Welcome to the Frederick Faith Debate on Frederick's News Radio 930 WFMD. I'm your host and moderator Troy Skinner. The Frederick Faith Debate is designed to be an open and honest forum for our local faith community leaders to share and discuss their views of the truth. Thomas Jefferson once said, the clash of ideas is a sound of freedom. And in that spirit, we will seriously wrestle with important ideas, possibly even disagreeing with one another. The hope is that through our wrestling, you will develop a better understanding of the truth about the most important issues that face us in this world. Frederick Faith Debate is brought to us by All Shred, mobile document destruction. All Shred, they sell security. This week on our panel, we have back with us Jonathan Schweitzer from Crossroad Valley Chapel in Frederick. We also have Timothy Fisher, the pastor of Walkersville Brethren in Christ Church, and from Redeemer International Family Church, the pastor there, Chris Giesland. Thank you all for being with us today. The topic is, if you go to church, If not, why not? And what should area pastors be thinking about you and trying to convince you to come to church? How important is it for a church to be in a growth mode? If a church has had 50 members for the last 30 years, is that a problem? Should they be striving to have 100? She's striving to have a thousand. What about these, what are called mega churches, where there are thousands and thousands and thousands of people, sometimes 10, 15, 20,000 people belonging to a particular church. And if people aren't going to church, if churches are dying, for example, if their numbers are dwindling, what's causing that sort of a thing? So we're primarily right now going to focus on what are the things that churches could be doing, should be doing, in order to attract people to come and worship on Sundays and join the membership rolls. Real quickly, I'm going to go around. I want to get a sense and give the audience an opportunity to get a sense of the size of the churches that are represented here. John Switzer, Cross River Valley Chapel, has how many people on a Sunday that worship? We have probably between 50 and 60 right now. Okay, and how many at Walkersville Brethren? Well, at our church we have a Saturday night service, so we have a Saturday night service at 7 and then two on Sunday morning. So we have about 175 among the three services. Okay. And Chris? We have 175 in one service. Okay. On Sunday morning. Okay. uh... the the last two churches are kind of the prototypical american church right somewhere between a hundred two hundred members is kind of like a standard size church and the john's church uh... uh... is is growing in emerging i know when i first met john i think he had i don't know what four-and-a-half people worshiping And it's been an issue for John, and I'm sure an issue for all the churches represented here, to try to attract more people. So what are some things? We'll start there. What are some things? Well, maybe we shouldn't start there. Let me ask you this. And I'll start with you, Chris. Are you concerned about this? Do you desire for your church to be larger? Well, I desire to fulfill a great commission, which Jesus spoke and said, go and make disciples. And so our whole key is to make disciples. And we don't want to pull people from other churches. But two-thirds of born-again Christians don't attend church. So we see those as unchurched believers. So we do go after them, and then we go after people that don't know Christ as their Lord and Savior. And primarily, we try to find a need, and then meet that need, and pull them in and share Christ. Tim, how about you? Is adding to the numbers a focus, a concern that you think about on a daily, weekly, monthly basis? I think you're right. The first time I probably think about it on a daily basis, I know that when I'm sensing momentum in the church and seeing new faces and seeing unchurched believers come in and those who are still exploring the Christian faith, whenever I see some momentum and some growth, I'm constantly thinking, okay, how do we sustain this so that those that are coming in find something that's meeting a need in their lives through this church and through its ministries? And John Switzer, what about you at your church? focus yeah Christ said that that he came that we would bear fruit and in his his goal and desire in our lives is that we bear fruit in that word fruit is defined two ways in the Hebrew it's defined one as fruit as in my life has changed and and I'm more gentle I'm more kind more loving more full of peace and joy and the same exact word is used for fruit is used for harvest and as in reaching new people for the sake of Christ. And if we're not bearing fruit in either of those two ways, then we're simply, according to Christ, worthy of being cut off and thrown into the fire. There's a requirement that God our Father has that we be growing people, that we be changing. And by the power of his spirit inside of us, there's every reason for us to anticipate that, not to be anxious about it, but to anticipate that it is gonna be happening. Alright, Tim, I'll start with you. What are some initiatives, some things that your church has done, is currently doing right now in a, and if this is the wrong way to phrase it, please correct me, to recruit new members, new churchgoers? Okay, I think one of the things that comes to mind is we initiated a Saturday night service, and we weren't really sure how that was going to turn out or what kind of people would desire a Saturday night service. And we've been pleased to see the folks that have come to that particular service. Some of them were unchurched believers. So, we've sort of seen some fruit in that service. Another thing that we've done for the eight years that I've been there is Kindness Outreach, where we want people to get beyond the four walls of the church and have interaction with those outside in the community. So, we've done things like wash windshields, we've handed out Jesus videos, we've handed out drinks, we've bought snow cones for our community, anything to where we can get face-to-face with people in the community. And I remember going to a picnic this past summer, and the first question that was asked me when I walked among this group of men that I didn't know was, uh... you know the beers in the cooler help yourself uh... typically i don't get uh... you know that kind of imitation so it's kind of neat now but when the introductions were made one of the first things that someone said to me was oh wait a minute i think i know you uh... your church was giving out snow cones uh... about a month ago so there was that immediate connection the perhaps i would have had had we not done the kindness outreach. And then the third big initiative that we do is that we really encourage the people in the church to be active in evangelism, to share their faith, to invite them to church. So there are at least three times a year that we call big days, and these are just days that we recognize that there's going to be more people. Probably our biggest day of the year is our Christmas Eve services. That's not true in all churches. Some churches have bigger days on other seasons of the year, but for us, it's Christmas Eve, Easter, and around the fall time of the year. So there's three times a year that we recognize the momentum's just naturally gonna be there. What can we do to build upon it so we really push for people to invite their unchurched friends and neighbors and relatives and acquaintances? Chris, you have a church that's similar in size to Tim's church, and one of the things that Tim's church has done is they have three different meeting times for worship, and you're sticking with just the one. Have you considered having additional service times? Yeah, that's certainly an option. In fact, in our meeting place that we're at, we've just about maxed it out, so we're looking at that. I believe in multiple services. In fact, I've quizzed Tim a lot about this whole subject, about making that transition, because it is a major transition to go to multiple services. So that's one option. But our biggest outreach right now is actually a joint venture with another church in the area, El Shaddai congregation, which is a Messianic Jewish congregation. Pastor Todd Westfall is there. And we, in the past three months, four months, we've seen over 600 people come to get free clothes. and we're able to share the gospel with them. And most of those people are unchurched people. Most of them are poor. We don't make any, you know, there's no stipulation, wealthy, poor, whatever. We just give away clothes every Saturday between 3 and 6 p.m. and we share Christ with all those that come and get the clothes. We've had 600 and many of those return week after week or, you know, a month from now or whatever. And, you know, we believe that we're going to build a relationship with them and there is an opportunity to close that net on them evangelically, so. And what are some of the things Crossroads Valley Chapel is doing, John? We just came off of, in January, our official grand opening service, and we were encouraged by those that we look to for counsel in doing a church plant to do a large grand opening. And we actually had over a hundred people out that day, kind of doubled the number that was there. And we've had several families that decided to stick as a result of that. And that was basically just distributing flyers, any and everywhere there in Boundary Creek. We had some signs up in different places and the response was, you know, people that we had never met before you know, they just came to see what was there. And I think the idea behind that is to create, you know, because it's a grand opening, people don't feel like they have to come and make a commitment right away, but they can just come and, you know, see what's going on and participate in it. And off of that, we've been of the opinion that the most important thing is really what I see you doing there, Chris, and you're hinting at it, is just to be out touching the needs right where people are. I mean, if we care about those who are not churched, then we just need to be out there caring for them, praying for them, interacting with them, giving in whatever way possible. And it seems to me that that's always going to be the most important thing to do. And that's what we're gearing up for. gearing up our ongoing outreach and, you know, we're thinking in terms of just going door-to-door and talking to people and interacting with them straightforward about those kinds of things. Now, I know that there's at least one denomination that believes that worship should take place, Christian worship should take place on Saturday. And Messianic Jewish congregations, I think, worship on Saturday for the most part, unless I'm misunderstanding it, but I think that that's true. But most of the other mainline Christian denominations think that worship should take place on Sunday. So, is it selling out at all to have a service available on Saturday? And should we have services available on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday as well? Tim, your church has a service on Saturday, so I guess I'll let you answer that question. well it's kinda nice to know we keep both groups happy with that that's good i don't know i guess i've never really really thought of it in those terms of selling out for us it was just uh... a matter that we had grown uh... beyond our two services and we realized that even though our early service on sunday was about half ford best that our service that's going to bring growth to the church is the 11 o'clock service. It's the most traditional time. So we really didn't have an opportunity to add a third service on a Sunday morning, and Saturday night was just something that intrigued me. Okay. Anybody else have a comment on that question? I don't want to make it seem like I'm picking on Tim, but it's, you know... And yet at the same time, I mean, we don't make a big deal about the day. I mean, I don't believe it's more scriptural to worship on Saturday than Sunday. You know, it's just three available times. Yeah, I was just going to say that, um, increasingly in our society, there's quite a few people that cannot make it on Sunday mornings just because their job is that way. And our society doesn't hold the Sabbath as holy. And that being the case, I think that we are, um, just being, uh, irresponsible if we don't think of ways to facilitate ministering to and reaching out to, uh, you know, make providing a place for those people to be cared for spiritually. I was just going to say one other thing is we're actually starting a house church up in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania and that meets on Mondays for instance and it's some people that used to be with us in Frederick and now they're there and so now we've started an outreach there and that is their service. That's their primary service is in that house church. So I don't think we celebrate Sunday because it is the day of the Lord's resurrection. most of us, but every day we celebrate Christ's resurrection every day. Any way we can reach out to touch and minister to people, we need to do it. Now, all of you in a variety of different ways touched on the idea of whether it was going out and meeting people where they are, preparing and teaching and training your members how to evangelize and go out and do outreach to the community, those sorts of things. I know that a lot of churches, you know, they'll do small group studies and they'll invite, you know, the neighbors, they'll encourage them to invite the neighbors, those sorts of things. But none of you mentioned that specifically. I don't know if, is that a church growth strategy? Is that just, is that what, or is that just, I mean, what is, That's a big church growth strategy. I mean, I believe that we need to be planting and releasing people to plant. Peter Wagner from Fuller Seminary, used to be from Fuller Seminary, church growth, he said the greatest way we can reach new people is to plant new churches. And now we need to see and get out of the box about what those churches are. And I believe it can be a house church, it can be a church that meets in a movie theater, it could be a church that meets in a hotel. uh... you know whatever we and we need to be equipping people raising them up and then sending them out to start new churches you know we got into this just a little bit uh... couple weeks ago the question is whether the church grows the fastest when big churches get bigger whether it grows the fastest when churches multiply and plant new churches. And again, I'm of the opinion, and church history seems to bear out, that the church grows the fastest in the context of doing new church plants and doing new church plants. Because what happens is everybody in a small new church plant is going to have a opportunity, both to minister and to serve. And what that means, then, is that the church leadership is that much closer to the neighbors and the people out there, instead of being in an office somewhere, coming up with great strategies to marshal the masses of their congregation to. You've got people that are out there interacting with the lost, because they have to. In order to survive, I'll verify, in order to survive, you gotta be out there ministering, touching the people. And I think that that's what Christ intended when he sent his disciples out, that we would interact with the lost. I agree with John 100%. You know, if you go through Frederick County, you'll see all these small little Methodist buildings all over the place. And that was during the greatest revival of this nation. And here were farmers working all week long and then pastoring a church with just the people that could get there every Sunday. And we need to get back to that model, I think, of seeing some way to equip in the local church and then release believers to plant new churches. the voice of chris gieseland a pastor at redeemer international family church uh... right before that you heard jonathan switzer pastor crossroads valley uh... chapel and uh... from walkers will brethren in christ church uh... pastor timothy fisher so the time for a skinner you're listening to the further faith debate on frederick's news radio nine thirty w fmd we're talking about why you're not in church so i'm asking that question what do you hear or what do you put one what do you suspect into where you told are the reasons, Chris, people are not going to church. Well, I think it just needs to be relevant to what people's needs are. But I don't think you have to wash or make the gospel lukewarm. I think people are looking for something to be committed to. I think when Jesus said, go and make disciples, he was telling us, don't water it down. you know, tell people, you know, deny yourself, pick up your cross, and follow after Jesus. And that is the main message. I think people are looking for something to give their lives to, and I believe it's going to be a committed, passionate message of complete surrender to the purpose, plan, and pursuit of God. I run into a lot of people who are sometimes churchgoers or they don't seem to be particularly committed to going to church. They might go more regularly than I know, but those sorts of people seem to, when they do talk about going to church, what they talk about is, boy, the music was really hopping. It was fun. It was entertaining. All my friends were there. It was great to catch up on old times or whatever. Those are the kinds of things that seem to draw people at least sometimes to church. Do we cater to those people, or is that a trap being set? You know what, I just want to speak to that just briefly. It occurs to me that there's a marrying kind and there's a dating kind. And, you know, when it comes time to give your life to Christ, You do it because there is something that happens in a spiritual way deep in your heart. It's not phenomenal music, it's not the greatest preaching in the world, but whatever was said or whatever was communicated in the music broke through whatever my defenses were, and I realized there was a God in heaven that loved me and wanted to be with me. And it seems to me that those people that are gonna really stick and be committed in a church will do so because at the heart level, God, Christ, Jesus has come to live inside and they know it. And they're no longer their own. Their lives have been bought with a price, and that's what makes the difference. And there's definitely people in general, I think, will most respond to somebody that's a good leader, somebody that, you know, Dots his eyes and crosses his teeth. He works hard. He's able to, you know, interact with people. Leadership is definitely an important part of the process in terms of drawing people and building an organization. But what makes the difference between those Christians that stick is not going to be the great music. It's not going to be all these other things. It's going to be that Christ has grabbed ahold of them and they're going to church, not because they feel like they have to or because somebody's kind of you know, made it beautiful enough that they feel like they want to stick around, but because they're really touched at a heart level. now about ninety-plus percent of americans say they believe in in god or some sort of a god and somewhere on near eighty percent uh... would identify themselves as christians uh... little over seventy percent of those believe that jesus actually died rose from the dead but you're a case of a christian don't believe that but that the percentage to believe that a smaller than those who call themselves christian so there's there's a wiggle room here apparently yeah so are we worried about reaching all those people that believe in a god we were about reaching everybody and when i say reach i mean during the worship service okay is the worship service uh... for those who are already believers possibly believers with the screwed up theology or if you want me is it a party for everybody or is it a or is it a worship service for those are already part of the family Well, there could be some disagreement about this, but I believe that we're there to worship the Lord Jesus Christ, that our worship needs to be directed to Him. And as we direct it to Him, then His presence is manifest, and that attracts people. It might seem weird to them, they might feel like, I've never been around something like this before, but they know that there's something different. I think that when we come into worship, it is to worship the King of King and the Lord of Lords that we have an audience of one, not an audience of seekers, but the audience is our God, our Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who we're worshiping. And then, you know, as we lift him up, he draws men to himself. Now, Chris suggested there might be disagreement. Tim, do you disagree or agree with that? you know i i do agree with that uh... one thing that that came to my mind is that when jesus was on our thinking he came to do the father's will only had a definite agenda and as he would speak that message in that crowd of thousands of people there were some who believe some who didn't believe there were those who came uh... to do nothing but criticize try to trap in and in his words but yet jesus was faithful to the message And then, you know, we don't see them ever saying, oh my goodness, there's more seekers here than believers. I've got to adjust the message. And what I liked about what Chris said a few moments ago is that we need to realize the message is already relevant. We don't need to try to make it relevant. It already is. And I think that what I would say to those who maybe aren't in church is my experience has been that those that have been unchurched who have come to church and have stayed have just simply gave it a shot where they said, oh my goodness, where has this been all of my life? You're saying things that really do make sense and really are relevant. For the first time in history, perhaps, people's time means more to them than money. So if they're going to get out of bed on a Sunday morning or sacrifice something else, even if it's just sitting at the breakfast table with a cup of coffee and a newspaper, they're going to do that only if there's something relevant for their lives. So the worship is the worship, that's not where we're trying to accommodate somebody's predisposition or where we think they are. It's the extra worship stuff that we're talking about, where we're trying to reach out to them, meet them where they are, evangelize them in small group settings or one-on-one settings, going door-to-door, knocking on, you know, and talking to them, what's your relationship with your Savior Jesus Christ? Those sorts of things. But once the worship service starts, You're not trying to accommodate those and make those who might be uncomfortable, might not be believers, feel comfortable. Is that what I'm hearing? I mean, my idea of being seeker-sensitive, in fact, Tom Rainer wrote a book called Surprising Insights from the Unchurched, and one of the things that he found out was that those who were unchurched who came into church didn't want the message watered down. They were there to experience, what does the Bible say about this era of my life? They were there to, as John said, they said, don't be afraid to preach commitment to us. It's almost like if I'm going to a French restaurant, I don't want it to look like McDonald's. I want it to be a little bit different, a little bit uncomfortable from what I'm used to. So people that are coming into church that have been unchurched, They're not expecting to be totally comfortable, but what they are saying to us, I believe, is make it understandable. I mean, if we use huge words, and we could certainly do that from our seminary days, that's not what they're looking for. But at the same time, they're not looking for something that's watered down. They want to know what the Bible has to say. Who is this person of Christ? We have a couple of minutes left, and I did want to touch on this before we run out of time. John Schweitzer alluded to it when he had his grand opening. And they went out and they distributed flyers, they got the word out, they quote-unquote advertised. Grand opening and distributing flyers and advertising, those are marketing things that businesses do. So is it appropriate at some level, I'm guessing that John, you would say yes, for a church to function while of some sort of a business model to advertise and get the word out in secular ways. Yeah, you know, we live in an interesting society here in the United States in that everything, we have a very large private world, whereas in many other cultures and in biblical times and olden times, as it were, You didn't have to pay big money to get a little bit of airtime on WFRE or WFMD. You didn't have to pay big money in order to, you know, get a billboard or to get a sign and things like that. And I think that the bottom line is this, is we have to find a way to engage honest people in the marketplace where they live their lives. We have to uh... at the what what we use the body of christ looking to do is to interact with the real people about jesus christ because he simply uh... is more relevant to our lives and then just about anything else and if that means passing out flyers getting on the radio whatever it means then you know that's definitely a uh... uh... viable alternative i don't know if we have thirty seconds i agree with john but also disagree my first church plant i did a lot of advertising this when we've done none Now, I plan to the other church here in Frederick as well, so this will have been a little bit different. But I look at that first, that Book of Acts church, and that is our model. There was a lot of prayer. There was a lot of friendship evangelism, which both John and Tim talked about. And it was very powerful, just people reaching out to people, but allowing the Lord to move. And I mean, part of that's because of our budget, I have to say, so. Anyway, but I'll tell you this John plant in the church and Tim. He took his father-in-law's church they you know, both of them are I appreciate them because They've done they've really extended the kingdom of God in great ways here in Frederick. Well, it's good to have Chris won the draw He got the last word You've been listening to the Frederick Faith Debate on Frederick's News Radio 930 WFMD. We're actually going to pick up on this a little bit on next week's show and talk about once we get the bodies in the pews, how do we keep them there? That's next week on Frederick Faith Debate on Frederick's News Radio 930 WFMD. Thanks for listening and God bless.