This is the Dividing Line. The Apostle Peter commanded all Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Your host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha and Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation. And now, with today's topic, here is James White. And good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Rich Pierce. I'm sitting in for Dr. White today, and we have some things to cover as I will be interviewing Dr. Rick Walston, who's on hold right now and listening in on our conversation, and a couple of things that I want to bring everybody up to speed on real quick before we bring Dr. Walston onto the line. and that is uh... first of all i want to talk a little bit about straight gate dot com and uh... i have been getting uh... good many emails as of late and is there really so uh... wanting to know what's going on with straight gate and how come all of our archives uh... that that uh... exist over a straight gate uh... aren't playing Well, the truth of the matter is, is that somewhere around the last week of April, I can't put my finger on the exact date, StraightGate, their host server that actually hosts the real audio files crashed. And Steven Luker, who is in charge of StraightGate, well, Steve, when he selects a host for the system, for the files to reside on, he has to shop around a good bit because when you're talking about upwards of 30GB of files that reside on his system, that's a tremendous amount of space to be renting from someone and gets very, very expensive. And so the provider there he selected was, shall we say, inexpensive for that kind of space. And the problem is that as we anticipated when the report was made that the server had crashed, we anticipated that it would be up in 24 hours. We anticipated that it would be up in 48 hours. we anticipated that it would be up uh... in a week uh... in two weeks uh... any day any moment at any time and that system is still down and uh... i'm sorry to say and um... so keep steven luker in your prayers i think a lot of folks don't realize how much steven puts into straight gate and making that uh... site available It is costly to do that and Stephen is in a situation I think at this point to where he's going to have to find another ISP, a provider, and that is a difficult circumstance given the amount of data that he has to go and number one, find the kind of space that he's going to need to get in order to host that site for him. So please understand that we're doing what we can to To get Straightgate back online, to get the real audio archive of the dividing line back online, we have a small archive or a small amount of space on the server that we use for this program. And we're providing some, at least, current history files over there for folks. and uh... that's right monogrammed this year this this year it uh... should be back this year uh... and anyway the uh... please pray that steve is able to get that back online soon and uh... and that it would be uh... uh... a uh... probably out an affordable uh... environment for us uh... that uh... that he could be able to to do that anyway uh... moving right along uh... I believe it was three weeks ago we covered the Gary Novak story. I did a program on there. I haven't been on the air in a while and so it was a little bit like trying to get my feet back underneath me again after not walking for some time. But I think I'm back in the action again here, and I've got my rhythm back. Not so many, you know, stuff like that. But on hold, and let's go ahead and bring him on the air now, is Dr. Rick Walston. Dr. Walston, are you there? Can you hear me? I am here. Thanks, Mitch. It's good to hear your voice, sir. Warren, if I can get a little bit more volume on my headset here from Dr. Walston, I'd like to be able to hear him just a little bit better. And, uh, how is, uh, how's the weather up there? You're in, you're in Washington state, right? What city are you in? Buckley. In Buckley. We're about 30 miles east of Tacoma. Uh-huh. And there's that sound again, Warren. Boy, I hate that. We rewired the board a couple of weeks ago, Dr. Walston, and thought we had all the kinks worked out of it. And maybe he needs to just back off my headphones a little bit. I'm not sure. But anyway, one of the things I really want to get into, and you heard my show when I covered the show on Gary Novak and his commentary regarding Dr. White's doctorate, the degrees that Dr. White has earned. And he did those through CES. And folks, for those who do not know Dr. Walston's affiliation, he is the president of Columbia Evangelical Seminary, and he has also written a book that we are now featuring at AOMN.org called, Walston's Guide to Christian Distance Learnings, Earning Degrees Non-Traditionally. And we're going to cover not only talking about Dr. Walston's point of view regarding Gary Novak's charges, we're also going to get into Dr. Walston's book, as well as talk about Columbia Evangelical Seminary. And what is going on there? What kind of students are signing up for Columbia? What kind of interest? What kind of things draw a student to Columbia? And one of the things I do know for a fact, and Dr. Walston, I'm not sure if you're aware, but on the dividing line, one of the things that we have is it's an interactive program. We have a chat room, and our chat room right now has about 23 people in there. Most of them are listening to the program as we speak. And so I actually can monitor the chat room, and as people make comments in the chat room, it's kind of their way of talking back with us. What's that? Yes, I can read what they're saying, but we don't like to feed into the hiding behind the computer screen kind of mentality. We like to encourage these folks to call in and get on the line. I want to do that right now and let these folks know that they can call and get on the line at 866-854-6763. And again, 866-854-6763. And there's one individual in particular that I know is a current student. at CES and he has given me a great deal of feedback regarding his experience at CES and I do want to encourage him quite strongly to give us a call and interact with Dr. Walston in being able to talk about his experience at CES. Now Dr. Walston, Focusing on Gary Novak's summation of all of what went back and forth between him and Dr. White and some of the points that he made, I'd like to get an idea of what you've read and what your thoughts are about his conclusions that he's drawn in that whole correspondence. Well, the first thing I'd like to state is that Mr. Novak's issues are not about Dr. White's degrees. The real issue for Mr. Novak is Dr. White's theology. What Mr. Novak has done is introduce a red herring into the discussion. In logic, a red herring is anything that draws attention away from the central issue. You see, for every minute that Mr. Novak can get Dr. White in a discussion in defense of his own degrees, that is one more minute that he puts Dr. White's energy and our eyes on something other than the central issue. And that's the more of an error. In fact, when this all began, which was a few years ago, my nephew who is only eighteen years old at the time his name is brandon he looked at what mister novak had to say he looked at the situation and he said if mister novak has a problem with doctor white theology then that's what he should address to talk about his degrees is simply irrelevant and that from an eighteen-year-old boy so i thought that was pretty bright on his part interesting now we also remember walter martin most of us and martin once said you can win a fight with the skunk but why would you want to One of my former pastors had said to me in discussion about, you know, the mudslinging that people do it from time to time, he said, have you ever noticed that if you actually get real mud on your clothes and you try to wipe it off, you just smear it in. But if you let that mud set dry and cake, it's rather easy to brush off after a while. So in my ministry and in my life, I've attempted to make it my personal rule to stay in line with those concepts. Don't fight skunks and don't wipe mud. But sometimes we have to. defend situations that are there, even though it's just mudslinging. And so this is one of those times, I think, that we really have to deal with it. Interesting excellent now specifically. I think that there are some things in his conclusions that we need to to deal with and Again remind our listeners. I put a web page together that kind of links all this together and after our Discussion is over with today. I'll add the two programs to that web page it is al min org forward slash Novak that's in lowercase letters dot html and uh... and folks can go and and basically go through the history of uh... all the different uh... exchanges that took place but ultimately what uh... in in in mister novak's last commentary which was titled of james white and the salt river or doctor white leads an excursion in the art of non sequitur and ad hominem and in which piglet nearly meets a half a lump uh... He makes some conclusions or draws some conclusions that he kind of indicates that Dr. White didn't deal with certain things or is missing the point or... is somehow dodging the issue, the real issue, and I'm wondering if it's possible that you could interact with some of the points that he makes. Sure, now do you want to read them to me? Yeah, and he begins in his first section here, he says, now I'm not interested in a whole host of issues with which Dr. White seems to believe are critical to any discussion of his THD. I'm not interested in, one, his books, two articles, three tapes, and virtually all of the materials that he sells on his website and on the website of his church. The content and competence of those materials is not the issue. I'm simply shelving that question for the time being. Neither am I calling into question Dr. White's scholarship As he correctly notes, scholarship and degrees are two separate things. Again, I'm shelving that question for the time being. The one question with which I'm interested is the validity of Dr. White's THD. Did Dr. White do the things that normal doctoral students do to a degree? And in my opinion, there's nobody who can answer that question short of Dr. White himself, but no one who can answer that question more effectively than you, sir. well thank you i think the first thing we have to understand is there's an old phrase called framing the issue and uh... mister novak as is actually a bit of an expert at that when he said he's not interested in a whole host of issues and then he goes through to name he's not interested in doctor white's books and articles and tapes the problem of course is that he's saying he does not want to discuss the very product of doctor white's t h d So, in other words, he's not interested in the very things that Dr. White did to earn the degree. He's not interested in Dr. White's book on Roman Catholicism, but that was the product of one of his classes. He's not interested in Dr. White's book on Mormonism, but that was the product of one of his classes. He's not interested in Dr. White's book on the Trinity, but that was the product of one of his classes. So it's disingenuous for Mr. Novak to say on the one hand that he's not interested in the various scholarly products that James White has produced, he's only interested in what Dr. White did to earn his PhD, when in fact those products are the results of his PhD program. So it just doesn't follow. How can you say, I'm not interested in all the things he did for his degree, I'm only interested in what he did to earn his degree? Now, I did find this point interesting in that I got early on the impression, let me put it this way, I get the impression that in his concluding statements, I think he contradicts what he's interested in, as you read through the whole series. He puts a tone of sinister nature in, for instance, the King James Only controversy, a book being accepted by CES, the work that Dr. White did prior to coming to CES. Is something sinister going on there? I mean, is that something that's unusual? Is there a backroom? Well, in American education, in that a lot of schools want students to enroll first, do their program after the fact, and all their work after the fact. I don't want to brush all schools with one broad brush, but quite often the reason for that is because there's less money in just simply having students hand in work previously done, as long as that work wasn't done for credits elsewhere, because then they're not taking the students through the full program. There are schools in European countries that will, in fact, accept a book written as the final product of both dissertations and theses. So there's nothing unusual. There's nothing sinister about it. The thing is, one has to determine whether or not the material done rises to the level for the degree that the person is seeking. And then, two, the material done cannot have been used in the past for credits elsewhere. In Dr. White's book, the King James only controversy had not been used elsewhere. and anybody with any kind of honesty and integrity who reads that book will certainly think that it rises to the level of a master's degree thesis. So no, I catch the implication as well that you mentioned that Novak has there, and I noticed that throughout his writings, he has these little innuendos that make it look like you might be if you didn't know that you go you know what about that it seems like there's something wrong there in that particular case there's nothing wrong at all and this is something that he's thrown out there to give some sort of a false idea that uh... there is something sinister when in fact there's not Okay, interesting. Well, the next point that he goes into is really kind of in dealing with James's interaction with him, and he points to, as he puts it, he breaks them down, claim one, claim two, claim three. James, as he puts it, claims Mr. Novak did not bother to actually find out what the requirements for my doctorate were. Now, as I understand it from Mr. Novak's visit to CES, He visited with you, right? Right, that's true. Okay, so he says in response to that, actually I did, although not in the way that Dr. White would seemingly require. I read Dr. White's webpage on his degree. I read the entire Columbia Evangelical Seminary CES website. I ordered the CES catalog and read that in its entirety. I arranged for a visit to the seminary. I held Dr. White's master's contract in my hand and read that as well. Now, before you respond to that, I want to let folks know that actually later on in the program, we're going to be focusing on a book that you wrote regarding Christian distance learning. And the thing that I find interesting is that Mr. Novak, as I see it, is trying to pass himself off as someone who has an expertise in what the standards regarding how a school evaluates someone should be an R. But in fact, you've written a book on that subject. You're right, he does do that. He puts himself in a position... Well, what has happened, I think, and I give him somewhat credit here, is that he has seen how it operates in certain schools that he's been around, that he's worked with, and said, aha, therefore, all schools should work in the same fashion. The problem, of course, is if you deal with schools throughout the U.S., and if you deal with schools outside of the U.S., Things are not as simple, black and white, as one school may be. I know that Mr. Novak works with community college in Portland, Oregon, or Gresham, Oregon. There's a pattern there that they use, but that doesn't mean every school uses it. Some do, some don't. He's reading far too much into a set of schools, or a few schools, concepts about how they do things, and assuming that all schools must act the same way, and that's simply not true. But in his comment, you just read, you said that, or his comment said that he did check things out, he read Dr. White's webpage on his degree, he read the entire Columbia catalog, he in fact even held Dr. White's master's contract in his hand, master's contract, I thought his issue was the doctorate program. Yeah, that's an excellent point. Yeah, I mean, this is an amazing statement that he's arguing. James addresses the concept that he did not check what he did for his doctorate, and part of his response is, I even held his master's contract in my hand. It has nothing to do with it. Besides, the whole thing is simply astounding. Anyway, I would hope that any degree is more involved than simply what's on a school's website or in their catalog. and as far as holding doctor white's master's contract in his hand and reading it he did i was there he looked at it but it should be obvious that the contract is just an outline of the work and not the work itself but he just gets back to his initial framing of this of the issue i'm not interested in what he's produced i'm only interested in his degree well he can't be interested in the degree what he did for the great if he's not interested in what he produced and so he's he's looking at everything except the final product Interesting. I think when Mr. Novak says with great gusto that he has done his research into Dr. White's work, it's just simply false. Unless he's read all of Dr. White's books, articles, listened to the audio tapes that were the products of his DHD, then his boast that he has researched what Dr. White has done for his degree is simply ridiculous. And what's amazing is that he's specifically stated that he's not interested in any of that. Exactly. That's the disingenuousness. I'd like to come up with a quick analogy, nothing comes to mind, but to say simply, I'm not interested in all the things he's done for his degree, I just want to know what he did for his degree. I mean, the obvious smokescreen here is so blatant, I'm surprised that more people haven't caught it. Yeah, and what's fascinating about this is I think the analogy is pretty plain, and it has to do with the religion that Mr. Novak is involved in. It is typically a, don't confuse me with the facts, I've made my mind up. position. And I think that's really consistent. He is, at least in that regard, consistent as he's conducted himself here. Well, you know, I said earlier he's an expert at framing the issue. Mr. Novak, I think, has missed his calling. He should be a politician. Excellent point. Okay, as he deals with the next portion of James' remarks, claim number two, James speaking, my own program has amounted to more than four times the number of credit hours Mr. Novak indicated. And Mr. Novak responds, so what? I've never complained about the number of credit hours that Dr. White put into his degree. This is a non-issue. Indeed, Dr. White had already made much of the number of hours he put into his degree. This is simply besides the point. Now, I want to point out here that this is an outright lie. Because if you go back to, I believe it's item, I don't have the, let's see here. I've got papers here going right all, okay. In sections, let's see here. Where he talks about the standards, oh, okay, first of all, in his first correspondence, number seven, James White's master's contract also indicates he would do 45 hours. He points out how many hours he was to do, and then asks the question, or he says it wouldn't indicate what the courses were. But there's also another item in, ah, here it is. What does it take to get a real degree? In paragraph two, he says, typically, and he goes into all this, well, the whole point of James even mentioning this is in response to Novak bringing it up. And so that's what I found. I found absolutely amazing that he could turn around and say, oh, I never brought this up, so what? I never complained about this. Well, guess what he did? And not to say simply that he never complained about it. He says this is simply beside the point, which is amazing to me. I mean, anybody that's done any kind of academic studies knows that are exactly the point along with how much you could work you do the number of credit that one does for his degree cannot be to be beside the point because then you have some people do six credit for master's degree and another person did a hundred credits and then it's ludicrous to think that the number of credit is beside the point and in essence and i want to ask this question regarding quote credits can uh... can a student go to quote accredited schools And to get the same degree from one school, have to put in a different amount of hours for that degree as opposed to another school and have to put in much less? Actually, it depends on the degree. The MA, for instance, is kind of a slippery degree. In one school, an MA may be 32 credits. In another school, an MA in a different subject matter may be 96 credits. So there are some leeway between schools as to how many credits goes with an MA, for instance. but there are some degrees that are pretty standard india this typically uh... ninety six credits they're about sometimes a few is ninety uh... credit but that's pretty close the t h m that uh... doctor white did is uh... a hundred and twenty eight credits which a lot of people don't even realize that uh... the t h m if one starts with a bachelor's degree and as a t h m you have four years ahead of you for that degree it's it is in fact the largest master's degree in any field And not only did James do the THD with us, excuse me, THM with us, the Master of Penalty, but he brought credits in from Fuller that he had already done an MA. Now, I don't remember right off how many credits that he did for his MA in Fuller, but he was able, of course, to transfer those in and then complete, finish off the rest, which was a total of 128 credits. So there is some leeway between some degrees, but certain degrees are pretty standard. Interesting. Um, okay. And we are, we're burning time like crazy here, but this is a fascinating, um, discussion, I think, um, going to, um, I'm actually going to shift gears a little bit here. Um, cause I think in, well, let's talk about this a second. All right. Claim number three, quoting me about 155 total students passed through the institution. Dr. White has, has not confirmed that number, but it sounds right. He responds, I am gratified that I was able to report something correctly. I'm all the more gratified because Rick Walston provided the number. Hopefully Dr. White and I agree that CES is a very small school and in eight years has been able to attract only a handful of students. So is that what you're guilty of there, Dr. Walston? Yeah, this is humorous on two levels. Number one, Why? He doesn't say why we are, quote-unquote, unable to attract students. And then number two, what has this got to do with what he said he's interested in, what James White did for his degree? How many students we have is completely irrelevant to what James did for his degree. Again, the smokescreens, the disingenuous concepts, I mean, the statements, they're just full of them. But let's talk about the statement that a handful of students is somehow an issue. There's a lot of schools, as you mentioned earlier, I've written a book on distance learning, and it's in its fourth edition, and it's been out now for almost a decade. And I co-authored that book in the early editions with one Dr. John Baer, who is probably the granddaddy of distance learning education and what that means. He's worked with the FBI in both tracking down diplomats. He's also appeared in federal court. as the expert fbi witness in helping to to bust diploma bills he's also worked with programs like inside edition sixty minutes uh... various was like this most recently he was on good morning america just i think in the last couple months uh... doctor white books excuse me doctor bears books on these topics have sold well over three hundred thousand and he is just the end of undisputed champion of this concept. Now, he and I together produced the first two issues of the book that I'm talking about. In doing my research and in having Dr. Baer's input over the years, I have found hundreds of schools that operate so substandardly that a person can simply listen to an hour-long audio tape and answer ten questions, true or false, and then get their degree. And I know that sounds ridiculous, but it actually goes on. Now, some of these type schools have, they claim, thousands and thousands of graduates. Now, would Mr. Novak, taking his logic, would he go on to say, therefore, these schools that have so many graduates must be good. CES must be bad because we only have a handful. But this school, which has, you know, 10,000 graduates, but they only require an hour-long tape for a degree or a class, they must be good. I mean, it's just absolutely ludicrous. One of the things that we've always strived to do as a school is demand excellent work. And we've had a lot of people simply drop out because they realize once they're enrolled, whoops, this is too hard. And so the fact that we have had few students go through our program has never been a negative for us. It's always been a point of a positive because we would rather have 10 people graduate per year who have really put in the work, who are able now to put a degree on the wall that they can be proud of than a hundred thousand students going through that do nothing for their degree. So again, two things. Number one, this has nothing to do with what changed my difference degree. And number two, the concept that simply because we're small, we're bad, just doesn't fly. Okay, well, Dr. Walston, we're going to take a quick break here and we'll pick this up on the other side. I look forward to that conversation. We'll put you on hold and we'll be right back with The Dividing Line. Incorporating the most recent research and solid biblical truth, Letters to a Mormon Elder is a series of personal letters written to a fictional Mormon missionary. Examining the teachings and theology of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the book brings a relational approach to material usually presented in textbook style. James White draws from his extensive apologetics ministry to thousands of Mormons in presenting the truth of Christianity. With well-defined arguments, James White provides readers with insight and understanding into the Book of Mormon, the prophecies, visions, and teachings of Joseph Smith, the theological implications of the doctrines of Mormonism, and other major historical issues relevant to the claims of the LDS Church. This marvelous study is a valuable text for Christians who talk with Mormons and is an ideal book to be read by Mormons. Letters to a Mormon Elder. Be sure to get your copy today in the Mormonism section of our bookstore at AOMN.org. answering those who claim that only the King James Version is the Word of God. James White, in his book, The King James Only Controversy, examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true Christian faith. In a readable and responsible style, author James White traces the development of Bible translations, old and new, and investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611. You can order your copy of James White's book, The King James Only Controversy, by going to our website at www.aomin.org. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his Church. The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with us this coming Lord's Day. Our morning Bible study begins at 9.30 a.m. and our worship service is at 10.45. Evening services are at 6.30 p.m. on Sunday and Wednesday prayer meeting is at 7. We are located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 26 Grace or look us up on the web at www.prbc.org. Millions of petitioners from around the world are employing Pope John Paul II to recognize the Virgin Mary as co-redeemer with Christ, elevating the topic of Roman Catholic views of Mary to national headlines and widespread discussion. In his book, Mary, Another Redeemer, James White sidesteps hostile rhetoric and cites directly from Roman Catholic sources to explore this volatile topic. He traces how Mary of the Bible, esteemed mother of the Lord, obedient servant, and chosen vessel of God, has become the immaculately conceived bodily assumed Queen of Heaven, viewed as co-mediator with Christ, and now recognized as co-redeemer by many in the Roman Catholic Church. Mary, Another Redeemer is fresh insight into the woman the Bible calls blessed among women, and an invitation to single-minded devotion to God's truth. You can order your copy of James White's book, Mary, Another Redeemer, at aomin.org. And welcome back to The Dividing Line. My name is Rich Pierce and I'm sitting in for Dr. White this week as he is back in New York. Yes, it's great debate time all over again. And he is, in fact we heard from him about 15 minutes before the program started, and he sounded like a very tired puppy. Let me tell you, they like to run him all around when when they get him back there and uh... my understanding is that he taught from nine a.m. to three p m uh... today and one must understand that that's new york time so he finally uh... finished up i guess around uh... six p m uh... that night so anyway with uh... we are talking with doctor rick walston and we're going over some of the claims that uh... mister gary novak uh... has made on his website uh... a few years ago and those claims have been now picked up by the shields people And we're kind of responding to and going over the claims that he's made in his summation. Dr. Walston, are you still there? I'm here. All right. I'm glad to hear that. Let me tell you. We will be taking some phone calls here from you folks. Soon, I hope, as the lines are starting to light up. Again, it's 866-854-6763. And, Dr. Walts, I do want to apologize about last week. We, well, I tell you, sometimes we just never know who's shooting at us. And sometimes those shots require immediate response. And so I kind of got a little bit preempted on our program. And it was a surprise. So I want to apologize for not being able to get you on when we had hoped to be able to do that. Not a problem. In fact, I would like to address one thing. One of our students lives in China, Dan Malone, and he wrote an email after I did not appear on the broadcast last week, and he said, Dr. Walson refuses to be on the Dividing Line broadcast unless he can promote his garage sale. Well, the funny thing is, my wife is handling the garage sale today as we speak. Serious, I'm serious. uh... my gosh what is going on and i think the point that well folks uh... if you're listening in washington i want you to remember for the doctor walston's got a garage sale going on to go and i don't get over there and i didn't want to come on up to get over there and help out okay well let's uh... let's quickly uh... get through the remaining items uh... at least the high points of water on uh... mister novak's list here i think we've at least painted uh... pretty clearly the basis of the remarks we've covered already and Let me um, let me just summarize here. What's going on with the library thing? Okay, what's you know, he gets into this? There's no library man. And of course you probably heard my uh, my comments in the last program about well, you know, I still I think the biggest thing that CES needs to be legitimate is a football team and And even without the football team, there's, you know, people don't have ability to, you know, to be able to do real studies without a football team. You gotta have the sports. Well, earlier I mentioned Dr. John Baer, my co-author of the first two editions of my book. He once said that for those schools like ours, we should just have a chess team so that we could play at a distance. So I thought that was pretty good. Well, you know, that's one good point. A debate team might be rather appropriate as well. But now he seems to make a big deal, and I think I know the answer to this, but he makes a big deal about the library thing and really going after, I guess, the legitimacy of CES not providing its students with the kind of learning environment that, say, for instance, a Rio Salado here in Arizona, because they would have a library there that the student can go to to do research, to deal with his workload. I know Mr. Novak had pointed out a couple schools that were on-campus schools that also offered distance learning education. See, that's where the breakdown of logic comes. If you have an on-campus school, of course they have a library. But if you don't have it on campus school, if it's a distance learning program, why would you have a library? I'm reminded of one of our graduates, a doctor of ministry graduate who lived in Scotland. Well, for goodness sakes, I cannot imagine demanding him to fly to America to use our library. I mean, that would just be ludicrous. We were able to set him up with a mentor who lived in Wales. It wasn't too far from where he was at. The mentor himself is the president of the National Library of Wales, which is a Queen-appointed position, as I understand it. So I don't think that the man was without resources, just that he could not fly to Longview, where our headquarters is, and say, well, I'm going to study here at the library. I mean, it was just, it's an obvious red herring again. It's one of those things that simply does not make sense. In my own Doctor of Ministry that I did through an accredited school, which is an issue for Dr. Novak, he wants to be accredited, so let's talk about that for just a second. I want to correct you there, it's Mr. Novak, not Dr. Novak. Good, thanks for that correction. Mr. Novak makes a point of the accreditation issue. And I did a Doctor of Ministry from an accredited school, and they have a library. I didn't enter their library one time. I purchased the various necessary books for the classes, I used internet resources, my own library, which numbers nearly 2,000 volumes. I mean, what was the point of me going to a library where my own personal library was probably as large, if not larger, than what they had? Plus, other students that I was studying with at the time also never entered the library. It's not that you cannot do research at their library. I mean, you can do research in a lot of areas. And internet is certainly one of the areas you can do the research with. So the concept that a school has to have a library or that some schools that offer distance learning have libraries, therefore, again, it just doesn't make sense. And the other thing is, I think the thing that's being missed here is, like you mentioned, the mentoring factor. And one of the things that I think James really appreciates about the way CES does things is the fact that the mentor and the student frame the work. And so when the mentor sits down with that student or corresponds with that student in the beginning of the program, as they lay out what that workload is going to be, and for whatever reason, let's say the mentor decides that this particular book needs to be part of the curriculum that this individual is going to have to study, and part of their studies, then in that circumstance the mentor is going to day how did he get up a knowledge of the book okay well somewhere along the line i've seen james do this i don't know how many times it's called interlibrary loan and there are times when in doing what we do in apologetics these books are not uh... well-known and we have to uh... and sometimes are not even in the english language and uh... i've seen james go over to issue and go in there and order a book that's clear across the country in a library, bring it in under interlibrary loan, and then... What you're saying, and may I interrupt for a second? Sure, go ahead. What you're saying is that this individual, James in this case, and other students of ours, are learning how to do research, not just go into their school's library. Now if, let's say for instance in Longview, We have a library for CES and students come into the Longview Library, but then they move and they move to Boston. Well, how are they going to do research unless they've learned how to go about doing exactly what you're talking about? That's part of the education. A lot of the problem with the traditional schooling, in my opinion, is that students are spoon-fed and they're learning how to learn. They learn things by rote memory. They repeat that on a test. They get their degree and they go on with life, but they haven't learned how to learn. They haven't learned how to research. And in our program, students, they're going to have to research or they're going to die. And students do. They learn how to research. And I've had people who have transferred into our school with accredited master's degrees, going on for their doctorate degrees. And they said, oh, wow, I didn't realize how much work was behind this. Because they'd had things spoofed to them up to that point. Okay, moving on here. I want to tell you, I am, you know what, folks, I'm interested in kind of covering the remainder of these points, but we are running out of time and I want to give Dr. Walston's book, Justice, I want to be able to discuss that, as well as what's going on at CES. So, let me just ask you, if there are points that Mr. Novak has brought up that we haven't covered yet that you really want to jump into, I want to give you that opportunity to do that right now. Yeah, there was one that I thought was quite humorous, it's where he talks about, let's see, I'm not sure what number this is, where he talks about that, uh, he noted with some irony that one can access certain dissertation abstracts from various locations, but he couldn't get James's abstract for his dissertation. And then he asks this question. And again, this is the framing of the issue. It's the insinuation. It's the sinister aspect. He says, will it ever be listed? If not, why? And it's just, it's so ominous, you know, my goodness, he doesn't have it listed in some abstract group. And if it's not, Why isn't it? And will it ever be? And if not, why? You know, and the funny thing is, there's a group called the Theological Research Exchange Network, T.R.E.N. is short for that. You can look that up on T.R.E.N. dot com. T.R.E.N. charges a mere $30 or $40 to have your dissertation or your thesis archived. And so it's not an issue. It's not a big thing. And it's not that CES can't do it. It's just that none of the students have ever required it. Nobody's wanted it. I earned an accredited master's degree, and I wrote a master's thesis. I earned an accredited doctor of ministry, and I wrote a dissertation for that. I earned an accredited doctor of philosophy, and I wrote a dissertation for that. And as far as I know, because the student has to sign off on it, none of these three works at accredited schools ever made it into those same networks. You can do it if you want to. You don't have to if you don't. He makes it sound as if it's part of the whole process, and if it isn't done, then it's not right. But again, even if it were part of the process to simply pay somebody to put it on a microfiche, the point is, it still does not address what he said he's interested in, and that is, what work did he do for the degree? Now he's saying, what did he do with the degree after he did it? So it still doesn't fall in line with what he says he's interested in. Yeah, and there's a number of double standards throughout the entire process of interaction on Mr. Novak's part. I want to point something out to you that I don't think, well, I know you're not aware of. Now, I'm going to ask you a question here regarding, if you will, the genre, the whole of what you read on Mr. Novak's site, and then ask you a question. If Mr. Novak had a copy of the tax return of Alpha and Omega Ministries, do you think he would have used it? I certainly don't know. I'd be guessing in the wind. It wouldn't be surprising to me to see, from what I've seen so far, to see something like that happen. Mr. Novak, as I said, has a way of making things seem dark and mysterious and sinister, so it wouldn't surprise me, put it that way. Well, Mr. Novak requested our tax return back in December of 1997. I sent him, and it was two years worth of tax returns, I sent him a copy of our tax returns for 1995-96, as I recall. and he had those of them in his possession in the middle of all this and he never once mentioned it and you see as i understand it that's my understanding that the uh... non-profit organization uh... if it's certainly at the time if any of the employees are making more than fifty thousand dollars uh... a year the uh... the individual has to be listed hence public information on the tax return And since in the one year, I believe we made about $50,000 and the other year it was about $60,000 for the entire organization. I would guess that Mr. Novak found himself quite disappointed when he received these in that he wasn't going to be able to post James White's salary and all the other incredible excesses that these people are down there building their Alpha and Omega empire. would have had to work with. So I wanted to at least put that out there that folks, not all of what Mr. Novak has accomplished or accomplished has been interested in. Again, why would that be relevant? He's not interested in that kind of stuff, right? It's public information. Yeah, exactly. Now let's shift gears here and let's see here. You know what? How would you like to talk with a CES student? Sure. Let's let's go ahead and bring hang on here. I have to play a little bit of a game with our phone system. Oh, wrong one. Hello. Is this CDS? Sorry? I don't know you know what I think oh my gosh I think I just hung up our caller we don't do this very often with the with having a guest online and so I am typing into the chat room right now call back in quick All right, and the caller is Colin Smith, and so we want to get him back on the line here before long here. But let's go into, you know, I have to tell you, and I am I've personally not been a higher education student. I met up with Dr. White long before he was Dr. White, and I remember when he became, and he hates this term, Reverend White. And I've worked with him, I've learned so much from him over the years. But I found your book an absolutely fascinating read. And I think that what I found especially fascinating was how much I learned about what these terms that go behind somebody's name mean, and what these, you know, doctor of philosophy, and you go into all this. But I think the most important thing that I gained from it was a knowledge of what goes into for instance, accreditation. And I'd like you to talk about that. I'd like you to elaborate on what is the difference between an unaccredited school and an accredited school, and what's the point of that? Right. Well, the differences are varied, and it would be difficult to go into all of them. The basic concept of accreditation is that there is a group of so-called neutral individuals who are academicians in their own right, who have reviewed a school and have given their stamp of approval. Now, an unaccredited school, then, probably has not had that same process. Now, they may have had the process, but they may not have had it through the proper channels, if you will, the Department of Education and so on. So, Mystic CES, for instance, is not accredited. We have not pursued it, and at this point, we are not planning on pursuing it. It's not because we could not be accredited, it's just that We have certain things that we offer in very flexible ways that does not fit with what is typical in accreditation. Now, we talked to an accrediting association some time ago about pursuing accreditation. And of course, they said, sure, we can do that. But to do so, we want you to drop all of your offerings and offer only the Master of Divinity program. Once you do that, and once that's accredited, then you can offer the Doctor of Ministry program. Now, when I presented this to our Board of Regents, One of the members said, wait a minute, why did we start the school to begin with? We started the school to reach people who couldn't, for whatever reason, go live on a college campus or go through a traditional route. We wanted to help people who couldn't, because of finances or family or even disabilities, go live on a college campus. If we were to do these things now, if we were to go just the MDiv and just the DMin, what would make us different than the other 100, 200, or 300 schools out there who are accredited do the exact same thing. So we decided as a board not to pursue accreditation. Not because it's not a good thing. I think accreditation's a great thing. But it wasn't going to fit what we were called to do. The main thing about accreditation as far as the outcome is this. If a student wants to work in a job, a ministry, or whatever career that the gatekeepers the people to whom he's going to go and present his resume to, the gatekeepers. If the gatekeepers say it has to be from an accredited school, then it has to be from an accredited school. If the gatekeepers, however, are not concerned whether it's accredited, they're only concerned about the education behind the studies, then why spend the money for an accredited program when a non-accredited degree will open the same doors with those gatekeepers? The concept that accreditation somehow is the sacred cow of education in America is flawed. Accreditation is not a static thing. It's changed over the years. Various groups have... The accreditors, in fact, themselves have changed. In fact, sometime back in the mid, I think, or late 90s, There was an accrediting association that came down very hard on a certain seminary because the seminary had no women on its board. And they said, if you do not have women on your board, we're not going to renew your accreditation. I asked, what does having a woman on a board have to do with academic studies? Absolutely nothing. Very politically correct, though, which seems to be, you know, getting rampant in academia. That's exactly correct. And so there's nothing wrong with accreditation. I want to make that very clear. And accreditation can be and is often a very good thing for those who need accredited degrees. But for those who don't, if you go and pursue an accredited degree and you don't need one, you're going to be spending money that you don't need to spend. You're going to be spending time away from your family that you shouldn't have to be doing. You may even have to take time off work or even move your family to another city, another state and live on campus, all for an accredited degree. that will not open any more doors for you if your gatekeepers don't care if it's accredited or not. Yeah, and you know the thing is that struck me also about accreditation is I discovered something I had no idea and that is that there's organizations out there that claim to be accredited or to be accrediting organizations. Right. But in fact, they're not recognized by the Department of Education. Right. And that's one of the biggest problems for people who don't know any better. I have people all the time calling our school and saying, are you accredited? And I say, no. And they say, thank you. Goodbye. And I try to interrupt them and ask them, why do you think you need an accredited degree? And quite often they say, I don't know. I just thought so. And the problem is, is they're going to call some school who is accredited by a non-recognized accreditor. And that school is going to say, yes, we're accredited. And it does not mean the same thing as a school that's accredited by a recognized accreditor, recognized by the U.S. Department of Education. Rich, you and I could start an accrediting association and call it Rick and Rich's Accrediting Association. And there's nothing illegal about that. We could then accredit our own school. We could start Rich and Rick's Seminary. And then we could accredit our own seminary. Again, there's nothing illegal. There should be, but there's not. There's no laws against this. Now what happens is when people enroll in this school, Rich and Rick Seminary, and we tell them we're accredited, we are flat lying to them because the accreditation that we have, the legal, is absolutely worthless in American academia because it's not recognized by the U.S. Department of Education. So a school that's not accredited, is not the issue a school that's not accredited that's lying about some sort of false accreditation is the issue well i i think what i found uh... absolutely fascinating about uh... you or you can in the back of your book you actually list several uh... schools that you investigated yourself and uh... i've just i find your evaluations fascinating as you go through and you set up a standard for what's in a non-accredited school, what's a good idea, what's a good measure for how to judge that school? How to look at that? And one thing you mentioned to me that I did not know, Bob Jones University. Bob Jones, to my knowledge, is, you know, even those who disagree with it politically, Bob Jones, to my understanding, is an excellent institution, but it's not accredited. Why not? I didn't catch that last thing. Why not? Well, as far as I understand, and I really can't speak for them, but only from what I've heard, they simply want to keep the separation of church and state. Because ultimately, there's a bit of a misunderstanding here. Not all accrediting associates... Let me back up and say it this way. There is no such thing as governmental accreditation. A lot of schools will say, we don't want the government to accredit us. Well, the government does not accredit. It is private accrediting organizations that accredit. The government plays a part only in that they recognize these accreditors. And because of that recognition, they receive the state, I mean, the financial aid, the tuition, the assistance, and all that sort of thing. But still, there is, to some level, in accredited schools, that affiliation with the state. And so Bob Jones University has always said, we don't want to have that. We are a Christian organization. We want to stand on our own two feet as such. And they've done a great job in doing so. It's an excellent school. Excellent. And we actually have a gentleman who substitutes periodically for us, Simon Escobedo, who went to Bob Jones. And here's the thing. It comes back to folks like Mr. Novak, etc. What I want to know is, How is it that a man like James White goes to an institution and earns his degree in an institution that Mr. Novak and other Mormons want to call into question as a legitimate school? And yet, I tell you, this man stands toe-to-toe with the best of them at BYU. And they have, frankly, no words in trying to deal with him. Exactly. He frustrates them right and left, and he does it with the facts. He does it with the education that he has, and he does it with an educational level that you can't get at BYU. Right. And see, that's the issue. It goes back to what Mr. Novak said in his opening statement. He has no desire to talk about James' books, tracks, audio tapes, or his scholarship. Well, you have to. To divorce these things from his education is impossible. That's like making a cake and then saying, after the cake's made, extract the eggs. You can't do it. And the product of any education is the person's work and his scholarship. And so for Mr. Novak to say, I'm interested in what he's done for his degree, but I'm not interested in looking at anything he's produced for his degree. it just doesn't make sense. And the whole end product should be, not necessarily is it accredited, but what does it do for the student? Does it advance him or her in his or her ministry and for the cause of Christ? Excellent. Well, I'll tell you what, we're going to go ahead and take another break here real quick, and we'll be right back right here on The Dividing Line. Is the Mormon my brother? Bethany House Publishers presents James White's book, Is the Mormon my brother? In television campaigns, parachurch events, and clergy fellowships all across the United States, Mormons are presenting themselves as mainstream Christians. Is it unloving or backward to say they aren't real Christians? In contrast to Christian monotheism, the belief in one God, Mormonism teaches that God was once a man who lived on another planet and was exalted to the status of God, and that Mormon men can also become gods upon death and resurrection. In his book, Is the Mormon My Brother?, James White demonstrates how this fact alone means Mormons and Christians are irreconcilably at odds at faith's most basic level. Is the Mormon my brother? is now available from Alpha and Omega Ministries Book Ministry. You can order Is the Mormon my brother? from our website at www.aomin.org. I'm James White, author of The Same-Sex Controversy and The Roman Catholic Controversy, announcing two upcoming debates I'm having on Long Island, New York. First, I'll be facing notorious liberal activist Barry Lynn of Americans United for Separation of Church and State on the theme, Is Homosexuality Compatible with Authentic Christianity? Thursday night, May 24th at 7.30 at Central Presbyterian Church in Huntington. Next, I'll be facing renowned Catholic scholar and priest Peter Stravinskas on the theme, Purgatory, Biblical or Mythical? Thursday night, May 31st at 7.30 at the Huntington Townhouse Catering Hall. For information, call toll-free 1-866-DEBATE-1. That's 1-866-DEBATE-1. I hope you can attend both the May 24th debate on homosexuality and the May 31st debate on purgatory. Call toll-free 1-866-DEBATE-1. The Conference on Rome. Over 13 hours examining major doctrines and issues that separate Roman Catholicism from Biblical Christianity. Featuring the leading Protestant apologists on Rome in America today. Listen to Dr. Eric Svensson's presentation, Rome has spoken, the matter is debatable. When the Roman Catholic apologists insist that the principle of Sola Scriptura has resulted in over 25,000 denominations, we should in turn insist that the principle of Scripture plus an infallible interpreter has resulted in an even greater number of religious cults. Pastor Rob Zins addresses the evangelical romance with Rome. There was not a Roman Catholic Church in the first five centuries. There was, to be sure, a Catholic Church. But this is the universal designation of the body of Christ. It is not Romanism. How is one himself to have that righteousness which God requires, yea, demands, and which is utterly indispensable to salvation? It is by faith. And by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. And we lay hold of the Lord Jesus by faith alone. And Dr. James White examines the veneration of saints and images. Do you think of such a person were brought before Moses having just been caught bowing down before a statue and lighting candles and rocking back and forth in prayer. Do you think Moses would have accepted the excuse. I wasn't giving Latria Moses I was only giving Julia. Other topics addressed in this tape series, is there something about Mary? Scripture sufficiency, the Roman versus Protestant view, canonizing the Apocrypha, an assault on Scripture, Rome's sacraments, an assault on Christ's gospel, and purgatory, an assault on Christ's perfect atonement. Look for this tape series and many others at AOMIN.org. That's A-O-M-I-N dot O-R-G, The Conference on Rome. And we're back on the dividing line this afternoon, and we are talking with our guest, Dr. Rick Walston of Columbia Evangelical Seminary. And let's go ahead and bring him back on the line real quick here. And then, Dr. Walston, I am going to try it once again to talk with our first caller, Colin. Hang on just a second here, Colin. And we go there, and we go there, and we go there. And, oh my gosh, is Colin there? Colin? I hear a voice in the background. Colin, how are you? Dr. Walston, are you there? Oh, excellent. Boy, that sounds so good. Boy, I tell you, I rewired the board and... You know, I'm usually sitting on the other side of the wall, Dr. Walston. I'm the guy that, like, you know, wires everything together, gets a brainstorm, and goes, oh, wow, this will work really good. And then I get over here, and the poor guy who subs for me when I'm on this side is dealing with all kinds of feedback. But he's done a fantastic job today clearing all that up, and I think we've got a real good sound going on today. Well, I don't know what's going on over there, but to me, everything sounds like it's running really well. I'm glad to hear it. Now, Colin, you are a student currently at CES. Is that correct? That is correct, yes. James White is my mentor. Really? Yes. Dr. James White is your mentor. Now let me ask you a question here. First of all, and you and I have talked about this just a little bit, what motivated you to choose CES and what kind of educational background, where were you at when you came to that crossroads of making the decision to go to Columbia Evangelical Seminary? Well, briefly, I had come to the United States back in 92, and I came here having just graduated Hull University in England with a Bachelor of Arts in Theology. And it had been my heart's desire to pursue a Master's degree at some point. But I was recently married, I was looking for work, and so financially it wasn't possible. And as the years went by, and it looked as if it might be financially possible, I was looking within the area. And the nearest seminary was a good two and a half hours drive away. They did have a program where I could do courses at the weekend. But as I looked at the prices of seminary, I suddenly realized, well, maybe it's not as financially possible as I thought. So about, let's see, probably about five years ago, I started researching distance education programs. And my research then, I think CES had come across my table. I kind of assessed it along with others and kind of put it off and eventually a couple of years ago, well probably a little over a year ago, I got into the chat room and got to know a little bit more about CES through James and really at that point kind of really did a little bit more of a serious evaluation of CES and what it offers and having gotten to know James and his qualifications, not just what he has written on a piece of paper but actually his books and his debates and, you know, talking to him and actually getting to know him as a, not only as a brother in Christ, but as a scholar. I thought, you know, I could do a lot worse than studying under James White. And if CES provides the platform for that, and, you know, then there's got to be something that is worthwhile. And as I investigated, I thought, you know, This looks like a really good program. This looks flexible, where I can really concentrate my study in the areas where I really want to study, that I don't have to deal with a lot of fluff, that I can really get down and do some serious work in theology and come out with a degree at the end of it. So that's really, briefly, what motivated me to CES. May I say something here? Yeah, please. Well, one of the things I just heard Colin say, and I think this is the key, he said it wasn't so much that James had some piece of paper, but he looked at his scholarship, he looked at his books, he looked at these sorts of things. This is again the point of education. What is the product? What will the student learn? What will be the outcome? And I think that if we take a look at that seriously and find out what it is that this is going to do for me, I think that CES is going to be up there with any of the other schools, the accredited schools as well. In fact, there was some time ago, people, I started getting letters from people who were saying, The amount of work that we were requiring was far more than they had done at various accredited schools, seminaries, and universities. In fact, we had to back off in some of our quantity levels. have more work to do, our students do, than a lot of accredited schools. The point isn't what's the name across the door, how big is the library? The point is what will the student walk away with in scholarship, his learning, his ability to learn, and his ability to go on with life as a learner. And you know, you forwarded me, by the way, folks, Dr. Walston does periodically on his website, ColumbiaSeminary.edu, an item called Coffee Talk. And in the latest Coffee Talk, I found a section where you mentioned something regarding martial arts. And if you could share that story, I thought it was very pertinent to the, if you will, reality of what's really going on here. Sure. There was, once upon a time, a friend of mine who's an ex-Marine. Somebody once told me that you shouldn't call them ex-Marines. I don't know if you would call that retired Marine or what, because he said, once a Marine, always a Marine. But anyway, my friend's name is Rick, and he's 6'4", ex-Marine, and has a black belt in about three different disciplines. And I remember one time asking him if he would teach me, if we could take some time each week that he could teach me the finer arts of martial arts. And he was not teaching martial arts at that time, although he had taught at accredited schools in the past. At this point, he was actually pastoring. And he said, well, you know, I could teach you, but it really wouldn't mean anything. And I said, what do you mean it wouldn't mean anything? And he said, well, after you've done all the work, I could recognize that you have reached a level of black belt. But since it's not from an accredited school, you really wouldn't get a black belt. And I said, well, let me put it this way. After four or five years of studying with you, if someone were to attack my wife, would I be able to defend her and myself? And he said, of course. And I said, then why would I need a black belt? Isn't a black belt just a belt that's black? The whole point is, what is the product? And for me in that situation, I didn't care if I got a stamp of approval by a certain accredited school. I wanted the ability to be able to protect myself and my wife if that event ever should arise. And the point was the education that came from it, whether or not it was from an accredited school, was irrelevant to me. And I think that's so important. You told me a story, and we won't get into names here, but you recently received a phone call or some correspondence from a gentleman who's been going to another school. I can barely hear you. Um, okay. How about that? Can you hear me? Okay. Well, um, you recently told me about an experience where a caller, someone had called you or you received an email in CES who I guess had gone to one of these schools that he found out they said they were accredited, but it wasn't recognized by the Department of Education. Right. And he talked about how much he learned in a year and how much he covered. And can you share that? That's I mean, we don't need to get into names and who's and where's. But but I just thought that was so sad. Right. And this is this gets back to what I was talking about earlier, that there's a lot of substandard schools with a lot of quote unquote graduates. And this fellow had gotten himself into two different schools, actually. He had finished a bachelor's degree and almost finished a Master of Theology all in two years. Now, a Master of Theology by itself, and I mentioned this earlier, is a four-year program. How in the world a person could complete a bachelor's degree and a Master of Theology in two years? There's something wrong. By the way, too, you mentioned that they said that they were accredited, and they weren't. That's true too. And again, it's not an issue of whether a school is accredited or not. It's an issue of whether or not the school is lying to you about accreditation. And the school was. In fact, both of them were. So I asked him at the master's level, what are you being required to do for each class? And he said he listens to a series of audio tapes that probably equal less or fewer than five hours. And then he takes an exam. It's basically a true or false exam. And he hands that in. And somehow this is considered three credits worth of classwork. And it simply is not. The fact that he could produce or complete, I guess, a bachelor's degree and nearly a master's degree in a period of two years Obviously, there's just something wrong, but this is happening all over. There are schools out there by the hundreds, and I write about them in my book. In fact, I warn people about them, where people can get degrees in a very short period of time. There was another school where a fellow earned, I think it was two master's degrees and two doctorate degrees in an eight-month period. How could that even possibly be? Obviously, people need to stay away from those kinds of schools, but here's what I've found over the years working with CES. We've had people apply for our school, look through the program, understand that they're going to do real work, drop out, go to one of these schools, and have a degree in their hand within eight months to a year. And what does that degree really mean, if that's how they went about getting it? Well, exactly. And if they're pastoring, and a lot of them are, I want to know not just what does it really mean, how can that possibly honor Christ? How can they possibly present that to their church board and be proud of it? It's an amazing idea that, I mean, it's an amazing thing that some people try to pull this off. In fact, they don't just try it, they actually do. Colin, how's your experience been now that you're at Columbia and going through the workload that you've, shall we say, been faced with? It's a workload. It is. I completed a writing protocol class recently. Now isn't that the easiest class, Colin? Sorry? Okay, you guys are going to have to let us in on the joke there. I'll let Colin tell you. I'm sorry, I didn't catch what you said, Ray. I said, isn't that the easiest class, the writing protocols? I was joking. Well, actually, probably for most people, I don't know that it really is because I can understand why CES offers that and why CES actually requires the writing protocols because I know people who have been through seminary and their use and abuse of the English language is quite astonishing. But so far my experience has been really good and I'm in the process of writing a term paper for Dr. White, having done probably in excess of 1600 pages of reading for the course. And it's, I mean, you know, it couldn't really work any other way than distance education, given that I have a family. I've got a wife and four kids. I'm pastoring a church, and I'm working a full-time job as well. So really, I need to be able to fit this in. I don't need to be required to turn up to class on, you know, for four hours in the morning or whatever. You know, I need to be able to just fit this time in as my schedule permits it. You know, the flexibility is really, I mean, that's the main, in my mind, that's one of the real advantages of the distance education program. and the fact that my mentor is but email away. Are you sure you're not really just talking about a shortcut here in your life and you're just trying to... If I wanted a shortcut I would have pulled the money together and gone to seminary. Like one of the ones down the road. On the heels of that we had a fellow I really hesitate to say the name of the university, but let me put it this way. There was a fellow that was finishing his bachelor's degree at a major Ivy League university, and of course it cost so much money to do so, and he simply ran out of funds, and he called me and he said, would you accept credits from the school? And I said, well, of course, you know, who wouldn't? And so he enrolled in our program, and he wanted to finish the Bachelor of Theology. He took two classes, and he called me and he says, is there any way possible that we can make these classes easier? And I said, no, sorry. And he said, well, I hate to do this, but I'm going to go back to X school because even though it's a lot more expensive, it's a lot less work. And he did. He dropped out, went back to the Ivy League University. Wow. And I didn't mean to interrupt you there, Colin. I just kind of wanted to throw that in there because you're going down the road of the family considerations, the fact that you're there pastoring a church. And these things have to come into account as you look for higher education. But the question has to be asked, and this is where you are going, is what is your motivation for seeking that higher education? Is it for, shall we say, as the world likes to say, upward mobility? So you can have the degree on the wall that gets you the bigger paycheck? Well, for me especially, this is one of the issues, and I'm glad that Dr. Walston addressed this on the CES website. And for me, what really answered the question was What am I going to use this education for? Am I looking to go to one of the local Baptist seminaries and be a professor there? Well, that might be nice, and it might look nice on my resume, but quite frankly, I'm interested in pastoring a church, and I'm interested in seeing the lives of the people in that church enhance their relationships with Christ. grow as a result of being under the ministry of the leadership of the church of which I'm a part. And I sincerely believe that this education will enable me and empower me to be able to accurately present good information to those people. It will help me in my studies of theology and my studies of Greek and Hebrew and all these things that I'm going to be able to better provide the flock with quality information that my prayer is that they would then be able to utilize in their Bible studies that would cause them to grow. And, I mean, you don't need to be accredited. You don't need to go to an accredited school for that. You just need to go to a school where you're going to get taught it. Exactly. Excellent point. You know, as I'm listening to this, something struck me that there is a gentleman that we've interacted with and debated, etc., that's now coming from a Catholic perspective, that graduated from Jimmy Swaggart Bible College. Now, I know about Jimmy Swaggart, but Dr. Walston, is there anything you can tell me when you get into, like, for instance, some of these different colleges or seminaries that are... I'm lost for words in how to describe my feeling about it, but how is, for instance, have you looked at Jimmy Swaggart Bible College? Actually, I have not. And the reason why I have not is because as I understand it, it's not a distance learning program. My research pretty much deals with schools that are. And as I understand it, one has to go live on a college campus, so it really wouldn't fit any reason for me to research it and to put it in my book. The only thing that I can say about it, and this is a guess but I think it's an educated one at that, is that when you go to a school like that you're going to hear and you're going to learn what they want you to hear and learn. You're going to be told basically what to believe rather than being allowed to openly discuss and debate various topics. It's like in our school we have people from various backgrounds on our faculty and various backgrounds in our student body and if a student disagrees with the mentor it's not an issue of a grade, it's just a point that a student and mentor can discuss, debate and learn together. That's part of the research and the beauty of it. Yeah, and the reason I even bring him up is that, frankly, in all of the different folks that I've heard Dr. White interact with, this individual, I think, I've been most disappointed with in his apologetic and his approach to a Catholic apologetic. And I mean, obviously I disagree with the Catholic perspective, but there are Catholic apologists that I think I... Well, I guess what I'm getting at is this refers to the work that you've done. This refers to what you've accomplished in that education, what you came away with. And I don't get the impression that this gentleman came away with, shall we say, as much as he claims he did. And I think that, you know, the Wisdom writer makes a lot of points about pride and about all kinds of different things about making sure that a man is who he says he is. Well, that a man shouldn't have to say who he is as much as he demonstrates who he is. And I think that's really what you guys are trying to get accomplished there at CES. Colin, I want to thank you for your call today, and I'm going to let you get going. Okay. Dr. Walston and I are going to go ahead and wrap up the program today, but I certainly appreciate your participation. Good to talk to you. All right. Take care and God bless. Bye-bye. Now, Dr. Walston, Lost my train of thought there. Tell me about, there are some specific things that if you have, if you will, the microphone to talk to folks and you want to tell them about what's going on at CES and what it's really all about, what kind of things would you tell them? Well, the first thing I would say is that CES is a flexible program. Rather than having prefab curricula in that, when a student enrolls, let's say, in a Master of Divinity program, we don't then say, okay, here are the X amount of classes that you have to take. because too often in traditional settings in schools, when a student enrolls in a certain program, whether it be masters, bachelors, or whatever, the students are told there are certain classes that you have to take, and quite often they're classes that have nothing whatsoever to do with the student's desired goals in education or ministry. In our program, the flexibility is that the student designs his own program, but not without the mentor obviously, The student just can't go off willy-nilly and pick various classes, but the student is going to design or pick the various classes that he wants to take that's going to help him reach both his educational and ministerial goals. So that's one of the biggest differences. And then the second thing is, once the classes are selected, we still don't say, OK, here's the books you have to read. Because we have so many people on our faculty from various perspectives that the student couldn't, you know, if a student that's, let's say, a Reformed Baptist may enroll, and if he's working with a mentor who's Assemblies of God, it wouldn't be right for the Assemblies of God to say, OK, here are all the texts you're going to read. So what happens even then is that the student, working with the mentor by the way, he selects his own mentor too. He selects his own mentor and then the mentor helps the student determine what books are going to best meet his need in his theological persuasion. So the point here, let me wrap this up, is that there's a great flexibility in the program. The student designs the curriculum with the mentor's oversight. And then this student works together with the mentor to design each class to determine what's going to be done for that class. And so the flexibility is really, really good in that aspect. and i uh... the other thing that strikes me about cds and the approach that you take it has to do with if you will the overhead of the school and uh... the kind of cost factor that uh... student faces incoming to your school right as opposed to going to a university right it strikes me that uh... i mean when we were as an organization looking at where james white was going to pursue that doctorate the amount of money that it would have taken to attend ASU just in tuition alone was enormous. And what strikes me is that the vast majority of people looking for Christian education who will eventually, like Colin, wind up in a pulpit, are not going to be making big dollars. Right. There are a lot of people could go off to a seminary and spend $60,000 through all the time that they spent there, the student loans and so on, to go out and get a pastoral job that pays them $24,000 a year. The reason why our tuition is lower is because we don't have a multi-mega library. We're not accredited, we don't have to pay those accredited prices. So we can pass on all that reduction to the students. Our undergraduate study program is $60 per credit hour. The master's is $70. The doctoral is only $85 per credit. Now, at a lot of accredited schools offering the same degrees, the credits are three, four, and five times that much. Wow, and I think that's a tremendous point for CES here. And, well, I'm actually running out of material here. We blew through that Novak stuff real quick. I do want to mention one more time, I want to talk about your book. And folks, I think the biggest value, and this is the major reason why Alpha and Omega Ministries has chosen to offer Dr. Walston's book, is that Folks come to our website looking for substance, number one. And as they look through the information that is there, as they look through the information that we offer, oftentimes a lot of them turn to us and say, you know, where should I get my education? I've just completed these degrees. I want to pursue this, et cetera. And they want to be able to, well, they're facing difficult decisions. And those decisions have to do with where they're going to go next and how they're going to attain that education that they're looking for, and how in the world are they going to afford it. Right. All those things come into that decision-making process. And what I found most refreshing about your book was it wasn't a showcase of CES. Oh, exactly. as much as what its point was is giving the student looking for the next place of where they're going to go. If they're going to get into distance learning, they're going to have some tangible ways in which to measure the school that they're talking to. Well, there's a couple things that are keynote of the book. Number one is I talk about how do you judge a non-accredited distance learning school. That's one. Number two, there's several chapters dedicated to the whole concept of accreditation. and global accreditation, if you were looking at schools outside the United States. And then the third thing, of course there's a lot more, but these are probably the three big things, is that I list over 200 schools that offer their programs through non-traditional methods, and I identify which ones are lying about their accreditation, which ones are accredited, and which ones are not accredited, but yet good schools. Yeah, excellent, excellent. Well, I tell you what, we're going to go ahead and wrap up the program today, and I just want you to know how much I've appreciated having you as my guest. And we're going to use this file, I think, to the edification of the body of Christ, and that's what it's all about. And we really appreciate your participation here on The Dividing Line. Thank you for having me. All right, and thank you. Go ahead. Let Dr. Walston go as I go ahead and wrap up the show here. And what's really important is that I actually pick the right clothes file. Folks, I want to thank you for listening to The Dividing Line. We're going to try to get Sean Hawn. on next week on the program. I don't know what his topic is going to be, but he is gearing up and hopefully can get a gentleman that we haven't seen in here for a while, and that's Mr. Mike Munoz in to assist him. And we look forward to next week's Dividing Line. If they can't make it, we're going to air a debate on homosexuality with Dr. James White that aired two weeks ago in New York. Thank you for listening in today, and God bless. The Dividing Line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries. If you'd like to contact us, call us at 602-973-4602, or write us at P.O. Box 37106, Phoenix, Arizona, 85069. You can also find us on the worldwide web at aomin.org, that's A-O-M-I-N.O-R-G, where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates, and tracks. Join us again next Saturday afternoon at 2 p.m. for The Dividing Line.