Vic wrote:
I take it these childless who are doing all the sobbing will give up the idea of retirement since the children of others will be footing the bill!

Another point is to ask a mother how many jobs(functions/roles) she participates in, whilst serving the community raising the next generation, as a mother. Thus to be fair shouldn't she receive TWO salaries for her two careers?

Whats wrong with this theology Michael and Abigail?

The Roman church teaches salvation by works and if your good enough then you become a saint(god) in heaven promoted by the Pope.

This is the same message that you Arminian-Free Willers teach and post isn't it? Works based religion wins salvation!!

Why Abigail you especially have recently posted, that faith without the addition of human effort, doesn't win salvation for you.

Your Democrats appear to be polluted with Liberalism.

Ours are called "Liberal Democrats" so I guess were one step ahead. Basically as far as decent society is concerned, these Lib Dems are anarchist and anti ethical authority. However the sad thing about it is that all bureaucracy is suffering from this Satanic disease.

Rom 1:26 "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections:"

Because = 18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, **who hold the truth in unrighteousness**"
25 "Who **changed the truth** of God into a lie,"

1The 4:5 "Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:"

Those who do not "know" God cannot control the flesh.

Gen 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my COVENANT with him for an EVERLASTING covenant, and with his seed after him.

= Here God establishes HIS Covenant with HIS people for eternity.

20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

= Here God presents an earthbound provision to Ishmael and his seed.

21 BUT MY COVENANT will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year."

There is ONLY one Covenant between God for eternal Salvation established by God through Isaac.

Gal 4:22 "For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was BY PROMISE.

Salvation is of God.

Yet you teach that we may expect HIM not to deliver.

As for your understanding of Bible.
Apparently your conclusion from Scripture is that you cannot trust God. What your definition of faith is I can't imagine!! But clearly it is sourced within sinful mortal ability, - Which of course is salvation by works. If God must rely upon man for salvation, then Christ achieved nothing on the cross and sin is no more than a simple malady, (as indeed other Arminians such as JD think).

If human ability is the linchpin of salvation in Christ, then God is defeated before He starts.

You have reduced God and his divine purpose to human-sinners level. Why? Only to pander to your carnal vanity and serve Satan.

Paul said
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God *UNTO* salvation to every one that believeth;"Ro 1.16

Abigail says
I'm ashamed to report that this gospel does not have the power to take us all the way to salvation.

1Pet 1.5 Who are ARE KEPT BY THE POWER of God through faith UNTO salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1Cor 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

1Cor 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Abigail wrote:
It is illogical to think that God goes against His own will to save a select few. God is not willing that any should perish. If He is unwilling for any to perish—and if humanity has no part in their own salvation—it would be logical to say that everyone will be saved.

First note at v15 Peter goes on to explain that, "longsuffering of our Lord is salvation."

Second you are automatically assuming "us-ward" is universal. But Peter is not suggesting that in this context.

Third God does not allow HIS people to perish. "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." John 6:39.

Fourth Repentance, as Lurker has explained, can only come to the "born again" by grace and the Holy Spirit.

Election is about God's choice NOT about salvation by works.

Election is about God choosing whom HE decides to, - And believe it or not HE choose Isaac, NOT Ishmael. This of course brings us into Covenant theology whereby Isaac and ALL God's Elect are in Covenant with Him and He with them.

Election is unconditional because it comes through the merits of Christ alone. Only Christ's imputed righteousness is acceptable to God and His Sovereign choice.
2Tim 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began"
1Pet 1:2 "Elect *ACCORDING TO* the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ"
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Abigail
You are absolutely right the "Visible" church is full of sinners, heretics and charlatans. Tares amongst the wheat.

But the Elect go to Church too.

Keep on trying Yamil whichever alias you suspend your heresy upon.

The Elect KNOW who is elected or not. You can tell it by the fruit on their tree.

The Elect know God's sovereignty and man's Total Depravity too.

Well naturally!

Since Popery is not true Church it is also, by the same token, NOT true faith.

Jn 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.

This grace *ALONE* frees us to will and to do what is *spiritually* good.

Ro 6:17 But *GOD* be thanked, that ye *WERE*(old man) the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Ro 6:18 Being then made free from sin,(new man) ye became the servants of righteousness.
22 BUT NOW being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Phil 2:13 For *IT IS GOD* which worketh in you both to WILL and to DO of his good pleasure

Lets face it JD, there is only two possible ways. [1] Either God is in complete charge from the beginning, or [2] God needs man to cooperate unto salvation, even prior to Grace or the Holy Spirit's involvement.

[1] Is the Calvinist/Reformed teaching.
[2] Is the Arminian, Pelagian(& Semi), synergist or Free Will teaching.

Your's is # [2].

JD'ism refuses to accept the Bible statement of "dead in sins" and identifies sin as a simple malady.

JD'ism refuses to accept the Bible statement of "by grace you are saved" - also "Not of works...." plus "grace/faith is the gift of God."

JD'ism thereby reduces God's sovereignty to a lesser level, whilst at the same time raising the sinner to a higher level of authority, in the process of salvation.

JD'ism thus introducing mans ability to being essential to salvation.

I wonder which definition of "faith" these guys are referring to?

Quote
2] "But religion is really an act of courage — to submit, to surrender, to be vulnerable to the other, to that which is beyond yourself."

Does God and His grace play any part in this type of religion???

Psalm 94:22 "But the LORD is my defence; and my God is the rock of my refuge."

IF Christ's Crucifiction has ANY benefit in your system - Then who will it be a benefit too - the saved or the reprobate???

If you say the saved then that is what Calvinism says.

If you say the saved and the unsaved then are you into Universalism???

This has nothing to do with heavenly rewards or our ability to discern them, by virtue of our earthly effort.

Matthew 7:16 "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."

And what about......

2] Otherwise we are ascribing "greater" or "lesser" degrees of being with God in heaven.

3] There is no academic or human skill level which directly relates to reward in heaven.

4] Our judgment of "works" and "reward" is untenable in this instance.

Whatever your doctrine it is definitly a task that the church should be involved in.

at