15. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Alpha and Omega Ministries presents the Dividing Line radio broadcast. The Apostle Peter commanded all Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence. Your host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, you can call now by dialing 602-274-1360. That's 602-274-1360. Or if you're out of the Metro Phoenix dialing area, it's 1-888-550-1360. That's 1-888-550-1360. And now, with today's topic, here's James White. Good afternoon, Phoenix. Welcome to the dividing line. Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Michael Munoz and I'm sitting in for Dr. White. I'm a board member with Alpha and Omega Ministries and in studio with me is Sean Han. Sean, how are you doing today? Very good. Glad to be here. I'm Sean's vice president of Alpha and Omega Ministries, and in the booth we have Rich Pierce, president of Alpha and Omega Ministries. How are you, Rich? I'm doing great today. And Rich just informed me that on hold already we have a caller, and it's Dr. White, so we're going to bring him on right up front before we even get to our topic. So, Dr. White, how are you? Hi, Mike. How's it going back there? Oh, it's going great. How's it going in Long Island, or as my friends say, Long Island? You having some coffee? That's actually not how they talk here, but that's okay. It's about 52 degrees here. It's been raining cats and dogs, but we're currently doing the conference here at Grace Reformed Baptist Church. Eighteen sessions over four days we're doing. Chris Arndt is trying to see if he can kill four apologists at one time. Right now, I just finished my first session, which was a review of the debate Thursday night with Robert and Janice, and this evening I do a session on the Apocrypha. Right now, Dr. Eric Spenson is skewering Roman Catholic epistemology and doing a very good job of it, and I just snuck out to give you all a call and let you know that the debate Thursday night went very, very well, unlike last year where, in essence, it was a a debate between one guy debating the map another guy debating eternal security uh... this year the debate was just on the doctrine of justification uh... missus and jenna uh... and i have stayed focused on that issue we didn't get into uh... personal matters and things like that and so it was uh... very useful um... i think the tapes will be very uh... helpful to people because the one thing i want everybody to see was the difference between a God-centered gospel and a man-centered gospel, and that's exactly what did take place. My opponent basically focused on saying that Romans 2.13 teaches that the doers of the law will be justified, and therefore there are those who can do the law. And on the fact that in Romans 4.7-8, Paul brings up David, and that David was justified as a process through his life, This is supportive of the Roman Catholic position, but he really made no attempt to respond to my presentation of the freeness of God's grace, the nature of grace, faith as a gift. Really didn't even attempt to address any of those issues at all. So I think there will be a lot of usefulness for this debate, much more than last year's. And the people that were there seemed to be very much blessed by it. Great, great. Before we came down to the studio, I noticed that your new book, The Potter's... Boy, I'm going to mess up on your hair. Potter's Freedom. Thank you. Comment on that for us. Yeah, it arrived here yesterday. It was supposed to be here for the debate, but the binder that the print shop was using broke, and they flew it apart from Germany. It was the wrong part. We missed the debate by one day, which is a little disappointing, but it's here. It looks wonderful. It's really exciting to see it. And so now let the games begin as this book starts getting out, dealing with this response to Norman Geisler on his book, Chosen but Free. And so hopefully they'll be arriving back there in Phoenix fairly quickly, and those people who have already ordered uh... the book so we'll be getting about the folks and uh... will do that by justice this is rich and i want to mention to you that you left a message for me this morning that they arrived for you all yesterday afternoon right they arrived for us yesterday morning Oh my goodness. That's amazing. So out of the, I believe, we've had over 180 pre-orders taken. We shipped almost 50 of those yesterday out, and the remainder should be shipped out between Monday and Tuesday. And we're really excited. And I have to say, I changed the website yesterday morning to show that we actually have it in stock now, and the phone hasn't stopped ringing off the wall. Well, that's incredible. That means that Calvary Press did arrange it so it would drop ship directly from the printer, and you got it, like I said, before we did, which is very exciting. But it's great to see that. The debate went very well. The conference is going great. We're going to have the conference tapes available through the website as well. That'll be 18 sessions with myself, Rob Zins, Eric Svensson, and Pastor David King. The sessions so far have been really wonderful. I'm really excited about that. And then, please, don't forget, it's not over with. Tuesday night, I'll be debating Paul Barber, a Church of Christ minister on the subject of election. And I'll tell everybody now, I think Paul Barber made a little bit of a mistake. He has requested that we be able to use some sort of presentation device, whether an overhead whiteboard or I just happen to have my digital projector with me. You'd think they would have learned from last year about that kind of stuff with you. So I'm almost done with a fairly full presentation on election in PowerPoint. I'm looking forward to being able to present that. So that'll be Tuesday evening out here. So it continues on, and I didn't want to take up all of y'all's time, but I just wanted to give you a report. The debate went very well. And I think God was truly glorified in the presentation of his gospel, and I think the fact that we present a gospel that's based upon done, what Christ has done, and that Rome continues to teach a gospel based upon do, do, do, was very clearly presented in the debate itself. Well, thank you very much for that report. OK, well, you guys do a good job now. I'm going to have to listen in later on, you know. Hey, before you go, Jim, there's just one thing that, you know, Mike and I as board members were discussing on the way down here, that it's our strong opinion that board members should receive a free copy of all of your books. And so we're going to have a call, a meeting when you get back and arrange some sort of a vote. Okay, well, when we do that, we'll start looking at all the giving records, too. How's that sound? Okay. Have a good day. Alrighty, it was nice talking to you. We'll talk to you later, guys. Okay, Jim. Well the topic that I want to address tonight actually is very much. Today Mike. Today. It's today. It's not tonight yet. It's twice now. I have to seek forgiveness for messing up the title of the book. It is The Potter's Freedom and it is available from Alpha and Omega Ministries and you can get on that website at almin.org and you can order that. But today's topic, this afternoon's topic, is a topic that we actually did about a month and a half ago. Myself and at the time board member Benny Diaz was in studio and we began to address the issue of the law of God and how does the believer understand, apply, interact with the law gospel debate? What do I mean by law of God? How does that work in the life of the believer? And for some of you listening, you might think that, well, Mike, that's kind of an odd topic to do on an apologetics show. It's actually an intermural debate amongst Christians. You know, Christians will argue back and forth the place of the law, but you know, how does it fit in apologetically? Well, I think it fits in at least two ways. First of all, the great apologist, Cornelius Van Til, used to speak of theology and apologetics as actually two sides of the same coin. In a sense, theology is presenting the truth of God to the church. Apologetics, in many aspects, in many ways, is presenting the truth of God to the unbeliever. in evangelizing the unbeliever. So I think really any topic, any theological topic is important to the apologist because we need a consistent worldview that we present to the unbeliever. But in addition to that I think it's very important because of the topic of justification by faith. And I want to make it very clear, and I know Sean and Rich would wholeheartedly agree with this, when we speak of the law of God and when we speak of its application to the life of the believer, we in no way whatsoever even want to imply, hint, make you think that we're speaking of it in terms of a means or an instrument to justification. Justification is by faith alone, by grace alone. And it is, as Jim put it, and as he does so well defending it in The Potter's Freedom, justification is a work of God from start to finish. By faith, through faith, it is a work of God. It is the result of the finished and accomplished work of Jesus Christ. But, when we deal with many of the different cults, when the missionary comes to your door and knocks on the door, often, like last week on the radio show, the topic of James chapter 2, faith without works is dead. Just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. So, how the law fits into the Christian life, how the law fits into the doctrine of justification is certainly pertinent to Alpha Omega Ministries. It is certainly pertinent when we engage in conversation with the Mormon or the Jehovah Witness or the Catholic for that matter as Jim made quite clear when he spoke to us. I want to read a quote and it comes from a book called, um, Five Views on the Law and Gospel. It's published by Zondervan, and it's part of what's called the Counterpoint Series. And this takes, this is, again, uh, intramural debate, and these are Christian men, scholars, that come together, and they present differing views on the topic that they're writing about. And I wanted to quote from Wayne Strickland, because I think he really nails why this is important. And he writes in this book, The resolution of the law gospel debate is no simple exercise, but neither is it a trivial issue. Among the theological issues raised by Paul, this one has perpetually been regarded as one of great significance. Theologically the issue is important is threefold. First, one's view of the relationship between law and gospel may influence the understanding of the cardinal doctrine of justification. Justification by faith is not contradicted by what we're going to present today on the law of God. But let me return to the quote. Second, the understanding of the relationship may have a decided impact on sanctification. The understanding of the relationship may have a decided impact on sanctification. Does the law have any role in the contemporary believer's lifestyle? Third, on a broader and more all-encompassing level, the issue has great significance for one's theological system. The differing solutions of the law gospel debate result in diverse theological systems. And I think he nailed it there as far as its threefold significance. So what we want to do today is we want to briefly visit what we did about a month and a half ago and we want to recap some things that we had covered the first time out. And then we want to move on and deal, especially in the next half hour, we want to specifically deal with what John Calvin in the Institutes of the Christian Religion, what he referred to as the primary use of the law. And that is the use of the law as a guide, not a means, but a guide to righteous, sanctified living. A guide to how can I live my life in a way that exhibits gratitude for the completed, finished work of Jesus Christ. And to begin with, Sean, you and I were talking just the other day on how do we define law of God? What do we mean when we speak of law of God? Can you comment on that? Sure, it's a good question. Many Christians might have a different answer for it, but in its simplest form, what is the law of God? It is the reflection of the moral character of the God that we serve. It's His holy image. Ultimately, whenever we look to our Bibles, God's law is comprised of all of the exhortations, I would say. All of the exhortations from cover to cover would be considered as God's law. We could talk about, we could call it the commandments, or we could say it's the revealed will of God. And if you wanted to summarize all of those commandments that we find in the Bible, all of those exhortations, we could say that it would be summarized in the two great commandments in Matthew 22, 37 through 40, which is ultimately love for God and love for your fellow man. If you want to say, if you ask the question, what does that mean? Take me a little deeper than that. A great exposition of what it means to love God and to love man is found in the Ten Commandments. So there you have both aspects exegeted if you will. And then you might. I just want to make a quick comment on that. I think it is really important because unfortunately it seems to be a popular opinion today in the church that we want to separate love command and I once heard a really good illustration of that and that is and I'm speaking to you guys and I apologize for you ladies out there but as far as we guys are concerned and we need a lot of instruction in this area but go home and love your wife. and don't ask her for any instruction and see how good a job you do. It's pretty near impossible and it certainly wouldn't be living with her in an understanding way. So I think, I really want to stress that love and the law, there's not a wall between them, but the law is an expression of love. Love is living out the law in daily life. So go ahead and pick up where I cut you off. Yeah, I would agree that we need not pit love and duty, the duty and our obligation to obey against one another. I think that's excellent. But to the fullness, if you were to further expound on the Ten Commandments and if we were to learn and look and understand the true inward and the spiritual character of the Ten Commandments, it would be best understood and applied by looking to our Lord Jesus Christ and looking to his apostles for their instruction. And we could go into verses in Matthew 5 where we see that looking upon a woman is the same as committing adultery or being angry with my brother is murder. And so it's really the whole Bible from cover to cover. But in its simplest form we would say love to God and love for man, which is a summary of the Ten Commandments, which is a summary of everything else that we find in the Bible. And we could go anywhere and find out what it is that God is after in our obedience and it is indeed our heart. Absolutely thank you for that. I wanted to narrow the topic down just a little more though today so that we're not all over the pages of scripture going from this command to the next. And what I would like to limit our topic to is what in the history of reformed thinking has been referred to as the moral law of God. And the moral law of God again in the history of reformed thinking it's in the Westminster Confession of Faith, it's in the 1689 Baptist London Confession of Faith. The moral law of God is usually understood to refer to the Ten Commandments because it is a summary found in the Ten Words, a summary of all of God's moral injunctions. You can literally, a proper exposition of the Ten Commandments and you're going to find all of God's moral precepts within those principal ten items that God revealed on Mount Sinai. Real quickly, the last time that we discussed this, our thesis, or the topic of the show, was that the Ten Commandments are still binding upon the New Testament believer. The Ten Commandments revealed on Sinai by Jehovah God to the Prophet Moses are still binding upon the believer in Jesus Christ, upon the New Covenant believer, because, well actually for a variety of reasons, but let me define what I mean by binding because this actually, Sean, caused a great deal more debate amongst some of the Reformed people that I hang out with than I thought it would. But what I mean by binding is at least three things. First of all, the law of God is to be obeyed. The Ten Commandments are to be obeyed. They're not optional. One of my Southern Baptist brothers, he's actually a pastor, once said to me that he had preached a sermon, a series on the Ten Commandments, and he made clear to his congregation that they are in fact Ten Commandments and not Ten Suggestions. They are to be obeyed. They're binding in the sense that they are to be obeyed. They are binding, and this is what really caused some controversy, and that is they are binding in the sense that we will answer for disobeying these commandments. We will stand before the judgment seat of Christ and we will give an account for obedience or disobedience to these commandments. Let me give you some scripture references for that. In Matthew chapter 12, verse 36, Jesus is speaking. He says, Now if we paid attention to the context there, it's very important to understand that Jesus is speaking to those who would follow him. Jesus is speaking to those who would be his disciples. And he says to those would-be disciples that Every careless word we will give an account to our Lord, to our God, when we stand before Him. In Romans 14.10, Paul writes, but you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. And another verse would be 2 Corinthians 5.10, and again Paul is writing, he says, And I think it's really important to understand a little bit of the underlying Greek there. Literally what this passage says is we will be made manifest. before the judgment seat of Christ. That means that when we stand before God, all of our life, all of our works, both good and bad, both righteous deeds done in Christ, both unrighteous deeds done in the flesh, all of that will be made manifest at that time before the judgment seat of Christ. And what I would want to stress on this particular issue is that it's not a judgment of condemnation, but it is a judgment that will ultimately glorify Jesus Christ. Because all those sins that we've committed that will be made manifest before Christ, Christ will come down off of his throne and basically he will be the Lamb of God who is paid the full price the full penalty for those sins and he will be glorified we will cast our crowns at his feet and it will be a time when Jesus Christ will be glorified as the King of Kings the Lord of Lords the Savior of his people. Thirdly as far as what I mean by the law is still binding is that the law Thirdly is that it is a guide to a sanctified life a guide to righteous living Did you have any comment Sean that you wanted to make on that? Well, I just You know, it's it is it is somewhat controversial many many of our Christian friends believers would say that that we don't have the duty, we're not under the obligation to obey the law of God. And I would assert that because, just simply because from the fact that God is the infinitely great, majestic and sovereign king of the universe, that it is the duty of all men here on earth as his creatures, and especially us as his children, as believers, to love him supremely and to obey him in everything that we say and that we do and to seek his glory above all else. Ultimately, a passage comes to mind is 1 Corinthians 6.20 says, And another one that comes often through the New Testament and the Old Testament, 1 Peter 1.16, quoting out of the Old Testament, And there's the obligation. We are called to imitate Him and to reflect His image. And we see His image clearly revealed in His revealed will, right? We are the image bearers of God and we're commanded to imitate Him and to follow Him and to do the things that He does and to like the things that He likes and to desire the things that our God desires, right? And so where do we find out what our character What the character of God is like, right? Where do we find instructions in the framework for a life patterned after holiness, right? It's in the Word of God, of course, and specifically, I would argue, in His law. In His law, absolutely. And I think the Apostle John says the same thing in a very helpful epistle. In the first epistle that he wrote, in chapter 2, verse 3, he says, By this we know that we have come to know Him. We have a relationship with God if we keep his commandments. The one who says I have come to know him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps his word in him the love of God has been truly perfected. For by this we know that we are in him. The one who says he abides in him ought himself to walk in the same manner as he walked." The other thing that I wanted to recap is I wanted to provide at least six reasons why I believe the law of God, the Ten Commandments specifically, are still binding upon the New Testament believer. First reason why the Ten Commandments are still in effect, still binding, is that, and Sean has said this, they reflect the character of God. They reflect the character of God. A multitude of verses you could turn to. Psalm 25, verses 8 through 10. Psalm 111, 7. Romans, chapter 7, verses 12 and 14, and you'll see that the law is holy, the law is good, the law is righteous, the law is just. It literally reflects the character, the attributes of God. The second reason why the law of God, the Ten Commandments, is still binding is that they are written upon the hearts of New Covenant believers. Jeremiah 31 verse 33 says that in the New Covenant God will write His laws upon our hearts. And for those of you that are out there that have done some work in this area, I don't mean by that that I'm contradicting what Paul says in Romans chapter 2. Paul says that by nature, by virtue of our creation, the things of God's law are written upon our hearts. The difference between that writing of God's law on our hearts and the writing of God's law upon our hearts that Jeremiah speaks of is that one condemns us Romans chapter 2 because we're lawbreakers the other is written in such a way that we now love the law of God we now seek to obey it out of gratitude and love for our Heavenly Father The third reason why the law of God is still binding upon New Covenant believers is that they are identical, and I just touched on this, but they are identical with the law written on the heart of all men. Romans chapter 1, verses 18 to especially 32. Romans chapter 2, verses 14 to 15. They thus condemn man as a lawbreaker. That which condemns us. That for which Christ had to die for. written on our hearts are identical to the law revealed at Sinai. Third reason, and this takes a little bit of work, I'll give you some verses for it, but the law of God was understood and obeyed prior to its revelation at Sinai. If you do some work in the early chapters of Genesis, in the early chapters of Exodus, for instance, Genesis 26, 5, Exodus chapter 16, and just a whole lot of other verses we could lay out on the table, you'll see that the people understood the same principles of morality, the same principles of reflecting God's character as revealed on Sinai, for instance in the life of Joseph. Why did Joseph know that it would have been sinful to have entered into a relationship with Potiphar's wife? Well, because it was the law of God written on his heart, the same law that's revealed on Mount Sinai. The fifth reason that the Law of God is still binding is that the Law of God defines sin. It not only defines sin for the unbeliever. It is one of the greatest tools to refer and to have an understanding of the Law of God when you're sharing your faith because it condemns all men. You start sharing the different ideas and meanings that are implied in the Law of God to the unbeliever And, you know, eventually, if the Holy Spirit is working in his heart, if the Holy Spirit is drawing him to the Father, the Father is drawing him to himself, he's going to have to cry, Uncle, he's going to have to concede, yes, I am a miserable sinner. The law of God reveals sin. And the sixth and the final reason that we'll deal with today, why the law of God is still binding, is that in the justification of believers, Jesus perfectly obeyed this law and paid the price for our transgressing this law. In order for Christ to be the perfect sacrifice, the sacrifice that would be perfectly acceptable and propitiatory to the wrath of God the Father, Jesus had to perfectly obey that law. Thus, getting back to the doctrine of justification, His perfect righteousness could be imputed to our account. And when God looks at us, He sees us as standing in Christ. He sees the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ laid to our account. And that perfect righteousness was due to a perfect obedience to the law of God. And we're going to go to a short break and we'll be back and pick up on our topic of the law of God and how it applies to the believer. And we're back on The Dividing Line today. My name is Rich Pearson. Got Mike Munoz here with us and Sean Hahn talking about the law and its role today. And just want to let you know it's 1-888-550-1360. We'd like to hear from you today and also 274, that's 602-274-1360. And I just want to make a quick observation here that folks I talked to you last week and mentioned that we were hoping to have the Potter's Freedom and at the top of the hour I mentioned to James that in fact we did receive those yesterday and I just want to let you know that if you want to get your copy of the Potter's Freedom and you haven't ordered that yet you can do so by going to our website right now you can get it online at AOMIN.org, AOMIN.org, and the excitement over this book is just swelling like crazy. I am just amazed at how many copies of this that we have pre, that have been preordered, and we're trying to get caught up and get all of those in the mail as quickly as we can. as well as the fact that like I said yesterday once it hit the website that that the book is now in stock the phone just hasn't stopped ringing so this is an exciting book it is exciting for our ministry it is it frankly in my opinion it is a time that folks who really are struggling with the issues of Calvinism Arminianism and the differences between the two and the The vague and gray areas that so many people so many preachers these days at least in this century have tried to paint between the two. When really and truly the two systems are very different. If you want to understand the difference between these two systems and understand what it is that Calvinists really believe in what reformed theology really is. Get the potter's freedom Mike back to you. Thank you rich. Let me read one more quote from a book entitled the law and gospel Few subjects compare importance with law and gospel It is the hub from which all other biblical doctrines extend to be unclear in either law or gospel is to be spiritually Paralyzed to confuse the relationship between the two is to fall into serious crippling air All of the Bible is either law or gospel God, man, sin, Christ, redemption, grace, guilt, judgment, atonement, forgiveness, and holiness are all revealed to us in the scriptures in terms of law and gospel. The Christian who neglects the study of the subject, therefore, does so to his own spiritual detriment. The failure to teach God's law in our churches has had devastating consequences. Not only is gross sin being flaunted in the public square, but also the moral conduct of our church children has degenerated to alarming proportions. Sad to say, this is definitely an important and a serious topic. Let me give you those phone numbers again. Rich goes through them pretty fast and we'd like to hear from you. and discuss this topic. If you're calling locally, it's area code 602-274-1360. That's 602-274-1360. If you're calling outside of Phoenix, you can get us at 1-888-4234. Again that's 1-888-550-1360. And again today our topic is the law of God and how it works in the life of the believer. And what we did is we put forth our thesis and that is that the law of God is still binding, the Ten Commandments are still binding upon the New Testament, the New Covenant believer. We defined what we meant by that. I gave you some reasons why I believe scripture teaches that it's binding. And Sean, when we went to the break, you had an excellent point, and I wanted you to go ahead and make that on the air. Yeah and one thing I do want to mention too Mike and I you know the problem with a radio show like this is it's it seems short time goes by very fast and there's a lot of material that we have laying in front of us that we'd like to get through but we probably won't and one of the things that I did want to mention first is that it's important that is if we're going to use the law and teach the law in our churches that we that we do so properly and in other words we we can teach law in such a way that we're doing it wrong. There's a right way and there's a wrong way to teach law in our churches. So hopefully we'll be able to get to that. We're not just emphasizing law. We're trying to emphasize using the law correctly. But one of the difficulties that seems to cause people problems with law is statements that you find in the Bible that would say something like, we're not under the law. But we're under grace. And I'm thinking of a comment that the Apostle Paul makes in Romans 6 and chapter 14. He says, for you are not under law but under grace. And it is these kinds of statements that we see in our Bibles that cause people to shrink back from the law and to say, yeah, but that doesn't apply to me because I'm not under the law. But what is it that Paul, especially in Romans chapter 6, is dealing with? If we remember in that context, the preceding three chapters, Paul is dealing with justification. In Romans 6 he is refuting the idea that a free justification promotes sin, that grace might abound. He is asserting that a free justification guarantees something. It guarantees a new life of righteousness for the believer. The result, we're not under the law in a sense that we need to obey the law for our justification. That's what we've talked about briefly here in the introduction, but we're under the law. There's a sense in which we are under the law as a rule of life. The law then is the Christian's rule of life and the believer, along with the Apostle Paul, discovers that he, by the grace of God, the believer discovers that he delights in the law of God. After the inward man, right? Romans 7, 22. The law to the believer is not a boogeyman. It's good, it's holy, it's just, and it is the reflection of his God. And he doesn't make, like the psalmist, he does not make a distinction between the law of God and the lawgiver. He sees the two together. And so he loves the law of God, and he wants to please his God, and he respects his God. And out of his heart, filled with gratitude, he wants to serve his God. Absolutely and you know we could sum up the discussion today that we are talking about love for God. We are talking about love for God and then the outpouring or the overflow of that love for God love for one's neighbor. You know Mike I was wondering in just what Sean was saying just right now you talk about the love for God and serving God etc. Where does and I hear this preached I think in my opinion preached around a lot but never directly at it. Where does the fear of God fit into this? You know the Proverbs talk about that the fool has no fear of God. Where does this plug in? How does fear mean fear? I think that is the one thing that always sticks in my craw when I hear preachers preach on fearing God. Suddenly fear is getting redefined and I think watered down. What are you guys thinking on that? I think you make a great point and in fact fear in the Hebrew and I'm drawing a blank on exactly what word is used in the Hebrew but I have done a word study on that and literally the term that's used not just in the Proverbs and the Psalms but in a passage that I'm going to read from you in Deuteronomy 6. Literally the word means terror. to be in awe, to be afraid, to be scared. And I think at times, as Christians, we overemphasize the idea that's also contained in that term, and that is one of utmost respect, one of honor, because certainly we can approach, because of the finished work of Christ, we can approach God. The writer of the Hebrews talks about that. We have free access to the throne of God. But we can't lose sight of the fact that there's also a sense in which we are to view God as who He is, God, as Jehovah Elohim, the Lord Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth. And probably the best illustration that I have, unfortunately again it's kind of geared toward men, But, for those of you that have a healthy, good relationship with your earthly fathers, I think the fear of the Lord is very much, very similar. You can make an analogy. It obviously breaks down at a certain point, but you can make the analogy. Growing up, I had a wonderful, a great father. He gave direction, but he had a firm hand. He loved me, but he would discipline me and bring me back under his rightful authority. I loved my father and I wasn't afraid of my father I wasn't scared that he was going to beat up on me or somehow abuse me but at the same time I did not mess with my father I knew that if I crossed the line dad would quickly justly put me back into place and I think that's involved in the idea of fearing God and what's interesting in the book of Deuteronomy The law of God Deuteronomy meaning second law. I think Moses is very upfront in the first chapter He talks about he's basically Expositing the law of God. He's he's giving it a second time with some homiletical insight into the law of God and And in Deuteronomy chapter 5 the Ten Commandments are recapped. But prior to that you have chapter 4. And chapter 4 relates the law back to a heart issue. Back to love for God. And that this law needs to be written upon your hearts. And then in chapter 6 after Moses recounts the Ten Commandments he does the same thing. In Deuteronomy chapter 6 verse 1. Moses writes now this is the commandment the statutes and the judgments which the Lord your God has commanded me to teach you that you might do them in the land where you going over to possess it so that you and your sons and here it comes rich so that you and your son and your grandson might fear the Lord your God to keep all his statutes and his commandments which I command you all the days of your life and that your days may be prolonged Oh Israel You should listen and be careful to do it, that it may be well with you, and that you may multiply greatly, just as the Lord, the God of your fathers, has promised you, in a land flowing with milk and honey. Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might. These words, which I am commanding today, shall be your heart." So in essence you use the analogy with your father. This is the scenario where you can let's say as a young child your sin nature becomes very evident and you suddenly get into a mode of rebellion and you start being disobedient. He is going to discipline you and there is a level of fear there that you know you are going to get disciplined if you cross this line but on the other side of the coin this is the father who, when it came to be bedtime, you could crawl up into his lap and he would wrap his arms around you and it's Abba, Father. Absolutely, and we're going to take another quick break. We're looking forward to your telephone calls and talking with you, talking about the law of God, and we will be back shortly. Welcome back to the dividing line again. My name is Mike Munoz sitting in studio for dr James White in studio with me is Rich Pierce and Sean Han and we're talking about the law of God. We'd love to hear way here and that is that in our discussion of the law of God we've kind of segue into the idea or the concept of heart obedience and Sean you were you made some some really good points about that so what why don't you pick up on that and yeah I would I would want to assert as we go through this together that proper gospel obedience is not just a matter of of not doing certain things And it's not just a matter of our hands and our feet and our mouths, right, by themselves. It includes those things for sure, obviously, when we obey the law of God, all of those things are engaged. But it's not just those, but real gospel obedience, authentic God-glorifying law-keeping engages and it flows out of the heart of the individual. And as a matter of fact, the single most important aspect for proper obedience is this heart of ours that is filled with and it's motivated by thanksgiving, gratitude, and love to our God. And you see, without these things, you and I are mere moralists and legalists and Pharisees. See, all of these people like the law. They obey it externally. But, however, we must work at keeping our heart. As Proverbs 4, 23 says, Watch over your heart with all diligence, for from it flow the issues of life. And a book that is very good on the law and the gospel, we've quoted it once before, is written by Ernest C. Reisinger by Presbyterian Reform Publishing. He says that the commandments demand both external and internal obedience. addressing the will and the heart as well as actions. They require more than merely outward conformity. They also require inward affection. The commandments forbid not only evil acts but evil desires and inclinations. You see, he says, they go to the mind, including the will and the affections, thereby calling for obedience from the whole man. And isn't that the idea, Mike, when we read in our Old Testament and we see the heart emphasized? I plugged in the word heart this week in my computer and I got 619 hits throughout the whole Bible and I just started going through these things. I crossed it over into my word processor and I have like 60 some odd pages of quotations from the entire Bible about the heart and I've been going through them. But the Old Testament is filled with this emphasis on the heart. And what does it mean when it's talking about the heart in the Old Testament? Let me just ask you that. I think it's important in the Hebrew mindset, and this certainly carries over into the New Testament also, the idea of heart in the 21st century American thought is emotions. And certainly, depending on the context, the idea, the concept of emotion, love, certainly love the Lord your God with all your heart is there. But in the Hebrew worldview, in the Hebrew way of thinking, the word heart more often than not, had to do with one's thinking. And it was with our thinking, it was with our commitments, it was with that which was most important. That's the relationship that we had with the law because that was a way to honor and love God, was with the heart, with the whole of man. But you know what, Sean? We've got a caller, Denise from Phoenix. Denise, welcome to the Dividing Line. Dennis, I am so sorry. Boy, am I hurting. I need a bigger computer screen. Or some glasses. Dennis, welcome to the Dividing Line. Thank you. Looking at the Ten Commandments, I was wondering what you thought of the Sabbath. I was looking at Colossians 2, 16 and 17. I'm sure you're familiar. And you wanted my view of the Sabbath, or were you going to offer yours? Well, I'm not Sabbatarian. Okay. I think in the history of Reformed thought, in the history of Reformed thought, I think that, and some of my more Sabbatarian friends may disagree with me, but I think that there are at least three valid ideas or views concerning the Sabbath. Myself, I've been labeled a Sabbatarian Light by a very close friend because I am a Sabbatarian. I believe that the Sabbath is the Lord's Day, but I don't necessarily believe in regulating it by black and white, do this, do that, don't do that. I think it should be regulated by principles and I think that's one valid view. of how the fourth commandment is still binding today. The second view is one in seven, where it really doesn't matter what day the Sabbath is on, but it's one in seven, and then we would certainly treat that one much the way that we treat the Lord's Day or Sunday. And then the third view, and some might want to debate this, but as I understand it, I think this is closest to Calvin's view, and that is that the Sabbath has now become an everyday issue. We celebrate and honor the Sabbath Every day as we put our faith in Jesus Christ as we have entered that rest And we worship and serve the Lord on a daily basis Sean did you I was going to mention it that that third view that you just laid out Dennis is called the continental reformer view typically by most people the Older the reformers the original reformers most of them as a held to this it's argued and and Does that help at all, Dennis? Yeah, sure. I think the aspect of the most efficient work week being a six-day week with the same day off every week still holds just as a practical side of things. Certainly, if one could, Sunday would be the best day of rest, I would think, just because we want to go to church and be mindful. Absolutely. Absolutely. The only thing that I would add is, and I'm certainly not accusing you of this, but as Christians, we certainly want to attempt to be biblical and not necessarily pragmatic. Well, I'm saying there's that side to it, though. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I appreciate your call, Dennis. Call us back again. Sean, before we run out of time here, the one thing that I would like to talk about, and it's something that I mentioned early on in the hour, are the uses of the Law of God. Historically, in Reform thinking, there has been three uses for the Law of God, and they've been labeled by different things. I'm going to give you one of the more common labels, and then I'm going to try to explain them very briefly. There's the civil use of the Law of God. There's the evangelical use of the law of God and then there's what's called the didactic or teaching use of the law of God. Now the civil use of the law of God simply says that the law of God reveals the character of God and the sinfulness of man thus condemning and destroying us. The church, the civil magistrate, God himself, uses the law of God in condemning and revealing sin, not only to drive us to the need of the Savior, which is actually the second use of the law, but to regulate and to hold back evil in society. That is a method by which God holds down or holds back the evil in society, and that's why often many of the reformers refer to it as the civil use. The second use of the law that being the evangelical use, is that the law restrains sin and leads the sinner to Christ. No one is going to turn to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. No one will accept Christ as Savior if he is not first of all convinced that he needs a Savior. And it's important as we share our faith, as we evangelize our lost friends and family members, It's important that we use the law of God as an instrument, as a tool, as Paul says in, I believe it's Galatians chapter 4, as a tutor, leading us to Christ. It's a tutor that will reveal our sin, show us to be helpless, show us to be condemned, show us to be damned, show us to need a Savior. And then finally, as I mentioned at the top of the hour, what Calvin calls the primary use of the law, and this is really what we've been talking about all day, Sean, and that is the didactic or the teaching use of the law. And that is, the law is a guide, and this is very important, it is a guide, not a means. It is a guide to righteous living, a guide to righteousness and sanctification for the believer. And I think there are so many verses of scripture that bring this to light. For instance, Psalm chapter one, the first two verses, and this is one of my favorites, how blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked? nor stand in the path of sinners nor sit in the seat of scoffers but his delight his love his delight is in the law of the Lord and in his law he meditates day and night. Psalm chapter 19 verse 7 the law of the Lord is perfect Restoring the soul the testimony the Lord is sure making wise the simple Psalm 119 has a lot to say about the law the law of God in verse 98 Your commandments make me wiser than my enemies for they are ever mine in verse 105 Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path Paul in the seventh chapter of Romans the twelfth verse says so then the law is holy and the commandment is holy and righteous and good and In the same chapter, chapter 7, verse 22, Paul says, for I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man. And that's really the point that we've been trying to make throughout this radio broadcast, is that the law of God does not in any way secure your justification before God. Sean, you pointed out the idea in Romans chapter 6, verse 14, for we are no longer under the law. Certainly the idea there is that we are no longer under the law in terms of a covenant of works. I think there's a little more to it. I think that we're also not under the law in the sense that we are no longer condemned by the law. We are no longer judged by the law. Jesus Christ took that condemnation upon himself at Calvary. He died thus fully satisfying and propitiating the law of God and thus The penalty, our sin, so to speak, was laid to his account. His perfect life of righteousness was laid to our account. Amen. And I would encourage our listeners to take their Bibles and read through Psalm 19 this afternoon or this evening. Read all of Psalm 19 and read Psalm 119 and there I think you will see the heart of a believer and his attitude toward proper obedience and obeying his God. But Mike, if I were to ask the question, I don't know how much time we have left. Rich, what are we looking at time-wise? We're actually right there at the time. We are right there. I want to thank you for joining us this afternoon. I want to close today's program with another quote, and this comes from an author by the name of R.B. Kuyper in his book, The Glorious Body of Christ. And interestingly enough, this quote comes from a chapter entitled, Preacher of Christian Gratitude. It may never be forgotten that the strictest obedience to the letter of the law, if it not be at once obedient to the spirit of the law, is actually disobedience. That is the way of saying that only he who is motivated by love for God in the keeping of God's commandments is keeping them at all. And that was the point of this afternoon. It is the result of love for God. It is the result of justification by faith, not the means of it. Thank you and have a great day. The Dividing Line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries. If you'd like to contact us, call us at 602-973-0318 or write us at P.O. Box 37106, Phoenix, Arizona 85069. You can also find us on the World Wide Web at aomin.org. That's A-O-M-I-N.O-R-G, where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates, and tracks. Join us again next Saturday afternoon at 2 p.m. for The Dividing Line.