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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  12/22/2014
WEDNESDAY, OCT 23, 2013  |  77 comments
Baptism rates slide despite high profile boosts
The rite of baptism gets big press on Wednesday (Oct. 23) when Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby will christen Prince George, a future king of England.

Welby has made it a teachable moment for a country where only one in six are baptized. In a YouTube video, he explains that by bringing their son forward for baptism, Prince William and Duchess Catherine are “bringing God into the middle of it all…”

Set aside that one in five Americans today say they have no religious identity. Even among those who do claim a denominational label, “there is a de-emphasis on practicing faith,” said the Rev. Frank Page, president of the Southern Baptist Convention’s executive committee.

“People want God but they’re not happy with churches,” he said, so rites such as baptism are victims of an “anti-denominational, anti-institutional, even anti-church era.” ...


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· Page 1 ·  Found: 77 user comment(s)
News Item10/29/13 8:41 PM
John for JESUS | ATL  Find all comments by John for JESUS
Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. (Acts 19:4-6 NKJV)

Let's look at what Paul said about baptism! He makes reference to John's baptism, as it pointed to Jesus, and then he physically laid hands on them resulting in the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Also important to point out, Paul speaks of one baptism. John's baptism in the past tense. They were baptized in the Holy Spirit at that time meaning it was the current form of true baptism. He makes no reference to any other type!

77

News Item10/29/13 6:25 PM
CV  Find all comments by CV
2) (For in preaching, God had to be commanding God to baptize)

John for JESUS wrote:
2) No, He was telling His disciples to baptize
No! We've already covered that.
Paul in all his preaching never considered the BAPTISM of the Holy Spirit that took placeas a result of his preaching, (and I am sure it took place), as BAPTIZING. But Paul distinguishes a distinct physical act that he lists as having performed on only very few occasions as the act of baptizing.

That's our final authority. No overiding a clear biblical definition! The Bible is not silent on this. So you have no legitamate point

76

News Item10/29/13 6:03 PM
John for JESUS | ATL  Find all comments by John for JESUS
CV wrote:
1)The GC "to baptize" then had to be fulfilled through laying on of hands? 2) (For in preaching, God had to be commanding God to baptize)
3)The GC cammand was to BAPTIZE WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT THROUGH LAYING ON OF HANDS! A distinct seperate act from preaching. Right?
1) Yes.
2) No, He was telling His disciples to baptize. Which they were enabled to do by God.
3) Yes.
75

News Item10/29/13 5:09 PM
CV  Find all comments by CV
In the bible, the appostles "baptized" is always in reference to a distinct physical act, and never in reference to preaching as you arrive at it.
J4J wrote:
Agreed. The physical act was laying of hands.
YOU ADMIT NOW THAT THE COMMAND TO BAPTIZE IS NOT MET THROUGH PREACHING.

J4J wrote:
CORRECT. However, that doesn't change the fact that the disciples first preached and also baptized by the laying on of hands. I consider that baptizing, right?
Peter and John laid their hands on the Samaritans and they (as a result of being baptized in a physical action of laying on of hands) were filled with the Holy Spirit.
"baptized in a physical action of laying on of hands"

But I asked you that at the start - if it was a distinct physcal act - like water baptism?

The GC "to baptize" then had to be fulfilled through laying on of hands? (For in preaching, God had to be commanding God to baptize)

The GC cammand was to BAPTIZE WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT THROUGH LAYING ON OF HANDS! A distinct seperate act from preaching. Right?

74

News Item10/29/13 2:43 AM
John for JESUS  Find all comments by John for JESUS
penny wrote:
Unprofitable Servant, you have certainly tried and have made a lot of sense to me. 1) there's extrabiblical evidence and accounts of first baptisms, its just that his theology finds its greatest enlightenment in diminishing 2) the power of the gospel. But God is still good and Christ is still on the throne, so you and yours have a great evening.
1) Part of the problem is that people look to what men believe and teach about baptism than look at what Jesus actually taught about it! Look at what Jesus taught about baptism to understand what He meant in the Great Commision.
2) Speaking of power,.

Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with POWER from on high.” (Luke 24:49 KJV)

But as many as received him, to them gave he POWER to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (John 1:12 KJV)

But ye shall receive POWER after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. (Acts 1:8 KJV)

73

News Item10/28/13 11:23 PM
penny  Find all comments by penny
Unprofitable Servant, you have certainly tried and have made a lot of sense to me. there's extrabiblical evidence and accounts of first baptisms, its just that his theology finds its greatest enlightenment in diminishing the power of the gospel. But God is still good and Christ is still on the throne, so you and yours have a great evening.
72

News Item10/28/13 11:16 PM
John for JESUS | ATL  Find all comments by John for JESUS
Unprofitable Servant wrote:
1) Unless I am just misunderstanding you, your assertion all along has been that the baptism being spoken of is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
You seemed to be missing out on the application of Biblical principles in the believer's life. 2)But that seems to be where your logic lies.
John UK and CV (also jpw) are trying to help you see this, God bless them, your seem like a bright person, please take time to think over what they are saying.
1)That is exactly what I am asserting. I believe the disciples did baptize in the Holy Spirit as Jesus commanded. However, God gave them that power and Christians no longer can. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is completely God's work now. As I've stated before, JESUS only mentions the baptism done by John and prophetically speaks of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. John's baptism is over and the baptism in the Holy Spirit is the only one left that Jesus would have meant.
2)Isn't it a principle to understand context and literalism?
71

News Item10/28/13 9:04 PM
Unprofitable Servant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unprofitable Servant
[AUTHOR]John for JESUS[/AUTHOR]...
I am not saying that preaching and baptism are the same thing!
....[/QUOTE]J4J, thanks for your response. I read what I put 2x looking for where I said that you said (confusing isn't it ) preaching and baptism are the same. To quote myself,

(please note believing and being baptized are seen as separate incidents, which is not the case in your belief system)

Unless I am just misunderstanding you, your assertion all along has been that the baptism being spoken of is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. If I am hitting this wrong in your thinking, my bad, the Bible teaches we are baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ at salvation. Thus I stated what I said.

You seemed to be missing out on the application of Biblical principles in the believer's life. For instance, the principle in Luke 12 is not I should not build barns it is that I need to have my treasure primarily in heaven and to be prepared for eternity. We don't say because our precious Lord condemned the rich man faulty plans that it is sinful to build barns. But that seems to be where your logic lies.
John UK and CV (also jpw) are trying to help you see this, God bless them, your seem like a bright person, please take time to think over what they are saying.

70

News Item10/28/13 8:48 PM
John for JESUS | ATL  Find all comments by John for JESUS
CV wrote:
"In the command to preach, if the desciples preach then the desciples is said to have preached.
If the desciples set up and God preaches, are the desciples said to have preached?
Are the two literally the same?"
I put this to you.
And you answered NO!

1) NO! It is not baptizing either!
In as clear an articulation of what you've been calling "baptizing", you admit it's not.
You assert a label "literal baptism" by repeating a mantra "in preaching they preached, in baptizing..literally"
You admit that the command to baptize is not met through preaching.
2)In the bible, the appostles "baptized" is always in reference to a distinct physical act, and never in reference to preaching as you arrive at it.

1) Correct. However, that doesn't change the fact that the disciples first preached and also baptized by the laying on of hands. I consider that baptizing, right? Peter and John laid their hands on the Samaritans and they (as a result of being baptized in a physical action of laying on of hands) were filled with the Holy Spirit.
2) Agreed. The physical act was the laying on of hands.
69

News Item10/28/13 6:50 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
John for JESUS wrote:
John UK...
I don't believe Gentile converts did think they had to go to Jerusalem to start witnessing. That is the point! The command to do so was given to the Jewish disciples of Christ, before His ascension, to them specifically. It isn't specifically for anyone else but them (though it applies to all believers).
Yes, I agree, and it is noteworthy that Jesus told them to teach their converts to obey everything that the Lord taught them. So the Great Commission was to evangelise the world, starting at the place where you are now. This is the application for us today. When I was first converted, all my evangelism was local to begin with. Then it spread out further afield. Then when I moved, my witnessing was taken further. And now I have moved again to Wales, I am into Samaria, if you get my drift.
68

News Item10/28/13 5:31 PM
CV  Find all comments by CV
"In the command to preach, if the desciples preach then the desciples is said to have preached.
If the desciples set up and God preaches, are the desciples said to have preached?

Are the two literally the same?"

I put this to you.
And you answered NO!

John for JESUS wrote:
No, they are different
NO! It is not baptizing either!
In as clear an articulation of what you've been calling "baptizing", you admit it's not.

You assert a label "literal baptism" by repeating a mantra "in preaching they preached, in baptizing..literally"

You keep it at this surface level where you simply assert the label. Because examining the legitamacy of steps at how you arrive at your assertion forces you to admit NO, it's different.

You admit that the command to baptize is
not met through preaching.
In the bible, the appostles "baptized" is always in reference to a distinct physical act, and never in reference to preaching as you arrive at it.

But you're crafty. Even after you admit, you will override and repeat your mantra.

You assert your label, not arrive at it. Because it is not honest.

Your arguement method is clever and crafty. Always on the surface and keep it shifting!

67

News Item10/28/13 4:57 PM
John for JESUS | Atl  Find all comments by John for JESUS
John UK...

Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. (Acts 2:33 NKJV)

The disciples had not gone through Jerusalem preaching the resurrection of Christ and salvation through faith in Him yet (at that point). I don't believe Gentile converts did think they had to go to Jerusalem to start witnessing. That is the point! The command to do so was given to the Jewish disciples of Christ, before His ascension, to them specifically. It isn't specifically for anyone else but them (though it applies to all believers).

66

News Item10/28/13 3:41 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
John for Jesus wrote:
The Great Commission can be applied to believers by witnessing where they are at, as John UK says. However, Jesus gave an order to His disciples specifically to start in Jerusalem. So if anyone thinks the Great Commission is specificly given to themself, that is also where they are to start.
Ahem, you forget John that Jerusalem was well evangelised by the apostles, with a huge multitude of converts. The commission was to preach the gospel worldwide. Do you really think the converts at Antioch or Corinth imagined they had to go back to Jerusalem to start evangelising there?

Such nonsense, John. With respect.

You are not applying scripture correctly, as any pastor will tell you. Ask your own pastor if you will.

It is for each local church to take their place in the evangelising of the whole world. They begin on their own doorstep, they build up the converts. If it is God's will for some of them to go further abroad, or for the church to support a national ministry abroad, he will make it known to the church. This is why it is important for every believer to be a part of a local fellowship, for God works through such.

65

News Item10/28/13 3:27 PM
John for Jesus | ATL  Find all comments by John for Jesus
The Great Commission can be applied to believers by witnessing where they are at, as John UK says. However, Jesus gave an order to His disciples specifically to start in Jerusalem. So if anyone thinks the Great Commission is specificly given to themself, that is also where they are to start. The whole idea of Jesus supposedly telling them to perform a water ritual is a whole different topic. I don't believe He did because baptism was always about John's baptism or of the Holy Spirit to Him. Seeing that John's baptism was done away with after his ministry that left just one baptism which Jesus taught, the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
64

News Item10/28/13 2:21 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
John for JESUS wrote:
When reading Acts, that is exactly what His disciples did. They started in Jerusalem on Pentecost, worked out from Judea to Samaria, and then to the Gentile nations.
From this biblical example, as I mentioned in an earlier post, the principle is that wherever you are when Christ comes to you and brings you into his kingdom, that is the place where you begin to witness; that is your Jerusalem.

But the church soon forgets the word of the Lord, and it took persecution to get many folks out of Jerusalem and onto the roads to bear witness in the neighbouring counties and countries.

Acts 8:1 KJV
1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

A sinner is converted, he is baptised in water, he is discipled, he learns to serve Christ, he learns doctrine, he worships God, he stays to support the work locally, or he might be called to the mission field abroad.

The church exists to make Christ known to the whole world, it matters nothing where you start from. Oh boy!

63

News Item10/28/13 1:16 PM
John for JESUS | ATL  Find all comments by John for JESUS
UNPROFITABLE SERVANT...

I am not saying that preaching and baptism are the same thing!

I don't see anywhere in those verses about starting to preach in Jerusalem. I see it here:

Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (Luke 24:46, 47 NKJV)

Adding to that, I believe Jesus reiterates the command to preach from Jerusalem first in Acts.

But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” (Acts 1:8 NKJV)

When reading Acts, that is exactly what His disciples did. They started in Jerusalem on Pentecost, worked out from Judea to Samaria, and then to the Gentile nations.

62

News Item10/28/13 12:06 PM
Unprofitable Servant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unprofitable Servant
John for JESUS wrote:
... That's the same thing with the Great Commission. Christians don't need to start preaching in Jerusalem ...
Matthew 28:18-20 (NKJV) And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen."

Mark 16:15,16 (NKJV) " and He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

(please note believing and being bapized are seen as separate incidents, which is not the case in your belief system)

There you go (the verses in Acts 1 are NOT the great commission) WHERE in ANY of those verses do you see something about starting to preach in Jerusalem?

61

News Item10/28/13 10:56 AM
John for JESUS | Atl  Find all comments by John for JESUS
penny wrote:
have the Zionist scissors taken their next scripture out of the bible?

JforJ, I welcome a correction if I have misunderstood what you meant.

When Jesus told the blind man to go wash in the Pool of Siloam, that was an instruction specifically to that man. It wasn't a command for all Christians everywhere to obey. Believers can apply the event to their lives though. That's the same thing with the Great Commission. Christians don't need to start preaching in Jerusalem (unless they already live there), they aren't able to baptize in the Holy Spirit anymore by laying on of hands, and there is no longer a need to wait for the baptism of the Holy Spirit because He is already poured out on believers. Christians should go and preach the gospel and make disciples though.
60

News Item10/28/13 9:00 AM
SteveR  Find all comments by SteveR
penny wrote:
have the Zionist scissors taken their next scripture out of the bible?
some take out the sermon on the mount, and if there was one to cut out it would be that! (because its so convicting and impossible to achieve in the flesh!)
some, portions of the letters, they say "this was for Jew" or "this was for Gentile"
they appease the conscience of the unredeemed to say there's a plan for a salvation that can "wait" while the rest need "today" for who knows what tomorrow may bring....
these teachers run the most conservative of seminaries ,
..and now the Great Commission was specifically for the ears of the disciples, not necessarily those afterward?
Well Said Penny

Thank you for your tireless refutations of the vile dispensational heresies that infect this website

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Romans 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

59

News Item10/28/13 8:44 AM
penny  Find all comments by penny
John for JESUS wrote:
That's because the GC was to Jesus' disciples specifically.
have the Zionist scissors taken their next scripture out of the bible?

some take out the sermon on the mount, and if there was one to cut out it would be that! (because its so convicting and impossible to achieve in the flesh!)

some, portions of the letters, they say "this was for Jew" or "this was for Gentile"

they appease the conscience of the unredeemed to say there's a plan for a salvation that can "wait" while the rest need "today" for who knows what tomorrow may bring....

these teachers run the most conservative of seminaries and then their brethren the kabbalists and Talmud followers the liberal seminaries,

so now we are to cut out spiritual gifts, for they didn't apply to the church? (the NT is not the blueprint for Christianity?)

and now the Great Commission was specifically for the ears of the disciples, not necessarily those afterward?

cut and paste, scissors.

once you read the NT through Talmudic eyes, the NT is divided up and you end up with a divided message, a weak Messiah, and all that jazz.

JforJ, I welcome a correction if I have misunderstood what you meant.

58
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