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BIBLE, SOCIETY, TECH, PERSONAL SURVEYS | FAVORITES CREATE NEW

All Categories |  Bible & Theology Issues
1,542 total votes have been cast on this survey | 1,209 user comments  ( edit survey )

Is the Church and Israel one body or separate bodies?
Created: 1/14/2006 | Last Vote: 4 years ago | Comment: 9 years ago
Disclaimer: These surveys are created by PLUS or FULL Members of the site and, unless specified, are not created by the SermonAudio staff nor do they necessarily reflect the site's position on any topic.

 •   One body.
  35% | 541 votes

 •   Separate bodies.
  35% | 541 votes

 •   One, but distinct from one another.
  12% | 178 votes

 •   Separate, but drawn together at the Lord's second coming.
  14% | 216 votes

 •   No answer. Skip this survey, I do not care to vote on this topic.
  4% | 66 votes

   

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Survey3/12/10 2:33 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
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Some way or another I think I missed this survey, but it looks like those who know about [URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=5504173329]]]Dispensations[/URL] are fairly well represented in the voting. [URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=625031196]]]Israel & the Church are Different People[/URL].

Survey4/22/09 2:45 PM
Brother M. | Louisiana  Find all comments by Brother M.
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Dispensationalism is based upon C.I.Scofield`s Theology.

C.I.Scofield applied DR DD to himself he sure did not earn it in a Seminary.C.I.Scofield was not qualified to be a pastor according to God`s book the Bible.

Read the incredible scofield and his book by Joseph Canfield and read Swarms of locust`s The Jesuit attack on the Faith by Michael Bunker.

Dispensationalism is nothing but Roman Catholic Jesuit Futurism that has deceived Christianity.

C.I.Scofield`s Bible was financed by the Jesuit order.Christians are supporting so-called Jews who are not biblical Jews but Khazars.Read Henry Fords the International Jew and how they are controlling Christians and America through un-biblical Satanic Talmud Zionism.

The Jesuit order has created the curse word Anti-Semitism to keep Christians in bondage.If anyone was Anti-Semite it was John the Baptist-Jesus and Paul.

True Anti-Seminism is rejecting and mocking Christ.{Gal 3:1}not seeds of many.{Romans 9:8}Israel according to the flesh are not the Children of God.{Ethnic Jews does not automatic qualify one to be of Israel-Rom 9:6}

Read Hebrews chapter 11 Abraham was looking for a new heaven and earth not an earthly one as Satanic Talmudic Zionism teaches.Hebrews 11:10,16.

Scofield was a Jesuit Gun.

God bless.


Survey4/21/09 2:25 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
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Hmmm, I don't know if I ever commented on his one or not, but I should! [URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=11306125524]]]Distinctives of Israel & the Church[/URL]

Survey11/11/08 1:29 PM
St Jeremiah | Salt Lake City, UT  Contact via emailGo to homepageFind all comments by St Jeremiah
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Israel is prophecy

Church is mystery (seven were revealed to Paul)

Israel is Davidic kingdom...or kingdom of heaven.

Church is the kingdom of God over all the earth.

Israel is under wrath.

Church is not appointed to wrath.

Israel is under law given to them by Moses.

Church is under grace and truth in Christ Jesus.

Israel is the Father's bride. Hosea 2:14-23

Church is the bride of Christ; Eph. 5:21-33

Israel is promised land, kingdom and priesthood. Ezekiel 40-48

Church is seated in heaven with Christ. Ephesians 2:6 & Heb. 12:22-23

Israel is under an obsolete covenant that is fading away and will be replaced with a New Covenant for "the house of Israel and of Judah." Hebrews 8:7-13

Church is under an everlasting New Covenant in Jesus' blood that is a better New Covenant founded on better promises. Heb. 8:6; 9:15-17 & 12:24


Survey5/13/08 5:55 AM
HM | AFRICA  Find all comments by HM
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It is quite surprising to note that whilst others are particularly concerned about rightly dividing the scriptures knowing others are observing, others are deliberately frustrating this. Hear stands my conclusion: Whilst it is good to debate issues, we must be aware of the devils deliberate schemes. See the theme of the 2nd John and the warnings therein.

Survey5/5/08 7:53 PM
Preacher  Find all comments by Preacher
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But Peter was talking to Jews wasn't he? That doesn't have anything to do with us.

Survey5/5/08 10:40 AM
rogerant | Saskatoon Canada  Contact via emailFind all comments by rogerant
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Dispensationalism teaches that the church age was completely unforseen in the O.T. and that it was not revealed until Jesus came, but it is contradicted by Scripture. In Acts 3:24, the Aposle Peter declares, "Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Survey5/5/08 9:09 AM
Minnow  Find all comments by Minnow
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"Dispensationalism is basically the method of interpreting the scriptures that sees two distinct peoples of God, with two distinct destinies ‚Äď Israel and the Church.
EG
# The Church is not the continuation of God's Old Testament people,
# The Church is never equated with Israel in the New Testament, and Christians are not Jews, true Israel, etc.

But

From the beginning, God selected one people alone, from all the earth.

Deu 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Deu 10:15 Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.

1Ki 6:13 And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel.

[URL=http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/dispensationalism.html]]]The NT Church IS the continuation of this people[/URL]

by Nathan Pitchford.


Survey5/5/08 12:13 AM
Preacher  Find all comments by Preacher
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It is hardly off topic, as it all pertains to your eschatological viewpoint.

I will go on record as saying that Israel and the Church are two bodies.

In the same way that USA and the church are two bodies; Australia and the church are two bodies; Australia and USA are two bodies etc.

But Israel as a spiritual body, as God's covenant people, no longer exist. The State of Israel is no more the people of God than the State of South Africa. Although South Africa has abolished apartheid, but Israel still enthusiastically practises it.


Survey5/3/08 9:01 AM
Casob  Find all comments by Casob
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You men are off topic. The subject of this survey is

Is the Church and Israel one body or separate bodies?

The following might be a better place for your discussion.

What is your theological system?

You might as well leave your bibles. It seems from the last few comments that you wont need them.


Survey5/3/08 2:37 AM
MurrayA | Australia  Find all comments by MurrayA
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rogerant wrote:
I would recommend that you read David Chilton's The Great Tribulation, William E. Cox: Amillennialism Today, Postmillennisalism, an Eschatology of Hope by Keith A. Mathison, and The Basis of Premillennial Faith by Charles Ryrie for a comparison. One must study all positions.
rogerant,
I am familiar with most of these, and other works (save for Mathison), and I am more than comfortable with a standard a-millennial view, and a broadly historicist view of prophecy.
Chilton depends (at least partly) on an early date for Revelation, and his argument gets horribly circular for that reason. If the traditional date of c. A.D. 95 is established his edifice collapses. His exegesis is warped and far-fetched, as I said earlier.
Cox is altogether too negative: demolishing the Dispies (fair enough), and a few other positions into the bargain.
Ryrie is standard Dispensationalism, fraught with all the false hermenuetical assumptions which that position entails.

The book I have found much to my satisfaction in recent years is:
Kim Riddelbarger, "A Case for Amillennialism". I don't agree with all of his views, but where I disagree is more around the edges than anything of great substance.


Survey5/3/08 2:23 AM
rogerant | Saskatoon Canada  Contact via emailFind all comments by rogerant
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MurrayA wrote:
I have read and considered the preterist view, and I find it far-fetched and entirely unconvincing.
I would recommend that you read David Chilton's The Great Tribulation, William E. Cox: Amillennialism Today, Postmillennisalism, an Eschatology of Hope by Keith A. Mathison, and The Basis of Premillennial Faith by Charles Ryrie for a comparison. One must study all positions. I am preterist myself after a balanced study of all these doctrines of future events. But, make certain, there is a difference between being a preterist and being a full preterist. As much of a difference as being a Calvinist, and a hypercalvinist.

Survey5/2/08 11:26 PM
MurrayA | Australia  Find all comments by MurrayA
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Preacher,
From your comments on Matt.24 and Revelation it is clear that you advocate a type of preterism, which I do not follow. In fact, in some respects I find it just as objectionable as Dispensationalism.

I firmly believe that what purports to be about the future IS about the future; that when the disciples asked about the end of the world (sunteleias tou aioonos) they intended the end of this present age, as Jesus had often spoken before, and which He did again in Matt.28:20. When He speaks of His 'parousia' (Matt.24:3) He refers to His triumphant return in glory, as everywhere in the NT.

It is far-fetched to make so much refer to the destruction of Jerusalem, and the view that would refer the whole book of revelation to this one event is indeed far-fetched. Revelation is a book designed to encourage and prepare God's people to face the future, a long era of persecution not from Jews, but from Gentile powers, in the immediate circumstance imperial Rome, but beyond that various Gentile powers, even including a corrupt church (the harlot woman of ch.17), until His return, as depicted symbolically in ch.19.

I have read and considered the preterist view, and I find it far-fetched and entirely unconvincing.


Survey5/2/08 11:21 PM
rogerant | Saskatoon Canada  Contact via emailFind all comments by rogerant
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Preacher wrote:
He has just finished telling them how they could see the signs pertaining to the end of Jerusalem, so why would He tell them that no one can tell when that would happen?
Likewise, when you read Revelation, don't read it as pertaining to still future. John wrote to comfort the church then. What comfort would events 2000 years later have given them in their current situation? John was talking about AD 70, not about 2020. It was a document of God's covenantal judgement on Israel, not futuristic mystery.
Now were talking. Finally a discussion with reasonably minds searching truth! Have any of you read David Chilton's The Great Tribulation? Answers a lot of these questions. Roger

Survey5/2/08 10:43 PM
Preacher  Find all comments by Preacher
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MurrayA, when God said to our Lord, "Sit at My right hand till I make Your enemies Your footstool", what does that tell you about Christ's return?

The "signs of the times" phrase comes from the Olivet discourse. People forget that Christ was talking about the destruction of Jerusalem and the end of the Jewish age. The disciples thought this would be the end of all time, which is why they phrased their question as they did. But when Jesus said to them in Mat 24:33, "When you see all these things, know that it is near", He was not referring to the end of time, for He immediately said, "This generation will by no means pass away till all these things are fulfilled."

THEN He answers the question about the end of all time in vs 36, "But of THAT day and hour no one knows."

He has just finished telling them how they could see the signs pertaining to the end of Jerusalem, so why would He tell them that no one can tell when that would happen?

Likewise, when you read Revelation, don't read it as pertaining to still future. John wrote to comfort the church then. What comfort would events 2000 years later have given them in their current situation? John was talking about AD 70, not about 2020. It was a document of God's covenantal judgement on Israel, not futuristic mystery.


Survey5/2/08 10:22 PM
MurrayA | Australia  Find all comments by MurrayA
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Preacher,
Thank you for your response. Yes, the Dispies do seem to derive their system from a preconceived eschatological position, which they then make an article of faith. I know of many fundie churches which have the pre-trib, pre-mill scheme as a condition of membership.

As to signs of the times, I have some views, but when I share them I always preface them with the proviso that I could well be wrong, but I do believe that the signs are given in such a way that one may reasonably expect the Lord's return in his own lifetime. The fact that all such speculations (and there have been many) have so far been wrong does not on one hand invalidate such enterprise, since we need to be ever watchful, but it does caution us all against any dogmatism. For example, during the Napoleonic era 200 years ago many Christians firmly believed that Napoleon was the Antichrist, the little horn of Dan.7, and that Christ would come very shortly - within 20 years. But it was not Christ's coming which overthrew him, but the Duke of Wellington!

I agree entirely that 1948 and the modern state of Israel has little or nothing to do with either the prophetic restoration of Israel, or with end times prophecy. The Israel-watching fad, which so excites the Dispies, is a rabbit trail.


Survey5/2/08 9:57 PM
Preacher  Find all comments by Preacher
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MurrayA, you are now moving into the shadowy arena of eschatology; end times, tribulations, signs of the times etc. Doesn't it seem strange to you that people are very quick to say that your millenial views are not fundamental to the gospel, but their entire theology seems to be derived from their eschatological views?

Every generation thinks theirs is the ultimate age, that it could all end any day. This is not a bad thing, for it keeps us all on our toes. But there is only one certainty - No one knows that day or that hour.

As to Israel's future conversion, that has always been a conundrum. Romans 11 indicates that hardening in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. This suggests that ethnic Jews will continue to be converted.

But I do not see 1948 and national Israel as being part of prophetic fulfillment. These prophecies found in the Old Testament have been fulfilled in the return from the captivity.

National Israel was the caterpillar from which the butterfly of the church came. There is no relationship with God possible outside of Christ. And in Christ there is no nationality, for we are all citizens of that heavenly Jerusalem which the patriarchs already looked forward to.

Hope my response has been helpful to you.


Survey5/2/08 9:08 PM
MurrayA | Australia  Find all comments by MurrayA
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Preacher wrote:
...he cannot see and will not see that God has one people, one church, one plan of redemption which was first delivered to Israel and then to the whole world. That it would go beyond ethnic Israel into all nations was already foreseen and foretold in the Old Testament.
Well and concisely put, Preacher. The mind boggles as to the way Dispies pervert - and invert! - the plain statements of Scripture in the interests of their preconceived scheme. And then the incoherent ramblings, and the use of the same Scriptures as you yourself cite to shore up their own scheme, all make for a strange and alien structure which neither we nor our fathers have known.

Preacher, how do you understand Rom.11:25-6? Do you see there a regrafting of the Jewish branches in a mass-conversion to Christ as the Gospel age closes? I have believed for a long time that such is the case: and the movements in God's plan may well be opening up that scenario as I write.

God has withdrawn His grace from the formerly 'Christian nations' (speaking very broadly) of the West: there is no question about that. Africa and the Far East are now the arenas of His grace. And then? I believe that we may witness a mass-movement of Jewish people into the Kingdom before the en


Survey5/2/08 8:39 PM
Preacher  Find all comments by Preacher
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It seems there are two kinds of people on this discussion - those who see the Bible as the Word of God to all His people in all ages, and those who see the Bible as the Word of God but sometimes He is speaking to Jews and sometimes He is speaking to us.

As I have said before, your view of the whole of Scripture determines your view of the parts. I finally realised that this discussion is going nowhere when Casob started quoting the same passages I had been quoting to him.

That is why he cannot answer my questions, because he cannot see and will not see that God has one people, one church, one plan of redemption which was first delivered to Israel and then to the whole world. That it would go beyond ethnic Israel into all nations was already foreseen and foretold in the Old Testament. But because some can't get past their view that ethnic Israel is still the people of God they are blind to this truth.

So I will ask one more question of Casob. You refer constantly to Romans 11. If I, as a non-Jew, am grafted into the olive tree, am I now not a Jew? I partake of the same root and richness. I am ingrafted into Israel.

One is either in the tree, whether natural or not, or out of the tree. Or is there more than one tree?


Survey5/2/08 8:08 PM
Casob  Find all comments by Casob
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I want you men to know that I fully understand your ignoring me. Ignoring is something you do well. I sympathize with you and I know how frustrating it must be for you when you are called upon to defend things you have always taken for granted as being true but when you have to dig into context find they are indefensible.

It is just a good thing you did this before we delved into Roman 11 because that would have been awful for you. However, it is a very good place to show the difference between Israel and the church.

I know DJC49 cannot ignore me for long but I might take a few days away so you all can lick your wounds and heal and get your confidence back.

Yes, I might just do that!

MurrayA,

Sorry, but there are still genttiles and Jew apart from the church. You failed to read the preceding verse as your custom is.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself

of twain

one new man, [so] making peace;

I am surprised that you missed that!

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