Let's start off with a few questions just about you personally, so we get a chance to know you a little bit. Tell us about your family background, where you grew up, that kind of thing. Yeah, so I grew up in the city of Wilmington, which is a small town in South L.A. It's next to the city of Long Beach, if you're familiar with that city. It sits on the port of Los Angeles. And it's, you know, it's a small community, primarily Hispanic, you know, typical, you know, what we call a hood in L.A., you know, a lot of violence, you know, drug dealing, gangs, stuff like that. I grew up with, primarily with my mother, a single mother. She came from Michoacan, Mexico when she was 10 years old with her brothers and sisters and my grandma. And, you know, they lived in Wilmington all their life, and then I was raised there as well. You know, grew up Pentecostal, grew up in a Spanish-speaking Pentecostal church. And then I, you know, I abandoned the faith when I was a teenager, joined the street gang, and was involved with that for, you know, my adolescent years. And then came to faith in 2008 through Calvary Chapel. Okay, very good. What led to you beginning to attend Calvary Chapel? So by this time, most of my mom's brothers and sisters were all saved and one of them opened up a tea house and it was kind of like she had a tea house and she would hire baristas from the church, like young adults, and they would kind of evangelize. So it was kind of like a mission-based business where they would incorporate their faith And one of the baristas, his name's Mike, he would, every time I would walk in there, he would, you know, try to share the gospel with me. And I would, you know, I just, I didn't want to have nothing to do with it. And, you know, I felt like I knew the Christian faith. So I was like, ah, this guy's trying to teach me what I already know. And, you know, I thought I was going to heaven because I made the prayer of salvation when I was a kid, right? So I was like, you're automatically in, right? And so, you know, he kept working on me, kept kind of inviting me to like, not church but like little like backyard gatherings with other young adults and eventually over the period of a year is when I converted. Okay, very good. Obviously your sermon today you were talking about personal witness, dealing with people in your life. Do you think that that background shaped some of how you see that? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think so. You know, seeing people who are committed to personal evangelism uh... and i do think you know to some degree or another certain people are more gifted at it than others or what not uh... and this individual definitely is because he's led a lot of people to Christ uh... but yeah I've definitely seen the power of personal witness you know through men like him very good well let's see you said Calvary Chapel 2008 is that correct? so from Calvary Chapel 2008 to RCUS 2024 that's a little bit of a journey can you fill that one in for us? Calvary Chapel, they have a commitment of teaching through the Bible. They encourage Bible study. They encourage the study of apologetics. The first ministry that I joined was the evangelism ministry. They would go out on Fridays and Saturdays, Friday nights and Saturday mornings. We were going to Hollywood. We were going to the Sunset Strip, where there's all kinds of stuff going on right there. And on the way over there, we were in a car together, like the ministry people, and somebody had brought up Calvinism. And up until that point, I had been studying apologetics primarily through YouTube. Prior to coming to the faith, I never read or anything like that, so I would watch YouTube videos of Walter Martin, and I would watch these different debates that he would have. But when somebody mentioned Calvinism, I was like, oh, I hadn't heard of that one. And so I was eager to go home and study it after I heard. But they were speaking very negatively of it. And so I was like, OK, this is going to be an interesting one. But what was interesting was that when I was Googling who the major proponents were of Calvinism, and it was like Charles Spurge. And I was like, they quote these people all the time at Calvary Chapel. And they sell their books at the bookstores. I'm like, that's weird. These people are basically talking of them as if they were heretics or something like that. And so I began wanting to research more and I found a little five part series on YouTube by R.C. Sproul on Tulip. And as he was teaching that, I was kind of worried because I was like, this guy's a heretic and I'm agreeing with what he's saying, like it sounds beautiful. That's a problem. And so yeah, eventually I just like, I kept, you know, digging in and there was a friend of the family who was previously at Calvary Chapel with my family, but now was attending a, like a reformed Baptist church in the city of Wilmington. And it just so happened they were going through a Saturday Bible study on Chosen by God by R.C. Sproul. And so I started attending that. And that was pretty much like where I was, you know, reconverted, or the second birth, right? I became Reformed, or at least Calvinistic. And so I was there for a while. I was asked to teach Bible studies, and then eventually I was asked to preach in the pulpit. That's kind of where I learned, you know, basics of like sermon preparation and things like that. And eventually I kept studying and studying and I just became more and more convinced of like, you know, what we understand as, you know, fully or reformed Christianity. And so I ended up going to a reformed church called the Emanuel Reformed Church which was a RCA congregation at the time. And that was where I met Rudy Rubio. And together we started going to seminary, to Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan. And we decided to plant a church together in 2017, like halfway through seminary. Okay, very good. So what year did you graduate from seminary? 2019. Yeah, from 2015 to 2019. that you started together in 2017, that's RCLA? That's RCLA, yeah. Okay, all right, well tell us a little bit about how things have gone since 2017. So we started meeting in the park like in the summer of 2017 and then eventually the following year we started meeting inside the Lutheran building that we're in now. And, you know, little by little, we just, you know, started teaching the Bible, you know, taught the Book of Romans, taught the Book of Acts, from the pulpit and from Bible studies, you know, little small groups. And, you know, we would try and get as involved in the community as we could. So, like, we would hold Bible studies at coffee shops in the neighborhood. And then we would go to the city hall and ask them if they wanted to do, like, a cleanup day or stuff like that, which ended up turning into what's called the Linwood Commitment now. And that was basically our MO. It was pretty simple, just teach the Bible and be as missional as we could in the city. And right now we have maybe 80 members, adult members, and we're trying to plant another one now in the city of Wilmington where I grew up. Okay, very good. So let me break into the planting of RCLA a little bit first. So, you know, you start having Bible studies. Did you have a group of people you already knew were interested, or was it cold turkeys, zero leads? No, they gave us, from the church that sent us, they gave us, I want to say, about a dozen adults and some kids. Okay. Yeah, and that was like our initial core team. and you know my my co-pastor Rudy Rubio he's really good with like the social media and stuff like that so he really started putting the word out and you know there was there was already certain people kind of in the LA area that were kind of looking for a reformed church that was going to be centered on being missional in the inner city and so there was a few people that joined us because of that initially as well but yeah I think it was it was just that that core team at first and then it just kind of That's helpful to know, you know, sometimes people start from absolute zero and that's very different from starting with a core group already of people who are committed and who are going to help out. What would you say that the core group did, you know, apart from being present and making sure you had people at the first worship service in the park, how else did they contribute? So very early on we tried to you know train them to be missional and I mean we there was so much that we didn't know so it was like our reading list was so butchered it was like everything from like John Calvin from theology and then you know you know like some Bill Hybel type stuff for like mission because there's there's not a whole lot of reform stuff you know for And so we try to train them to just be, you know, missional where they are, where they live, where they work, where they play, you know, that kind of idea. And they definitely were missional, that initial core group. But, you know, with the church plant, everybody kind of has to do everything, you know, set up, tear down. everybody spread so thin that I feel like we were just doing everything. Everybody was just doing everything other than preaching. That was the only thing that they weren't doing. Absolutely. So obviously this started under the oversight of the RCA and now you're no longer under the oversight of the RCA. Tell us a little bit about that. So the RCA, when I first went in there, I didn't know anything about it. I thought it was just a reformed denomination. But I quickly, especially when I got to seminary, I quickly found out that, you know, it had very serious liberal progressive inclinations in some, with some people. Even the more conservative individuals were still very much influenced by, you know, seeker sensitive, you know, type of ideologies and they had really abandoned a lot of their reformed heritage. but it became extremely problematic with the LGBTQ issues, where you had individuals that wanted to marry and ordain people of that community. And there were some already, I can remember at least one or two churches that were already marrying individuals like that, and even the clergy there were practicing it themselves. we began a committee where we were going to try and push them out. And that battle went on for quite some time, but eventually it just seemed like it was like a war of attrition because most of the people, even if they were conservative, their mentality was like, well, we're conservative on the issue, but we're willing to work with them for the sake of the greater kingdom or whatnot. And so we were like, yeah, okay, this is not the place for us. And so that's why we ended up leaving. absolutely understood in case anybody doesn't already know the RCA is the Reformed Church in America that's the denomination that Dutch immigrants started when they first came over and then when you had another big wave of immigration in the 1800s already in the 1800s those more conservative more recent immigrants started the CRC instead of joining the RCA they knew there were I mean in the 1800s they knew there were some problems and they wouldn't be able to join in along with them. So that kind of tells you when some CRC churches have now merged into RCA churches that that's an indication that there's been some slide in the CRC as well. Although in the CRC the fight still continues. In the RCA it seems like the fight is over and the forces of darkness have won. Just bringing everybody up to speed on that one. So from the RCA then you leave and at that point you're an independent reformed congregation. How do you come to the Western classes of the RCUS? So we were looking for a denominational home. We had friends and pastor friends in different denominations and you know there was a lot of reasons to join other ones and also reasons not to just wasn't fitting for us. And we just eventually, I don't even think we knew about the RCUS. Oh, you probably didn't. Nobody does. We're going to change that at the tricentennial. Yeah, I think it was the individual that reached out to us first was, I forget his name. I don't think he's in the RCUS anymore. The guy that was at... Oh, Sam Pound? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was the one that initially had emailed us. And we were just kind of so burnt out of like, denomination shopping that we didn't even like, I think we kind of ignored the email. And then he reached out again and then I think Rudy was the one that replied to him and had a little chat with him. And then we connected with Wayne Johnson and I believe Wayne came down, I believe he was the first one to come down and meet with us. And I honestly didn't think we were going to join the RCUS because we were just kind of like tired of like, you know, searching. And I think at the time somebody had mentioned, you know, R.C. Sproul's church is not part of the denomination. We were like, really? Maybe we could just be independent too. But we didn't want that. So, you know, we gave it a shot and we're glad we did. All right. So I was actually present at your examination. I was one of the people putting you on the hot seat. How did all of that go? I thought it went well. I thought it was good. Obviously, it's a little nerve-wracking because you don't know what to expect, but I think once we were there, I think it all went pretty smooth. Well, and so far you feel fairly welcome? Yeah, absolutely. I feel like it's been nothing but a blessing being here, you know, and even our church is very happy with the move. you know, all the members and yeah, couldn't be happier. Very good. That's wonderful to hear. So speaking about our CLA, um, what do you do for outreach now? You know, you're a little more established. Um, you're not meeting in the park anymore. So how do you reach out into the community? What are the things you do? So in terms of evangelism, like just strictly evangelism, uh, every, the last Saturday of the month, We do an outreach at 10 a.m., so we'll go out. We do different things. So, like, for example, a couple months ago, we posted up on a street corner, like, the biggest major intersection in the city of Wilmington. You know, we put up a canopy, table, chairs. We had signs that had little gospel messages. We had a megaphone, and then we had these gift baskets that had like pens, stickers, gospel tracks, English and Spanish, just like a mixture of stuff. And we would have, when people would stop at the stoplight, we would have men run up to people and kind of distribute the bags to the cars. Meanwhile, we're preaching and holding the signs, and we did that for about two hours. Yeah, and then this next one, I think we're going to go to a laundromat. And same thing, we'll put together like a little gift basket, maybe like a bag of quarters, some laundry products, and then also church material. And then just go into the different laundromats and just introduce ourselves, give them a gift, let them know who we are, why we're doing this. And so it's kind of like a a combination of evangelism with mercy ministry. During COVID, we did a lot of food distribution, food drive, and we've tried everything. We've just tried to see what it is that will connect with people. It's pretty difficult, specifically in Wilmington, because that city doesn't have anything in terms of shopping mall or anything. The parks are like gang zones, you don't have families playing outside, so it becomes difficult to really engage the community. So we've got to get really creative. We definitely still try to stay busy. Do you need a permit for the station that you did outside with Canopy and everything megaphone? No. Okay. Did you have a lot of people thinking you were trying to get money from them when you're going up to their car window? We do, yeah. We actually even do have people who will like come up and like offer us money and we're like, oh no, we're not collecting money. I think in that community, I think people say, well, I don't go to church, but I give money. So that's kind of like their contribution. Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. So that's church-wide evangelism. Yeah. every, last Saturday of every month, you know you're going to be somewhere, you know you're going to do something, and you usually have something you give people to help them be interested. What about the literature you distribute? Is that something you buy from somewhere? Is that something you create yourself? Both. Both. We'll, like, a lot of the Spanish stuff we'll get from like Ligonier and stuff like that, but we do write our own gospel tracts also that'll have our church information on it. But since it's like a bag, we try to put as much as we can in there, so we do mix it up with different things. Yeah, absolutely. And does it seem like that's been pretty well received? Yeah, I mean, people receive it, but we haven't seen a whole lot of fruit in terms of like people coming to visit us as a result of it, as of yet, you know. But, you know, we know that evangelism is not just about fruitful, it's about being faithful, so, you know, we're fine with that. But, The communities we're in are heavily Roman Catholic and particularly with Mexicans, it's like a cultural identity for them. they're very closed off to hearing about coming to a protestant church. Right. Okay, so if the public evangelism isn't driving people into the church or drawing them in would maybe be a better way to put it. What does lead to you getting new visitors, new members? Primarily social media, I think. Yeah, it's been, so having a heavy social media presence, Instagram, Facebook, you know, like I said, Rudy's very good with that stuff and so I think it becomes kind of contagious where other people in the church start sharing whatever stuff we put out and just having that strong internet presence and people, believe it or not, there are people that look up Reform Church in those areas. They see that it's like, oh, I didn't even know that there was any reformed churches in those neighborhoods. They find it interesting that we're focused there. And so that's kind of what draws the most people in, I think. Okay, that's very interesting. has that been organic, or have you paid for Facebook boosts and things like that? Mostly organic. In the beginning we did, but we found that there's so many bots now, so it's like you would get these clicks and comments, and then you'd want to do a follow-up with the people, and then it was like, I don't think this is a real account. They're not real people. Yeah, well we can't, I don't think we can bring the gospel to AI. Yeah, not yet. Alright, very good. And then you also have some sort of community ministries that you do. What are they? So me personally, I have a mental health group that I lead. And it has nothing to do with like psychology per se, but it's just the spiritual aspect of mental health, right? Because, you know, I struggled in the past with depression and anxiety. And so that's kind of what prompted my desire to kind of, you know, minister in that area. But, you know, when people have, you know, clinical depression or anxiety and they do need medication, you know, then they need medication and whatnot. But I think that at the root of all of those ailments is the problem of, you know, sadness and worry, right? eventually manifest and morph into larger problems, right? But I think that getting it at the root is something and preventing more serious psychological disorders is something that I think we don't emphasize enough in the church sometimes. And so I started teaching through the book of Psalms which is a book that addresses our feelings, it addresses fear and all those subjects. And so I started that mental health group. We started meeting at a pizza parlor first and eventually we moved it back to my house where we meet right now. I've been doing that for about a year, year and a half now. So in the format of that, is that something where people are expected to come for a while and then stop coming and make room for somebody else? Or how do you think about that? No, that one's more of a long-term. Yeah, so like I said, I started in Psalm 1, we're in Psalm 23 right now. That is long-term. Yeah, so it's going to be a while. Yes, I would say so. So, yeah, it's more of a long-term thing. It's like, you know, it's like a small group, you know, people can go and share whatever they want to share, ask questions, and we basically just go through what the Psalms have to say to us about particularly those two issues of the dark night of the soul and worry. Alright, very good. Is the attendance at that group pretty stable? Like it's the same people week to week or do you get a lot of newcomers? We do get some newcomers. The group right now is not exactly the same as it was when we first started. We've had like maybe a couple different couples join us that are new. There's a lot of people that tell me they want to go, but because it's during the week, they can't. So that's something that I've considered maybe doing on the weekend or something. But in LA, when you have something at 7 p.m., it can take people an hour to get there, just 15 minutes away. But yeah, it's steadily growing. Okay, that's wonderful. Do you have any particular resources you use or just standard works on the Psalms? Yeah, primarily it's just, what I do is I, like tonight, so we meet this Wednesday, so the Sunday before, which will be today, I'll prepare the message, like a 15 minute homily on Psalm 23, and then I'll upload it to YouTube, and then I'll send it out to them. They'll watch the video and then we discuss it on Wednesday. Okay, very good. So there's a little bit of a homework element to it. And I have them, whatever psalm we're doing, each person has to memorize one psalm for the next time. Okay, very good. Alright, and what are the other activities that R.C.L.A. does? I mean, I see Rudy Post on social media all the time, and I kind of lose track a little bit. So he does one called Barbershop Theology, where they meet at a barbershop and they're going to the Heidelberg Catechism. And, you know, the owners of the Bible study started going to our church, our members now. And then, so they meet there. And then he'll have another Bible study at his house. I have, like I said, I have one at my house. And we have other members that, once they become members and have kind of show some maturity, we have them lead Bible studies at their houses. And so we encourage kind of a familial atmosphere there, right? food, invite neighbors, etc. It's not just about me and Rudy doing stuff, it's about mobilizing the church to get our mission to. It's been a big thing. How do you train? If somebody starts coming to church, they make a profession of faith, they join. How do you train them to the point where they could lead a home Bible study now? So they would have to be involved with the life of the church the way that we expect members to. So like in the eight-week member course, right there we outline not just what we feel is a committed disciple of Christ, but specifically how we would like to see people living out their faith at our CLA just based on our unique vision and what we're trying to accomplish and what we feel God has called us to do there. And so if it's an individual that is regular church attendance, part of a small group, attends men's Bible study, women's Bible study, with regularity and we see them growing, you know, theologically, et cetera, et cetera. Then we approach them and we'll invite them into our, we have what's called a leadership pipeline and that's once a month and we kind of just train them on, you know, the basics of leadership. Not, I guess you could say Christian leadership in general, and just basics on how to lead a Bible study, how to disciple, how to teach people to share their faith, etc., like that. And from there, if we feel like they're a good candidate, we'll ask them if they can open up their home and see how it goes. Well, I'm getting the impression that you are very organized and have documents and criteria and all kinds of things sorted out. So that's wonderful. Not everybody has that going in. And it definitely makes it a little bit easier if you know kind of what your program overall is. Just a couple more questions for me, and then we'll open it up for anybody else who has follow-ups as well. But I did want to ask, how can Ebenezer Reformed Church pray for you guys? You could pray for our church plant in Wilmington. We're definitely trying to move toward a more regular Sunday service there. Right now we just meet during the week for a midweek Bible study. That city is just really hard to reach because it's very, very, very heavily Roman Catholic. and also you know there's generational gang affiliation where it's like you hit families that are like everybody from the great grandma to the girl in high school is gang affiliated you know and it's like you know they just they don't and there's so much of you know just the type of Christian churches that are there There's a lot of, you know, easy believism and stuff like that. So a lot of them, again, they're like, oh yeah, I walked down the aisle, you know, before I said the sinner's prayer or whatnot. And a lot of them think that they're born-again Christians, you know. And so it's kind of hard to convince them that you know, what true Satan faith looks like. And so there's just a lot of obstacles there. And so, you know, it's going to take a serious, you know, touch of God to reach that community, so. Absolutely. So, you know, assuming you're able to move forward with this soon, what would that look like for RCLA? Would Would one of you stay there and one of you is in Wilmington? We'd probably still switch off the pulpit. Okay, so kind of take turns, but you wouldn't be together on Sunday mornings anymore. Yeah, no. We're thinking of doing a Sunday evening service first. Yeah, to start that way and just kind of slowly move toward something else potentially. Okay. Alright, very good. Sounds wonderful. Let's do a hypothetical. Imagine you were in Shafter. What would your first step be to reach out into the community? The first thing, I would start asking questions. I'd have to get familiar with the town and see what the dynamic is. Because again, everywhere is different. The gospel is the same, but it's always... Because if you want to mobilize a church, it's so hard to... make sure that you're not burning people out, you know, because they've got, the congregation, they're not paid full time like we are, right? And so it's like, you know, for them to, you know, spend their time in a way that's unwise, you know, or that's just not the best use of their time is obviously not godly, right? And so I would want to make sure that whatever efforts are implemented, that they're, going to be the most effective, right? And so I think there's a lot of groundwork that needs to be done in the beginning. But for me, in Wilmington, I grew up there my whole life, so there wasn't a whole lot of need for that. But Linwood was different. When Rudy and I first showed up in Linwood, we just kind of started going and having lunch places. We were following people on social media, oh, this is the mayor, this is this person. And then eventually we just kind of started knocking on different doors and seeing where the Lord left. So I think that's the most important thing. rather than just following like a cookie cutter evangelism model is like really doing groundwork in the community and seeing like where would our time best be spent. Yeah. Very good. Now you're both bivocational, right? Yeah. So what do you do? So I work part-time at the docks as a longshoreman. Okay. Yeah, Port of LA. Yeah. And Rudy, he's a chaplain? He's a chaplain at a hospital. Okay. Yeah. All right. And obviously that helps with Yeah, it does. Surviving. It does, yeah. Okay, very good. Do you, you know, in terms of bivocational ministry, do you have anything you want to say about that? Its challenges, its rewards, why it's horrible, why it's good, whatever your take on it is? Well, you know, I mean, the hardest part is obviously that, you know, you do spread yourself thin because, you know, ministry has, there's always something to do. It's like a business, right, where it's like there's always something you can do. and so that would be the that would be the biggest con but the pros is that you stay connected with like everyday people and so it kind of like your mindset is you're thinking like the common man and so sometimes that helps with like sermon prep stuff like that sometimes I think just being away from all that, you kind of forget what it's like to just do normal life as an everyday person, right? So, I think that would probably be the, and then obviously the financial benefit, right? So, yeah. Okay. Well, thank you very much. I appreciate it. I'll stop grilling you, and we'll let everybody else jump in. Any follow-ups for Chris on anything? Greg? Yeah, so, I understand that, I think I heard that a large portion of your congregation is bilingual. Is that right? Yeah, yeah they would be, yeah. But your services are in English. Yeah. Do you have any Hispanic only Bible studies or ministries? No, so actually the Wilmington service that we're trying to start on Sunday nights, we want to do a bilingual service with that, yeah. Yeah, because Wilmington has, there's a much higher Spanish speaking population than in Linwood, even though both of them have primarily Hispanic as the demographic, yeah. Thank you. Anyone else? Surely I didn't cover all the questions. I kind of follow up on Greg's question, though. Lionel, when we were there, I think we sang a song in Spanish? Yeah. So you've got a diverse, in some cases, congregation there, right? Yeah, yeah. It was, I don't know how that started, but we did, at some point, we started doing one song in Spanish. And then the girl that is our worship director, she's Samoan. And so she thought, hey, could we do the doxology in whatever her language is? And then we did that. And then it kind of just took off where it was like every once in a while we'll do a random song. in a different language or the doxology in a different language, stuff like that, yeah. But it's usually just a song, yeah. Anyone else? Okay, either they're holding their questions for next week or I was more thorough than I anticipated. All right, well, yeah. So you're using a Lutheran church building. Yeah. So you're assuring they still have their services there, and you guys have a different time? What are the times that you worship? Yeah, so our worship starts late. We start at 12 noon. Yeah. And the Lutheran church, they meet from 10 to 11. Yeah. Yeah, and then we start. So it's a very small congregation? Yeah, very small. Like, there's like five people there right now. Yeah, it's very small. Yeah. So they're in and out quick. How many people are in your congregation? Members, we have like 80, but on a Sunday we have like 120. I think I saw a couple hands go up here. Yeah, I mean nothing specific in terms of like gang intervention or anything like that but I mean I think our whole you know system revolves around reaching like that type of demographic, everything from the way we preach to the way we outreach on social media, it's definitely geared toward an individual that comes from that background and has no clue about Reformed theology. Because most of the people that go to our church were not Reformed prior to coming there. They might have heard John MacArthur or John Piper or something like that, so they're like, kind of familiar with like Calvinism and like, you know, expository Bible teaching. And so, but, yeah, we definitely gear everything toward that demographic. Yeah. Okay. Pastor Greg, I think you had a question. Are you guys going to, is your intention to acquire the project? Yeah, but they, so they told us they're not going to sell it. Yeah. Yeah. They just don't seem very kingdom minded in my opinion. I think they said something like even if they like died that they would give the building back to their denomination. Yeah, so I don't know. Who knows? But we would like to buy it. But the denomination is not going to use it. Probably not. Will they let you continue to be Pharaoh? Maybe. Because they have no, the denomination they're a part of, it's not even like a real denomination. They came out of like the, one of those liberal ones, one of those liberal Lutheran ones, they're conservative, but they didn't join like the Missouri Senate or whatever, like one of those major ones. They formed their own little denomination with like five churches, but they have like no connection with one another. So I don't even think they have any kind of communication with headquarters or whatever. I don't even know if there's even such a thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They don't have a pastor. The pastor's a retired Lutheran pastor and he's just there for pulpit supply. And then the guy that plays the piano, I don't even know if he's even a Christian. He's just there to play the piano. And then the other three are like, everybody that's in the pews is doing the service. It's like one person gets up, does this, it's like all within them. We've done some services for them, but then when they found that retired Lutheran pastor, they stopped asking us for a pulpit supply. But yeah, they're just very stubborn and stuck in their ways. Do you guys have to set up a whole system every Sunday? Every Sunday, yeah. Do you want to tear it down? Tear it down, set it up, yeah. Yeah, they won't even let, yeah. Well, it's kind of encouraging in one way to find out that there are non-reformed people who are every bit as stubborn as we are. Maybe even more so. Yes, sir? Do you have to change the way you preach today? No, it was the same. I probably just left out some like inappropriate jokes and stuff like that, but I don't know. But no, for the most part, the same. I think just like the illustrations change, you know? Yeah. All right, anyone else? Luke? What's kind of the age breakup of your membership? There's a lot of young families with kids or singles or older? Yeah, I would say 25 to 35 would probably be the largest demographic, yeah. But we have everything, there's young, old, it's pretty multicultural as well. Yeah, it's a pretty good mix. Alright, that's not an alarm, that's just Heidi sending me messages if anybody was hearing. Moises? Sometimes, yeah. There are some times where we've tried Long Beach as a place to evangelize and that city has the second highest LGBTQ population there after San Francisco. And so, yeah, you get a lot of hostility right there.