John UK wrote:
It is His Word, God's precious Word,
It stands for ever true:
"When I the Lord shall see the blood,
I will pass over you."
By Christ, the sinless Lamb of God,
The precious blood was shed,
When He fulfilled God's holy Word,
And suffered in our stead.

Faks wrote:
Jesus is propitiation for all our sins. For our past sins upon conversion, and our sins after conversion if and as we confess and repent of them, according to the scriptures.
If we do not confess and repent, we will die spiritually. Gradually and slowly die as we QUENCH the HS and become lukewarm until finally Jesus just vomits us out of the body.

So if you fail to confess some of the myriads of sins that you commit following conversion, you are condemned, correct? How many sins? Does the first that you commit then become the tipping point or is 7 the number? This verse no doubt confounds someone such as yourself: John 6:39, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

It would appear that the god you serve gives you to his son who can not raise you up on the last day but in fact may actually lose you.

John UK wrote:
Wow you're a real funny dude.
There are something like 300,000 sermons here on this site, and none of them disagree with my position on atonement in regard to the wrath of God.
However, if you care to ask your questions, one at a time, I will endeavour to answer them, seeing as my desire is to help you.
Let's start with the first question, which is...?

Walker wrote:
Faks is a Roman Catholic.
He does salvation by works according to his previous posts.

Faks wrote:
(point being, the second Adam removed the penalty of original sin, giving everyone in Christ a fresh start, spiritual life, and forgiveness of present and future sin through repentance and faith in the blood of Jesus to cleanse and renew. This isn't universal salvation but victory over original sin, also over committed sin which is repented of. We can still fall, as Adam and Eve fell, and die spiritual

1 John 1:10, "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

1 John 2:4, "He that saith, I know him and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar and truth is not in him."

Faks wrote:
The Father consented, as did Jesus, to the sacrifice, that the Second Adam might undo what the First Adam had done, and that the BLOOD of a perfect sacrifice might cleanse repentant believers of PAST sins, to walk in the Holy Spirit in newness of life.
Rev. 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the de

Mike wrote:
Maybe it's a terminology problem. Wrath implies furious anger. While Jesus took the punishment due us, the Father was not angry with him in the process.

Neil wrote:
Major assumption: that these students have faith in the 1st place. Now if they do, then how can any fool of a schoolteacher take away what God has granted (Acts 11:18), unless it was never there to start with?

Faks wrote:
...not by the Father pouring wrath on Jesus, one of those old wives tales going around, with the dangerous conclusion that since sins are all "paid for in advance," by a carefully measured punishment of suffering, that salvation for the "chosen" is an irrevocable done deal.

Do you not yet understand Isaiah 53:10-11, "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: When thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, He shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: By his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; For he shall bear their iniquities."

1 Cor 15:3-4, "...how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again according to the scriptures:"

Faks wrote:
God doesn't look into the future, see all the sins of his "chosen" and then proceed to punish Jesus for every one of those sins.

You are sorely mistaken. Read Isaiah 53 and specifically verse 5, "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."

Who is being prophesied about and what sins do you think?

If God does what you have asserted then who pays for your sins following your conversion? If not Christ, you are in big trouble.

v6, "...and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."

v10, "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin..."

v11, "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied"

Faks wrote:
Limited Atonement. 100 percent heresy.

The angel speaking to Jospeh didn't think atonement was universal:

Matt 2:21, "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."

Who is going to save whom? Jesus will save His people from their sins. Who then won't be saved? The rest.

Scripture is replete with examples. Here is another verse I like:

1 John 1:7, "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his son cleanseth us from all sin."

Whose sins are cleansed? It's the recipients of John's epistle: believers. This verse speaks of relationship with Christ through His shed blood.

Faks wrote:
Perseverance of the Saints. Heresy. Judas is in Hell. He didn't persevere. Nor did Solomon, Saul, Demas, the lazy servant, 5 foolish virgins, nor many others.

Psalm 97:10, "Ye that love the Lord, hate evil:
he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.

John 10:26, "But ye believe not, *because* yea are not of my sheep, as I said unto you, ***My Sheep*** hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

John for Jesus wrote:
No, it's more biblical to say God predestined that believers would be saved and not that He predestined anyone to have to believe.

Acts 4:27-28, "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

God predetermined the cross and positioned Pilate, the Gentiles, and the people of Israel there to that end.

Neil wrote:
Very simple:
Affirming the Consequent (if A then B; B; therefore, A). [E.g. If it rains,the streets get wet. The streets are wet, therefore, it rained.]
Hasty Generalization (if true for some A, true for all A) [E.g. Some geese are white; therefore, all geese are white]
I submit that all dogmatic empirical scientific claims commit one of these. Bertrand Russell, a famous atheist, even admitted as much in his essay, "Is Science Superstitious?"

Neil wrote:
And BTW, there is nothing rational about radiometic dating & other so-called proofs of Old Earth; they commit a classic fallacy in reasoning from these, but Darwinists are either too stupid, or more likely, too proud to admit it.
Ref:[URL=http://ecalvinbeisner.com/freearticles/Logicsummary.pdf]]]Logic Quick Reference[/URL]

Dopey wrote:
thomas,
Isaiah 55:11
"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it."
Two of the things God's accomplishes with His Word are:
1. Setting people free from their sin.
2. Hardening people's hearts so they can never turn away from their sin.
1. = a wise male/female
2. = a fool male/female

Dreich wrote:
The definition points listed below for "logic" are from dictionary.com
1. the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.
# God does not need to investigate He creates.
2. a particular method of reasoning or argumentation:
# God does not need to evaluate differences He knows the perfect solution for everything.
3. the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study.
# God knows all and is perfect in application of all.
4. reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions:
# God is omnipotent, omniscient therefore requires no reasoning!
5. convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness:
# God IS truth!

Also, can God deny Himself?

Dreich wrote:
If you have the power of foreknowledge and the power to create verbally - Why would you require logic?

Dreich wrote:
ps. Mortals don't have the powers of creation and foreknowledge.

Dopey wrote:
2 Chronicles 32:24-26
In those days Hezekiah was sick to the death, and prayed unto the LORD: and he spake unto him, and he gave him a sign. But Hezekiah rendered not again according to the benefit [done] unto him; for his heart was lifted up: therefore there was wrath upon him, and upon Judah and Jerusalem. Notwithstanding Hezekiah humbled himself for the pride of his heart, [both] he and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the wrath of the LORD came not upon them in the days of Hezekiah.

John for Jesus wrote:
It's illogical to believe God is not perfectly logical. Even when we can't make sense of what He does, there is a logical reason for Him doing it. Also, when laws were made, way back when, to criminalize bank robbery, it was predestined that whoever in The future who does so will be arrested. It didn't predestined who would rob a bank! God predestined believers to be saved, not that they would believe.