Mike wrote:Don't know about you, John, but to me these are powerful verses that also point out that salvation cannot be lost. After all, if no man can pluck the saved out of God's hand, neither can the self, who is also a man, pluck himself out. "No man" includes the self.
Alas I gotta go, Nod beckons.
John UK wrote:My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John 10:27-29 KJV---
Given to Christ by the Father!! What an immense privilege, and such joy to know that we are secure in the hand of Father God.
Amazing grace! how sweet the sound,That saved a wretch like me!I once was lost, but now am found;Was blind, but now I see.
'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,And grace my fears relieved;How precious did that grace appearThe hour I first believed!
Love then as defined here by the Lord is, that God loved us and sent HIS SON to be the propitiation for our sins.
For whom did Christ die? For HIS OWN, HIS sheep, the elect.
Thus GOD does not love the rest.
John 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth HIS OWN sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4. And when he putteth forth HIS OWN sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are NOT of MY SHEEP, as I said unto you. 27 MY SHEEP hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
The answer to the survey question is, no!
DJC49 wrote:Guilt by association, John UK.Puritans compelling church attendance = bad. Likewise, God compelling our love towards Him because He first loved us = bad. (?)I posit to you that it greatly depends upon who is doing the compelling -- and for what reason!
For example: Do you know of any fellow believer who did not come to Christ willingly and essentially? I mean in real terms, in real life.
When they heard the call to 'flee from the wrath to come', did they have to be dragged (forced) to obey?
When they heard of the loveliness and kindliness of the Saviour, and understood it, did they feel under a compulsion to come to him for life and forgiveness?
When, like a blind beggar being offered food and shelter, they had to be coerced into asking him for pardon and peace?
Surely, if a man has his eyes opened to his just deserts as a sinner, will he not RUN to Christ, voluntarily and cheerfully, hoping that Christ will receive him?
As I see it, bro, God does no violence to our will, none at all.
DJC49 wrote:Dear *Love* --Please kindly notice that in my post of [URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/survey_details.asp?currPage=2&VoteID=ww42303173933&sortby=newfirst#comments]]]12/15/08 2:05 PM[/URL] (to which you have responded here), that I use the word "forces" as a verb and NOT as a noun as in: "The force be with you!" [*John UK* attempted to associate that Star Wars verbiage with my post. I assume he did so in jest.]So ...... Kindly reread my post for clarification and perhaps for your edification.
I stand corrected!
Your posts are quite edifying.
John UK wrote:Did you know the Puritans, when in power in England, compelled and forced people into church attendance by law? This is one reason why I don't like to think of our gracious God 'forcing' issues upon us.
Puritans compelling church attendance = bad. Likewise, God compelling our love towards Him because He first loved us = bad. (?)I posit to you that it greatly depends upon who is doing the compelling -- and for what reason!
Now, although there's something in us which is naturally and invariably repulsed by the mere thought of being compelled or forced into doing just about anything (or reacting in a certain way), you must remember that it is GOD we're talking about in this case. He is the one doing the compelling or "forcing". Come to think of it, are any of His motives ever anything but righteous and good? And everytime I hear or read someone balking at the notion that God would ever COMPEL us to do anything -- somehow violating our freewill -- my mind ALWAYS turns to thoughts of Saul on the road to Damascus ... an extremely compelling story!
DJC49 wrote:A) So ...... Kindly reread my post for clarification and perhaps for your edification.B) "The hardness of God is softer than the kindness of men, and His compulsion is our liberation."
B) "The hardness of God is softer than the kindness of men, and His compulsion is our liberation."
A) I will re-read your post - later.
B) Hadn't heard that C.S. Lewis quote, but it is sooooooooo true. Love it.
P.S. Gender will not be discussed on these boards per new ruling by the post-masters. Only thoughts are generated here.
Yes I was jesting - I'm always at it.
Did you know the Puritans, when in power in England, compelled and forced people into church attendance by law? This is one reason why I don't like to think of our gracious God 'forcing' issues upon us.
I'm sure we believe the same, just use different words of expression.
*Love* (among other pseudonyms she uses) wrote:No, DJ, not a *force*.
[*John UK* attempted to associate that Star Wars verbiage with my post. I assume he did so in jest.]
So ...... Kindly reread my post for clarification and perhaps for your edification._
True enough that it's difficult to go talking about God "forcing" unregenerate sinners to do anything, however, we DO have such verses in Scripture which point to the fact that God using "force" is not beyond His purposes.
Example:"And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and COMPEL [them] to come in, that my house may be filled." [Luke 14:23]_
And I like this quote from C.S. Lewis which reads:"The hardness of God is softer than the kindness of men, and His compulsion is our liberation."
"The Jews vainly conceited that the Messiah should be sent only in love to their nation, and to advance them upon the ruins of their neighbours; but Christ tells them that he came in love to the whole world, Gentiles as well as Jews, 1 John 2:2. Though many of the world of mankind perish, yet God's giving his only-begotten Son was an instance of his love to the whole world, because through him there is a general offer of life and salvation made to all. It is love to the revolted rebellious province to issue out a proclamation of pardon and indemnity to all that will come in, plead it upon their knees, and return to their allegiance. So far God loved the apostate lapsed world that he sent his Son with this fair proposal, that whosoever believes in him, one or other, shall not perish. Salvation has been of the Jews, but now Christ is known as salvation to the ends of the earth, a common salvation."
Wonderful stuff! A gospel of good news to the whole world, if only they will receive it and be reconciled to their affronted Maker.
And, anyone who knows this LOVE will never boast in having been chosen, but will speak of it reverentially, with great humility, that such a sinner could know such GRACE and MERCY and have been chosen for REDEMPTION - ALL for the GLORY OF GOD.
Nothing to boast in - only ONE Who is WORTHY of PRAISE.
Worthy is the Lamb that was Slain from the foundation of the world.
Good post, bro.Good sermon, bro.It's amazing what you find in a good sermon:"And even when they are hearing the gospel, the fact is God works in one heart when he does not in another. Though, I believe to a degree, the Spirit works in the hearts of ALL who hear the Word, so that they are ALL without excuse, yet I am sure he works in SOME so powerfully, that they can no longer resist him, but are constrained by his grace to cast themselves at his feet, and confess him Lord of all; while others RESIST the GRACE that comes into their hearts; and it does not act with the same irresistible force that it does in the other case, and they perish in their sins, deservedly and justly condemned. Are not these things facts? Does any man deny them? can any man deny them? What is the use of kicking against facts?"CHS
Amen and amen!
Saint said: "It seems by reading the posts that some find it easier to love the world than love all the saints."
It depends on how you define 'world'.If 'whole world', that includes the saints. If the 'world of the elect', then they are the saints.
Ok, bye bye, and may the triune God bless you richly as you search his precious word.
John UK wrote:Are you a member of this cult?
Finally, You have stated in your post below that God does not hate Esau.
Romans 9:13 states quote"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." TAKEN FROMMal 1:1 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. 2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, 3 **AND I HATED ESAU,** and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
This suggests that you will not receive the simple truth as recorded in Scripture. Therefore you seek to mollify God into a human idol, presumably trying to assuage human emotions.
May God bring you into the whole counsel of God.
Can you put my mind at ease please? I looked up the link you posted to 'livingtheword.org' and it would seem to be the website of an independent heretical sect living in California - not a church but a Bible study group. Yet there are references to The Worldwide Church of God.
I discovered on site this amazing statement:
"The Holy Spirit is the Divine Nature of God; not a third person."
Are you a member of this cult? If not, why on earth did you refer me to it for clarification on an important issue.
Of all the verses listed, all but one was from the Old Testament, and the NT verse was taken out of context, as I explained already.
Please continue to dialogue if you wish, but at least let me know what you believe and what church affiliation you accept as representational.
As for me, I've been called Spurgeonic.
yea rather wrote:a] Adam disobeyed to "engage" with sin - But the tree had obviously been planted by God for an end purpose in mind. Two ways = ultimately either salvation or damnation!b] Double standard. = The command to honor - I see as a different debate to Jesus injunction to "hate" compared with "loving" Jesus Himself. Surely HE refers here to depth of commitment.c] wrath = Your quote "unbelief" eoq. Yes! BUT does God love children of wrath. Is this the "same" love the believers share? Again I reiterate what makes the difference to God?d] Christ paid for the sins of the elect only. God does not charge twice for the same crimes.The unsaved pay for their own ticket to hell._____________John UK. I feel your missing the point John. Don't really know where you're coming from in that post (7:14PM). Sorry.
b. The different debate? Hating your father and mother to be a disciple, means to love them less than loving Christ. Likewise Esau was loved less than Jacob.
c. He loved them enough to grant them the liberty to hate Him.
d. Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world. The unsaved pay for their ticket to hell through unbelief.
To love our enemies and our neighbour as ourselves-is such because we do not know who are God's elect. Our neighbour might give the appearance of being our enemy and an enemy of Christ but may turn out to be the Saul who became the Apostle Paul or the sinner who becomes a saint on his death bed.
As Saints to love our enemies is to have a glimpse of the unfathomable **impossible to measure** love Christ has for His justified ones. Romans 5:8-10 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
What did Spurgeon say about Jacob and Esau in the context of the whole of Romans 9http://www.apibs.org/chs/0239.htm
In response to your first part, I would say this:
GOD = SPIRIT
The 'fruit' of the Spirit reveals the character of God. Hatred = Flesh, and Love = Spirit.
When a man is filled with the Spirit, he loves all men. When he quenches or grieves the Spirit, he plays the hypocrite (like Peter) and does not love all men.
Calvinistic 'proof text' taken out of context.
Taken IN context, the verse refers to God's choosing of the younger to be over the elder, even though only seconds or minutes were between them. God did not 'hate' Esau. God can appoint an Obama as president, and an older man as vice-president, but that does not mean he hated the latter. For more examples, see Mike's post earlier about how, if we wish to be Christ's disciples, we must 'hate' (understand it) all others, including our nearest and dearest, and our own selves too.
I hope this irons out everything to your satisfaction.
As Wesley wrote: (in the character of the Spirit)
Oh that the world might taste and seeThe riches of his gracePreach him to all and cry in deathBehold, behold, the LambBehold, behold the Lamb
p.s. I appreciate your postings.