2 Timothy 2.15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Alpha and Omega Ministries presents the Dividing Line radio broadcast. The Apostle Peter commanded all Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence. Your host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, you can call now by dialing 508-0960. That's 508-0960. And now, with today's topic, here's James White. And good afternoon, Phoenix. This is Rich Pierce sitting in for James White today. Dr. White is, once again, down in Tucson. teaching for golden gate seminary and uh... boy tell you i i don't envy those students down there they've got them set up on a crash course in theology and apologetics with doctor white because he is teaching all morning up into the afternoon and even did some teaching last night so it is a very intensive study these folks are going through as far as a telephone number goes actually it is different since the station frequencies have switched around here The temporary line, as I understand it right now, and that's why I haven't changed that intro, is 602-955-3594 is the number you can call me today. Again, as we talked three weeks ago, I'm going to pick up where we left off and be talking about witnessing to Mormons. Yes, that seems to be the one issue for me, but hey, I've been doing it for a long time, and I've got it down pretty well, and I'm more than happy to answer your questions on witnessing to Mormons today. The theme that I started off with a few weeks ago really was along the lines of some of the discussion, some of the subjects that had been thrown around a few weeks ago on the radio, having to do with Mormons in our area. I pointed out that last time I had heard, Maricopa County was the fourth largest concentration of Mormons per capita. in the world. If you're going to live in Maricopa County, folks, you're going to run into Mormons, and you're going to need to know how to deal with them. You're going to need to know a little bit more than just slamming the door in the face of that young Mormon missionary as he comes door to door. It really is not a good Christian witness to do that. In point of fact, we have had situations where in talking with Mormon missionaries in our home and in other people's homes, You know, you talk with them for a little while and they kind of get this look on their face and you kind of go, you know, what's going on? You know, they go, you know, you're the first person that's ever actually explained to me what the difference is between what you guys believe and what we believe is and that's an important thing to know. How many Mormon missionaries, I mean, We kind of sit back in this country and we kind of think everybody's heard the gospel. Is that a safe assumption to make? Is that something that we can sit back and say, you know what, these Mormon missionaries, they've heard the gospel, Mormons have heard the gospel, and they've rejected it, and they've chosen to believe that they can become gods, they've chosen to believe that God was once a man and lived on another planet, they've chosen to believe all these things in contrast to what they have heard from the Christians. Well the fact of the matter is is that the vast majority of them have never heard the gospel and they don't know what the gospel is and it is, according to the Great Commission, incumbent on who? It's incumbent on us to present them with the truth. And one of the things we need to do as Christians in this country is we need to be able to present to them the truth through the fact that we know what the authentic item is. We know what the real We have an idea, as Hank Hanegraaff likes to say, know the real thing so well that when the counterfeit presents itself, it's easy to spot. And that's one thing I think we find ourselves not prepared when the Mormon missionary comes knocking on the door. It is a scenario, I'll have to admit, that it's one of the most inconvenient times you can possibly think of when they do come knocking, as well as when Jehovah's Witnesses go. I think Jehovah's Witnesses actually have it nailed down to actually be more inconvenient than the Mormon missionaries do. But that aside, it can't hurt to say, you know what, now's not a good time. How about, because I really wasn't expecting you, but how about you come back next Saturday and set a time when you're prepared to sit down with them and talk with them. Now, once you've set that time, what are you going to do then? Well, as I had proposed in the last go-round of this issue, I pointed out that we need to keep our eye on the prize and when we get into issues like polygamy, We get into issues like white salamanders, Mark Hoffman, Solomon Spalding thesis, all these other things, and there are some peripheral issues that may have to be introduced into the conversation just because you absolutely have to. I'll give you an example of that. Joseph Smith. The Mormon wants to insist that Joseph Smith is a true prophet. And that is something that some Mormons just won't let you get around. And if I have to go into an examination of Joseph Smith in order to get them to see the gospel clearly, and I have to expose Joseph Smith, then I'll do that. then I'll go into that. But ultimately, I'm not going to introduce my subject, I'm not going to introduce myself, if you will, and my belief system by just slamming on Joseph Smith. I want to focus on what the gospel is. And like last week, we went through the verses of the 100-verse memorization system. We covered those on the person of God. And we went through who God is and what the Bible has to say. And again, the 100 verse memorization, if you didn't get a chance to listen to the previous show three weeks ago, is what we consider at Alpha Omega Ministries to be, if you will, our top 100 verses list. It's the top 100 verses for witnessing to Mormons. And guess where you can find them? That's right, on the internet. We consider it public domain, folks. You can download it, you can print it out, and you can study it. 100 verses with commentary from Dr. White on how to use these verses in conversation in witnessing to Mormons. Now, again, I want to reiterate, last to go around, it wasn't until like the last 10 minutes of the show when the phone started lighting up. Folks, I want some interaction today. I want to discuss the verses, I want to discuss situations that you may have had with a Mormon missionary or a Mormon family member coming to your home or talking with you at work or whatever. I want to discuss these situations and if you've had situations to where they kind of stumped you, I want to be able to help you out today. And that's what we're going to focus on. For those of you who have the internet, internet access, I want to lead you into our website, www.aomin.org. Now the thing you need to keep in mind here is I do recognize it may take you a little bit to get there. I have a dial-up networking or dial-up connections myself, and so I know that it takes a few minutes to get to the web page, dial up and hook in, but if you can, hook into the website, and if you hooked into the website last time around, you noticed that, or you will notice this time around, that the page looks very different. I've been working this week and I have totally reconstructed our main page and some of the sub-pages. I will be getting to the many of them beyond that, but I've been cutting out some of the unnecessary redundancies and duplicate pages, etc., that were unnecessary. And so today, if you go to look on the left-hand side of the column there and the main page, you're going to see where it says Apologetics. and underneath that you'll see Mormonism. That's a hyperlink. You'll see several different subjects there, but if you go to Mormonism and click on that, it's going to take you to a page that has several different topics of which you can look over. Folks, I gotta tell you, our website is such a tremendous resource for so many. I get the phones during the week, and I get folks calling me up just telling me over and over and over about how much time they have spent on our website, and how incredibly helpful it has been. And that's the thing you need to keep in mind is that it is there to be a help for you, it is there to be of assistance so that you can go and you can study these things online, you can print them out, you can have them available to you, and you can have them available when you need to when you're witnessing to someone. And so if you'll go about two-thirds the way down that page that you're on, under apologetics in the Mormonism section, you will see 100 verses for witnessing to Mormons. Click on that. And we have already covered what, after I printed it out, amounted to the first 10 pages Talking about who God is, we've covered the differences between Yahweh and Elohim. We've covered the definition of God, that there is only one true God in all of existence. That's a big difference between our beliefs and Mormonism. We've covered the authority of God's Word, Proverbs 30, verses 5 and 6, etc. And we've covered, at the last part of the show, God's nature and finished up with, and I want to reiterate this verse because I don't know if I had much time to really camp out on this last time, but 2 Chronicles 6.18, speaking of God and His nature, it says, And the key to understanding that passage is that this is Solomon dedicating the temple. and he's built this temple it's taking him taking him a great deal of time and effort uh... in israel to get this wonderful temple built it's huge it's gigantic it's got gold inlays and all kinds of things in there And it would be very easy for the people, remember these are the people that stood there in front of the golden calf when Moses was up on the mountain. And Moses is up on the mountain and they're sitting back going, you know what Aaron, we need a God to worship so build us a golden calf. These are the people that kind of had a tendency to want to have something tangible to worship. They needed to have an image. Okay, and Solomon is sending a message to them. He's sending a message to them about the kind of God in which they worship in Israel. Okay, and he says again that the heaven and the heaven of heavens can't contain God. How much less this huge, gigantic temple which he's built How can that contain him? Solomon recognized that the temple can't possibly contain the limitless, endless God of the universe. The one who created all that is. And so that's an important thing to know. And if that doesn't give you an idea of the kind of verses that we're going to be looking at today as we begin to focus on who Jesus Christ is in contrast to the Mormon Jesus, okay, then that's a great example of what we're going to look at. And there's some good stuff here from the Bible that you can sink your teeth into, folks, and have. It's effective. Let me tell you something. We're going to be going up to Salt Lake City on October 2nd. What is October 2nd? What's the big deal? It is the General Conference of the Mormon Church. Twice a year, the Mormon Church in Salt Lake City has had basically this big meeting, ever since their inception. And they have it in Salt Lake City. At the the Mormon temple there about I guess about 30,000 people show up to this thing and we get those numbers from the security guards We know the security guards up there very well Why do we know the security guards? That's kind of weird Well, we know the security guards because we have been doing this since I believe 1984 for twice a year we show up on the Saturday of the general conference and we stand outside the gates of the temple and We're dressed nicely, appropriately for the occasion, and we pass out tracts. We smile, say, hi, how are you today? We're pleasant, we're polite, and we will pass out our tracts and talk to people. We'll smile, and basically the idea is we're there to witness to them. We're there to share the good news of the gospel with them. And these verses have been tried in that environment. They've been tried out in Mesa. at the Easter pageant of the Mormon Church that they hold, which is a very big draw, and they have had a great deal of success with this event. But then again, we've been standing on the corners as these folks come in, and we pass out our tracts, and we let people know that the Mormon gospel is a false gospel. I'm going to say it right out. The Mormon Jesus is a false Jesus. And when it comes to looking at Colossians chapter 1, verses 15 and following, we're going to see some remarkable differences between the God of the Bible, or the Jesus of the Bible, and the Jesus of Mormonism. Now again, I want to reiterate, give me a call. 602-955-3594. 602-955-3594. And for the sake of discussion, I want to call on the Alpha and Omega guys out there. The folks that have assisted us over the years. Give us a call. Let's talk about on the air. Share with folks what it's been like for you being out on the front lines witnessing to Mormons. And let's talk about some of those verses and how your experience has been in doing that. Anyway, Colossians 1 chapter 1 verses 15 through 17. it says of jesus christ actually uh... let's back up here and uh... if my program will let me do that here i'm gonna get over here too i'm using bible works for those of you who are interested and uh... display Verse 14, I've got verse 14 through 20 up here now, in whom, and this is speaking of Jesus Christ, in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins, who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature, for by him were all things created that are in heaven, that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created by him and for him. And he is, and those are the primary, actually through 17, and he is before all things and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church, et cetera, and it continues on. The most important part of this section of verses is that it addresses a vital topic in Mormon teaching. Jesus, according to Mormons, is the spirit brother of Lucifer. That's right, he's the spirit brother of Lucifer. This amazing teaching is based on the idea that since Jesus is God the Father's literal offspring, in this case both spiritually and physically, as is Lucifer, they must be spirit brothers. This blasphemy is based on the numerous other errors such as polytheism which we have already addressed in the show. At any rate, it is quite useful, as well as important, to be able to demolish this falsehood biblically and these verses provide the framework in which to do it. Now by utilizing Colossians in the above passage, you'll force the Mormon to see the scriptural position concerning Christ over and against their limited ideas. The LDS Church now does not teach that Jesus created all things, while at the same time denying that. Yes, I know it doesn't make sense, but see the Mormon limits the Bible's authority spatially. In other words, the Bible is true as long as it rests on planet Earth. It is only for this world. You've got to understand that. It's only for this world. Hence, when the Bible says all things, the Mormon automatically thinks of only those things related to this world. They can't understand that it means all things. They must alter the scriptures at this point in their thinking. The Christian must point out this illogical thinking, and that's not easy, folks. Mormons don't have a concept of the true, eternal, almighty, omnipotent God of the Bible that Christians do. The Bible clearly states that Jesus created all things, and there are no exceptions. This may surprise you, but some Mormons may actually ask you the question, well, who created God? Did Jesus create God? See, that's the argument. I mean, think about it a second. We step back to the origin of the individual that Mormons call Elohim. That is who the Mormons identify, that's the term by which they identify, the Father. God the Father. They believe he existed, pre-existed on another planet in mortal form. That he was actually a man once. In fact, Orson Pratt actually taught once that he was a sinner. at the time and that he was redeemed from that planet and came over here and procreated and started a new planet. So it's important for us to recognize that if Jesus Christ created all things, powers, principalities, that he is before all things. The thrones, dominions, all things in heaven and in earth were created by him and for him and by him all things consist. Well, does that mean that Jesus created God? Did he create the planet that God the Father lived on before? Hmm, doesn't make sense. No, it doesn't at all. The point is is that God is eternal So again, like in last show we talked about Psalm 90 verse 2 before the mountains were formed or ever Thou has formed the earth and the worlds even from everlasting to everlasting Thou art God and we're going to continue this discussion of Colossians chapter 1 right after this break Well I guess I just set the board up over the edge there with that break because I'm sitting here cruising along in Colossians chapter 1 and I thought gosh it sure is awful early and I look over and I see 228 on the clock sitting next to me and I go oh my gosh it's time for a break right now. Well, hey, the phone lines are starting to light up, so maybe that was the trick to do it. Apparently I was about ten minutes early on that break, so I guess I really shocked the heck out of the board op in there. Anyway, getting back into Colossians chapter one. let's see here uh... the important thing here to understand as we're looking at these verses is that jesus christ a is the in image the expressed image of the invisible god and uh... according to my bible works here the term image means image figure or likeness and image of all things the heavenly things or uh... et cetera ago it goes on and on on um... To Christ, on account of his divine nature and absolute moral excellence, he is the exact likeness of the invisible God. And that's important to understand. But that he is the creator of all things. And that's something that Mormons don't, their Jesus, their version of Jesus doesn't click like that at all. Their version of Jesus didn't create, he organized, he helped organize this planet. In fact, it wasn't even Elohim. So if you're going to look at the Father, if you're going to even try to co-relate Mormon thought to what the Bible has to say, Elohim didn't actually create this planet, He sent Michael and Jehovah, who Mormons identify as the Son, down to organize it. So I guess in an indirect way He did create it, but that's that's a bit problematic there. So, continuing on, we're going to take Jennifer in Phoenix. How are you doing today, Jennifer? If you thought when she's running down there, or walking down with the... Hello? Jennifer? Hi, how are you? I don't know what that was. My question for you is, if Jesus is God, how do you explain him to be the firstborn of every creature? Um, and that's a very good question. That is something that Mormons will throw out. And it really has to do with how the term firstborn is used here. And it's really important to understand that. Now, let me ask you a question. How familiar are you with your Old Testament? Have you had a chance to really understand the use of the term firstborn in the Old Testament? I'm not really. I'm swinging over here. The Greek term is prototikos. It doesn't necessarily in its usage in regards to Jesus Christ refer to actually an offspring. The thing about, it's important for us to understand about the term firstborn is, and I'm looking through the notes here on the internet to see if we've got a comment there because we should. I'm not finding it here at the moment. But it means preeminence. the firstborn in israel someone who was the firstborn had the uh... number one he had double honor he was the representative of the family he was the one that everything was going to get past too in the family and so uh... he had a double honor he had a double inheritance He had what was called preeminence in all things. And the big thing in the use of this term that we need to understand is that when we talk about nature and being, when in the Bible, when I'm my father's son, I'm the same as my father. Do you understand that? Well, in other words, my father would have a certain status in the community. I would have that same respect when I became a man. They would treat me the same as my father. If they had respect for my father, they would have respect for me because all things that are my father would be passed on to me. See, the point is, in using the term firstborn, he is, and it goes back previously to that, it says, who is the image of the invisible God. That's the first thing we have to understand there. The firstborn of every creature. He pre-existed every creature, but he was not an offspring. He is in relation to the Father as a son, but he is not a begotten as in his nature in relation to the Father as he is in his deity. But at the same time, he is begotten as the man Jesus Christ. okay this is a uh... this has been a bible difficulty uh... in fact you might find on our website i believe we have a paper on it and uh... i'll spell it out here for you the greek term is prototypos p r o t o k o s put that together there but uh... it's uh... all the different meanings of what prototypos can mean in its usage in the new and in the old testament is very important and in this particular term it's used metaphorically to describe the relationship of the son to the father and the son as he is called the son of man. Okay? I hope that is clear. That's not an easy one. Jennifer, let me put you on hold a second. I'd like the guys off air to talk to you and I guess it is time as I look at the clock up here, the other clock, time to go ahead and take a break. So let's go ahead and do that now, Jim. Theology. What a concept. I always wanted to say that on the air, you know? Theology is, I find, cool. Okay? I dig into theology. I find it fascinating. I love sitting under the teaching of Dr. White, and I've worked with him as president of the Alpha Omega Ministries for years, and I just love digging into the Word of God. Unfortunately, as so many in our culture, I find myself convicted deeply by the fact that I don't get into it nearly as often as I should. I'm looking at John chapter 1. Turn with me to John chapter 1, focusing on verse 3. Now, it's important for us to understand the context of this, lest it become a pretext to try to argue our personal points. John 1, in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him and without him, not anything was not anything made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not." There was a man sent from God and it goes on about John the Baptist. The focal point there is, speaking of Jesus Christ, and of course if you doubt If you're one of those folks that doubt that this is talking about Jesus Christ, well, we'll go down to verse 18 a second. And verse 18 says that no man has seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is the, I'm sorry, I meant verse 14. and the word was made flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld his glory the glory as of the only begotten of the father full of grace and truth now jennifer asked that question about the term firstborn we've got more there in verse fourteen about the as of the only begotten of the father okay it is not saying that as in relation to the father that the son is a procreated, and that's something we've got to emphasize, not procreated. He is. He says, if you've seen me, you've seen the Father. It says there that we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten Father, full of grace and truth. And so the point is that when you looked upon Jesus Christ, you were looking at God and that's that's a very important distinction to make okay going on all things were made back on verse three all things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made Now I think that's pretty thorough. You put that together with Colossians chapter 1 which will reiterate again that he's the image of the invisible God the firstborn of every creature. By him all things were created that are in heaven that are in earth visible and invisible whether they be thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. Now I'm going to take a right turn here actually a left turn over to Deuteronomy chapter 4. Deuteronomy chapter 4 verse 39 is the one that I want to look at here and I'm finding it here Deuteronomy 4 verse 39 says no therefore today and take it to your heart that the lord remember what we said last time around about lord when you see it in all caps like that you know the ordeal or will smaller but it's still capital letters who's that identifying that's jehovah or yahweh okay jehovah is the german pronunciation of it the lord he is god in heaven above and on the earth below there is no other there's no other. And so when you see Jesus Christ saying, or John saying about Jesus Christ, verse 3, that all things were made by him and without him not anything was made. And in Colossians, heaven above. Everything was created that are in heaven and that are in earth. Clearly John is claiming Jesus Christ is the one true God of Israel, that there is no other. Paul in Colossians is claiming that Jesus Christ is the one true God who created the heavens themselves and the earth below. It is very, very clear. And you've got to camp out on these verses and reiterate their context to the Mormon to help them to understand what is being said and what is not being said. Okay, let's go ahead and move on. We're going to go down to the section on salvation. The big three, that we call it, when it comes to differentiating what is a false religion or a non-Christian cult, to use what is a very broad term, we use the big three, and that is, who is God? What their vision of God is, what their theology of God is, what their theology of Jesus Christ is, and what their doctrine of salvation is. And is it consistent with Scripture? Or have they reinvented it? Those are the big central doctrines of the faith. If you have a false God, you are not a Christian. If you have a false Christ, you are not a Christian. And if you have a false doctrine of salvation, I believe the Apostle Paul makes it very clear in the book of Galatians, you are not a Christian. Moving on to the topic of salvation, we are going to look at 1 Corinthians verses 15 verses 1, 3-5. 1 Corinthians 15, 1, 3-5 and you may notice I am reading from the King James. The New American Standard works just fine in these situations and I can turn over to that as well over there. But oftentimes, as I said in the last show, talking to Mormons, it's important to present to them the gospel from the King James. If not, you may find yourself having to explain where we got the Bible and how we got the Bible, and that's not a problem if you're able to do that. A lot of folks don't really have a good solid foundation there. And so if you want to avoid those kind of topics coming up, use the King James. They use it themselves and supposedly find it trustworthy, although they find themselves arguing with many verses such as these. Okay, 1 Corinthians chapter 15. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you. For I delivered unto you, first of all, that which I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he was seen of Cephas then of the twelve. Well, this verse needs a little bit of an introduction. When the subject of the Gospel comes up, the Christian needs to point out that the Gospel of Mormonism is not the Gospel of the Bible. The Gospel of Mormonism is not the Gospel of the Bible. Another question and answer situation might be helpful in that regard. For instance, do you know where the classic definition of the Gospel is found in the Bible? I can't honestly ever remember getting the proper answer from a Mormon. But if you did, I wouldn't let it bother you. Chances are that the Mormon has spoken to either Wally Taupe or some of our volunteers. At any rate, you then continue, no matter what the response, it can be found in 1 Corinthians chapter 15, where Paul says, and when you quote the above passage after having done so, you might continue. See, the gospel is the story of the person and work of Jesus Christ. It is the message of his death, burial, and resurrection. Now let me ask you a question. Did you hear any laws and ordinances in the gospel? You see, Mormons believe that the gospel contains ordinances and principles. It's from their third article of faith. The answer, of course, is no. Now, the Mormon will immediately jump into some work salvation proof text, which you will probably have to properly exegete for them, probably James chapter 2, verse 20. But before you let them direct the conversation in that direction, reiterate one thing. The fact that Paul preached a gospel and that centered on the person and work of Jesus Christ, not the person and works of the sinful man. It is incumbent on you to make sure that the Mormon sees the difference. Now let's continue on. 1 Corinthians 14. 17 and 17 and 18. Now this is key. Why is this important? It's talking about baptism and what's so important that you understand that Mormonism talks about that we must be baptized. We must be baptized at the hands of somebody who had the authority to baptize. You know, there became a great big deal in the church early on about, oh, I was baptized by Christus. I was baptized by Gaius. Well, think about this a second. In this passage, Paul says, I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Christus and Gaius. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us who are saved it is the power of God." So where's our salvation at? Where's our salvation again? I don't know why the phones are so quiet on this issue. I find during the week that they light up like crazy. The Mormon Church is a major factor in our area and in our time and we need to be discussing this. Now maybe everybody's just sitting back. I did get some feedback off the last show that folks were just sitting there taking notes and digging in and looking along with me and I appreciate that. But 602-955-3594. 602. 9-5-5-3-5-9-4. I'd love to talk with you today. And let's see here. I want to just do one more paragraph here, and then we're going to take a break. Now, understand something about this passage. It's talking about the baptism. It's a good, quick rejoinder to the Mormon contention that baptism is part of the gospel. Now, if you look at verse 17, it makes a clear distinction between baptizing and preaching the gospel. Baptism is not part of the gospel. It is separate from it. And if baptism was part of the gospel, why did Paul say it? Eighteen is for your edification. If you do this long enough and experience the truthfulness of the passage for yourself, you will not yet have the, well, someone, well, I'm sorry, I'm sitting here getting off track. The point is, is that baptism, the verse clearly separates the true, the two, it is not part of the gospel, okay? We're going to go ahead and take a break now and we'll be right back. We're back. Rich Pierce sitting in for Dr. White today. Having a problem that I don't normally have, and that's being tongue-tied. I don't normally do that. I am one of those folks who loves to talk, and so that's not normally a problem I have, but for some reason I've been tripping over my tongue today. Anyway, let's go to the phone lines and bring up Melody today. How are you today, Melody? And I hope you're enjoying the show today. Yes I am. You had a question? Yes, I have a friend who was raised Mormon, although she's not really part of it now, for which she's feeling incredible guilt. And she was talking about the Book of Mormon as being, she says a lot of people think that it's a different Bible, but it's not. It's the Bible from the other continent, and I don't know what she's talking about the other continent. Well, I guess your basic question is, what is the Book of Mormon? Right. Well, let me give you a basic review on that. First of all, Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon, and in his claim, he claimed that this was actually an account of a peoples that lived in Israel, starting out in Israel, around, as I recall, 600 B.C. And it goes up to accounting the following of these people through about 420 A.D. Now, the thing to keep in mind is that there was what's called the migration, and this migration was these people, for whatever reason, were picked on a lot by the people of Israel. And so they decided they were going to take off and get out of there. And so God led them over to the Americas. Now here's what's key to understanding the importance of the Book of Mormon. According to the Mormon Church, when Jesus, you know, when he got up on the Mount of Olives and he ascended, where did you think he went? Up. Do you think he went to the Father? Well, the Mormons dispute that. He went over to the Americas and there were peoples in the Americas in which were of the same lineage of the Israelites and he came over and preached the gospel to those people. and so you have the account of these people along through that whole process and that's basically what uh... well what is going on and there was a big war after all that uh... and the what they call the peoples of the lamanites and the nephites uh... battled it out and uh... the uh... lamanites killed off the good the bad lamanites killed off the good nephites and uh... that's kind of a uh... very cursory look at the book but it's uh... its biggest uh... value is along the lines of that is another account of uh... the other people the americas and that's what she means when she says the other continent Unfortunately, I don't believe that Joseph Smith got this off of golden plates that he says he dug up on a hill in upstate New York that he called Camora. This is the place where, at the end of the battle, they were buried, supposedly. These were the scriptures of those people, and they buried them there. and through divine revelation Joseph Smith was led to find them and then through divine revelation Joseph Smith was led to translate them out of reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics. Do you know what those are? Reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics? Right. I would have no idea. Well, nobody else does either, because they don't exist. There are Egyptian hieroglyphics, and how in the world these folks that came from Israel wind up writing their scriptures in reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics, I have no idea. He says that he used what was called the Urim and the Thummim, something that he gets a term from the Old Testament, which were two stones that were attached to the breastplate of the high priest. And it just goes on and on and on. But that's basically how the Book of Mormon came about. Ultimately, what is the purpose of the Book of Mormon? I believe the purpose of the Book of Mormon is a bridge. The point is that you are here, and I'm pointing at my Bible. I've got my Bible here and you are standing on the Bible. And you see, what they want to do is they want to take you into the Book of Mormon, which has all kinds of terminology that just sounds just like the Bible. So it must be a companion to the Bible, right? And they claim that it's God's Word too, just like the Bible is. And it's monotheistic, by the way. It doesn't teach a plurality of gods. Joseph Smith, when he wrote the Book of Mormon and had it published in 1830, didn't believe in a plurality of gods. So who do they think Jesus is? He's not God then? According to the Book of Mormon, they didn't necessarily have a problem with that. In fact, if you will, the best example that we could give of what the Book of Mormon, how God, or how Joseph Smith depicted God in the Book of Mormon would be like oneness Pentecostalism, modalism. So God shows himself in different modes. One day he's Jesus and the next day he's the Father and the next day he's the Holy Spirit. But that's kind of how his very basic understanding of God is depicted in the Book of Mormon. But it's a bridge and that bridge is to get you out of the Bible and not trust the bible and start trusting the mormon church and take you into mormon doctrine where the real stuff is very little of mormon doctrine today is actually taught in the book of mormon That's the irony. That's what's so strange about how much emphasis they place on the Book of Mormon. But their public relations department, as in the last couple of years, has kind of wised up and they've been doing these commercials on the Book of Mormon all these years. Hey, you can get a free copy of the Book of Mormon. Oh, I did. I got one. I just never read it. Did it come attached to two gentlemen in white shirts? No, I was surprised. It really was just the book and they never bothered or wrote me ever again. That's interesting, but they didn't personally deliver it to you? No, it just came in the mail. That's interesting. I wanted to see what it said, but I never actually read it. Well, you know something? It's good to be able to say that you read the Book of Mormon. This has to do with respect. If you can say to the Mormon, you know what, I've studied your faith. I know what it is you believe and I know why you believe it. And then in conversation you can bear that out. You can show that no, I do know what your church teaches and I'm actually representing it properly. That has a great deal of weight. If I were to say to you, that, you know what, let's just say for discussion, I'm an agnostic, and I don't believe the Bible, and you're a Christian, and I just think the Bible is a lot of bunk. You may look at me and go, well, why do you think that? Well, I think the Bible is a lot of bunk because it just is. Well, have you ever read it? No. No. Have you ever gone to a Christian church and heard a pastor preach? No. No. I'm not interested. I just think it's a bunch of bunk. It's a bunch of theory and a bunch of myth. How much respect are you going to have for me? None. None. You see the point is that I have dismissed your faith without ever finding out what your faith is. Right. And so it's important to be able to have a position when you're talking with a Mormon to be able to say, look, you know what, I have studied and do understand what it is that you believe. And I respect you enough and I want to share with you enough Now, I want you to see the truth, and I need to be able to contrast the gospel, the true gospel, over against what you actually believe. But then how do they, because she also said that they would bring their Bibles and the Book of Mormon together, and you know, kind of like we bring our Bible to church and pastor says, okay, read chapter, you know, and they would look it up. And I want to know, how do they put those two books together? I mean, the Book of Mormon, like the timeline, how can they fit together? How can both things have happened? Is the Book of Mormon supposed to be an event that took place after, you know? To a degree, side by side. You've got the accounts of one continent and the accounts of the other continent happening in some cases simultaneously. So in other words, this is what's going on over on this side of the world and this is what's going on at this side of the world all at the same time. It's not the same thing, it's just these are a quote unquote account of God's people over in the Americas and what occurred with them. So why would, I don't know how many times I've heard the masses, why would God ignore the rest of the world? You know, why would Jesus just come to one country? Shouldn't the gospel be spread out to these other worlds? Well, guess what? According to the Bible, that's our job. Jesus came to the people of God, the Israelites. And he came and he ministered to them and was rejected by them. And that's important to understand. You know, as far as how they handle verses, if you've talked with her at all, you get a quick idea of how they handle their verses from the Bible. And everything is very much skewed in the direction of it's got to back up Mormon doctrine. And if it doesn't back up Mormon doctrine, then I either must be understanding it wrong or it must be wrong. I don't know how many times I've had a Mormon say to me, well that isn't translated correctly. Colossians chapter 1, we were talking about that. Colossians chapter 1, they don't believe it's translated correctly. It's wrong. John chapter 1 verse 3, that's wrong. It's just mistranslated. Well have you ever learned Greek? Do you have Greek? So anyway, thanks for calling today Melody. It's been enjoyable talking to you. I hope I've answered your questions. Yeah, thank you for the information. Okey dokey, bye bye. and uh... we have been talking about the mormon church today and uh... i hope i've been able to make uh... it clear folks once again uh... upon the uh... Up on the website, www.aomin.org, www.aomin.org. And I've enjoyed sitting in for Dr. White today and hope to probably be back in the next couple of weeks to do another show. So take care. We'll see you next week on The Dividing Line. The Dividing Line is a presentation of Alpha and Omega Ministries. You can contact us at 602-973-0318 or you can write us at P.O. Box 37106, Phoenix, Arizona 85069. We are easy to find on the World Wide Web at www.aomin.org. That's www.aomin.org. You can also find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates, and tracks on our website. Join us again next Saturday afternoon at 2 p.m. for The Dividing Line.