconciliation, just as He graciously and mercifully received back a repentant remnant of His adulterous wife Israel, rather than divorce.

But reconciliation isn't always possible and in those instances, just as God cast off forever the unrepentant of Israel, so too divorce is the only remedy and remarriage accepted.

Blessings to you, brother whether we agree or not.

81

News Item3/7/18 7:41 PM
cv  Find all comments by cv
Kev wrote:
Matthew 19:9
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Here it is same words just reordered. I think this is pretty clear:
Whosoever shall put away his wife and shall marry another committeth adultry except for fornication.

Agree.

Kev wrote:
The whosoever shall marry her who is put away is addressing that...she is still bound to her husband as whoever marries her commits adultry. The husband in the example is not an adulterer..
Where are you getting this from, "The innocent party is free to Marry and is not an adultery"?

In Mt19, the mans remarriage is adulterous because it was not on grounds of fornication. From this divorce, the woman's remarriage is adulterous. (Jesus goes further- the man is guilty for causing this.)

What you've done is disconnected the two parts and said, if the woman's marriage is adulterous, then she must have done something and the man is innocent.

80

News Item3/7/18 6:24 PM
Kev | US  Find all comments by Kev
Lurker wrote:
There are two elements to the discussion that should be discussed separately: Divorce and remarriage.
Drawing from memory about the verses under discussion; the Jews ask Jesus if a man could divorce for any reason. He answered No. Fornication/adultery is the only lawful reason and that is what the exception clause points to. Iow, adultery/fornication is a lawful reason to divorce. Or put another way, adultery/fornication is the exception to no divorce for any reason.
Absent the exception, divorce and remarriage is considered adultery by both parties.
That said, there is more to take into account.... In Romans 11 Paul speaks of remarriage as lawful after the death of a husband. And Paul speaks more...
But I'll leave that to you and CV if you want. Hope this helps.
Thanks Lurker I would agree with what you said. There is also 1 Cor 7 which should be taken into account as well. The whole chapter is on divorce and marriage and has some answers to new converts as well when it pertains to marriage. There is a lot more to it but I see that a person who was the victim of adultry is free from his wife to marry. I don’t have much desire to go on about this topic.

Maybe cv would like to discuss it more with someone.

79

News Item3/7/18 5:56 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Kev wrote:
Maybe Lurker will give his thoughts.
There are two elements to the discussion that should be discussed separately: Divorce and remarriage.

Drawing from memory about the verses under discussion; the Jews ask Jesus if a man could divorce for any reason. He answered No. Fornication/adultery is the only lawful reason and that is what the exception clause points to. Iow, adultery/fornication is a lawful reason to divorce. Or put another way, adultery/fornication is the exception to no divorce for any reason.

Absent the exception, divorce and remarriage is considered adultery by both parties.

That said, there is more to take into account.... In Romans 11 Paul speaks of remarriage as lawful after the death of a husband. And Paul speaks more in his pastoral letter, I believe, so all needs to come into the picture.

But I'll leave that to you and CV if you want. Hope this helps.

78

News Item3/7/18 4:49 PM
Kev | US  Find all comments by Kev
If you don’t understand Matthew 5:32 read Matthew 19:9

Matthew 19:9

9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

The innocent party is free to Marry and is not an adulter as they are the person “except” pertains to:

Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery

Here it is same words just reordered. I think this is pretty clear:
Whosoever shall put away his wife and shall marry another committeth adultry except for fornication.

The whosoever shall marry her who is put away is addressing that there was a valid reason for putting her away and you will see she is still bound to her husband as whoever marries her commits adultry. The husband in the example is not an adulterer as the verse says whosoever shall put away his wife and Mary Another is an adulterer EXCEPT for fornication. The except part means they are not an adulter if they marry another if they put away the wife for adultry.

That’s about as clear as I can explain how I read this verse.

Maybe Lurker will give his thoughts.

77

News Item3/7/18 3:41 PM
cv  Find all comments by cv
Kev wrote:
Cheating means adultry(fornication)these days doesn’t it?
ALL sexual indiscretion in marriage is adultery!
Various bibles call fornication sexual immorality/unfathfullnes..
Yet virtually none read "Except for adultery..."

Its not academics. We HAVE remarriages. God spoke directly on it. When is remarriage not adultery. Perhaps Lurker can say what "Fornication" is.

Kev wrote:
I’m not quite sure how it says the innocent wife who is put away is caused to be an adulter as God said all who divorce WITHOUT fornication are adulterers.
I'm still not getting you.
You said, "The cheating party is bound the other is loosed. That’s how I read it."

I said, in Mt5:32 the wife was innocent (not guilty of fornication)
but in remarrying was committing adultery

In Mt5:, is there fornication? By whom?

76

News Item3/7/18 10:02 AM
Kev | US  Find all comments by Kev
cv wrote:
Cheating?
In Mt19:32, The innocent wife that is being put away is being CAUSED to commit adultery by remarrying -because she is innocent. The person marrying her is also committing adultery.
Except for FORNICATION, (whatever this is,) ALL remarriages (including the non cheating ones) are adulterous.
Cheating means adultry(fornication)these days doesn’t it?

I’m guessing you mean Matthew 5:32 (there is no Matthew 19:32).

Let me rewrite it by taking out the “saving for the cause of fornication” and add it to the end if that helps. It would mean the same thing.

Matthew 5:32
32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, ....., CAUSETH HER to commit adultery: and whosoever shall MARY HER that is divorced COMMITETH ADULTRY.
saving for the cause of fornication.

I just added it at the end unless you want to throw that whole part out. Now read just this part of the verse together:

saving for the cause of fornication,CAUSETH HER to commit adultery:

I’m not quite sure how it says the innocent wife who is put away is caused to be an adulter as God said all who divorce WITHOUT fornication are adulterers. I don’t think that verse says what you are reading it as. You are missing the “saving” which mean except.

75

News Item3/7/18 8:26 AM
James Thomas | FLA  Find all comments by James Thomas
John UK wrote:
As Jesus said:
Revelation 2:5
(5)  Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works;

This is Jeremiah the prophet all over again (Jer 2:13). Christians are not immune...
Is this not so?

Hey John allow me to catch up before I head out.
I suppose they could in ignorance. But knowing is half the battle.

I read a little further in Jereimaih where the two evils are spoken of. It seems as though those two evils are described as the adultery down below here.

Jeremiah 3:9
9And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.

In darkness their whoredom was hid. But light was shed on the truth that the stones were their greatest love and their stocks were the means to demonstrate that as described in Jer 2:13.

What was the light which revealed?

Jesus said to the woman at the well in John 4 that she had 5 husband's and the one she was with was not her husband.

I would even go a step further and say Jesus said she didn't know her husband.

Stocks and stones may break bones but words will heal everlasting.

74

News Item3/7/18 4:08 AM
cv  Find all comments by cv
Kev wrote:
Matthew 19:9
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, EXCEPT it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso MARRIETH HER which IS PUT AWAY doth commit adultery.

Matthew 5:31-32
31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put AWAY HIS WIFE, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, CAUSETH HER to commit adultery: and whosoever shall MARY HER that is divorced COMMITETH ADULTRY.

The cheating party is bound the other is loosed. That’s how I read it.

Cheating?

In Mt19:32, The innocent wife that is being put away is being CAUSED to commit adultery by remarrying -because she is innocent. The person marrying her is also committing adultery.

Except for FORNICATION, (whatever this is,) ALL remarriages (including the non cheating ones) are adulterous.

73

News Item3/7/18 12:15 AM
Kev | US  Find all comments by Kev
Matthew 19:9

9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, EXCEPT it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso MARRIETH HER which IS PUT AWAY doth commit adultery.

I’m pretty sure that all the part after the “except” only pertains to if one wasn’t cheated on. But the wife who is put away for adultery is still bound to her husband.

God divorced Israel and turned to the Gentiles so I’d say He was completely loosed from Israel to turn to another.

Here again you will see the only bound party is the one guilty of fornication which in the example is the wife. No mention of the husband sinning unless there was NO ADULTRY:

Matthew 5:31-32

31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put AWAY HIS WIFE, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, CAUSETH HER to commit adultery: and whosoever shall MARY HER that is divorced COMMITETH ADULTRY.

The cheating party is bound the other is loosed. That’s how I read it.

72

News Item3/6/18 11:40 PM
CV  Find all comments by CV
Kev wrote:
Divorce based on fornication is based more than on these two clear verses:
Matthew 5:31-32
31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, SAVING for the CAUSE OF FORNICATION, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Matthew 19:9
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, EXCEPT it be FOR FORNICATION, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commiteth adultery.
Except means except.
Sorry!
I used the word divorce in the contemporary sense, in the sense how we use it, - what it does to marriage where you are free to remarry. If ‘divorce’ does not allow remarriage then that’s separation.

So in Mathew, it’s the REMARRIAGE that is adultery
What is fornication.
What is THAT divorce (what it does) on marriage to allow for remarriage not being an adultery.

it’s not a trick question. There’s no agenda. We need to be honest & truthfull in arriving at Gods word wherever it leads to

71

News Item3/6/18 11:36 PM
Kev | US  Find all comments by Kev
Lurker wrote:
Add to that the qualification for a pastor or deacon..... husband of one wife. Paul wasn't saying polygamists can't hold those offices for if that was his purpose then the obvious inference would be lay people can be polygamists. He was setting a higher standard then that of lay people. But the language would be contradictory and superfluous if there was no biblical cause for divorce.
That said, I'm happily married 48 years so I have no dog in this fight but to defend the truth.
I’d agree with you that in I believe it is in 2 Timothy that a pastor is to have one wife means married once. He is also to be beyond reproach in his household and outside his house. He is called to a high standard as not to bring shame to the Lord or his character to be called into question.
70

News Item3/6/18 10:22 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Kev wrote:
Exactly! The Bible is clear on the topic. Only if one has an agenda can they not read the clear text.
I didn’t want some cheated on husband or wife who decided they wanted a divorce thinking they are in sin. The poor guy/girl has already been cheated on by a person with a hard heart. The hard hearted person was the adulterer not the one cheated on who wants a biblical divorce.
Add to that the qualification for a pastor or deacon..... husband of one wife. Paul wasn't saying polygamists can't hold those offices for if that was his purpose then the obvious inference would be lay people can be polygamists. He was setting a higher standard then that of lay people. But the language would be contradictory and superfluous if there was no biblical cause for divorce.

That said, I'm happily married 48 years so I have no dog in this fight but to defend the truth.

69

News Item3/6/18 9:57 PM
Kev | US  Find all comments by Kev
Lurker wrote:
Right on the mark, Kev.
God was lawfully married to both houses of Israel, lawfully divorced them both for adultery and betrothed Himself to another called from among the Gentiles. The Lamb awaits His marriage to His betrothed bride.
Now that is not to say that all were cast off forever..... a faithful remnant from both houses has and will repent of her adultery and return to her first husband (Hosea 2:7) and they will be received in mercy.
Not that difficult unless one has an agenda.
Exactly! The Bible is clear on the topic. Only if one has an agenda can they not read the clear text.

I didn’t want some cheated on husband or wife who decided they wanted a divorce thinking they are in sin. The poor guy/girl has already been cheated on by a person with a hard heart. The hard hearted person was the adulterer not the one cheated on who wants a biblical divorce.

68

News Item3/6/18 9:10 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Kev wrote:
God said He divorced Israel for adultery! Can you imagine God saying He was involved in something that is considered sinful?
Jeremiah 3:8
8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of DIVORCE; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
Right on the mark, Kev.

God was lawfully married to both houses of Israel, lawfully divorced them both for adultery and betrothed Himself to another called from among the Gentiles. The Lamb awaits His marriage to His betrothed bride.

Now that is not to say that all were cast off forever..... a faithful remnant from both houses has and will repent of her adultery and return to her first husband (Hosea 2:7) and they will be received in mercy.

Not that difficult unless one has an agenda.

67

News Item3/6/18 8:41 PM
Kev | US  Find all comments by Kev
Divorce based on fornication is based more than on these two clear verses:

Matthew 5:31-32

31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, SAVING for the CAUSE OF FORNICATION, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Matthew 19:9

9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, EXCEPT it be FOR FORNICATION, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

God said He divorced Israel for adultery! Can you imagine God saying He was involved in something that is considered sinful?

Jeremiah 3:8

8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of DIVORCE; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

To say there is any sin in divorce when a spouse commits adultery is like saying God sinned! The two verses are clear on the divorce when it pertains to ADULTRY.

Except means except.

66

News Item3/6/18 8:17 PM
cv  Find all comments by cv
The whole of the churches divorce position is built ONLY from Mt19/Mt5, out of the “except for fornication” clause.

Jesus actually ABOLISHES divorce here, not set the condition. The clause allows an exception to a Jewish betrothal where marriage hasn't yet occurred!

In Mt19 it didn’t work!
Let’s look at Mt5:31-32

At just a mere mention of fornication, there's a headlong rush to artificially impose this as a condition for divorce, even where it’s not called for.

In Mt19:31 Jesus is only referring back to where divorce itself was given, NOT THE CONDITION.
In the midst of a long run of, “It hath been said/ But I say” sayings, in V32 Jesus ABOLISHES Moses’ divorce itself. From this, it is clear to the Jews what is implied of his authority.

Ignoring all that, the church gets its divorce.

The Jews starting position is Moses’ authority to divorce. Inside of that, ALL the positions were debated.

In V32, with no Jewish challenges getting in the way, and no one to say otherwise, the church has Jesus state his condition – one opinion amongst many already there. The charge in Mt19 was against the permissive divorce.
Here, what the church gets is not the most restrictive in the range either, because it won’t work! fornication is amorphous and changes dependin

65
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