Alpha and Omega Ministries presents the Dividing Line radio broadcast. The Apostle Peter commanded all Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence. Your host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha and Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, you can call now by dialing 508-0960. That's 508-0960. And now, with today's topic, here's James White. And welcome to the Dividing Line radio broadcast. This is Rich Pierce filling in for James White. James is back in New York. We're really kind of hoping to hear from James today. He is in the process right now, I believe, of picking up his kids at the airport. Yes, take advantage of a little apologetics run out in New York and see if the family can't come up and enjoy a little vacation time. Very well deserved, I might add. And so we are in the midst of all that, hoping that James will call in during the program today. Thursday night, James debated Robert Syngenis, a Roman Catholic apologist, in the Great Debate Four. And the Great Debate Four, I think, was It had to be an excellent debate. Everybody involved in it was anticipating a lively time, if you will, and we're hoping to hear a report on that debate. It was on the mass, and we're really hoping that we can get an update on that. But today's topic, we are focusing on the person and work of Jesus Christ. In John 14, 6, Jesus Christ said, No man comes to the Father. but by me. I am the way, the truth, and the life." Now that's a very exclusive statement. That is, well... Darrell Bock Offensive. It's downright offensive if it's not true. It says there's only one way and he's it. And that's just all there is to it. But the question we have to ask today in today's program is who is Jesus Christ? We're going to focus on the person and work of Jesus Christ today. I want to recap a little bit from last week before we get started though. One of the callers that called in asked a question about the Bible. And the question was, why should I believe in your, and as he put it, in the King James Version of the Bible over these other scriptures that I've got? And again, we are focusing on the Mormon Church in these three programs. And one of the things I wish I would have said at the time, I thought about it later, was that the Bible It is the fundamental document that defines the Christian faith. You see, we don't know what it means to be a Christian outside the Bible. We don't know about Christianity outside of the Bible. And so it is the foundation, foundational documentation for what it means to be a Christian. And that's what's the most important part of that. Darrell Bock Also I think it's important that, and we pointed this out last week, that the Mormon, and we're talking about Mormonism obviously, the Mormon does give a certain amount of authority to the Bible. Now he wants to draw the line at a certain point and he sees errors and mistakes in the Bible, but we need to understand that in this limited scope. Christianity versus Mormonism. We're dealing with a book that both sides give a certain amount of authority to. We give it the ultimate authority, the ultimate rule. We refer to it as canon for the life of the Christian, but the Mormon does recognize it. By the way, folks, I am joined today by Mike Munoz again, who has been with us on previous programs, and we are also joined today by Mr. Benny Diaz. He is a former vice president of Alpha and Omega Ministries. He has, oh, a long list of kudos. We could go on and on with them. But I do want to mention here we are having some technical difficulties with our mic 3 that Mike Munoz is talking on, and I want him to swing that mic around. It's off right now. And bring over this mic that's over here. Because that mic, when you talk on it, Mike, it kind of fades in and out. Go ahead and stretch it to yourself a little bit there. I'm going to go ahead and pop it on, and I think we'll do a lot better with that. The question that we're asking in this series of discussions – it's kind of a roundtable that we're doing on The Dividing Line – the question that we're asking is kind of a rhetorical tongue-in-cheek a little bit. Are Christians Mormons? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints takes great offense when we of the Christian faith deny that members of the Mormon Church are actually Christian. Well, of course we're Christians, the Mormon person says. I mean, the name of Jesus is even in the name of our church. How can we not be Christians? Since we have answered that question so many times before, we thought it would be interesting to reverse the question. Perhaps some folks will be able to see the logic of what we're saying if we ask the question, are all Christians Mormons? I imagine that the Mormon Church would take extreme umbrage to my claiming to be a Mormon. I don't believe that God was once a man. I don't believe in eternal progression. I don't believe in human pre-existence. I reject the idea that Jesus has not eternally been God. I don't I don't believe that Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer. I don't believe in the teachings of the Mormon Church about salvation. I don't believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet, nor do I believe that Gordon B. Hinckley is a prophet. I don't believe that the Book of Mormon is Scripture, nor do I accept the Doctrine and Covenants or the Pearl of Great Price. In other words, I reject just about every main doctrine of the Mormon Church and believe teachings that are completely different. I believe that there is one true God who has eternally been God. I believe that Jesus has eternally been that God. That Jesus created all things. That salvation is by grace and not works. that joseph smith was a false prophet as is gordon b hinkley and i accept only the bible as the word of god but really now does that make any difference can't i still call myself a mormon let's look at all the similarities between a mormon and me Mormons love their families. I love mine, too. Mormons are moral people. So am I. Mormons support their church. I do, too. Mormons attend their church regularly. They take part in the activities of their church and support their leadership. I do, too. In fact, on the outside, I look a lot like a Mormon. I frequently wear white shirts and dark ties or blue or gray suits. So why can't I be called a Mormon? Well, the answer to that is obvious. I don't believe what the Mormon Church teaches, so I can't be a Mormon, and to represent myself as a Mormon is deceptive and wrong. Anyone can see that simply because one looks like a Mormon does not necessarily mean that one is a Mormon. The exact same thing can be said concerning the Mormon Church's claim to be a Christian church. Does Mormonism believe what Christianity teaches? No. Mormons don't believe what Christians believe, so why should they call themselves Christians? Christians believe that there is only one God. Mormons believe that there are many gods. That alone is enough to separate completely Mormonism and Christianity. Now, it is true some Mormons look a lot like Christians, talk like Christians, act like Christians, etc., etc. But does that make them Christians when they believe the exact opposite of what Christianity teaches? Of course not. This is why we spend so much time comparing and contrasting the teachings of the Mormon Church with that of the Bible, when they are not The Bible and Christianity, many Mormons actually think that their doctrines are taught in the Bible when they're not. And many others who are not LDS can be easily confused by the presentation made by the LDS Church. These folks may not be aware of the real teachings of the Mormon Church, and they may be deceived into thinking that Mormon doctrine is actually Christian doctrine. When the Mormons present themselves as Christians, they are doing the very same thing as if I were to present myself as a Mormon. and that is deceptive. Now remember, by saying that Mormonism is not Christian, we're not saying that all LDS people are therefore immoral, unkind, mean, or nasty. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Most Mormons I know personally are kind, moral, sensitive, and very sincere individuals. But simply being kind and sincere moral and sensitive does not make you a Christian. Many Hindus are kind and sincere, but few would call them Christians. The same must be said of the members of the Mormon Church." Now I want to go back to our focus for today's program. Who is Jesus Christ? Now according to the Mormon Church, I'm looking at right now, I've got in my hand a pamphlet that was published, this version of it was published in 1976, it was republished in 1972, and it is called, What the Mormons Think of Christ. And I think folks, if you're Christians out there, Bible-believing Christians, and you've not understood Mormonism that much, this is going to be an enlightening program for you. If you're wanting to reach out to Mormon friends and relatives and understand how to talk to them and where the real of what needs to be said to them is You're gonna hear it today because who Jesus Christ is is foundational one of the things I wanted to mention to to the Christian faith we have a threefold core of faith the first issue is the one we dealt with last week, who God is. That is the very foundation of the faith. If we were to look at this like a structure, the scriptures use that kind of analogy, the analogy of a builder, many times. Who God is, is the very foundation of our faith. Who Jesus Christ is, is the chief cornerstone of the Christian faith. and what salvation is represents the structure of that faith. And so those are the three topics we're focusing on over this three-week period, and who Jesus Christ is and where we're going. You know, Rich, I was just thinking of something, but just to kind of bring what you just said together, in John 17, 3, and this is Jesus speaking, he says, this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, in Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. So what you just said, those three foundational things in Christianity, Jesus brings those three together. To know God is to know Jesus Christ, and that is to have eternal life. And consequently, it's very important for us to ask that question over and over and over again. Who is Jesus Christ? Because as we look at Mormonism and we look at the Christian faith and the foundational beliefs about Christ, we're going to find and discover that the Jesus Christ of Mormonism is quite different, foundationally different, than the Christian faith. So big deal. So there's a different Jesus taught in Mormonism. Well, I'm reminded of what our Lord said where he commended those and also condemned those. He said, unless you believe that I am he, you shall die in your sins. We have to have faith in the right Jesus, for a false Jesus cannot provide salvation. Darrell Bock Well, do Christians and Mormons really believe different things about this issue, about who Jesus Christ is and how they define him? I'm reading from this pamphlet, page 24, What Mormons Think of Christ. and under the topic of firstborn son of god i want to read christ is the firstborn obviously he did not have this distinction as pertaining to his birth into mortality for many millions preceded him in birth upon this earth it must not be forgotten however little the doctrine is known and believed in the christian world that all men lived in a premortal estate before they were born into this world. All were born in the premortal existence as the spirit children of the Father, and Christ was the firstborn spirit child. And from that day forward he has had preeminence in all things." So the first and foremost thing as we get back, right back to what we were talking about last week, the law of eternal progression. and in the pre-existence jesus christ is described here as the first born son of elohim you know the god that was uh... he lived on another planet according to orson pratt he was redeemed from that other planet therefore he was once a sinner he uh... became a god in uh... the law of eternal progression and he came here and he began populating or procreating spirit children how physical beings can do that, I have no idea, but he began procreating spirit children, and the very first spirit son, I don't know if he had daughters before that, but the first spirit son was Jesus Christ. And so that's the first and foremost thing that they're saying, is that he is the literal firstborn son of God. Secondly, well, Rich, just another real quick comment. I think that, not to repeat last week's show, but just what you've read so far drives us back to what is absolutely foundational to Christianity, and that is the concept of monotheism. Here, O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one. There's only one God. In Isaiah 44, God, who is omniscient, says, I know of no other gods. And if you get that foundational issue wrong, then you're going to continue to be wrong when we move on to the issue of Jesus Christ. Darrell Bock So at first step with Jesus Christ, we've already taken a step off the path of what the Bible presents to us about the nature of God. It's inevitable. I mean, you look at the Mormon teaching about Jesus Christ being one God of many gods. You also find that they teach clearly that he is a spirit brother of Lucifer, also known as Satan. And as you said, not begotten here on earth by God the Father, but he was begotten by natural means, where the Father and Mary engaged in relations in order to have Christ. And this is not what we, the Christian faith, hold from what the Bible teaches with regard to the immaculate conception, if I may. okay uh... secondly he is the spirit brother lucifer now this is an interesting concept here uh... the the concept that He is actually, what trips me out, and this is why I'm even stuttering, Mormons will refer to Jesus Christ as their elder brother. And this is the thing that usually kind of surprises Christians, is they don't really pick up on it. There is a great deal of meaning behind that. If you consider the fact that in the Law of Eternal Progression, Jesus Christ is the firstborn spirit child of Elohim, Well, that means there's other spirit children. That's where we came from, folks. That's right. Elohim has had millions and billions of spirit children with his many wives that became goddesses when he came here with them. And he has begat children. And so they literally mean that Jesus is our elder brother when they talk about him in that regard. And I do want to invite, as we discuss this topic, I want to invite Mormons, I want to invite Bible-believing Christians, call in with your questions as we discuss this. This is a live talk radio program and we want to hear from you at 508-0960. That's 508-0960. Richard, if I may, I think it's important to remember at this point that Scripture teaches, number one, that Jesus was uncreated, but also that Jesus created all other things. And I was going to read a foundational text here, and that's found, if you've got your Bibles handy, in John 1, starting in verse 1. And it says, in the beginning was the word. And the word was with God and the word was God. Now that's foundational for a couple different things. The phrase in the beginning in the Greek takes us right back to Genesis chapter 1 verse 1. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And in the Hebrew heavens and the earth refer to the entirety of the universe. Whatever you see, whatever there is, God created it. So in the beginning, Jesus already was. And the Greek text is very specific. In the beginning, Jesus was already existing. In other words, he existed prior to the beginning of what we understand as matter-time-space existence. Jesus was already there. He was face-to-face with God, is the idea of the Greek, and he was God. Now, as Christians, we interpret that passage in light of the concept of monotheism found throughout the Scriptures. And then it goes on in verse 2. All things through him were created, and apart from him nothing that exists, nothing that has being, came into existence. That's verse 3 of the passage. Benny, you wanted to say something? Well, you know, Colossians 1 continues that thought and that truth. Let's hold this thought a second here, guys, because you bring up an excellent point. Yet in Mormon thought, and I'm going to reiterate this quotation from last week when Joseph Smith in the King Follett funeral discourse says, I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ to be a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a spirit. These three constitute three distinct personages and three gods. So you have a direct denial of what you're talking about, Mike, and that is that Jesus Christ was that God who did that creating in Genesis. Joseph Smith is saying, no, they're separate gods. Right, and yet Jesus, in John 5.58, and this came up, or no, it didn't come up last week, but in John 5.58, Jesus said that before Abraham was, I am. in the Greek egoimi, which mirrors all the I am statements found in Isaiah where Jehovah in the Old Testament, or Yahweh depending on how you want to pronounce that, constantly reiterates, I am God. There is no other. I know of no other. Constantly that monotheism reverberates in the Old Testament. It is assumed by the Hebrew authors of the New Testament. It is found in the New Testament as well. And in light of that In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And further down in the passage, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." The passage is clearly talking about the person of Jesus Christ. Darrell Bock Well, it's interesting because we're already finding quite the variance between the systems. And I think with this next quotation we're going to find that the variance goes even further. uh... from this is from gospel through the ages by milton are hunter and really where he is tapping from as he does these descriptions uh... you'll you'll ask the question where is this guy get this stuff well he's drawing from the king fall funeral discourse this thing if you read it folks is lengthy joseph smith covered some serious ground and and came up with a concept so incredibly foreign to what historical Christianity had presented before that. Darrell Bock And I think it's important to remind our listeners that although the King Follett discourse is not one of the standard works, Mormons have admitted, and most Mormons that you will run into will gladly admit, that it has become foundational for the church. It has been repeated and quoted so often by the Mormon prophet. speaking as prophet, that you can't deny that this is foundational to Mormon theology. Well, here's the quote from Milton R. Hunter, Gospel Through the Ages, page 15, He was called Lucifer. Son of the morning, haughty, ambitious, and covetous of power and glory, this spirit brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the savior of mankind. At the great council, he proposed a new plan of salvation, one which was not passed. based on eternal truth. And so within that quote, we see Jesus Christ talked about as a spirit brother of Lucifer. We have Don in Mesa on the line, and let's go ahead and bring him up with his question. Hi Don, how are you today? Just fine. I listened to a couple of minutes last week, and I happened to have it on again, and I noticed you were on, and I'm not sure I understand your concept of of God. Last week you talked about Lord in caps, and you know, Lord being Jehovah, and Lord being Elohim. No, no, God being Elohim. Okay, God being Elohim. Right, right. So you have all throughout the Old Testament terms like, and the Lord God said. The personal name for God is Yahweh, or Jehovah, and the description of His being is God. Now, who do you maintain, according to the Bible, created the earth or the world's really as the bible used to say uh... the lord god which one the one true god there is only one well yahweh now what about elohim who is he don don you need to understand in scripture that's the same god for instance you heard me refer to the shema uh... hero israel the lord is our god okay literally yahweh is our elohim in other words you're saying that when uh... when uh... jesus was baptized The father said, this is my son in whom I am well pleased. Hear him. Now who was talking? Should he have said, this is me and who I am well pleased? No, what he said was right on target. Now we're getting into issues of God's triune nature, and that you have the person of the Father, the person of the Son, and the person of the Holy Spirit. These three persons make up the one being who is God. One being. See, he has to talk about the other He's one being, but he's talking about somebody else. He's tripersonal. So three persons, one God. And when he says to his disciples, be ye one, even as my Father in heaven and I are one, How does that work? That's very good English. That's John chapter 17, and you need to understand, I think I could develop this thought if we had time throughout the Gospel of John, that he is referring to one in purpose, one in mission. And see, you need to understand, in the Christian concept of God in the Trinity, the authors of Scripture can go back and forth speaking of Christ's divine nature in one moment, and in the next moment speaking of God's human nature. I understand that. When they say that we don't, and I am a Mormon, that we don't put the Bible as the first, you know, the first book that we do, real quickly, and I know I'm taking the time here, but last week you mentioned that, you know, we say that the Bible is, as far as it is translated correctly. As an airline pilot, when I fly around to different motels, I pull the Bible out and I find a Gideon Bible 20 years old that says, you know, in Christ, In other words, God created the world through Christ. Worlds, plural, in 1st Hebrews and 11th Hebrews also. And then later, I noticed that a little retranslation there. Now it becomes world, because people can't comprehend that there are more than one world out there. And then the third one is, now they're using universe. Now this is a retranslation, as far as I'm concerned. No, not at all. What language is the Bible written in, Don? Well, it was in Greek. The New Testament was in Greek and the Old Testament was in Hebrew. There's some Aramaic in there. But the point is that the King James is a translation of the original language. So what we need to understand as Americans is that God didn't write the Bible in English. English didn't exist. And all we're talking about is synonyms in language. The meaning hasn't changed. You're simply talking about an updating of the translations, but there's no re-translating or re-modifying or anything like that. Scholars go right back to the original language for their source as they translate the scriptures into our present-day linguistics. Correct, and it's amazing how many different words that they've put in there over the last hundred years. But the meanings do not change. You ask anybody what world means and what universe means and you're going to get an entirely different answer. You know, definition of universe. But Don, let me say something. First of all, on the surface, I agree with you. I accept the Bible as the Word of God insofar as it is translated correctly. And I agree that you can pick up different versions of the Bible and get a different take on it. But you see, you could also go and you can learn the Hebrew, you can learn the Greek, or even if you don't learn the Hebrew or the Greek, there are helps out there where you can research terms used in the Bible, research their Greek meanings, and understand the concept there. Yeah, but that's not what we're talking about. You said, you know, the Bible is... It's just as it has been, and it's been re-translated. There's no question about that. What do you mean when you say re-translated? Well, obviously, when they take worlds and then make it world, and then they make it universe, that's different. That means something different to other people. But in essence, is it not speaking of what the Greek word kosmos would be referring to, where we get the word kosmos? Well, you know, very possible. That's true. Okay, but the point is, is that... Don, can I ask just real fast, what verse are you referring to in Hebrews? Hebrews 1-2? uh... it's first i don't have it when the scriptures here at the first chapter and then it's also in the eleventh chapter when he says the word through faith uh... created the world plural world the only other question i have is when you say moses baked a god face-to-face and jacob i believe there's something in there he spoke to god face-to-face he wrestled with god we say they say that they've never seen god nobody can see god i don't understand where you come from here i think to me the bible is very clear Very clear. When it talks about you must be born of water. Is it clear when it says that there is only one true God? Yeah. Do you believe that there is only one true God, Don? One true God in all of the universe, in all of creation, in anything and everything that is out there. No, because it doesn't say that. Yes it does, but it does. It says, I am, my Father and I are one, even as you and I are one. Isaiah 43.10, Isaiah 43.10, before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I even I am the Lord, and beside me there is no Savior. Don, we'd like you to hold on the line if we could. We've got to take a break real quick, and we'd like to hope to talk to you a little bit more. we're gonna be back with the dividing line right after this and welcome back to the dividing line my name is rich pierce i am sitting in for doctor white as he is out in new york uh... gallivanting around actually i think he's having a little fun today perhaps uh... going to see the statue of liberty with the kids and other places they do keep him busy over there so they like to reward him on his days off And I guess that's why we haven't heard from him yet. I do know that probably as we speak I'm looking at the clock. He's probably picking up his kids They were due in to LaGuardia at 430 and so they're gonna have some fun today well-deserved in my mind We are talking about the person of Jesus Christ today And we are talking about the Mormon Church and its teachings regarding the central doctrines of the faith We have Don on the line with us and we're back for the second hour of the second half hour of the program Don I believe one of the other questions you had had had to do with Moses. Well no I'm just stating that there is Moses saw God face to face in the King James Version that I've seen and I believe Jacob something about Jacob also. Right, Jacob had wrestled with God. Well, he wrestled with Him, but also something about face-to-face with Him. I think it's important in the Moses passage, it's not that he saw God's face-to-face, but that God spoke to Moses as if to a man face-to-face. It says to me, when I read that, it says he saw Him face-to-face. And I still don't understand why someone would have to say This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear ye him. Don, let me read you a passage, and I'd like for you to interpret that for us. It's in Isaiah chapter 44, verses 6 and 7. Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts, I am the first, I am the last, and there is no God besides me. Do not tremble and do not be afraid. Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? Or is there any other rock? I know of none." Now, even if we want to get away from other universes and other gods that might be out there, even in this universe, according to Mormonism, the Father is a God, Jesus is a God, and the Holy Spirit is a God. Now, how do you interpret this passage when God, when Jehovah God says, I know of no other God? Well, I'd interpret that as being that, yes, Jehovah, or Yahweh, is the God of this earth. However, you know, there's other places in the Bible that says, ye are all gods. And it says that Christ will inherit all that his Father has, and we can be part of that inheritance. Well, there's a difference between an inheritance and we're talking about the nature of being here when it comes to God. That's the primary focus here is what is the nature or the essence of what makes God God? Is he by nature a human being that has been exalted? Or is he, as he says in Hosea 11.9, for I am God and not man, the Holy One in the midst of thee. Is he a different order of being? Well, of course he's not man. It's just like the Jehovah Witnesses explained to me The way we talk about baptism for the dead, well, that means that they're baptizing those who have lost the faith, instead of the fact that Christ is very explicit about baptism as a necessity. He was baptized himself. He had no reason to be baptized, other than the fact that he said, to fulfill all things. Correct, Don, but you would admit that baptism is of no use if you believe in a false god. We would both agree that Jehovah's Witnesses believe in a false concept of God, a false concept of Christ. Well, I'm not going to say anything bad about Jehovah's Witnesses. I think they're just confused and misconstrued with some of the ideas that they have, the same as I feel that you are. I feel that you have ears and you're not hearing. You have eyes that you're not seeing, and you're a well-educated man, obviously. Right, but you know, you really haven't answered my question on how Jehovah God in the Old Testament can say, I know of no other God. Even if you want to limit it to this earth, which the passage doesn't say, you're reading that into the text. Okay, we both have our presuppositions. I admit that, but if you think that's the idea of the text, you're reading it into the text. No where in the text does it say... I really do believe that there's possibly people who didn't understand the scriptures, the scribes, the priests and those who were translating that may have not been able to understand the concept. Otherwise, why is it in there that it says, ye are all God? Well, it's not saying that you're all gods, per se, Don. First of all, Jesus is – well, Mike, you've got the passage there? Yeah, well, what you're referring to is what Jesus says in John chapter 10. Jesus says, I and the Father are one. The Jews pick up stones because they want to stone him. Jesus says, now wait a second. I'm paraphrasing obviously. Why do you want to stone me? Why do you want to stone me for saying that I am God when in the Old Testament God refers to the people he's talking as your gods? Jesus is referring to Psalm 82. Let me read that rapidly for you. God takes his stand in his own congregation. He judges in the midst of the rulers. How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Vindicate the weak and the fatherless. Do justice to the afflicted and destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy. Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked. They do not know, nor do they understand. They walk about in darkness. All the foundations of the earth are shaking. I said, ye are gods, and all of your sons are the most high. Nevertheless, you will die like men and fall like any one of the princes." God is speaking to the rulers of the Jews who, because they interpreted the law and applied and maintained the law for the people, You could refer to them in a religious sense as Elohims because they were serving God, but he makes it very clear that they are men, they will die like men. But not only that, he's talking to humans then living. And in Mormon theology, humans on earth right now are not gods. And yet that's the context both in Psalm 82 and John 10 when God refers to these people as gods. He's speaking to men who will die like men. Okay, well, thank you, Don. We've got to move on and get another, move on with the topic here. We are talking about Jesus Christ and the person and work of Jesus Christ, and we're focusing on the teachings of the Mormon Church and what they teach about Christ. Just to introduce, we'll get back into our conversation, the roundtable here, gentlemen. In talking about the concept of Jesus Christ as Mormons view him, we have just covered the ground that he is the spirit brother of Lucifer, that he is the spirit brother of us all. So by nature, Jesus Christ is of the same to use a Greek term or essence as as a man by by nature and I think it's important for us to discuss the issue of what Christians believe about Jesus Christ's essence and being what does he mean when he says to the scribes if you've seen me you've seen the father How are we to understand that? You know, Benny brought up a passage just a little while ago, and I was going to see if I could redirect him there. Colossians 1, verse 15. Do you want to comment on that one? Because I think that fits. Not only does it fit because of what we're talking about, but the creation of angels is spoken of in this passage, okay? The creation of spirits, the creation of that which is visible and invisible is dealt with in this passage. So, did you want to comment on that? Oh, the profanity of this passage, Mike, you know, in verse 13 it states that He delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins, and He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. What's profound is what follows. For by Him, and speaking of Christ, all things were created both in the heavens and on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions, rulers or authorities, all things have been created by Him, Jesus, and for Him, Jesus. And He, Jesus, is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. That eliminates any created thing, whether angels, Lucifer, planets, worlds, stars, from having an existence outside of the work of Christ. Man, absolutely. I think we need to comment, because often you will hear the objection, and I'm curious how you might respond to that, Benny. The text says firstborn, and isn't that what Mormons teach, that Jesus was the firstborn spirit child? Does that connotate that he is a begotten being? And of his nature is he a created being. I think we have a disadvantage in that we have we use the English language which I prefer to speak. However in what the language that Paul spoke of there he uses is an interesting term prototic us that term is translated best by us as the firstborn. And first thing that comes to our mind as Jehovah's Witnesses I've spoken to is first created or someone who was first given birth. in the sense of a human birth. And that is far from the meaning of that term. The term prototokos has its meaning in being chief of inheritance. Someone who is superior of all creation. And outside of that you see other places where not prototokos necessarily but the idea of firstborn Jews. Of Israel in the Old Testament who is called the firstborn when they weren't really the first born. They were chief of inheritance. Let me give you some background in Exodus. And what we need to understand is prototokos, and Benny, you're absolutely right, it can be used of a firstborn child. In fact, it's used that way in Luke, I believe it's chapter 2 or chapter 3, in reference to Jesus as Mary's firstborn son. So it can have that literal meaning. What we need to understand is there is a much richer background in the Hebrew Scriptures concerning that term. For instance, in Exodus 4.22, Then you shall say to Pharaoh, and this is God speaking, then you shall say to Pharaoh, thus says the Lord, Israel is my firstborn. Again we find in Jeremiah 31 verse 9, with weeping they will come, and by supplication I will lead them. I will make them walk by streams of water, on a straight path in which they will not stumble. For I am the Father of Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Again, in Psalm 89, 27, I shall make him, referring to the coming Messiah, notice, I will make him, the coming Messiah, my firstborn. And then he defines what he means by firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth. In Hebrews chapter 1 verse 6, and when he again brings the firstborn into the world, he says, and let all the angels of God worship him. And yet in Luke chapter 4 verse 6, Jesus answered to the Pharisees, it is written, you shall worship the Lord your God and serve him only. And we're talking about the person and work of Jesus Christ today in contrast to the Mormon church and their teachings. We'll be right back. You're listening to The Dividing Line. The phone lines are now open at 508-0960. That's 508-0960. Please call, because the more my husband talks now, the less he'll talk when he gets home. Well, he's not getting to talk much today, because I'm Rich Pierce. I'm substitute hosting for James White this week, as well as next week. And I think we're having a lot of fun. I just wanted to clear something up. We were only gone for an oh-no second, correct? That last advertisement there? Yeah, that's hilarious. We can't sit in this studio and listen to that spot and not laugh. That is hilarious. Rich, if I could just real quickly finish up on what we were talking about. Okay, but before you do that, I want to invite callers to give us a call. This is our last segment of the program. It goes real fast. 508-0960. 508-0960. The next caller online that gets on the air is going to get a free copy of James White's book, Letters to a Mormon Elder. So give us a call now. Real quick, I want to introduce something here, as we're talking about firstborn, as we're talking about prototokos, an additional concept of Mormon thought that even expands the consequences here of what we're talking about. This is from, I believe this is Brigham Young, it's from Journal of Discourses, volume 4, page 218. When the time came that his firstborn, the Savior, should come into the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came himself and favored that spirit with the tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Savior was begotten by the Father of his spirit by the same being who is the Father of our spirits, and that is all the organic difference between Jesus Christ and you and me." Now, there's three or four more quotes here that I've got that we are not going to have time to get into today. We're running out of time and we've got a lot of ground to cover still yet. But the significance of that quote, folks, is if you don't quite put together, Mormon Church denies the virgin birth. Now they may make arguments that they believe in the virginity of Mary. But the miracle of the virgin birth is that she was a virgin at the time of the birth not conception. And so that's the the major impact of that. So but Mike let's let's continue to talk about Prakata prototypes and firstborn. Okay, I was going to comment, though, that what you just brought up about the way that Mary conceived flies in the face of Scripture in Matthew 1.18. Now, the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows. When Mary's mother had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with a child by the Holy Spirit. It was the Holy Spirit coming upon Mary. I've got a quote in here where Joseph Smith, actually maybe Brigham Young, I'm not sure who the source is, it was one of the two, where he outright denies that the Holy Spirit did this. It's an amazing quote because he basically draws the conclusion that otherwise we'd be calling Jesus the Son of the Holy Spirit. Right, and picking up on Don's language or earlier caller, the passage that I had read in Luke seems rather clear to me, a very straightforward language. But back to the idea of prototokos. You take all of that background information from the Hebrew Scriptures, and the idea of prototokos is sovereignty over. Jesus Christ is the firstborn over all creation, before all creation, because Jesus Christ is sovereign over creation. Now why is Jesus sovereign over creation? The passage goes on and tells us why. He's sovereign over creation because he created all things. All things in the Greek, tapanta. That Greek term, unless it is somehow qualified by something else in the context, literally means, the English translation, all things, whether visible, invisible. And then he lays out the angelic world, rulers, authorities, powers, dominions. All things have been created by Jesus Christ, by him, for him, through him, and all things in him hold together. nothing came into being that has come into being and our caller even alluded to Hebrews 1, 2 when he would try to talk about world versus worlds. The word there is not necessarily cosmos but it's aionon. And in the last days it speaks of that God has spoken to us in his son whom he appointed heir of all things. Again here has an idea of inheritance and through whom also he made the world, the aion. And it's clear Christ is the creator. Absolutely, and I think that if anyone is doubting the concept of prototokos as referring to sovereignty over firstborn of all creation, let me just give you something that's somewhat similar, completely different word but somewhat similar. In Isaiah chapter 9 verse 6 it says, For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us, and the government will rest on his shoulders, and his name will be called Wonderful. wonderful counselor, mighty God, eternal father, prince of peace. Now it's often come up that how could Jesus Christ be eternal father? Well, if you go to the Hebrew, the Hebrew is very clear. Literally what it says is father of eternity. Okay? Aviad. Father of eternity. The idea there is that Jesus Christ, this son, this future son that is going to be born, is sovereign over eternity. He is sovereign over eternity because he is creator of all things. Nothing has come into existence, like the Apostle John says, that has come into existence apart from the work of Jesus Christ. One of the things that we are going to get into next week is the issue of salvation, and one of the biggest issues or impacts on that subject is the issue of the blood atonement of Jesus Christ. When we talk about the blood atonement of Christ, we are speaking specifically about the fact that when Jesus Christ died on the cross, And his blood was shed for us. He paid the penalty. He, as the Christian church teaches, was the substitutionary atonement. He took our place on that cross and he paid the penalty so that we could be, or are, saved. It is an act of grace. And Mormon thought, and we're going to get into it next week, but the The Jesus of Mormonism does not teach that his blood can cleanse from all sin, and that flies in the face of 1 John 1.7, where it specifically says that his blood, the blood of Jesus, cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 2.2, he's the propitiation not only of our sins, but of the sins of the whole world. He is the absolute and complete satisfaction. I am looking forward to next week to get into this topic of the atonement. Yeah, it's going to be fun. One thing that I want to get into is some experience, and Don kind of used the tactic just a little bit when he called in. I call this some of the slippery arguments. If you notice, we are very clear. Joseph Smith, when we presented the idea, or from the King Follett funeral discourse last week, is very clear on his polytheism. He did not want to be mistaken. He was saying that the Christian church's teaching about there is only one true God, the historical trinity idea, is all heresy. He was separating himself totally, and he was saying they're all wrong, and I'm going to prove they're wrong, and he outright states there's three different gods. Who can contradict it, he says? Okay? When we asked Don directly the question, is there one God, he agreed, or he tried to agree, or tried to find a way to be in continuity. Folks, I've been doing this since 1986, and one of the things that I've found that has really started up in the last, oh, five or six years, is what I call the Mormon Church's propaganda tool, plausible deniability. And what they're trying to make themselves look different than they have in the past. What that's about is this. The Mormon Church, as we read last week, has exceeded 10 million members worldwide. They are on the verge of becoming a world religion. And that's what they want to be. They want to grow beyond that mark, way beyond that mark. And when they walk around saying, we are the only true church on earth today, when they walk around, quoting from Joseph Smith's first vision, where God the Father says of Christians that all their creeds are an abomination in His sight, and all their professors are corrupt, Those kinds of phrases are not going to win them points. And so I want to talk about a book, and we're going to talk about it some more next week, a book that came out a couple of years ago. In fact, James White's book, Is the Mormon My Brother?, was kind of a response to this book. And I think some evangelicals got shanghaied with this book by some Mormons. And his co-wrote, it's called How Wide the Divide. and his co-wrote by uh... craig blomberg of denver seminary uh... and steven robinson who is a mormon he's formally uh... teaching at b y u i believe he's on sabbatical or was but uh... steven robinson uh... represents himself as an orthodox mormon And yet, they have these joint conclusions in this book, and these joint conclusions I find extremely disturbing. When they're talking about Christ and the Trinity, it says that both evangelicals and the LDS believe in the simultaneous oneness and threeness of God. Though evangelicals understand God's oneness as an ontological oneness of being, while the LDS understand it as a oneness of mind, will, and purpose. And folks, I have to tell you, This book, in the words of someone who's been doing Mormon evangelism for years, this book set Mormon evangelism back 20 years. And it obfuscates the lines that are sharply dividing that which biblical Christianity and our belief system is between that which Mormonism teaches and believes and the entire purpose of this book and the kinds of propaganda moves that they represent is to see if Mormons can't represent themselves as just another Christian denomination. We've been talking today about who Jesus Christ is in contrast to the Mormon Church. Thank you. Have a great weekend. See you next week. The Dividing Line is a presentation of Alpha and Omega Ministries. You can contact us at 602-973-0318 or you can write us at P.O. Box 37106, Phoenix, Arizona 85069. We are easy to find on the World Wide Web at www.aomin.org. That's www.aomin.org. You can also find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates, and tracks on our website. We hope you will join us again next Saturday afternoon at 1pm for The Dividing Line.