John UK wrote: Maybe you would care to condemn the idolatry of having four fifteen foot statues of Reformers in Geneva? Hmmmm? Notice your own comment? "Ever come across this verse John?" Ahem, what shall I say? I know, I'll tell you to take the verse in its context, complete with the whole thing, rather than a verse taken out of its context and made into a pretext. Is that okay? Maybe then the fifteen foot statue of John Calvin can remain in its place. Or would you prefer the Baptists to sneak in by night and remove every vestige of idolatry from the streets of the city?
Calvin would not allow his own grave to be marked because he understood how all men are nothing but Idolaters at heart even Protestants so he would be appalled at any statute of himself.
Reduce the risk to others Hi, I always take JWs literature then bin it, at least they can't pass it on to somebody else then.
I know they are not allowed to take what I would give them but if we all took there literature there would be a lot less for them to pass on to people who might be fooled by them.
Christopher000 wrote: " I used to believe in this creation gap, first hearing of it from Chuck Missler. Since being on this site I now tend to doubt it, but my persistent question is why was God hovering over a formless Earth? Many say the the Earth was left formless and void after a violent war, but I wonder to myself if it just happened to be the rock He chose, and began forming and creating from there.
Christopher first God created a mature earth; how old was Adam at his creation? was a babe, boy, teenager or a mature man? What about the trees were they just seeds or saplings or fully grow and able to reproduce. We could ask this about all of the living creatures at creation.
Also consider the forth commandment in Exd 20:8-11 God Himself confirms a literal six day creation or did He bear a false witness thus breaking His own word in :16. Also in Exd 31:17 Jehovah reaffirms six day creation; again its God who is speaking :12. Now either God is the God of truth or He is no God at all. Its an issue of faith over and against unbelief 2Cor 5:7.
US I accept Mary was well into her pregnancy but a last minute arrival still not proven.
Why is it important? because we are to worship God in Spirit and Truth. How we worship God is very important.
To reduce the great and central doctrine of Christ coming into the world to save sinners to nothing more than a childish story which is what most churches reduce it to, like many of their Sunday schools today reduces Christianity to childish story telling is counter productive.
I seen this personal as children grow up they leave childish things behind including the childish gospel which sadly many of them have been taught. Especially at Christmas.
Spirit and Truth not myth and childishness. Is the worship we are to give.
Unprofitable Servant wrote: BRF, from Galilee to Bethlehem was about 70 - 80 miles. So, the journey for the person who was said to be great with child, took maybe a week at the most. The text gives indication that they were not there long before the birth of our Lord. So, Mike's statement would seem to be accurate, would you agree? As to the date, some believe that because the Scripture talks of God tabernacling among us, it would have been around the feast of tabernacles, an event that just happened. The thing is the date is not important, the event is. The birth of Christ is something to celebrate and give thanks for daily!! "Thanks be unto God for His unspeakable gift" (2 Corinthians 9:15)
US the text does not indicate how long they were in Bethlehem but it does state that they were already in a place of residence and that the modern view of them arriving at the last moment and going round looking for some where to stay and having to settle for a stable is nothing but a myth. Many think that the journey would have to included a detour to avoid Samaria because of the hostility between the Jews and Samaritans. Would you subject a pregnant family member to take such a journey ?
Allie wrote: They are apostate. There are a lot of chaff mixed with the wheat. Where there is good biblical teaching most unbelievers can't continue to endure it and leave. There is your answer. Dispensational and Covenant Theology is not the issue. Either you love God or you don't. [/QU
Well said Allie, many a denomination of different views have become apostate and departed from their original doctrinal position, Dispensationalist are no exception, the Brethren movement is a dysfunctional group today, falling out and disagreeing with each other. Because they don't believe in mutual over sight or support each individual church is a law unto themselves. One denomination that has remained faithful to its origins is The Protestant Reformed Churches; but even they have their detractors.
John Yurich USA wrote: Just because I have not left the RCC and have not united with an Evangelical Church does not mean that I don't accept justification by faith alone and that I am not saved. It is not required for salvation to leave the RCC and unite with an Evangelical Church. And my religious beliefs are no business of my priest. And so I will not discuss my religious beliefs with my priest. You stated I have not stated that I accept justification by faith alone. Well I am stating now in no uncertain terms that I accept justification by faith alone. [/QUOTE You don't talk to your Priest about your faith? Don't you care about his soul? Don't you believe in the communion of the saints? Do you believe the Apostles Creed? Your a law unto your self and so you don't understand the Christian faith at all.
Mike wrote: Cows and sheep in the house would have made for interesting fragrances throughout. Perhaps this is myth as well? [/Q It was common practice in Europe and the middle east up to the 14th and 15th century for the poorest people to keep their live stock in their homes. We must not forget we are talking about a different culture when ones wealth was your live stock. The idea of Mary and Joseph turning up on the 24 of December in Bethlehem nine months pregnant is more to do with interpreting a nativity play and not scripture.
If I gave the impression the manger was in the upper room I apologise it was with in the family home that they kept their animals being their most prized possessions. Where the family lived being about 4 feet higher than where they kept their animals, which fed from stalls. But with in the living area they had mangers not stalls which were dug out of the stone floor from which they ate. This was where our Lord was placed. No where in scripture is a stable mentioned it all took place in a house. The inn also translated upper room was a guest room separate from the family home something like a granny flat today.
John Yurich USA wrote: It is morally wrong to support abortion but it is not morally wrong to believe in justification by faith alone. And thus I am a Catholic in good standing with the Catholic Church. Why did you state that I allegedly believe in justification by faith alone? Why do you have some doubt that I believe in justification by faith alone?
Because you stay in a church that rejects the very heart of the gospel justification by faith alone. Also you never actually state that you hold the doctrine which is at the heart of the Reformation, justification by faith alone. If you had the courage of your convictions you would tell your priest and you would be excommunicated. Abortion is forgivable even to Rome today, but justification is still anathema to Rome. You must make your stand either for the Biblical faith Rome rejects or accept you don't really hold to the truth of Justification by faith alone.
Sorry Mike but you have bought into one of the myths around Christ's incarnation.
While we agree the account in Matthew 2 and Luke 2 are different visits the word inn found in Luke 2 is also the same word translated upper room in Luke 22:11 but not the same he used in the parable of the good Samaritan 10:25-37. The upper room in Jewish homes being a guest room. It was the upper room or guest room that was full and so Christ's family were taken into the family home, . Also in the family area people kept their most valuable possessions namely animals with them and so the manger was not out of place in a house.
John UK wrote: Many say it is a good opportunity for the gospel,
My own experience is that people are more open to a discussion on spiritual things which they would not have any interest in, because of my rejection of Christmas and some of my own beliefs like there not being a stable, but a house Matt 2:11 or the visits of the Magi being different visits of Joseph and Mary to Bethlehem. When you actually study what the Bible teaches on the incarnation many of the myths presented in the modern nativity play are debunked.
John Yurich USA wrote: Baptists and all other normal Protestants who accept the Bible as the sole rule of faith believe that celebrating the Birth of Jesus is scriptural because the Birth of Jesus is in the Bible. Sure the secular aspect of Christmas is of pagan origin but the religious aspect of Christmas the Birth of Jesus is not pagan.
All Pentecostals and most charismatics are either Baptists or Protestants and their wrong about the signs and wonders so that's no argument. John UK is Baptist but does not keep Christmas so once again your argument is wrong. And again you find no Scripture to prove your argument, there are many things in the Bible which we should not accept, only what is commanded is to be accepted and no where is Christmas commanded or even practiced. We have no authority to add to the worship of God what he as not instructed us do.
John Yurich USA wrote: Of course those historical facts are ignored or overlooked by normal Protestants because they know that it is not unscriptural to celebrate the Birth of Jesus. Only abnormal Protestants believe it is unscriptural to celebrate the Birth of Jesus.
So John as you always do you descend into calling people names but on no account prove your abuse from scripture. Christmas is the invention of Rome to hid a pagan festival FACT. Nowhere does scripture command us to keep it FACT. Scripture does warn us about adding to scripture Deut 4:2 12:32 Rev 22:18-19 FACT. But why bother with either scripture or FACTS when you can descend to abuse and name calling just like a immature youth would do.
John Yurich USA wrote: Since when is the celebration of the Birth of Jesus a "Catholic Event" only? Since Rome invented without any Biblical warrant for it.
Since when is the celebration of the Birth of Jesus unscriptural?
Since its nowhere commanded nor kept by Christ or the Apostles.
While Luther did keep the season Calvin only retained it out of pragmatism. The Reformers where guided by the Bible and not a direct revelation of the Holy Spirit. It is quite revealing that while the Apostles were led into all truth by the Holy Spirit John 16:13 they never kept it nor commanded it to be kept.
John its not just from now to the new year that the Romanising of the church goes on, but is all year, so called Lent and Easter times etc. Most Protestant churches have given in because know body today holds to or teaches the antithesis; that is the spiritual separation from both the world and all false religions such as Rome. Sadly the argument as been lost in most churches requiring that those of us zealots left are left no other option than coming out from among them. We now await the backlash.