We have all become conditioned as seeing sin in the light of relativity. But God sees only two responses to His Authority; submission or rebellion. There is no grey area here. We have become experts at seeing shades of grey, of seeing sins as evil, very bad, bad, quite bad, not so bad and almost excusable.
The Bible is very clear on several issues, and one of them is God's attitude towards sin. He takes it personally because it is a direct act of mutiny on His Lordship.
The Bible is also very clear on God's wrath and that He will demonstrate that wrath to the ungodly.
The question is, who are the ungodly? Are they made ungodly? Jesus told Nicodemus He had not come to condemn the world. It was not necessary, for the whole world was already condemned. The whole world was hell-bound.
From out of that hell-bound mass of humanity, Jesus redeemed His people. those whom the Father had given Him.
Are the rest deliberatly chosen for hell? Are they reprobate from the foundation of the world? There are indicators in the Word that this is the case. But the Word wants us to focus on the Gospel of grace and the redemption wrought by Christ. The Good News should be our focus.
Please note, it does not say fit to destruction, but FITTED. A.W. Pink has covered this subject extensivley and is available on the net at:
The 1st and 4th answers sound the most Biblically correct.
I tend to favor the 4th answer over the 1st since God exertssaving work on those who are predestined, but performs NOsaving work on the rest. These latter perish in their OWNsins while those predestined are saved by CHRIST'S righteousness.
Those being saved experience Gods action while the rest, God'sin-action regarding salvation.
At least that's how I've always understood this issue.
Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but FEW CHOSEN
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but FEW are CHOSEN.
Mk 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the ELECT'S sake, whom he hath CHOSEN, he hath shortened the days.
Jo 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I CHOSEN you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Jo 15:16 Ye have NOT CHOSEN ME, but I have CHOSEN you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit,
Jo 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have CHOSEN YOU OUT OF the world, therefore the world hateth you.
2Thes 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because GOD HATH from the beginning CHOSEN YOU to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
"Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
This is the lake of fire judgement - the second death. Revelations 20 indicates the judgement takes place on earth in the millenial kingdom in the presence of the lamb and the saints who are not hurt by it for they have overcome the world. The key word in many of these scriptures you will be influenced by is Forever and ever, eternal and everlasting. These words all come from the greek aion which can also be translated as age, world or never. Key is the word does not necessarily imply everlasting without end - it can have a begining ie before the world - aion began or it can have an end at the end of the age - aion.
From the greek then we see the second death judgement fits in with the same age as the first resurrection. Now is the judgement of this world - these be the days of punent in fulfillment.
Jake, the free willers have no evidence for their doctrine of conditional election. That which Jd said regarding 2 Thes 2:13 is a clear inversion of the truth that is taught in that verse.
They cannot see scriptural evidence because they are blind.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Ha ha, says no such thing. 'Creation restored' - I don't think anyone here has a problem with new heavens and new earth. Give us some legitimate quotes from the Ante-Nicean fathers mister, or I will post them for you....
This will get tedious if you do not offer something more than baiting for a reaction - the floor is your prove that either clement or origen taught eternal punishment. I can keep quotintg adnausium because it is accepted scholarship that they were universalists. BTW the second quote was from Origens work in my prievious post do tell if you wasnt me to produce reems of proof he believed in universal reconciliation. I know its gotta hurt that these Fathers so close to apostolic times preached universalism but the facts are the facts - eternal punishment came from pagan influence and manichaen dualism of which augustine was a disciple.
‚ÄúFor all things are ordered both universally and in particular by the Lord of the universe, with a view to the salvation of the universe. But needful corrections, by the goodness of the great, overseeing judge, through the attendant angels, through various prior judgments, through the final judgment, compel even those who have become more callous to repent.‚ÄĚClement of Alexandria
I'm sorry, but your responses and comments consistently indicate you do not have a full understanding of the heart of the Doctrine of Election.
It has nothing to do with me or anyone else being 'special'. It is just the opposite. Being given a gift from the heart that has nothing do with any merit of your own is humbling. To think one is wise enough to 'accept Jesus as your saviour' as opposed to others who reject His offer of salvation is what can render one to consider oneself 'special'.
Your comments have a tone of defensiveness, so I suspect you take this doctrine as an insult to you in some way. If you are saved, then you are one of the Elect, whether you understand that or not. In that light ... if you make sarcastic remarks about me being 'special', you are addressing those remarks to yourself as well.
I bid you peace.
"1 John 2:2. 'And not only for our sins,'--that is for those of the faithful, - is the Lord the propitiator, does he say, ‚Äúbut also for the whole world.‚ÄĚ He, indeed, saves all; but some [He saves], converting them by punishments; others, however, who follow voluntarily [He saves] with dignity of honour; so ‚Äúthat every knee should bow to Him, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth;‚ÄĚ that is, angels, men, and souls that before His advent have departed from this temporal life. " --Clement of Alexandria, Commentary on 1 John 2.2, Fragments from the Latin Translation of Cassiodorus, ANF, Vol 2"
‚ÄėThe end of the world and the consummation will come when every soul shall be visited with the penalties due for its sins. This time, when everyone shall pay what he owes, is known to God alone. We believe, however, that the goodness of God through Christ will restore His entire creation to one end, even His enemies being conquered and subdued. For so says the holy scripture: ‚ÄėThe Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, until I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet.‚Äô P.Arch. I.6.1.
Typical for you, you did not offer any proof for your assertions.
I say there is no such doctrime in the Bible as 'effectual call'. It is a MANufactured doctrine like so many other of the tenents of Calvinism. There is just no place in the Bible to make a case for it.
I do not know how or when it was introduced into your system but I can see how it is neccesary to prop up a number of other of your non-biblical claims like, limited atonement and irressitable grace.
Maybe your guys from the 16th century were responsible for its invention and you think they are the last word on defining christianity.
The call of God is effectual when a poor lost pilgrim hears the wonderful news that God himself came to earth as a man to pay the penalty for his sins on the cross and rose again for his justification and he just simply believes that message in his heart. The effect is that he becomes a new creature in Christ Jesus at that moment.
There is no requirement that he be pre-selected by God but that he must believe what God says.
It is no more complicated than that.
For everone that useth milk is unskillful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil" (Heb.5:12-14).
"Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you...Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well-pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen." (Heb.13:17,21).
I think we can learn quite a bit from the likes of Clement, Origen, Polycarp etc.... all of whom believed in the eternal punishment of hell. I agree with you that both the Arminian and Calvinist positions are extremist calculations of human reasoning. Both notions are lost in the weeds of humanism - along with the universalists of course. All the same in many ways. Quite daft.
Your response and your commentary is the copout. The problem you independents have is that you are so full of worldly pride so that you look to yourself alone as your final authority on Scripture.
Your foolish historical testimony on the Scriptures is a very good example of why the Lord gave HIS Church ministers and elders to guide and protect HIS flock.
If it were not for HIS ministers and elders in HIS Church, we would all be running around in ignorance and foolish pride like you independents. Rather than look to those whom the Lord has given to guide and teach HIS Church and HIS people, you independents run around and hang all your doctrines on your own ignorance of the Scriptures.
There is no doubt that, historically and Scripturally speaking, you are fully qualified as a independent, fundamentalist, pre-mill, baptist, Arminianian who has been trained by Scofield and Wesley.
Again, you might not like the labels, but you really need to look at your presuppositions and compare them with "dead men" in History to know where YOU FIT IN SO NICELY.
Claiming you are 100% a "Bible Believing" fundamental Christian does not make the grade if you learn history.
as through adam death came to all men so through christ shall all men be made alive.
I would be interested in anyone proving that the wages of sin mean any more than death bearing in mind I am going to ask you to defend scriptures you will cite as proof texts from the Greek.
My feeling is that calvinists and arminians engage in semantics each claiming certain proof texts that support their own traditions and doctrines. My position is that the scriptures cannot be bent to either system without serious leaps of imaginative interpretation and defaming the character of God. Universalal reconciliation is in harmony with the scriptures and was the doctrine of the early christians who endured the Roman persecutions prior to the romanization of the faith. Men like Clement and Origen of Alexandria who were martyred for the faith long before Augustine and Pelagius emerged had it right.
You seem to not have any core beliefs and convictions of your own.
Those things you post from those dry dead men are assertions and cannot be proven and you haven't even tried.
It is a cop-out!