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BIBLE, SOCIETY, TECH, PERSONAL SURVEYS | FAVORITES CREATE NEW

All Categories |  Bible & Theology Issues
1,453 total votes have been cast on this survey | 427 user comments  ( edit survey )

How Were Old Testament Saints Saved?
Created: 3/11/2006 | Last Vote: 5 years ago | Comment: 9 years ago
Disclaimer: These surveys are created by PLUS or FULL Members of the site and, unless specified, are not created by the SermonAudio staff nor do they necessarily reflect the site's position on any topic.

 •   Faith Alone
  82% | 1,190 votes

 •   Faith + Ceremonial Law (Sacrifices)
  12% | 173 votes

 •   Ceremonial Law (Sacrifices)
  2% | 24 votes

 •   High Priest's Sacrifice
  0% | 5 votes

 •   All Jews in OT were saved they were 'God's Chosen People!'
  1% | 11 votes

 •   No answer. Skip this survey, I do not care to vote on this topic.
  3% | 50 votes

   

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Survey8/10/10 4:31 PM
Wehs  Find all comments by Wehs
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Election, By GOD!

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Survey11/8/08 5:34 PM
St Jeremiah | Salt Lake City, UT  Contact via emailGo to homepageFind all comments by St Jeremiah
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Romans 4 and Hebrews 11

Survey7/30/08 1:40 PM
Warren Peese  Find all comments by Warren Peese
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What's this voice of God?
Is it the same voice that
Todd Bentley hears telling
him to kick old ladies in
the face with his biker boot?

Survey7/30/08 12:07 PM
PILUT  Find all comments by PILUT
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The same as in the New Testament - Obedience to the voice of God...which can only be by faith.

In the NT - The Father said "This is by beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, hear him."

And Jesus said "Ye must be born again"

It's still obedience to the voice of God!!


Survey7/30/08 11:11 AM
JD | .  Go to homepageFind all comments by JD
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It is my view that OT saint were justified by God by believing what he said and they were redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. Their faith was imputed to them FOR righteousness.

Survey6/9/08 2:35 AM
Nathan | Australia  Find all comments by Nathan
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I believe it is made perfectly clear it is by faith alone as the Book of Hebrews makes it so terribly poignant you must be trying to add your own works to miss it.

To have faith one would have been obedient and sacrificed but the sacrifice was nothing without faith backing it up.

Besides the Lord says "I prefer obedience to sacrifice." Consider Abraham and Issac on the sacrificial altar. God wanted the obedience He did not want the sacrifice of Issac.
For the obedience was establishing a type, a prophetical example of what was to come with Christ.

It is the same today with the shed blood of Christ on the cross of calvary. The sacrifice is nothing to those WHO DO NOT BELIEVE! But to us who do believe it is the very power of God UNTO SALVATION.


Survey3/19/08 9:03 PM
Bernard | Jansen  Find all comments by Bernard
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DJC49 wrote:
I wonder what the following 2 verses of Scripture could mean?
(1Peter 1:10) "Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you:"
(1Peter 1:11) "Searching what, or what manner of time THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST WHICH WAS ***IN THEM*** did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."
Anyone care to give it a stab? JD?
A few more while we're at it:

John 8:56 "Abraham rejoiced to see my day"

1 Corinthians 10:4 "They drank from the supernatural rock which followed them, and the rock was Christ"

Galations 3:8 "...preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham"

Hebrews 11:16 "They desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one"


Survey3/19/08 8:54 PM
DJC49 | Florida  Contact via emailFind all comments by DJC49
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I wonder what the following 2 verses of Scripture could mean?

(1Peter 1:10) "Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you:"

(1Peter 1:11) "Searching what, or what manner of time THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST WHICH WAS ***IN THEM*** did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

Anyone care to give it a stab? JD?


Survey3/18/08 1:13 AM
MurrayA | Australia  Find all comments by MurrayA
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Mr. J,
"I think we have hundreds, if not thousands of years to go."
You know that, do you?

You also say, as a kind of allegation of demerit:
"We all think this generation is the last or close to it."
There's something bad about that, is there?
I don't believe that there is at all. The signs are given such that everyone in every age may legitimately hope for His coming in their lifetime.

What do you do with those texts which insist the nearness of His coming? Rom.13:11-12; James 5:8; 1 Peter 4:7; Rev.1:3.
With all the talk I hear from Reformed postmillennialists they seem to have a special interest in asserting the farness of the Lord's Coming, not its nearness. Doubtless you will explain that point away too, but let me put it this way;
The NT constantly insists that the Lord's coming is something we must be prepared for at all times; it insists on us being watchful lest the Day take us unawares, etc.
However, what I hear coming from you folks is this:
It most likely won't be for several thousand years yet, so for all practical purposes FORGET IT!!
That is as far from the NT emphasis as anything could be, and why post-mill'ism is sheer heresy, and I won't have anything to do with it.


Survey3/17/08 6:31 PM
Mr. J | Australia  Find all comments by Mr. J
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Both Pre and Amil see the world gradually getting worse. They always quote texts like "As it was in the days of Noah" and "Many will say to Me in that day" and "Will the Son of Man find faith in the earth" etc. This sounds pessimistic to me. Did not God say to the Son, "Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool"? He did not say, "Sit here till you have to go down and make them your footstool." All throughout the Psalms (which so few know these days because of those accursed choruses) you read of the global kingdom of God; all nations, all kings and princes, all the world etc. We all think this generation is the last or close to it. I think we have hundreds, if not thousands of years to go. I do not believe evil will be eradicated in this age. But I believe that the Spirit of God will bring in His elect in His time, and I believe strongly that there are many more elect than non elect. The Bible speaks of multitudes that cannot be numbered when speaking of the saints, but the others are thrown into a relatively small place - a pit or a lake. If things are slowly going to blazes, and the elect are perishinlgly few, then I am not surprised so many "calvinists" can't be bothered evangelising. what's the point if we are in a losing battle anyway?

Survey3/16/08 11:49 PM
MurrayA | Australia  Find all comments by MurrayA
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Mr. J,
On reflection I think I have read Chilton's book. A friend of mine loaned it to me some years ago, and I read it through, at least, as much as I could stand!
I have also read Boettner's book "The Millennium".
I can only conclude that the exegesis of both is way off the beam, even far-fetched at times. One is at times left wondering whether either of them believe in the Second Coming at all, of if they do, it is certainly not central to their scheme of things. One does not get the impression that for them the Second Coming is "the blessed Hope", because for them other hopes have intruded.

As for Amillennialism being "pessimistic", this is at best a theological argument, based more on speculation as to what our minds should expect God to accomplish this side of His Coming.
At worst, and I would say more realistically, it is nothing more than an appeal to emotion. The issue is what the NT teaches, and the NT gives no solid ground for expecting a transformed world, or a total triumph of the Gospel in this age. Good and evil co-exist, and develop, always in antagonism to each other, until He comes in glory.


Survey3/16/08 8:16 PM
Mr. J | Australia  Find all comments by Mr. J
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MurrayA wrote:
I haven't read the book, but I have read a review, and I have read others in a similar vein and I can only say I dissent most strongly. Any post-millennial approach suffers from the same sorts of fallacies as pre-millennial approaches, i.e. the failure to perceive the confusion of the two comings from the OT perspective (as in the familiar appeal to Isa.11:9), and the all-important distinction between the "now" and "not yet" from the standpoint of the NT.
Moreover, Chilton's book seems to be similar to others in the same vein by adopting a radical preterist view of prophecy, which to me is both plain wrong, and in some forms is sheer heresy.
I always saw myself as an optimistic Amil, till I realised there was no such thing. Amil is pessimistic! Chilton's book proved to me that we have the wrong idea when it comes to Biblical prophecy. We tend to see everything as future; the Olivet discourse, most of Revelation etc. Everyone thinks that their generation is the end one and that the Bible speaks to them today about their tomorrow. This is plainly wrong. I know the full preterist view is wrong, but then every system of theology has its areas of extremism. Have a read of some of these things, Boettner, Chilton, Gentry etc.

Survey3/15/08 5:15 PM
Minnow  Find all comments by Minnow
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JD wrote:
the points I have made have been largely ignored
JD cannot receive the Biblical precept of Total Depravity. Hence does he seek to establish the idea that OT saints overcame sin by themselves, to the exclusion of grace and the Holy Spirit.

Thus does he reject the Bible teaching that the Holy Spirit, alone, has always enabled the sinner to come to salvation.
JD comes from the old papist/arminian position that salvation begins with human effort, - thus salvation by works! (And then of course their is Dispensationalism)

The OT does not teach "indwelling" simply because the OT did not teach Trinity!
Only in retrospect can we see that.

This teaching emerges and belongs to the NT, whence God Incarnate came to finish the complete doctrine, and teach the Son's and the Spirit's work.

Thus do we perceive that the Bible is ONE COMPLETE revelation, OT plus NT combined!


Survey3/15/08 8:17 AM
Icon O'Clast | Oz  Find all comments by Icon O'Clast
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The Church is of Israel wrote:
Recall that (1) the Old Covenant was a covenant of marriage, (2) Israel was divided in twain, and (3) the Northern Kingdom was divorced; this is the origin of the "nations" or "gentiles" (from the Latin GENTILIS, which is the exact equivalent of the Greek ETHNOS). The Southern Kingdom remained in the marriage relationship; these are the "Jews".
The prophets foretold the reunion of the SK and the NK, with both being brought into the marriage relationship of the New Covenant. The restoration of Israel is fulfilled in the Church, which is composed exclusively of the literal, physical descendants of Israel.
But in the eyes of God, not all Israelites of the flesh are part of Israel; unbelievers are excluded. Accordingly, the Church is termed the "Israel of God".
Not a lot of that makes sense mate, and some of it sounds a bit curly. The church is made up exclusively of lieteral, physical descendants of Israel? In the eyes of God the only true Israel has only ever been those who were in Christ, the remnant of election in the OT and the Church in the NT. They form one body, which is the true Israel. ALL who are of faith, both OT and NT saints, are true descendants of Abraham and heirs according to the promise.

Survey3/15/08 1:26 AM
The Church is of Israel  Find all comments by The Church is of Israel
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Recall that (1) the Old Covenant was a covenant of marriage, (2) Israel was divided in twain, and (3) the Northern Kingdom was divorced; this is the origin of the "nations" or "gentiles" (from the Latin GENTILIS, which is the exact equivalent of the Greek ETHNOS). The Southern Kingdom remained in the marriage relationship; these are the "Jews".

The prophets foretold the reunion of the SK and the NK, with both being brought into the marriage relationship of the New Covenant. The restoration of Israel is fulfilled in the Church, which is composed exclusively of the literal, physical descendants of Israel.

But in the eyes of God, not all Israelites of the flesh are part of Israel; unbelievers are excluded. Accordingly, the Church is termed the "Israel of God".


Survey3/14/08 9:55 PM
MurrayA | Australia  Find all comments by MurrayA
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Mr. J,
Regarding David Chilton's book on Revelation:
I haven't read the book, but I have read a review, and I have read others in a similar vein and I can only say I dissent most strongly. Any post-millennial approach suffers from the same sorts of fallacies as pre-millennial approaches, i.e. the failure to perceive the confusion of the two comings from the OT perspective (as in the familiar appeal to Isa.11:9), and the all-important distinction between the "now" and "not yet" from the standpoint of the NT.

Moreover, Chilton's book seems to be similar to others in the same vein by adopting a radical preterist view of prophecy, which to me is both plain wrong, and in some forms is sheer heresy.

Also, there is still the problem of Christ's present reign: that despite an acknowledgement of that present reign the tacit assumption is that it fails until the golden age arrives. Thus post- and pre-millennialism concur in using the argument, "Christ can't be in real control. Look at all the evil in the world!"

I firmly believe that good and evil develop simultaneously, until evil is finally banished at His glorious return. This a-mill view alone is both Biblical, and the historic faith of the church.

However, this thread is not the place for discussion of this issue.


Survey3/14/08 5:51 PM
Mr. J | Australia  Find all comments by Mr. J
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Bernard wrote:
I'd support closing this one; it's been going nowhere for a while.
I agree - this issue is at the heart of dispensationalist theology and is as important to dispensationalists as immersion of adults is to believers. I guess we all need to remember that true fellowship is not based on agreement but on the completed work of Jesus Christ. I think all that could be said on this topic has been said. JD has been outnumbered but has not wavered and for that I commend him. I will graciously bow out of this discusssion.
I would, in closing, like to recommend to you all a commentary on Revelation called "The Days of Vengeance" by David Chilton. It is superb, highly readable, very informative and unbelievably challenging.

Survey3/13/08 10:27 PM
Bernard | Australia  Find all comments by Bernard
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Moderator Alpha wrote:
If the recent tenor of comments continues this survey will be closed. Both sides of the discussion need to take heed and clean up your comments.
Thank you.
I'd support closing this one; it's been going nowhere for a while.

Survey3/13/08 9:09 PM
Moderator Alpha  Protected NameFind all comments by Moderator Alpha
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If the recent tenor of comments continues this survey will be closed. Both sides of the discussion need to take heed and clean up your comments.

Thank you.


Survey3/13/08 8:31 PM
JD  Find all comments by JD
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They just CAN'T be the same! Oh no! .................. because some silly tenet of Dizzy-spin-sationalism won't allow artificial dispensational boundries/ages to be crossed for whatever "reason!" It's truly breathtaking how profoundly idiotic, irrational, and illogical your adopted theological system really is.
_________________________

Yes, DJC49, this tenet that you are calling silly is called the covenants that God made with Israel. There is no way even in your convoluted reasoning that the House (family) of Israel and the House (family) of Judah can be equated to the church. You have a spiritual Israel that equates to it in your theology that renders all these covenants pertaining to the land, the king, and the family null and void. If that is the way you like to interpret the wonderful words of God, then I say knock yourself out. You cannot be turned or halted and you might as well teach as many as you can convince to listen to you.
Db is listening and so is Jago, murray and minnow and a few others. They love what you are saying.
I have reasoned with you all and the points I have made have been largely ignored and worse, scoffed at, because they cannot be refuted without plain denials and I doubt even you would deliberately cross that line, though nothing surprises m

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