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Breaking News Home | All | Religion | Society | Tech | Choice | SA Newsroom
FRONT PAGE  |  2/17/2020
MONDAY, NOV 2, 2015  |  424 comments
Should Churches Remove Crosses to Make Muslim Migrants Feel at Home?

hile Islamic terrorists in various parts of the world are burning churches and executing Christians, crosses are being removed from some European churches — by church officials themselves.

And it’s being done in deference to Muslim sensibilities.

In what would be an example of a church exhibiting supposed Christian charity in a very secular way, InfoWars tells us:

A Protestant church in Oberhausen, Germany is set to remove Christian crosses, altars and pulpits in order to accommodate 50 Muslim migrants who were invited to stay in the building. ...


CLICK HERE to Read Entire Article
www.thenewamerican.com

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· Page 1 ·  Found: 424 user comment(s)
News Item11/24/15 8:47 AM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
Dave Hunt wrote:
...No matter how it is displayed, even as jewelry or graffiti, the cross is universally recognized as the symbol of Christianity—and therein lies a serious problem. The cross itself rather than what transpired upon it 19 centuries ago has become the focus of attention, resulting in several grave errors. Its very shape, though devised by cruel pagans for punishing criminals, has become holy and mysteriously imbued with magic properties, fostering the delusion that displaying a cross somehow provides divine protection....

Therein lies another serious problem with the symbol, and especially with Catholicism's crucifix which portrays Christ perpetually on the cross, as does the Mass. The emphasis is focused upon the physical suffering of Christ as though that paid for our sins. On the contrary, that was what man did to Him and could only condemn us all. Our redemption came about through: His bruising by Jehovah and "his soul [being made] an offering for sin" (Ls 53:10); God laying "on him the iniquity of us all" (v 6); and His bearing "our sins in his own body on the tree" (z Pt 2:24).

excerpt from, [URL=https://www.raptureready.com/resource/hunt/dh15.html]]]The Finality of the Cross[/URL]

Good article.

424

News Item11/23/15 5:08 AM
B. McCausland  Find all comments by B. McCausland
Lurker wrote:
1. "revealed truth" you mean fallible doctrines.
2. Word meaning... allowing God to define His own words.
3. A doctrine … and measured by scripture
4. chose to bail
1. Revealed truth is Scripture
2. God abides in truth; he does not need to define his words, their meaning is self-contained
3. Measured by Scripture is fine, not by rationalism.
4. When establishing doctrine, is safer to go the other way round without preconceive suppositions. Let doctrine flow from Scripture. It is not what 'I think Scripture should say' and then go about to prove it. There is a risk there

Those born of God can effectively handle God’s word from the Spirit within:

“These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
But the anointing which ye have received of him abides in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him” 1Jo 2:26-27

Differently to being in darkness (Jhn 8:44), abiding in him that is truth, makes one able to judge all things against false reasoning:

“he that is spiritual (indwelled by the Spirit) judges all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.” 1Co 2:15

423

News Item11/22/15 3:40 PM
Mourner  Find all comments by Mourner
James Thomas wrote:
H8420 "Tav"
Only used 3 times. Ezekiel 9:4, 9:6 and Job 31:35
H 8420 mark by implication signature; desire as in Job

Gk G5432 mark
scratch or etching that is stamp(as a badge of servitude)

Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Men desire to think on and serve one of two masters.

422

News Item11/22/15 3:19 PM
Gardner Wells | Crutchfield, MN  Find all comments by Gardner Wells
How about removing the word 'church'? I've seen many cases in the USA where they no longer call themselves "ABC Baptist Church" but "Jesus Love Fellowship" or something like that, all to not offend someone, anyone.
421

News Item11/22/15 11:55 AM
James Thomas  Find all comments by James Thomas
What did the cross look like?

Ezekiel 9:4 (KJV)
4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

Word for "mark" in the Hebrew is...

H8420 "Tav"

Only used 3 times. Ezekiel 9:4, 9:6 and Job 31:35

This being the last letter in the ancient Hebrew Script.
The letter of completion in the ancient script.

Research the "Tav" in the ancient Hebrew and you will see it is The cross as we know it.

420

News Item11/22/15 10:32 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Mike wrote:
In any case, it doesn't change much does it?
Can't stop, Mike, as I have to get ready for the Breaking of Bread meeting.

But if you think about it, is there something human about the shape of the cross in the picture at the head of the article? By which I mean, imagine it without the cross piece, so that it is just a vertical. Would a human want that as the symbol of their Christian faith? Just the shape of a post?

Is it a case of man designing something he thinks looks nice? Or nicer than a plain old pole?

What is the truth about the cross? Was it a cross? Or do we get that from years of traditions of men?

There are many who see no spiritual value in the Man on the cross. They do not see why he died. Most of the Jews did not see him as Messiah, sent of God.

And then you've got the Reformation and associated Christians, most of whom were determined to cleanse the church of every vestige of pagan, popish, heathen and unbiblical practices. I think we could safely say that the work was never completed. Which means what? It means there is still much work to be done, if we would like the worship of God to be as pure as possible.

I agree about the ancient greek, but have no skill whatever in that.

419

News Item11/22/15 10:16 AM
B. McCausland  Find all comments by B. McCausland
Mike wrote:
We have to interpret "cross" as having other than the understood meaning, in order to come up with pole. What is being crossed? In what way is a pole and a cross to mean the same thing? From what is the word "cross" derived? As long as we're thinking possibilities, perhaps the cross Jesus bore was the cross piece, for as has been mentioned who, with severe wounds, could bear a heavy pole possibly some 10 feet long?
Sorry, Mike, perhaps you missed the content of a previous post handling some of these questions.
See 11/21/15 4:42 PM
Also see the definitions at the beginning of this page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stauros
418

News Item11/22/15 9:11 AM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
B. McCausland wrote:
Yes, very slim evidence to support this notion. There is no reason why each hand could not had been fasten at a different height, over the head with a different nail, yet still 'hanging' from a single pole, or 'suspended' from a stake. Very painful literal 'hanging' position. Yet the concept of 'hanging' (to be suspended from) is biblical.
---
We have to interpret "cross" as having other than the understood meaning, in order to come up with pole. What is being crossed? In what way is a pole and a cross to mean the same thing? From what is the word "cross" derived? As long as we're thinking possibilities, perhaps the cross Jesus bore was the cross piece, for as has been mentioned who, with severe wounds, could bear a heavy pole possibly some 10 feet long?

Also consider the classical greek meaning in the centuries before the Roman Empire era, vs the Coine of the time of Christ on Earth. There is evidence to suggest the Romans "improved" crucifixion.

In any case, it doesn't change much does it?

417

News Item11/22/15 6:03 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Mike wrote:
Which KJV are you using, bro?
Ooops, well spotted Mike.
416

News Item11/22/15 12:30 AM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
B. McCausland wrote:
Biblical debate parts from revealed truth as an absolute, so both parties endeveour to find proof from the content of Scripture to support the particular opinion. The support of the argument should not proceed from rationalistic devises, but from the Scripture text itself at face value, taking into consideration grammar, context and word meaning.
Any other notion, sounds as a distorted/presumptious game related to sophistry.
My apologies for this; no insult intended, the comparison is given just for clarification.
No insult taken.

I can agree with this if by "revealed truth" you mean fallible doctrines. Personally, I consider the sum of scripture as revealed truth (Deut 29:29) but I can work with your definition.

As for grammar and context..... no problem. Word meaning...... I suspect we part ways there as you don't seem too keen on allowing God to define His own words. Apart from that, isn't what you wrote above pretty much what I've been saying about biblical debate all along? A doctrine is set on the table and measured by scripture? But a debate cannot continue to a conclusion unless both parties agree to be bound by scripture. We've been there before but you chose to bail.

415

News Item11/21/15 9:04 PM
B. McCausland  Find all comments by B. McCausland
pennelope wrote:
two beam cross ... Peace in Christ to you.
Thank you for your post and for the link, which seems to provide additional/interesting information for further consideration.
The detail about the Passover does not seem to decide much, however. (???)
The evidence for the 'hanging' from a pole seems to make acceptable/biblical 'sense' in the case of Christ. (?...)
Something to ponder about.
Peace be unto you also.
414

News Item11/21/15 8:20 PM
pennelope  Find all comments by pennelope
BMcC, you might be interested that it seems Josephus used the word stauros "cross" in an example of a two beam crucifix (although there were also one stake crucifixes), and apparently the Aramaic original indicates plural for nails... link here...

http://aramaicnt.com/files/The%20Cross.pdf

also an interesting connection to the Passover Lamb and how the blood is placed on the beam above and the sides, Exodus 2.

a non essential, the reason for Christ's suffering and what was accomplished that day much more important, though I've remained here knowing Jehovah Witnesses are adamant against the two beam cross and also deny Christ's deity. Peace in Christ to you.

413

News Item11/21/15 7:42 PM
B. McCausland  Find all comments by B. McCausland
Lurker wrote:
In any event, I'd be wary to conclude the cross had a cross beam based on questionable evidence eg: nails vs. nail.
Yes, very slim evidence to support this notion. There is no reason why each hand could not had been fasten at a different height, over the head with a different nail, yet still 'hanging' from a single pole, or 'suspended' from a stake. Very painful literal 'hanging' position. Yet the concept of 'hanging' (to be suspended from) is biblical.

For instance,
"one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him ..." Luk 23:39

"Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree." and

"we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:" Act 5:30 & 10:39 and

"Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree" Gal 3:13

Also in the incident with Thomas, only the print in the hands and wounded side is mentioned, not the feet.

Just thinking.

412

News Item11/21/15 7:07 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
John UK wrote:
Thanks Penny, interesting points.
But if you take the verse I mentioned earlier, it fits better if you put stake instead of cross.
Matthew 27:32 KJV
(32) And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his stake.
---
Which KJV are you using, bro?
411

News Item11/21/15 7:04 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
B. McCausland wrote:
2. Hellos (nails) in Greek seems to be a plural. See
http://www.laparola.net/greco/parola.php?p=%E1%BC%A7%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%82&vers=1
Interesting site. I clicked on the Perseus Digital Library site which seems to indicate the word is singular.

In any event, I'd be wary to conclude the cross had a cross beam based on questionable evidence eg: nails vs. nail.

410

News Item11/21/15 6:36 PM
B. McCausland  Find all comments by B. McCausland
Lurker wrote:
1. Debate deals with objective biblical facts such as ...

2. Nails

1. In case this helps
Debate: a public/open discussion in which opposing arguments for a matter/opinion are put forward

Biblical debate parts from revealed truth as an absolute, so both parties endeveour to find proof from the content of Scripture to support the particular opinion. The support of the argument should not proceed from rationalistic devises, but from the Scripture text itself at face value, taking into consideration grammar, context and word meaning.

Any other notion, sounds as a distorted/presumptious game related to sophistry.
My apologies for this; no insult intended, the comparison is given just for clarification.

2. Hellos (nails) in Greek seems to be a plural. See
http://www.laparola.net/greco/parola.php?p=%E1%BC%A7%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%82&vers=1

3. Every blessing, John, also.

409

News Item11/21/15 5:58 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
B. McCausland wrote:
1. Thanks for your compliment about the 'cross' post
2. Sorry Lurker, it is difficult to fathom the meaning of your previous post.
However, Humanistic debate does not coincide with Biblical debate, because Humanism does not part from certainties, but suppositions/theories that need to be proved. We do part from revealed truth that does not need to be ‘proved’
1) You're welcome.

2) There you go again wandering off into la la land. The meaning of my previous post was to answer your absurdity with absurdity.

As for biblical debate, you're still clueless. Debate deals with objective biblical facts such as your mortal body at this time is "in Adam". That fact proves your appeal to 1 Cor 15:52 does not establish imputation of original sin..... an assertion I'd guess you would have wagered an arm and a leg would put an end to the debate.

. . .

Penny,

Nails....... The NLT and NIV render it nail while most other translations render it nails. The lexicon doesn't offer any help whether the underlying word, defined "nail", should be rendered singular of plural. I question whether a plural translation is required by the Greek language and may be a subjective judgment call of the translators.

We need a scholar of Greek.

408

News Item11/21/15 5:29 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Thanks Penny, interesting points.

But if you take the verse I mentioned earlier, it fits better if you put stake instead of cross.

Matthew 27:32 KJV
(32) And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his stake.

It was a dreadful thing, to crucify the incarnate God who was their Messiah. But thanks be to God, it was his will and purpose, because of his great love for sinful mankind, and this was the only way he could be both just and the justifier of the ungodly. In our fellowship we meditate upon this event every Lord's day, when we have a Breaking of Bread service lasting about an hour, every minute of it pondering and remembering the Lord in his death, and also his resurrection. It has the effect of fixing the means of our salvation firmly in our minds, and most beneficial.

Sister B, no need for an apology. I'm not thick, but sometimes you go over my head. That's why I can't read people like John Owen. Yes, good points made. And I agree with Lurker about your capability of being a great blessing on the threads. Every blessing to you.

407

News Item11/21/15 5:26 PM
B. McCausland  Find all comments by B. McCausland
John UK wrote:
1.evangelical jargon

2.Lurker wrote
God fearing Protestant churches/congregations

1. Sorry John, it is hoped that the language used was at average comprehension level.

Certainly, the ‘evangelical jargon’ chimes as a lullaby in churches because of the lack of depth and freshness in the pulpits that repeat in boredom ‘sermonizing’ clichés.
However, cultural instruction for the breaking down of this so called ‘jargon’ is one of the pulpit’s tasks, as Ezra did in Nh 8:8
“they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading”

As for witnessing, good to 'mince out' meaning without diluting it.

_____

Lurker:
2. Most Presbyterians dislike crosses
3. Thanks for your compliment about the 'cross' post
4. Sorry Lurker, it is difficult to fathom the meaning of your previous post.
However, Humanistic debate does not coincide with Biblical debate, because Humanism does not part from certainties, but suppositions/theories that need to be proved. We do part from revealed truth that does not need to be ‘proved’

______

5. pennnelope:
Sorry, not sure about how to account for the 'two' nails ??

406

News Item11/21/15 5:05 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Excellent commentary on the cross, sister B.

You have the potential to be a real blessing on this forum if you just stick to the gifts God has given you. Debate doesn't seem to be one of them.

405
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