Second Timothy 2 15 be diligent to present yourself approved to God a worker who does not need to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth Alpha and Omega ministries presents the dividing line radio broadcast The Apostle Peter commanded all Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence. Your host is Dr. James White, Director of Alpha and Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, you can call now by dialing 602-274-1360. That's 602-274-1360. Or if you're out of the Metro Phoenix dialing area, it's 1-888-550-1360. That's 1-888-550-1360. And now, with today's topic, here's James White. And good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Rich Pierce and I'm sitting in for Dr. White today. The Dividing Line is going to be hosted by myself today, with Simon Escobedo joining us today. How are you doing today, Simon? I am doing great. All right, as well as Mr. Michael Porter, and make sure all of our mics are on correctly here. I'm in here doing the engineering as well as kind of being the emcee of the show today and all of that. How you doing today, Mike? I'm doing pretty good, Rich. All right. Gentlemen, before we get started on our topic, and by the way, folks, Mike and Simon will be our teachers today. I found myself rather disturbed last evening as I was watching television. I know there's those of you who would say that was the thing that disturbs most people is to watch television, but the thing that disturbed me last night was I was watching a program called 2020 on ABC, and the thing I was very struck with was the story of a church in Dallas that I believe, ultimately, the story came down to the fact that they dared to evangelize. They dared to share their faith, and albeit I might disagree with their methods in some way, shape, or form, ultimately the thing that I found telling about this report last night was, as Barbara Walters was talking with the lady who did the story at the end of the show, she said, You know, many mainstream churches have come to the point where they've stopped trying to convert people of other religions. What's wrong with the Southern Baptists? Why haven't they stopped doing this? And I just found it absolutely shocking the way they portrayed the entire story, the way the whole thing unfolded, the approach that they took. They tried to put the worst, most evil twist on the church's methods and motivations that they could possibly put on it, I think, is where they were going. And ultimately I found it just amazing as Barbara Walters sat there with her eyebrow raised in judgment of the idea that Christians, Bible-believing Christians, would have the audacity as to try to believe that there's only one way to God and that the church, these Bible-believing Christians, would try to convert people to that understanding that would be so narrow. I wonder what the interviewer, as well as Ms. Walters, would think of Alpha and Omega Ministries and our techniques. I found that absolutely fascinating, and I know, Simon, you had an opportunity to view parts of the show as well. What were your thoughts? Well, I came in late in the evening, so I didn't get to see the entire interview, but I came in at the point where they were talking with the young boy, and I got a chance to at least gather some context. And like you said, Rich, it was disturbing to me as I sat there with my wife, and later I called my mom and we discussed it. at some of the methods that they did use, because I thought that tainted what was really a pretty good piece from the convention in demonstrating that indeed we as Christians hold to the exclusivity of the gospel. We do take Christ's words very seriously and literally, that He is the only way, truth, and life. And I felt like you did, that it was a soapbox for ABC News and for our culture in general to preach a message that has as its main motif tolerance. That is, let's embrace this inclusivism idea that there are many paths to God. In fact, as we were commenting on the way over here, one of the main folk that was outraged at what the convention had done, particularly with this little boy, was a Jewish rabbi. And I remember listening to him speak, and he had made the comment that we believe there are many paths to God. And as I mentioned to Mike Porter this morning, that is not consistent with Orthodox Judaism. And it's sad to see that there are so many who are buying into this toleration idea. And unfortunately, as you saw there at the end, Rich, When Barbara Walters finally asked the the lady about the Christians who take this these passages literally from the New Testament the lady responded by saying that there were some Christians who don't take it so literally and That do allow for this idea of many paths to God. It's a sad commentary I think on the church when we have left what is as you said the Great Commission the mandate to go out and Proclaim the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ to a lost and dying world Absolutely, and the thing that struck me is exactly that, that she sat there saying how many mainstream churches, as she put it, have abandoned this archaic idea, I think is what she was trying to get across. I can't exactly quote her, but that was the gist of where she was going. that uh... it was like a bc news was sitting in judgment of the christian church about these uh... these horrible methods that we use in and uh... the idea that we want people of other faiths to accepted jesus christ as the only the truth and the life and what struck me was I don't know how I would feel if I was a member and knew that I was a member of one of those other faiths that she was just talking about right now because I honestly believe that if I was, I would be embarrassed. Absolutely. I would be embarrassed and it made me think about an exchange, an email that I had a couple years ago with a gentleman who had been witnessing to a Roman Catholic friend and Well, the gentleman was a member of the Presbyterian Church USA, and the thing that I found so difficult in trying to correspond with him is that he sounded very orthodox. He didn't sound like he was aware of any of the bizarre things that PCUSA has gotten into. And his Roman Catholic friend had found the PCUSA.org website, and the endorsement of homosexuality, the endorsement of abortion, the activism that was there, the Roman Catholic went back to his friend and basically accused him of being a complete and total hypocrite. And the guy was emailing me, wanting to know, well, what do I do? What do I do now? And I told him, I said, I went and I looked at this website, and it was just absolutely shocking to me the things that this church officially was declaring. And I told him, I said, you've got basically two choices. Either your church, if your pastor doesn't agree with these things, breaks off, or you leave. But if you want to save face in here, if you want to have any credibility with this man whatsoever, you have to deal with what he has put at your feet. You really have to. And it just strikes me that these are the kinds of churches, these are the kinds of things and changes that have taken place within these churches that Barbara Walters was referring to. Right, and I like the closing comments of that one pastor in general, which pretty much summed it all up, and that is that we don't believe that there are many truths out there. We believe in one absolute truth, and we are bound by conviction and passion to that truth to declare that same truth to those who do not have that. And so, yeah, I think it was an interesting interview, and sadly it did provide ABC News and all of their cohorts an opportunity of once again trying what the devil has been trying for centuries to do, and that is to stamp out, to make extinct a church. But we are thankful that the Lord has promised to build this church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. Well, gentlemen, I think I'm going to have to make a brief comment. I think that a lot of churches are going to have to take what happened last night on the chin, because in all honesty, while their message, or they claim that their message is the gospel message, they claim that it's a salvationist message and so forth, their methods do leave a lot to be desired. And the very fact that There are people, the very people they're trying to reach, are looking back at them with disdain and hypocrisy and so forth. I think that that's something that we need to take into account. The fact is, you can deny it all you wish, but there is a message in the method that you choose. The very fact that when Christ came, when John the Baptist came, they came preaching repentance, and that was the message that they preached. That's the gospel, and they're sticking to it. Okay. Well, gentlemen, I understand that you've got a lesson for us today, a topic. Who's going to start it off? Well, I guess we can switch gears here. A few months ago, I think it was, we had, with Dr. White, begun a study on James Chapter 2. And I think that now we have that opportunity. By the way, I just would like to mention, I guess, Rich, Dr. White is in Long Island this week, is he not? Yes, as a matter of fact, I'm glad you mentioned that. I kind of forgot to bring that up in the intro, but he is, I believe that he is speaking at the Worldwide Church of God out on Long Island today. On the fundamental distinctives of the Christian faith, if I'm not mistaken. Yes, and so that's just an amazing thing. It is such a blessing to see. If you were involved back in the 80s with what was known then as Armstrongism and the Worldwide Church of God and Plain Truth Magazine, Herbert W. Armstrong had formulated such bizarre doctrines of God and so many different, unique doctrines that it was a very difficult organization to deal with. It just goes to show you that nobody is beyond the reach of the Lord. When he draws someone to himself, their eyes will be opened and they will be changed. I think that's appropriate for your topic today as well. Yes. Well, we certainly want to keep Dr. White in prayer. I know he's going to be speaking, if I'm not mistaken, 15 times in 10 days, among which one of those speaking sessions will be a debate against Roman Catholic apologist Robertson Janus on the doctrine of justification by faith. And that is our topic for this afternoon, I guess I should say. We had opened this discussion some time ago. And Mike, as you know, this is a passage that you have had opportunities to deal with extensively over the course of a few years. It is a passage that a lot of folk like to appeal to in their denial of Sola Fide, that is the doctrine that we are saved by faith and faith alone. In fact, when we were out at the pageant a few weeks ago, that is the Mesa pageant, this was a passage that consistently came up in our discussions on the nature of saving faith and Quite a few LDS folks say, well, what about James Chapter 2 and the emphasis there on works? I've had many a JW at my door, again, appeal to this passage in denying the sufficiency of grace and that we are saved by faith alone. And of course, Mike, you have had many a discussion on this issue with Roman Catholics via email, and so it's, I guess, an appropriate topic for us to discuss. Sola Fide is one of the major tenets of the Gospel. It was something that the reformers held on to. It was the central motif, if you will, of the Reformation. And it is something that is drawn on by many Protestant exegetes from Paul's writings in Romans, Paul's writing in Galatians, and in recent discussions. This has come up as a result of the ECT document that has been signed by some Protestants and some Catholics. And sadly, this has been an element of the gospel that I guess has been kind of shoved under the rug and as a result has stirred up some controversy even amongst Protestants that have caused them to come out with what they call the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals. And I guess they have produced a document called The Gospel of Jesus Christ, an Evangelical Celebration. And, Mike, in Article 11, it states this, of that document, which, by the way, is a document that is drafted by such men as R.C. Sproul, John Ankerberg, so forth, signed by a lot of notables, John MacArthur, D. James Kennedy, Wayne Grudem, and so forth. But it says this, we affirm that the biblical doctrine of justification by faith alone, in Christ alone, is essential to the gospel. We deny that any person can believe the biblical gospel and at the same time reject the apostolic teaching of justification by faith alone in Christ alone. We also deny that there is more than one gospel. Now, Mike, as we approach James chapter 2, if I'm not mistaken, it is the one passage in the New Testament, specifically verse 24, that actually does cite specifically the words, by faith alone, and yet On the surface, it doesn't seem to be in harmony with what we've just read here. Well, Simon, the problem that many people take with James Chapter 2 is they assume that the language that's used, and I can understand why, that the language that they used is similar to the language, or the same that Paul uses. And so they import, a lot of times, their interpretation of what Paul means, and come up with a very skewed perspective as far as what James Chapter 2 means. James Chapter 2 is not talking In terms of justification, it is not talking about justification before God. It's talking about justification before men. It's literally using the term dikayosune or dikayao in the force of vindication. We can look at that as we go along. But I can understand why people might be confused. There are certain passages that look very similar. I'm not going to deny that Faith Alone passage does cause some people to stumble. There are a lot of Christians, I've read many commentaries on it, that seem to tiptoe around certain issues rather than taking the text head-on. And as Christian believers, we really need to remember Sola Fide. We must take the Scriptures as the whole and not be afraid of them and go head-on into them. Now, why don't you guys give us an opportunity, why don't you read the passage there and let's get an idea of the flavor of the text itself. Just to get an idea for folks who aren't familiar with this passage and get a little bit of something we can chew on here to get an idea of how it flows. Yeah, verse 24 says that you see that a man is justified by works. And not by faith alone. And in fact, Mike, even Luther initially struggled with this text and with the book of James as a whole because it was difficult in his polemic against the Roman Catholic Church. Wow, so much for the infallibility of Luther. Yeah, as James would aptly point out. Now the question, Mike, obviously as we unfold this text, is are James and Paul rivals against one another, biblically drawing their swords against each other? Or are they allies, back-to-back to each other, facing different enemies? I think it would be safe to say that Paul is speaking of one particular aspect. Again, Paul is speaking of one aspect of faith and how faith applies and how faith achieves justification. And James is talking about the results of faith, and that is that faith do produce works. It's a change in nature, and very perfect and consistent and harmonious with what we believe with regards to regeneration, with regards to justification by faith, what faith is, what justification is, and what happens as a result of it. As we get a little bit into, by the way, Rich, we are going to be reading the passage just a little bit. We just had a little bit of an introduction that we wanted to give. And I'd appreciate that. Give us a break. Mike, why don't you go ahead and start reading from verse 14 and develop the thoughts for this afternoon. Okay, ladies and gentlemen, if you happen to have your Bible in front of you, we're in James chapter 2, beginning at verse 14. We'll be going through 26. James chapter 2 verse 14 begins with, What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith, but has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, Go in peace, be warmed, and be filled. And yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body. What use is that? Even so, faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, you have faith and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. The demons also believe in shudder. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works. As a result of the works, faith was perfected. And the scripture was fulfilled which says, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. And he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. Well, if you recall, and many of you may, I hope at least, remember where we led off last time was verse 17. We will be getting to verse 18 and following. I just wanted to recap because by now probably some of the rust has set in and a little bit of distance has been set between us now and the time we began this. But really briefly, to summarize what we discovered in the first four verses of this passage, James is not talking, in this context, he's not talking about a person who has faith. In verse 14, read what he says. If someone claims to have faith, literally if someone says he has faith, but has no works, can that faith save him? We discussed the fact that in the Greek there is a particular construction where the word faith, where it says, can that faith save him? The reason why it says that faith is because it is referring to the previous mention. Now remember, it is the previous mention of a claimed faith. James does not say someone has faith, but he has no works. It is, he says he has faith. We discussed that there was a similarity between this and the fact that in 1 John, John makes a very poignant example in the fact that someone claims, someone says that he knows God, but does not keep his commandments. John says that man is a liar. Well, in the same mind, James does not pull any punches in the same way. He makes it very explicit. He says that this person says he has faith. Can that faith save him? Now, in the Greek, the construction implies a negative answer. You're supposed to assume no, cannot. Then he gives another example, he says, if a brother or sister was without clothing or in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, go in peace, be warmed and be filled, and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? So you have in the beginning a claimed faith, a man who claims to have a faith, but he has no works. And then you have an example of exactly that. A person who says, go in peace. He says, be warmed. He says, be filled. Well, how? He didn't give them any food. So the statement, go in peace, becomes a mockery. It becomes an insult because he hasn't given them anything and yet they're supposed to be warmed and be filled? No, James is giving an insult here. You are claiming these things, but you haven't given him anything good. What use is that? And so that is the example that he gives, and of course he goes on in verse 17, and he says, even so, bringing this example, Faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. Now again, in verse 17, that word for faith has an article in front of it, and we discussed this before, that gives it a previous reference. It is a reference to that claimed faith. So that faith if it has no works, is dead. So that is the context in which we are dealing with, and it is quite striking that immediately we are not looking at a justification that is before God. we're not looking at a faith that is being expressed before god but before men something that we can see we are in the book of james being called to judge the actions of this individual this man who claims to have faith but has no works this man who claims to go in peace uh... be warmed in the field and yet does not give any food for the body and so is that that we are be calling recalled external justification external vindication excuse me if you will of this person's faith he claims to have faith but he has no works. And so the other thing that we pointed out is that there is a continuous action in all of these events. He continues to claim that he has faith, but he continues to have no works. Can that faith save him? Well that faith is dead. That's the point that James is making there. Now we move on to James chapter 2 verse 18. But someone may well say, you have faith and I have works. Show me your faith without the works and I will show you my faith by my works. Now this is a very interesting passage. I noticed that when I was looking up some various different explanations, apologetic works, Roman Catholic works, Mormon works, a lot of different explanations. very popular Roman Catholic apologist, completely left verse 18 out of his exegesis. In fact, it was very interesting, he was writing this entire passage, he was exegeting it, he was explaining it, and then he left it out, and here was his explanation. This verse, taken by itself, might give plausibility to, and of course he didn't say it, but he was meaning a Protestant view. Amazing. Now, what was amazing about that is the fact that he wasn't being interrupted. He didn't have anyone else talking. He didn't have anyone else jumping in and isolating the context. He had the context. He had control over the conversation because he was writing. And yet this verse seemed to cause him problems because I don't think there's any other way that you can explain it Other than to demonstrate, we are talking here not about justification, a forensic declaration by God of a person's righteousness. We are talking about vindication of a claimed faith. A person claims to have faith, he must prove that he has faith by his works. A demonstrative faith. A demonstrative faith. In fact, this is the reason why. If you look at the verse, he says, but someone may well say, you have faith and I have works, show me. The word there, daikonume, for show me, is very interesting because that is something that he's basically demanding proof. He is asking you to show him what your claim is. You claim to have faith without works, show me your faith. Can you possibly show me your faith by not doing anything? That's such as ridiculous, that's impossible to do, and that's the point that he's trying to make. Show me your faith without the works. In fact, Luke Timothy Johnson, a Roman Catholic scholar, makes a very interesting point about this, and he basically argues that what is being discussed here is, in fact, a demonstrative faith, a faith that is being done by example. It is not talking, in this context, about a justifying faith before God. And he makes it very clear by the use of Deikonume and so forth. So those are some of the things that are very interesting. Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. And if I didn't mention before, Luke Timothy Johnson is in fact a Roman Catholic scholar, a man who would have the opportunity and the reasons, the motive, and certainly the theological bias to interpret it in a way that it is more amiable for a Roman Catholic interpretation, but instead he sides very clearly with a very Protestant position. Now, I understand, of course, he's not going to agree with me on everything, and I'm not citing him as a Protestant source on everything. I just bring it out as intellectual honesty, and the very fact that what we are saying here is consistent with what even a Roman Catholic scholar can see. Then we go on to verse 19, and this really begins to, at this point, James begins to hone in his point with regards to your faith, true biblical faith, must in fact result in action. If it is true faith, something must occur. You believe that God is one. You do well, the demons also believe, and shudder. The frightening thing there is that this person, with the claimed faith but has no works, is being pitted against no less than the demons of hell. I don't know about you, Simon, but I personally would not want someone to sit there and say, hey, Mike, but guess what? Hey, Simon, guess what? The demons are doing better than you are. Right, right. Well, these folks are being discussed as holding to some level of orthodoxy. And we'd like to take up on that when we get back from the break. Well, there's a good timing on the break there. Here comes the music now. We'll be right back on The Dividing Line. And we're back on The Dividing Line today. My name is Rich Pierce. I am joined in studio today with Mike Porter and Simon Escobedo. And they're talking about James Chapter 2. And just go ahead and let them back in on it. But before we do, I just want to mention, hey folks, did you hear that Calvary Press spot? Well, I want you to know that we are expecting our first shipment to deliver at Alpha Omega Ministries of the Potter's Freedom this Friday. Now, if it's not this Friday, it'll be the following Monday. It all depends on the shipping companies, by the grace of God, and if we live, as the verse goes. But ultimately, those of you who have been eagerly anticipating the delivery of this book, that have gotten your pre-publication orders in. We are poised and ready to ship these out to you just as fast as we get our hands on them. And if you haven't had a chance to get your pre-publication order in, www.aomin.org, that's A-O-M-I-N dot O-R-G, and you can get your your copy of the potter's freedom by james white gentlemen go ahead well in light of that uh... shameless promotion of doctor white's work yes as uh... someone else likes to call it a shameless plug it and that's right uh... someone to have a true well i did interesting how i know i i can better appreciate what doctor white says we talked about that enemy on the wall as you're preparing to develop thoughts and that clock is racing against you but through discussing verse nineteen and the fact that james here draws on the fact that these folk here who have this claimed faith, and yet it's not a demonstrative faith, can even be orthodox. That is, here, as we read, they believe in the one God. There is an object of a particular type of belief that is not a saving belief. In fact, he embarrasses them, I would say, by drawing the contrast between them, well, actually not a contrast, but a parallel between them and the demons who also believe that they that there is only one god you know the demons are monotheist and yet notice what he says they're mike and you've captured this that they shutter the greek chrysostom the tremble uh... yeah i guess you would be basically be saying that they're one up on these uh... people who have a acclaimed faith but it doesn't demonstrate so you know that almost sounds like a uh... disney uh... yes it does chrysostom mufasa i love that greek term Well, and of course, that's one of the main points here is that James is giving examples that really do hammer the point. And that is that if you do not have a faith, well, your faith is useless. It's dead. And oh, by the way, it's no better than the demons. And that's pretty much an insult. Well, before we go on to the next verse, we do have a caller. We have Ron in Phoenix. He had a discussion on, he wanted to give a discussion on the branches and the fruit. And we'll take that call right now. Ron, are you on the air? Yes. How are you doing, sir? Good. What did you have to say? I enjoy this type of conversation. I think there's a lot of parallels that can be looked at for the works plus faith concept. Okay. The first one would be when Jesus talked about the branches and the fruit. If the branches don't produce fruit, they are gathered and burned. I think there's a comparison here because it's the Holy Spirit who works in us. and the fruit of righteousness, which goes along with faith, goes along with what Jesus commanded, love God, love your fellow man. And I think if the Holy Spirit causes us to do these works, they're not works of the flesh, they're works more of the Spirit, and those same works were prepared ahead of time that we should walk in them. In addition, I think it gets back to what's built upon the foundation of Christ, will last. So these are works that I don't think this type of work is something that we do in the mind. I think the Holy Spirit leads us to do these works because we're saved and it's Christ in us, the hope of glory. Well, I think I see what you're trying to say here. You're right. In a very real sense, the works that we would do will be burned up, and I think that's one of the points that Paul makes in 1 Corinthians. Our works are useless if they are in and of ourselves. But I think that the discussion that we're having here is the fact that there are people who do try to use this passage in a particular way. The point that we're trying to make is that the works that are done are as a result of the faith that is given to us by God. It is not the works that we do. So you were making the parallel that as the spirit that moves in us, that is the regeneration of the spirit, brings us to life, gives us spiritual life, and at that point then we are unable to be able to do any work at all. In other words, it is God working in us, not us working in and of ourselves. Exactly. It is God working in us. It's always about, if we think of Jesus inside, you know, He who has the Son has life. He who does not have the Son does not have life. We cannot overcome the flesh, and we can't do good works. It's only by the Lord Himself and the person of the Holy Spirit changing us, renewing us, allowing us to do these things. Well, Ron, thank you very much. Thank you. And, of course, the main thing there is to make sure that we understand that good works are the fruit of saving faith. They are not the root of saving faith. And, of course, as you know, Mike, Ephesians 2 89 sometimes quoted so often that verse 10 is completely left out. And there we read, For by grace are you saved through faith, that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast, For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Absolutely. And so we always need to remind ourselves that the purpose of our faith, and that's what the passage is talking about, the purpose of our being born again, the purpose of our being brought to life in Christ, is so that we would do good works. That is a result of the changed nature that we have. we have uh... jennifer in uh... tempe as our next caller jennifer hi how you doing hi jennifer how are you doing i guess now that we have a if this is the same jennifer and i assume it is that now we are have a face in our mind to whom we're talking yes okay and we got to have you speak up there jennifer it's uh... it's kind of hard to hear you over the air i just wanted to say that To me, faith is a belief, and I don't think good works don't produce faith, but faith in a certain belief system, such as the Lord Jesus Christ, produces works such as Christ healed the sick, the blind, the lame, the deaf, and he raised the dead. And that's kind of like the works that are produced by faith. So are you recording with the works that are produced by faith more in line with miracles or just simply anything that is supernatural even in fact are doing good works in the first place since we are such sinful people? Like the miracles. Alright, well thank you Jennifer. And yeah, I think I can understand where that's coming from. Really there are a number of passages where it does talk about without faith you cannot please God without faith. You cannot do anything. By faith you'll move mountains. There are many passages where Christ speaks of by their faith they are healed. The woman who had the hemorrhaging for 12 years, she was healed by her faith. But, of course, in the context that we're dealing with here, it is specifically in regards to good deeds, works of righteousness, if you will, that is a result of the faith of the person who already has. And that's what we're talking about with James 2. In fact, going right into James 2, verse 20, We begin to, I believe, have the hammer begin to become slammed down, if it hasn't already been done already by James, have the hammer come down on us again with regards to this argument. In James 2, verse 20, we begin with, But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless and of course remind remember always the context always the context we have a discussion of the demons before who have the same amount of faith that you do and are shuddering you have the example of the person who who says go in peace and yet does nothing for uh... what is necessary for these people body And you have this claimed faith, but it has no works. So in that context, we have a person who says, your faith without works is useless. And remember, the context is we have a previous reference. That faith. What faith? Verse 14. Can that faith save him? What faith? The claimed faith. If someone says he has faith. So in other words, this person the person who is identified as someone, this person is being, in a sense, in a trial. And we are called to judge him. And all these examples are being brought up against him, and we are called to judge, can that faith save him? That is the indictment that is being laid against this gentleman. And so what does he do? He cites one of the greatest men of faith that you can possibly imagine, and that is Abraham. Verse 21, was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? Now, that verse is going to cause some people some trouble because it has, was he justified by works? Well, let's take a look at that verse there real quick. If you would turn with me to Romans chapter 4, verse 2. Romans chapter 4 verse 2. You see an interesting discussion on this. There we are. Romans chapter 4 verse 2. For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. Now I have had this verse thrown to me, these two verses thrown to me, with the assumption that there is a contradiction between James and Paul. someone tried to argue that there is a contradictory contradiction in the scripture and here it is right there That goes on the assumption, of course, that what is being discussed about in terms of justification in James Chapter 2 is the exact same thing that is being discussed in Romans Chapter 4. In Romans Chapter 4 there is a very clear context that is being discussed, and that is, of course, justification before God. It is a forensic one-time declaration by God that declares a sinner righteous. But that is not what is being discussed in James Chapter 2. In James Chapter 2 we have Well, we're going to have to come back in just a moment with the rest of that live content right in the middle. It's 602-274-1360 or 1-888-550-1360 and we'll be right back with the last of the dividers. Boy, I tell you, you know, Dr. White sits behind this microphone and he sure makes it sound easy. But I tell you something, you get behind this microphone and there are times when you kind of go, wow, this is a lot harder than it sounds. That's for sure. Well, thank you very much there, Rich. I appreciate that. And we've got Mike, and he's sitting here. He's frozen right in the middle of that word that he was just about to enunciate when the music came up. And we're going to let, we're going to turn the on switch, hit the play button. We had him on pause there for a second. We're going to hit the play button and let him pick up right where he left off. I think one of the nicest things about heaven will be that there'll be no clocks there, Michael. Well, that'll be nice. Well, I think the point that I was trying to make here is that who is being cited and called into evidence here is the great father Abraham. Abraham, our father, is justified by works. And then we discussed the fact that there are some who think that there's a contradiction between James and Paul. And the point that I was beginning to make, but of course, shamelessly, we have to make money. I guess that's just the way the radio station works. Well, since you throw that out there, can I ask you a question? You said the father Abraham. I'm curious, is there anybody else in all of Israel that they could have cited that would have had more prominence or notability? Maybe Christ? I can't think of anyone else other than that. Well, I mean, in the Old Testament, Israel. Let's say you look back and all that, he is the patriarch, isn't he? Yes, he certainly is. The one that Paul likes to use, obviously, given the Jewish audience that they have, and obviously here, James, the same thing. And even Christ appealed and pointed out that, appealed to Abraham numerous times. So this is the pinnacle of the person that you could decipher him. You have Abraham, Abraham the Great One. And wasn't he justified by works? Well, if you look, first of all, let's give a brief discussion of the fact that James here, if it is James, the half-brother of Christ, would have language that is very similar to his brother Jesus, half-brother Jesus. And so if you were to take that as being the backbone of the conversation here, you can see that the word for dikaiosune, the word for justification, the Greek word dikaiosune, is not being used in the context that Paul is using it. There is a specific example in mind where in Matthew 11, verse 19, Jesus is about to be approached by some men who are going to challenge him on some things, and one of the things that Jesus says is, Wisdom is justified by works. Most of your translations are going to read that wisdom is vindicated by deeds, but what does that mean? Anyone can claim to have wisdom, but if he acts a fool, he is still a fool, according to the scriptures. A man may look and give wise counsel to another person, says, do not jump off a bridge, but if that man goes and jumps off a bridge, he is still a fool. So a man can claim to be wise, but his actions will prove him a fool. Well, in this context, wisdom is not justified before God, not forensically declared right before God. In this context, wisdom is vindicated as wisdom. And so if you take that as being the backbone of what James might be thinking of here, and of course you can see some very similar thoughts here with the teachings of Christ, you're going to have to realize that the use of justification here is an external justification of a claimed faith. was not Abraham our father vindicated by his works when he offered up his son?" This faith that Abraham already had, and of course if you look at the context, in Genesis chapter 22 you have the offering up of Isaac, but in Genesis 15 you have Abraham, in verse 23, you have Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. He was declared righteous by faith long before he ever offered up his son. So what we are seeing here is the proof, the vindication of this faith that Abraham has. And what's interesting about that, Mike, is that you talk about that long before. If you try to add up a chronology there, you're looking at at least 20 to maybe even as much as 40 years go by between Genesis 15 and Genesis 22. Exactly. So, what you're saying, Mike, then, is that the justifications speaking of here demonstrate a vindication of what Abraham did, demonstrating that he truly had saving faith from, obviously, Genesis 15, 6, which occurred years before. Now, there have been some, and you and I know the answer to this, who have raised the question, how can you make that argument stick? Who was there for Abraham to vindicate his faith before, since he was alone? Well, I think the answer is simple in the fact that Abraham is being cited here for us to judge. You see that Abraham, our father, was vindicated by works. But there was another individual there who we often forget, and that is his son Isaac. And then, of course, there are the men that were down there when he said, my son and I will return to you in the morning. Well, if he didn't come with his son, there's something to that. So the fact is these men saw men saw the external vindication of this of this claimed faith. He claimed to have faith. He did have faith. He demonstrated his faith. And he was vindicated by those deeds. You know, you talk about the fact that Abraham had that faith to begin with. This is something that goes very deep within Abraham's history. And at chapter 15 of Genesis, he's declared righteous. The interesting thing is that change that had taken place within Abraham, that declaration of his faith that he was given by God, resulted in Isaac, in the story of Isaac. It resulted in many things that Abraham did over time. You know, when I witness to Mormons, it's It's just so often you get this cart before the horse argumentation as the Mormon strictly looks at James chapter 2 and only wants to interpret it in a works salvation kind of method. And what they don't understand is exactly what's being said there, like you guys have been going on here. We use this analogy, and I had shared this with you before the program. that if I decided, out of the blue as a human being, that I'm going to go and get me a great big sheepskin, and I go out to maybe some pastures up in northern Arizona, and I find myself a pasture of sheep, I can put on that sheepskin, and I can get out there with those sheep, and they're pretty docile, so they're not going to do anything to harm me probably, and I can get down on all fours, put that thing around me, and I can go, baa, baa, baa, All day long. It's a great impersonation, Rich. Well, you know, I received a little criticism last show about my Cosell impersonation, but we won't go there. Anyway, the thing is, I can do that all day long, and you know, I've got the sheepskin on, I look like a sheep, I'm going babab, I'm doing what the other sheep are doing, I'm even eating the grass, and I look like a sheep, I act like a sheep, I'm doing everything, all the works. But I'm not a sheep. Right. Absolutely. And the thing is, is after a while, and this is what's key to understand, after a while, I'm going to get real tired of doing this. and I'm going to throw off the sheepskin and I'm going to go back after my old ways. Or you're going to eat the sheep. Or I'm going to eat the sheep, wolf and sheep clothing analogy, all that, but the point is that if God were to right now change me by nature into a sheep, and he can do that, he's my creator and he has that ability to do that, and you guys were to take me up to that pasture and let me loose, guess what? I would look like a sheep. I would act like a sheep. I would go, bah, bah, all that, just like a sheep. And there'd be a reason for that. because I was a sheep because he changed my nature and therefore because I was a sheep I acted like a sheep and the same holds true in this passage that's what James is talking about he's like hey you know your faith if it's real faith he's going to do these things because by nature that's what real faith does. And that does set the context then Mike for what we now have in verse 24. Exactly. You have a discussion of the man who says, you see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. Now, very quickly, we have about a minute remaining. I wanted to give a very quick example. If Abraham was not good enough, because some people might say, well, Abraham was good anyway. He brings out Rahab the harlot, opposite end of the spectrum from Abraham. She was justified by works, by vindication. Now you look at the example in Joshua chapter 2. She, among all the others, if you look at it, she said, I know the Lord has given this land to you. All the other people, our hearts were melted away, they were fear of God, they heard that he had part of the Red Sea, all these weird things, but she knew and she acted upon it. separating herself from the rest of the other people, and she went and became eventually a part of the lineage of Jesus Christ. And this very last example in verse 26, what is the example here? A person, if you see a body, this is what is being said here, if you see a body that does not have proof of life, how do you prove that a body is alive? You prove the body is alive by one thing and one thing only. In this context, does he have breath? Now some people see spirit, some people have a theological context, but look at the practical application. The word for spirit here is also translated breath or wind in other passages. The example that is being used here is that the body without breath is dead. so also faith without works is dead and again it is the claimed faith of verse fourteen well ladies and gentlemen that is it for today thanks for joining us we hope that it was edifying and we pray that uh... god will bless you and that's it for the dividing line today we'll see you next week i understand mister mike munoz and uh... sean hon will be a with us next week and uh... we're looking forward to that show thanks a lot god bless