Second Timothy 2.15. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Alpha and Omega Ministries presents the Dividing Line radio broadcast. The apostle Peter commanded all Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence. Your host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha and Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, you can call now by dialing 602-274-1360. That's 602-274-1360. Or if you're out of the Metro Phoenix dialing area, it's 1-888-550-1360. That's 1-888-550-1360. And now, with today's topic, here's James White. And good afternoon Phoenix. My name is Rich Pierce sitting in for dr. White today He is once again down in Tucson teaching for Golden Gate Theological Seminary And I'm gonna be sitting in for him kind of sort of picking up a little bit where he left off last week Yes, we're going to be talking about Mormonism once again The last time I was with you I was going through the book of Abraham and And focusing on Joseph Smith's ability to translate Reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics. Now, the one thing I want to do this day, this particular show, is a little bit different than what I normally do when I come in and sit in. And I kind of want to throw it out to open phones for the subject of General Mormonism. General Mormonism questions, discussion, etc. I have some issues that I want to talk about, and I will be kind of introducing the show, going into them, regarding the person of Joseph Smith and who he was, what his origins were, what his background was, and, well, some, shall we say, interesting things in his checkered past, as well as his checkered life, which is all in the past. one of the things that i wish twenty twenty hindsight ladies and gentlemen i really wish that i would have done this week but uh... circumstances uh... didn't allow me to do that and i found out after the fact that i had missed it pbs aired this week television documentary as it were called the american prophet the story of joseph smith And one of the things I would like to talk about with you today is if you had a chance to see that show, because I didn't. I did not get a chance to see that show. I did not get a chance to go through it. I'm going to be reading a little bit of information from a gentleman that I respect a great deal who did get to see it and wrote a, shall we say, an editorial on it. And I will be reading that shortly. But today's show is going to depend a great deal on your participation. I need to have you folks that have been following with us for years, that are familiar with our Mormonism ministry, and are familiar with this particular subject of Joseph Smith, and hopefully got a chance to see the show, call in, and shall we say, share with me your thoughts and share with Phoenix and the nation over the internet your thoughts on the show and how you think it was portrayed. I'll be honest with you, I've seen a number of different secular programs done discussing Mormonism. uh... i saw a movie a few years ago that i thought was uh... fairly well done uh... starring charles bronson where uh... he was a newspaper investigator and i went through uh... investigations of some uh... uh... mormon uh... offshoot groups that were still performing blood atonement that we're doing uh... all kinds of interesting things to one another and he was investigating a murder that had taken place uh... regarding one of the leaders of one of these groups And, again, we've talked about blood atonement in the past and the implications of that. But to get into Mr. McKeever's evaluation of this program, I received, fortunately, in the mail yesterday his his newsletter called mormonism researched uh... will plug here for him because i think he deserves it uh... he is uh... the head of mormonism research ministry out of alcohol in california if you look at their website they are at w w w dot m r m dot org and uh... he goes on here some uh... some comments that i highlighted here in his commentary tracing the story back to the beginning the film comments on the religious excitement that was taking place at the time of smith's first vision only the eighteen thirty-eight official account is referenced uh... he's uh... speaking of a gentleman named alan folks who is one of the apostles of the uh... uh... mormon church and uh... folks goes on here let me turn the page uh... Let's see here. It states that the resistance Smith faced by the religious leaders of his day was due to the fact that their motives were tainted. Says Oakes, words like jealousy and envy and threat and resentment come quickly to mind. The possibility that this immediate resentment was based on the fact that Smith was making claims contrary to the Bible is never given plausibility. He later goes on to say that the film ignores the fact that Mormon scripture has undergone several revisions and that it does not teach the necessary precepts modern Mormons believe that they must practice in order to achieve celestial glory. condemnation against the Book of Mormon, and even Smith himself, comes through the mouths of Smith's enemies. None of the particular arguments that drew them to these conclusions are discussed." So already he's kind of going into something that, well, oftentimes uh... we hear and i think uh... pb that pbs uh... as i recall a few years ago did a program on the migration of the mormons uh... from uh... from the midwest out into utah and again uh... the persecutions of the opposition that the mormons face uh... well these folks are are bitter people they uh... they're resenting they resent joseph smith they resent uh... uh... the mormon church this new religion that started up they have jealousy they have envy they're threatening uh... these kinds of terms are given to the motivations of the people who were contrary to the mormon movement early on to joseph smith's claims early on uh... As he goes on here on the next to last page, this one's lengthy, but I think it's very telling in what it does say and the things that are very much missing, apparently missing, if you're familiar with Joseph Smith's genuine history. The film dares not to venture into the relationship Smith had with his wife. Many Mormons have been led to believe that they had an ideal marriage. uh... van wagner and he's speaking of richard van wagner who wrote a book and this is what he's quoting from called sydney regnet sydney rigdon portrait of a religious excess now where uh... he's uh... van wagner's talking about this a multitude of uh... van wagner notes the following on page two hundred ninety three of this book a multitude of mormon records provides irrefutable evidence for smith's prerogative an array of women many of them just a few years older than his own children. And while the prophet now stands astride the Mormon world like a colossus in Nauvoo, he maneuvered within the charisma of his own mystique to defy both church, Nauvoo City, and Illinois marriage laws, as well as to conceal his behavior from his wife, Emma. This equivocal deportment, secreted by a deferential and circumspect group of men and women, created two cultures in Nauvoo, one where monogamy and fidelity prevailed, the other where eros and duplicity seemed to subvert the highest moral values, and where exonerating the Lord's anointed became more important than telling the truth. This dichotomy left Joseph's and Emma's marriage hanging by a thread. Emma spent the last three years of her husband's life jealously battling his errant yearnings, more than once threatening to return to her family in New York." Mr. McKeever goes on, several Mormon historians discuss an event where Emma Smith caught her husband alone in the, quote, hamo, unquote, with their 19-year-old maidservant, Fanny Ward Alger. On page 10 of his book, Mormon Polygamy, Van Wagner writes that there was a sexual relationship, seems probable. Hmm, okay, fine. Some have argued that she became Smith's first secret plural wife. Promising the salvation of her family, Smith also tried to secretly, turning the page here, marry the 15-year-old daughter of his associate, Heber C. Kimball. He also hit on the 19-year-old daughter of Sidney Rigdon. She rebuffed his advances. This is the man of whom Gordon Hinckley says, I reverence him, I respect him, I admire him, I honor him. In June of 1844, several dissidents joined to print the Nauvoo Expositor, a newspaper that exposed the American prophet's plural life system. As the town's mayor, Joseph Smith led the Nauvoo City Council to order the printing press destroyed, along with all the existing copies of the paper. peck said illinois governor tom this is uh... gregory packages he's playing the role in the movie i guess illinois governor thomas ford intervened issued an arrest warrant and ordered joseph to turn himself in a carthage the hancock county seat Joseph at first refused. Joseph and Hiram were actually planning to flee Nauvoo and head west toward the Rocky Mountains. According to the documentary history of the church, volume 6, page 549, Emma Smith sent Oren Porter Rockwell with a letter urging her husband to return. Several of Smith's followers accused him of cowardice, stating that once he was gone, their property would be destroyed and they left without house and home. States the narration, his enemies were not willing to wait for a trial, broker a settlement, or risk Joseph somehow wrestling from their grip. their faces daubed with mud and is to disguise their identities the force stormed the carthage jail in a flash they were up the stairs and firing through the door unquote no mention is made the both hiram and joseph had earlier in the day received two smuggled pistols from a friend named cyrus we lock also in the cell with smith brothers were so the smith brothers were willard richards and john taylor taylor records that when a musket ball pierced the door and mortally wounded hiram smith joseph instantly arose with a firm quick step and determined expression of countenance approach the door and pulling the six shooter left left by brother wheelock from his pocket open the door slightly and snapped the pistol six successive times only three of the barrels however were discharged by afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges two of whom i am informed died this from documentary history of the church volume seven page one hundred and three We wholeheartedly agree with Richard L. Bushman when he says, even if Joseph Smith trespassed on American sensibilities about freedom of the press, that did not license people to gun him down. Despite the concept of frontier justice, the attack on Carthage Jail and the killing of Smith was unjustifiable. That from Mormonism Research and Ministry, Bill McKeever. Very well done. And that was his impression of the television show. And I'd like to know what your impressions were. If you're a Mormon and you feel that Mr. Smith was portrayed in a certain way, positively or negatively, I'd like you to give us a call, 1-800-550. 1360. I'm sorry, that's 1-888-550-1360. And if you're in the local Phoenix dialing area, we're at 602-274-1360. And our first caller is calling in from Fresno, California. Mike, how are you today? Great, thank you. Yes, my question is, is there a high suicide rate among Mormon missionaries? I think it's an excellent question. I do want to ask you a question before I answer it, though. My question is kind of curious as to what leads you to ask the question in the first place. Was there something you watched? Well, I don't have all the data in front of me as far as why. you know, believe that it was just reading various unconfirmed reports that didn't substantiate with, you know, any information. There were some anecdotal reports that I had read about it, and I was just wondering how real it was. Well, I'll give you Alpha and Omega Ministries' standard answer on this question, because we hear it a lot, and it's not necessarily about Mormon missionaries, but Mormon youth in general. One of the first films ever to be released in my adult lifetime that I've ever heard of was a film called The Godmakers. Are you familiar with that film? Yes. And in The Godmakers, one of the issues that is brought up is kind of this, well, you know, they've got this really high suicide rate among youth up in Utah. And it's a sensational thing to do. It's a sensational thing to say, because when the numbers are measured up, Utah's really no different than the rest of the nation. Utah's no really different than, if you will, even evangelical Christianity when it comes to this issue and youth. The fact is, they blend right in with the norm. I don't know anything about missionaries having this problem. Quite frankly, the number of missionaries that I've talked with, I would be quite shocked. One of the things that it takes to be a Mormon missionary for two years out there, especially in this country, dealing with the kind of folks that hopefully more and more evangelical Christians are becoming more knowledgeable about Mormonism, Mormon teachings, and are better prepared to give an answer. But I've sat in front of Mormon missionaries who clearly, their faith was rocked after our presentation and after our talking with them. I've seen Mormon missionaries just jokingly, after listening to Dr. White go on for a half an hour or so, one of them jokingly took his badge and threw it across the room. That was funny, and we all laughed. But their next question was, well, what do we do now? But even in those circumstances, to my knowledge, the missionaries finish their mission. And that's a tough thing to do when you don't believe that the Mormon Church is the true Church. So in a lot of ways, what we've found that they do is they kind of reel back into what we call the Mormon testimony, trying to reaffirm their belief in the Mormon Church, despite whatever doubts we've placed in their minds. And so oftentimes when we talk with them, we kind of take the approach of, look, let us give you some books, or maybe we can send them to you after you're off your mission. Listen, we know you're busy. We know you've got two years on this mission, and we don't expect you to read them right now. But if you would, just kind of tuck them away when you're done with your mission, when you get a chance to kind of reflect back on all that's happened on your mission. give the book a read and consider, because oftentimes what happens is they really don't let that guard down until after they're off their mission. So I would be really surprised, given my experience with the temperament and the mindset that the missionaries have, that that would be an issue. I also felt somewhat the same way, and that's why I was mentioning that it was all anecdotal, you know, in nature. And I really appreciate a rational answer in regard to that, and one that doesn't necessarily attack them personally. My opinion on, and this is basically Alpha and Omega's evaluation of the Godmakers, and much more so the Godmakers 2, is that it got into some sensational stuff and left some important information out. And I think it's important for us who are involved In this kind of ministry, to be able to say that, and to be able to say to folks, because you don't know how many times we run into Mormons, we're there talking with them, and they go, well, you've been watching the Godmakers too many times. And there's just all this false information in there, etc. And I don't know that it's necessarily false, but it's more innuendo. And a better way of presenting that information regarding Mormon youth, in my opinion, would have been to say, look, this is an organization that claims a tremendous amount of the population of the state of Utah. And Utah has this suicide rate that's right there within the norm of the rest of the country. Now, if this is the one true church, if this is God's anointed church, You follow my direction here? Yes, that you would expect the suicide rate to be less than. You'd expect it to be remarkably lower. Right. You would expect God to be really kind of doing a lot of different things, and given the fact that the Mormons, especially in Utah for the most part, live the kind of life that the Church goes around proclaiming that they live, they're very sweet people, they're very sincere, they believe what they believe intently, They do everything within their power to live the life that the Mormon Church has laid out for them to live. And you see the difference. I mean, when you meet someone who's a devout Mormon, you know this is not a general old Philistine that you run into at work. This is not just somebody that you're going to encounter on a routine basis that is, like I said, a secular kind of individual. This is someone who is very devout. So if that's how different they are in their lives, why is this result just the same as the rest of our society? I really appreciate this, what I consider to be a really sound answer on this, and thank you very much. You bet. Thanks for calling, Mike. I appreciate your call. and uh... mike's called uh... two seven four actually michael one eighty eight five five zero thirteen sixty one eighty eight five five zero thirteen sixty would like to hear from you today in a discussion on general mormonism just kind of looking at the uh... the question answers that uh... christians have for it if you're lds i'd like to talk with you today uh... and i get like to get your impressions uh... from uh... whoever about the issue of the book American Prophet, the story of Joseph Smith, and see what you thought of the movie. Like I said, I didn't get a chance to see it, but from Bill McKeever's perspective, it does sound like a lot was left out of the life of Joseph Smith that, in my opinion, as well as shared by Mr. McKeever, is pivotal in understanding who Joseph Smith was, and uh... the deception that really he perpetrated on uh... and well-meaning people and uh... just to get into that and start discussing it you may want to know if you didn't see the movie and i don't know if they went into all this information but his origins where joseph smith come from who is this guy and how is it that all this stuff uh... came about Well, first of all, Joseph Smith was born on December 23, 1805, in Sharon, Windsor County, Vermont. Now, keeping up with the Smith family as they moved around is very important, and I don't want to get too deep into it today, but in a future show, when I get to substitute for Dr. White, I'm going to delve into the First Division. And you've heard, if you've talked about Mormonism at all, you are familiar with the First Vision story of Joseph Smith and all the things that go along with that. That is predominantly the foundation of Mormonism. If the First Vision didn't take place, the rest of it falls like a house of cards. And so as we go through this we understand that Joseph Smith was born just before Christmas in 1805. His family moved to a town called Palmyra in New York in 1815. they then moved to manchester in eighteen ninety nineteen he was the fourth of nine children and one of the things that folks uh... on both sides of the fence like to go after joseph smith whether positively or negatively was the fact that he had very little formal education to my understanding that joseph smith He essentially had a fourth-grade education. From the Mormon perspective, that's a really good thing. How can a man with such little education accomplish so much? And from the critical perspective of Joseph Smith, we sit back and say, it explains a lot. It explains a lot of Joseph Smith's actions and his writings and his abilities. His character is unfortunately said to be that of the highest, according to the Mormon perspective on the issue. There's a couple of quotes here. I'll be honest with you, I don't have Journal of Discourses in my possession anymore. I have given the volumes away. It's a 26-volume set and has very valuable valuable quotations in it. We've gone to the LDS Collectors Library for our quotations, which has all that in there, and I was looking around in Dr. White's library this morning for the CD so that I could get a couple of quotes that I didn't have in my manual here. and uh... they were not there and the uh... character quote uh... from the mormon perspective uh... journal discourses foreign fourteen page two oh three if you have it um... i can't get a hold of because i couldn't find the cd so i'm kind of a little bit of a loss here but i do have some other quotes for you regarding uh... joseph smith from journalists discourses volume seven page two hundred and eighty nine Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation and is now engaged behind the veil in the great work of the last days. No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. from the day that the priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding up of the scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, Jr. as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are." As a pivotal decision-maker in your salvation as a Mormon, he is absolutely crucial, I guess would be a way to put that, from Journal of Discourses, Volume 8, page 223. In fact, let me throw this out, see if I can't get the phone lines lit up with this. there are some of you part of alpha and omega ministries who have the journal of discourses set that i gave you you know who you are and uh... i'm kind of hoping that you'll give a call to area code six oh two two seven four thirteen sixty and read for us a quote from journal of discourses volume seven page two hundred eighty nine as well as one from journal discourses volume fourteen it would be very helpful uh... journal discourses volume eight page two twenty three every intelligent person under the heavens that does not win informed acknowledge that joseph smith junior is a prophet of god is in darkness and is opposed to us and jesus and his kingdom on earth what do you suppose i think of them they cannot conceive their own degradation if they could they would turn away from their wickedness i know them but they do not approach they do not know me we live in an atmosphere they do not approach they have not ability to this to see the path we walk in and i believe that that quote is from uh... brigham young uh... part of my notes and one of things i was hoping to do with the set this morning was the only nail down the uh... source of the quotes and whose sermons it was from i had uh... written that in another version i can find this morning told us was volume nine page three hundred and twelve in the first epistle john it is written beloved believe not every spirit but try the spirits whether they are from god because many false prophets are gone out into the world here by no e that the spirit of god the spirit of god every spirit that confesses that jesus christ is come in the flesh is of god and every spirit the confesses not that jesus christ is come in the flesh is not a god and that is the spirit of anti christ wherever you have heard that it should come and even now is already in the world this is no test to this generation for all men of the christian world confess the jesus christ has come in the flesh this generation however is not left without a test i have taught for thirty years, and still teach, that he that believeth in his heart, and confesseth with his mouth that Jesus is the Christ, and that Joseph Smith is his prophet to this generation, is of God. And he that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh, and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is antichrist." all who confess that Joseph Smith is sent of God in the latter days to lay the foundation of his everlasting kingdom no more to be thrown down and will continue to keep his commandments are born of God." So we're going to go ahead and take a break real quick here. My board op is over there quickly screening calls because I'm normally the guy screening calls. We're going to go ahead and take a break on the dividing line. We will be right back. And we're back on the dividing line today. My name is Rich Pierce, and I'm sitting in for Dr. James White today, who is actually on the phone line with us right now. You know, James, I know what you're going to say. It's going to be, I told you so. Something along those lines, you always warned me, always keep a hard copy set of the journals around. I was just going to tell you the CDs are in the CD case right next to the computer. That's what I was going to tell you. I get in the car and I'm heading back to Phoenix after teaching. and all of a sudden I hear, well, I was going to look this up, but I couldn't find it. It's like, oh, please. I understand that the person who has the set that I gave away called and said, yeah, I'd love to look that up for you, but it's really hard to do that when I don't carry them in the car with me. Uh-huh, uh-huh. Yeah, and we both know who that is. Yeah. And I don't carry the set with me either, especially in rental cars. uh... it is all there and uh... uh... of course uh... people immediately go journal discourses journal discourses but uh... as we noticed last week uh... inciting from the temple preparation manual uh... the mormon church doesn't mind quoting from the journal discourses when what is taught there remains consistent with what they believe today absolutely but uh... when it's a a doctrine they'd rather not have people discussing all the sudden their apologist all over the fact that well you know we're not sure about the journal discourses and you know we're not totally certain of the uh... accuracy and all the rest of stuff and uh... there's a real double standard is being uh... being used there but i want to talk to me about that film has that the same thing that it uh... it really presented joseph smith in a a very positive light uh... that uh... there was really no interaction with the information about their and i shouldn't surprise that uh... pbf is going to drink deeply at the well of our society, which says that you cannot judge anything because you have no moral stance to begin with. And so let's not talk about his introduction of polygamy. Let's not talk about the time that his wife beat on him with a broom when she found out, actually beat on the, who was it that Joseph Smith read section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants to i think it may have been higher on you have to look at it and uh... that we know i i am a need to be told that the job of that like that i i don't know how to do it you'll do it and uh... he beat him out of the house with a uh... with a bro when he tried to read it to herself uh... that kind of stuff you you shouldn't expect pbf is going to uh... barely address because they know that they're going to be accused of being quote-unquote negative anti whatever else it might be That's just the fact that you can't any longer be honest with history in our society without being accused of being unloving, unkind, and so on and so forth. It's really just a manifestation of that. So all those citations are on the CD that is next to the computer in my office. Hopefully I won't find all my books on the floor when I get back there. Anyways, but anyhow, appreciate the work on the other citations, and I just wanted to give you a ring and bring up a couple of those issues. Okay, well, thanks for giving us a call today, James. Alright, talk to you in a while. Bye-bye. And we're going to go to our next caller right away, and we're going to go to Jill in Mesa. How are you today, Jill? Yes, hello, Rick. How are you? I do need you to speak up so everybody can hear you real well. Okay, yes, I have a soft voice. Yes. Have you ever read the Book of Mormon? Yes, I have. You've personally read it. Have you studied it? Well, I've read it, and yeah, I've browsed through it, I understand certain quotes, etc. But have you read every word? Yes. You have? Well, there is a promise in the Book of Mormon. But it didn't affect you at all? Then it's sufficient. It has to be, after all these other things, then it'll take place. And the point is that the Bible doesn't do that. The Bible points out that grace is a free thing, Ephesians 2, 8-10, that it is a work of God. that it is a free gift of God, and it is not a matter of works that you prepare yourself in advance to do and have taken care of all these things, and then once you've taken care of them, then God, then His grace is sufficient for you. Well, that's quite an expression. What's more is that the Book of Mormon is monotheistic. It does not teach a plurality of gods. Were you aware of that? Oh, yes. Yes, I believe in the Book of Mormon. Well, do you believe in the Doctrine and Covenants as well? Yes. Doctrine and Covenants, section 132, plural, I believe it's section 130, verse 22, where it talks about the plurality of gods? Yes, I've read everything. I understand it all. But what I'm wondering, Rick, is why are you spending your time downgrading the Mormon Church? Why don't you spend your precious time, if you don't believe it, why don't you spend your precious time teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ from the New Testament. That's a very good question. I'm glad you asked it, Jill. The motivation for doing programs like these, as well as ones on Jehovah's Witnesses, Roman Catholicism, and various other groups, is much like a circumstance where if you were to foresee that someone was about to walk out in the street in front of a car, and they were walking, and they were in danger, you would have an obligation to warn them to do whatever you could to save them from impending doom. I'm going to hang up now. I just can't abide what you're saying. Well, can I at least finish answering your question? Alright. Okay. So, ultimately, we do these kinds of programs and we do what we do. We go out to, if you've ever been out to the Easter pageant in Mesa, you've probably encountered our group out there passing out tracks. I don't know if you've ever done that, but we do what we do because we care. Okay, it's very serious to us. It is something that we honestly believe in our heart of hearts that the Word of God is... You don't have a leg to stand on. Goodbye. Okay, good day. Well, I guess Jill wasn't real happy with where I was going with this, so we'll move on to Richard in Phoenix. How are you today, Richard? Good. How are you doing, Reg? Doing all right. I had that Volume 7 in my hand. I do carry it around with me. glad to hear somebody does uh... we're looking for a quotation from uh... page two hundred eighty nine thing about these quotations is is that they are not always um... not always uh... the whole page there a segment so i can't tell you which paragraph okay uh... is particular here but it uh... has to do with the character of joseph smith and uh... i'm not sure if you were able to pick some information out there to share with us Sure. Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the veil in the great work of the last days. Oh, you know what? I just realized that was a mistype, and I did in fact read that. Oh, you did? Okay. Do you have Volume 14 there? It's in the other room, I do have it. But what I did not read was Volume 14, page 203. Let me put you on hold, Rich. I'll pick you up on the other side of the break, and we'll read that quote. Hang on. And we're going to go to a gentleman by the name of Brandon in Salt Lake City, Utah. I have to tell you something, folks, about Brandon. I met Brandon in Salt Lake this last general conference. He is a fiery young man who is a former Mormon himself, and he is very zealous to see people like Jill come to know the truth that he's come to know. How are you today, Brandon? I'm great. I really didn't know if you'd remember me or not. Yes, sir. I did have my CD with me, the Journal of Discourses. It looks like you already have a volunteer on that. Yes. I'm going to go ahead with a different question I had. Okay, shoot. Are you familiar with Stan Larson's book, Quest for the Gold Plate? I'm afraid I'm not. I'm afraid I'm not. Well, maybe you'll be familiar with what it's talking about. Okay, go ahead. It's a book about the life of Thomas Stuart Ferguson, a Book of Mormon archaeologist, born and died a Mormon. He had a really strong testimony of what he believed. He went on, he got, I mean, the church turned him down for money to start his organization, to start Archaeological Search. And he went on and started it by himself, off of private donations. What ended up happening, the church finally took over. They gave him a fairly small assignment in it. They turned it over to the then-apostle, Howard W. Hunter, and it was called the New World Archaeological Foundation. You ever heard of that? I'm afraid I haven't. I, in my studies, haven't dug that deep into the issue of archaeology in Mormonism. It's been more theological and some history, like, for instance, the history of Joseph Smith. But go ahead and share your thoughts here. Well, my thought was that as a result, he died not believing in the history of the Book of Mormon. in the end of nineteenth-century literature. I have to tell you, I've heard of a number of... I've heard mentioned a number of archaeologists or scholars in the BYU arena who honestly don't believe Mormonism to be true. It's more their life. It's more their family. It's more their environment. And that's exactly... He died, more or less, I would call him an atheist. He said in many letters that no know God existed, that it was all for, you know, health and such. And so, and if you were going to believe in a religion, why not the Mormon Church? It has, you know, great programs and such. And that was his dying view. But what the book doesn't go on to say in the end is whatever happened to the New World Archaeological Foundation, or where it went on to. And that's what I was going to ask you. If it was turned over to farms, i really wouldn't know uh... my best guess given farms current status within the church uh... and it's uh... up-and-coming um... situation uh... hang on just a second brandon cuz i may have an answer here for you want a they're just calling in from all over the place this is one way to uh... to get calls online i guess you just faint ignorance and uh... folks will come in to help you hang on to second brandon james i understand you have an answer here no i don't think they are i know uh... brenda but i think the questions about those issues uh... stuart bergerson i think is a fascinating study uh... in a mormon uh... scholar and uh... a person who is very very important in the uh... really i think in in farms even coming into existence as far as the uh... the push on the part of mormonism to establish a scholarly basis in history for the book of mormon not his uh... defection from the faith in essence uh... especially on the basis of the book of abraham as well as the the lack of archaeological evidence is i think something the modern mormon church would like very much height now between the uh... delay uh... in my calling in and turn off the radio i didn't catch the substance of brandon's question go ahead and i said you and ask you brandon because i have the conference together gentleman uh... i read it what it was with that The book, its end result, it talks about him going out, starting the New World Archaeological Foundation by himself, without support from the Church, after he found what he believed would turn into substantial evidence in a few years, and pleading for money. Spencer W. Kimball agreed to the First Presidency, gave him money for the work. It actually eventually turned into a Church-run operation, I understood. He was given a relatively small job, taken off from the president of it, and it was given to Howard W. Hunter as the leader of the program. But what the book, the book being more or less a biography of the archaeological studies of Ferguson, doesn't go past his death, and so it doesn't really go on to say whatever happened to the New World Archaeological Foundation. yeah i'm not sure what happened to it uh... the assumption would be in light of the fact that farms have now become a part of brigham young university and hence is in in essence now an official organ uh... one way or the other uh... that if there was any substance to be passed on as far as monetarily research projects uh... publications or whatever that that would be made available but there's a my gut feeling is that there's a there's a tremendous amount of uh... embarrassment in regards to ferguson and as you know at the church's modus operandi is generally when some like that happened let it die a quiet death and uh... move on and don't uh... don't do anything to a point back to uh... to the uh... to the embarrassment right so i would imagine they're probably just bearing as much of that stuff is uh... as a possible Thanks. Well, thanks for giving us a call today, Brandon, and James, sure appreciate the rescue there. Yeah. All right. Take care, gentlemen. Thank you. And we're going to go to another break here, and we'll have just a few minutes on the other end of the break to wrap this up. We'll be back on The Dividing Line. And we're back on the dividing line. My name is Rich Pierce, sitting in for Dr. White today, sort of, kind of. He's come to the rescue a couple of times out on the highway there on his cell phone, so I appreciate that. We're going to continue on here. Richard, have you had a chance to find that quote for me? Yes, I think I have. Page 14, page 203. Yes, sir. Share that with us. Well now, examine the character of the Savior and examine the characters of those who have written the Old and New Testaments. And then compare them with the character of Joseph Smith, the founder of this work, the man whom God called and to whom he gave the keys of priesthood, and through whom he had established his church and kingdom for the last time, and you will find that his character stands as fair as that of any other man mentioned in the Bible. We can find no person who presents a better character to the world when the facts are known than Joseph Smith, Jr., the prophet, and his brother Hyrum Smith, who was murdered with him. very good quote and appreciate you looking that up for me today richard you're welcome i take care that given the environment here in this show today is gone much quicker than i thought it would be uh... but i want to share a couple of things for you first of all perhaps you were not aware that joseph smith was convicted of something in eighteen twenty six and i have the document from the what's called the trial bill in front of me, and also there is something that he was carrying in his pocket on the day he died that says something about where things came from, and we can kind of dovetail this into a future show on where the first vision, how the first vision came about, as well as how we got the Book of Mormon, how the Book of Mormon came about. But I want to read quickly because we are really short on time here. This is the text from the State of New York. This is the trial bill. State of New York versus Joseph Smith. And you can find a copy of this if you've ever seen two things. let's see here joseph smith's bainbridge new york court trials pamphlet published by a doctor by wesley p walters reverend walters uh... he has uh... in his life uh... he is uh... uh... passed away the lord now that he is uh... He was instrumental in digging up a lot of historical information and facts and cross-referencing those facts with things that the Smiths claimed to be true, or Mr. Smith claimed to be true, in his day. And yet, here, after the first vision has taken place, after the second vision has taken place, and, as I recall, shortly before the third vision, This takes place. Warrant issued upon written complaint upon oath of Peter G. Bridgman, who informed that one Joseph Smith of Bainbridge was a disorderly person and an imposter. Prisoner brought before court March 20, 1826. Prisoner examined. Says that he came from the town of Palmyra, and that he had been at the house of Josiah Stoll in Bainbridge most of the time since. Had small of time been employed by said Stoll on his farm. and going to school, that he had a certain stone which he had occasionally looked at to determine where hidden treasures in the bowels of the earth were. Now, if this confuses you a little bit, folks, it's going to clear up a little bit when we tell the story from David Whitmer's perspective of how the Book of Mormon came to be translated. Let's see here, that he professed to tell in this manner where gold mines were a distance underground, and looked for Mr. Stoll several times and had informed him where he could find these treasures, and Mr. Stoll had been engaged in digging for them. that at Palmyra he pretended to tell by looking at this stone where coined money was buried in Pennsylvania. And while at Palmyra had frequently ascertained in that way where lost property was of various kinds, that he had occasionally been in the habit of looking through this stone to find lost property for three years, but of late had pretty much given up on account of its injuring his health, especially his eyes making them sore. that he did not solicit business of this kind, and had always rather declined having anything to do with this business. Joseph Smith was convicted in this trial, and folks, the fact is that Joseph Smith was convicted in this trial because he pled guilty to glass-looking. he is in fact written up in the trial bill uh... as being glowed joseph smith the glass looker and uh... let's see here and trying to quickly uh... you get to you the testimony addressed all believers in christ uh... added from david whitmer page twelve i will now give you a description of the manner in which the book of mormon was translated joseph smith would put the seer stone mhm sound familiar into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light, and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine, a piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear. And another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus, the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man. That, according to Mr. David Whitmer, is how the Book of Mormon came to be about. Folks, that's called glass-looking or necromancy. It is condemned in the Old Testament as witchcraft. It is a pagan, at best, practice, and certainly is no method by which the God of the Bible would conduct himself. Now, some Mormons may argue that Joseph Smith gave all this up. that he was no longer involved in witchcraft, and those who will acknowledge the fact that he was involved in witchcraft in his early life, they say, well, he surrendered all this stuff, and it took him a little time, but he got rid of it. I'm looking at a pamphlet, a track that Alpha Omega Ministries has produced. It's somewhat of a little-known tract, but it is a tract called, Why Was Joseph Smith Carrying This in His Pocket on the Day He Died? And I've only got a very little bit of time to tell you about this, but I will tell you this. If you'll go to www.aomin.org and email us there, I will send you for free a copy of this tract, free of charge, so you can look it over for yourself. And so the point of the tract is that Joseph Smith was carrying, and I'll just read it for you here real quick because I do have a few seconds. The object pictured is known as a Jupiter talisman. It is an occultic talisman used in magic. And it talks about Dr. Reed Durham giving an evaluation of this. This was, by the way, found in the vaults of the Mormon church. and as something that he had on his person when he died. And it goes on into the practice. So the point is, of all of this, despite the nature of what the Mormon Church may say about Joseph Smith, the fact is he was involved in witchcraft his entire life, and according to David Whitmer, that's how the Book of Mormon came to be. We're out of time for today's dividing line. Dr. White should be back with us next week, and we can talk about this subject more. Thank you for listening in today. The Dividing Line is a presentation of Alpha and Omega Ministries. You can contact us at 602-973-0318 or you can write us at P.O. Box 37106, Phoenix, Arizona 85069. We are easy to find on the World Wide Web at www.aomin.org. That's www.aomin.org. You can also find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates, and tracks on our website. Join us again next Saturday afternoon at 2 p.m. for The Dividing Line. day.