And extra police are being called in to prevent looting in abandoned communities. The Dow's down eight points. I'm Sal Giandrasso, Fox News Radio. Knowing the Truth with Pastor Kevin Bowling is a live call-in radio program providing doctrinal dialogue, cultural commentary, and insightful interviews with some of today's foremost Christian authors and leaders. Knowing the Truth is the outreach ministry of the Mountain Bridge Bible Fellowship located on Highway 25 in Traveler's Rest. The goal of the church and the radio program is to seek the glory of God in the salvation of sinners and the sanctification of the saints. by the Ministry of the Word. For more information, go to www.knowingthetruth.org. Here with today's edition of Knowing the Truth is Pastor Kevin Bowling. Hey, welcome into this edition of the Knowing the Truth radio broadcast. This is Pastor Kevin Bowling, and we're going to be talking today again about the subject of counseling, only from a little bit different perspective than we've been previously on the broadcast. You know, I've done a couple of interviews recently over the last couple of weeks with, first and foremost was with Randy Patton, who is the president of the National Association of New Thetic Counselors, And then just recently, just last week, I did another one, an interview with Dr. J. Adams. And I was speaking with Dr. Adams, of course, about his classic book, Competent to Counsel. And during today's broadcast, we're going to be speaking with David Paulson. And David Paulson has got a book out. It actually was published in 2003. But in this book that was published in 2003, Dr. Powelson talks—the title of the book, I should give you first and foremost, is The Scene with New Eyes. That's the title of the book, and it really combines a number of articles and thoughts about biblical counseling all together that Dr. Powelson has written over the years. You know, it's just a great book about seeing things through God's eyes. In fact, the subtitle of the book is Counseling and the Human Condition through the Lens of Scripture. This is a book put out by PNR Publishing. And let me give you their website right here at the top of the broadcast. So if you want to go out there and get a copy of this book, you know, you can then do so. Go out and look. They actually publish about nine titles. from Dr. Paulsen and let me give you that website it's www.prpbooks.com but now books is plural so it's www.prpbooks.com Presbyterian and Reform Publishing, prpbooks.com, and you can go out there and find out some more about the titles that they carry from Dr. Paulson. Let me give you a program note, too, at the top of the hour here before we go ahead and get Dr. Paulson on the line for the interview. The note that I wanted to leave you with was that I originally had said that I would do an interview with Dr. David Jeremiah on today's broadcast, but I moved that interview later so that we would be able to get the interview in today with Dr. David Paulson. He's actually going to be here in the Greenville-Spartanburg area on this weekend, and then also again, he's going to be here during the counseling conference that's taking place right here in Spartanburg, South Carolina, and that's going to be put on, of course, through the folks at the National Association of New Fetid Counselors, or NANC.org. And so they will be putting on that conference here next week, and David is going to be a part of that broadcast as well. I said broadcast, that's conference, I should say. Let me read to you just a little bit of a blurb that is located out on Discerning Reader. Discerning Reader is a website that is hosted by the folks at Tim Shelley's, does Discerning Reader. And he interviews or he does a lot of, you know, reviews of various books out there. Well, they reviewed David Paulson's book, and in David Paulson's book, they just did a great review out there. Let me read a little bit of that for you. And Paulson, it says this, Paulson organizes his thoughts into two parts. Scripture opens blind eyes, and then in the second portion, reinterpreting life. In part one, readers enjoy a biblical theology of biblical counseling from three books of scripture. First of all, the book of Ephesians, of Psalms, and Luke. And in part two, the readers benefit from a biblical psychology of biblical counseling. What is the nature of human nature, and why do we do what we do? And so that's how the book is organized. That's the structure of it. And with that in mind, I want to go ahead and welcome Dr. Paulsen into the radio program today. And then we can go ahead and get started in our discussion. Dr. Paulsen, thank you very much for taking time out of your busy schedule. I know you're preparing for the upcoming conference and you're also going to be speaking at Redeemer Presbyterian Church this Sunday. So thank you for taking the time out to be with me on today's Knowing the Truth radio broadcast. It's a pleasure, Kevin. Thank you for having me. I wanted to ask you about the title of this book to start with. It's an interesting title, Seen with New Eyes, and I thought maybe we could drill down just a little bit as to why that title? What are you trying to convey to your readers with a title like that? Yes. There's probably ten layers, but the two most obvious in my mind One is that there is a way of looking at life that God teaches Christians to look with. You might say that we are meant to look with His eyes. And His eyes, for example, the human heart is laid bare before Him, as Hebrews 4 says, and the issues in every human heart are issues of what do you believe? Who do you trust? What are you living for? God sees those issues and Scripture, His revelation in the power of His Spirit, teaches us to see how that kind of thing, that question about your core love, your core, where you take refuge, what you trust in, that that is going on in every single person's life all the time. And the second reference is that seeing with new eyes is a reference back towards our culture where all of the counseling models in our culture do not look with those eyes. You can go into Barnes & Noble or Borders and look at the huge self-help section and there won't be a single book that says, now let's look at what's ruling you that is not God, that is producing that particular destructive choice, destructive way of handling your relationships and so forth and so on. When I was talking to someone who's probably a good friend of yours and especially within the counseling genre of Christian writing, we were speaking with Dr. Jay Adams last week on the broadcast on Thursday, And we had talked a little bit about the idea of the sufficiency of Scripture, and we were lamenting that although people would acknowledge for a large part today, especially within professing Christianity, they would acknowledge the authority of Scripture, there seems to be a real problem with the subject of the sufficiency of Scripture. In other words, Christians feeling that in the Word of God they have all things that are necessary for life and godliness, as Peter puts it, and thus applying that word to every single aspect of their life. Do you agree that there's, you know, in expanding your statement there that you were just making about the types of books that we find, that there's a real dearth in the land about this idea of applying the Scriptures to life's daily problems? There is, and I think, you know, one of the aspects of that that's very significant is when you, as you say, you can believe in the authority of scripture, but authority for what? And most people who are Christians obviously will say, well, it's authoritative to reveal who God is, to reveal who Jesus Christ is, to reveal the way. The work of Christ on our behalf is mercy. But then they stop at saying that scripture would be sufficient for understanding what a human being is. when a human being is the image of God. So you can't understand a person without understanding God. And a human being is always relating to God, either the true God or turning from Him to a false God. And human beings are known by God. We are openly visible to Him. He sees all things. And we are accountable to Him. And we can be redeemed by Him. So in order to understand and transform a person's life, you have to understand us with respect to God. And that notion that scripture would be sufficient and authoritative for explaining human life has a lot less traction than the idea that, in a more vague sense, scripture has authority. I noticed that in your writing in this particular book, it does zero in, of course, as the subtitle tells us, it zeroes in on the nature of human nature. So I want to talk with you about that when we come back from the break. And to really, you know, let's start with a good working definition of what we feel human nature is, you know, what the nature of that is itself, to make a little play on words. And we'll do that when we come back from the break. Let me invite you to join the conversation, 1-888-660-WLFJ. We'll be right back. You're listening to Knowing the Truth with Pastor Kevin Bowling. For more information about today's program, the radio ministry, and the resources we offer, go to www.knowingthetruth.org. A compelling mix of ministry, public policy, lifestyle, and light-hearted fun on the phone. Janet Parshall's America. For a lot of people, they're scared to death. They'd rather go to the mission field than to bring any kind of spiritual influence into the workplace. And we know we're being truthful here. Why is that? We're excited to have her. She's Janet Parshall. And it's Janet Parshall's America. Right here, weekday afternoons from 2 to 5 on Christian Talk 660. Many people struggle with anger, depression, parenting, or even their marriage. 2 Timothy 3.16 tells us all scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness. Learn more at the National Association of New Thetic Counselors National Conference, October 5th through 7th in Spartanburg. You'll hear from nationally known speakers and authors like James McDonald, Jay Adams, and David Pallison. This year's pre-conference focuses on finances with Crown Financial Ministries Dr. Howard Dayton. Register online at nanc.org. That's n-a-n-c dot org. It's great pizza for a great price. So pack up the family and head over to Stevie B's, near Walmart on Woodruff Road in Greenville. At Stevie B's, you'll find friendly faces and at least a dozen pizzas out at all times. Or you can order a pizza, and they'll make it fresh just for you at no extra cost. So visit Stevie B's today. Hi, this is Pastor Kevin Bowling, and I want to take the time to thank John, Ruth, Carlos, and the good folks over there at Stevie B's Pizza for their support of the Knowing the Truth radio broadcast. More and more people are deciding to secure their family's safety by applying for a South Carolina concealed weapons permit. Dry Fire's class includes the NRA basic pistol course and state training requirements for a concealed carry permit. The class includes instruction from NRA certified instructors, info on South Carolina gun laws, the written exam, and qualifying with a firearm on the outdoor range. Register for South Carolina's concealed weapons permit class by calling 608-1522 or log on to dry-fire.com. Welcome back to Knowing the Truth with Pastor Kevin Bowling. Information regarding the resources referenced on today's program can be found at www.knowingthetruth.org. Now here to continue with today's program is Pastor Kevin Bowling. Hey, welcome back into the second portion of the Knowing the Truth radio broadcast. We're speaking with Dr. David Paulson and we're speaking with him about a book that he came out with a few years ago, but a book that is nevertheless extremely relevant in our day and age today. And specifically speaking with Dr. Paulson because he's going to be right here in the Greenville area. This weekend he's going to be speaking during the Sunday service over at Redeemer Presbyterian Church. It's an ARP church located out in Moore, South Carolina. I've got a link to that church on the blog for today. So if you go out to the knowingthetruth.org website, and then you click on the blog for today, it'll open up on Sermon Audio, and then you can click on the hyperlink that's in that blog and it'll take you to Redeemer Presbyterian Church's website. There you can find out directions to get there for Sunday. I want to visit with them on Sunday. And also, David's going to be in our area speaking over at the National Association of New Thetic Counselors Conference that's going to be held in Spartanburg on the 5th through the 7th of next week, Monday through Wednesday. And that link is also on the knowingthetruth.org website. You can go out there and click. There's still space available, I believe, for you to get into that conference. You don't want to miss it. There is $35. Is that what you're saying? No. What are you saying, Isaac? 35 spaces. I don't know what Isaac is saying. He's giving me a 35, but I have no idea. I'm sorry, I was going to say there's about 35 spaces left. I talked to Jim Patton the other day, so there's still room available, and they're actually taking walk-up as well. Okay, well good. There you go, 35 spaces. Hey, by the way, David Paulsen will be leading one of those workshops over there, How to Interact with Contemporary Psychological Theorists. Now, the other day when we were interviewing Dr. Jay Adams on the broadcast, the majority of the calls that came in dealt with the subject of psychology, about a number of churches that were trying to marry these two ideas together, you know, using biblical counseling, but also leaning heavily upon worldly psychology. Well, David Paulson is going to be teaching a session there in one of the workshops on Wednesday, October 7th, and his workshop is entitled, How to Interact with Contemporary Psychological Theorists. and also right after him there on October 7th as well, Bill Slattery, who is the pastor at Redeemer Presbyterian Church, he's going to be talking in one of those breakout sessions, the workshops as well, and his is entitled, The Role of Church Discipline in Counseling. So there's a lot, I think there's 60 different workshops that are available there. Believe me, one of these is going to be something that will well pay for the cost of attending the conference in your ministry. You don't want to miss it. We thank the Lord that they've decided to have this conference so close to us here, right here in Spartanburg, South Carolina. So don't miss it. You can go out to the website at www.knowingthetruth.org and click on the link there in order to find out all the information. Let me also tell you, you can participate in the program today in a number of ways. First is via the telephone. You can participate by just calling our toll-free number. That's 1-888-660-WLFJ. That's 1-888-660-9535. That's a toll-free number. It's good across the country. In fact, the other day, folks called from Florida, from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, from Chattanooga, Tennessee and then we had a couple outside the country as well from the UK as well as from Brazil that contacted us during the broadcast. So that's one way through the telephone. Also, Twitter is up and running. The account on Twitter is KnowingTheTruth, and I also have email up and running, and you can contact me at Kevin at KnowingTheTruth.org. That's Kevin at KnowingTheTruth.org. And in all of those ways, we will go ahead and try to get you in on the conversation today with our special guest, Dr. David Powelson. Dr. Powelson, back to our discussion as we're talking about today, I wanted to zero in in the book. You know, you talk about the human condition through the lens of Scripture. Let's just, if we could, obviously most of our listeners I think are familiar with what the Bible has to say about the human condition, but at least let's have a little bit of a working definition, if you will, before we launch into some of the more in-depth portion of your book. Okay. Again, the question you've asked, actually, there are numerous extremely fat books that have been written on this, so whatever I say is just a snapshot, but put into a snapshot, I would say that We are made for life, and we are made to love, to love God, to love each other. The human condition, the human plight, is that we are trending towards death, and we are selfish. And so that, you could call it that double evil of our sins and our sufferings is the thing that besets every human being. There's a passage in Ecclesiastes 9.3 that says, this is the evil in everything that happens under the sun, that there's one fate for all. And the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil, and there's madness in their hearts while they live, and then they die. And that word evil is used in the Bible as in English, both for the things that come up from us that are morally evil, and the things that touch us that are bad, that are evil, that are dark. And that condition, and then the restoration back to life, and a life that is characterized increasingly by love for God and others, the gospel of our Christ is under that transformation. You zero in in the opening chapter, or the opening section, I should say, part one of this blog. You zero in on a couple of specific passages of Scripture. You zero in first and foremost on Ephesians. In fact, the chapter is entitled Council Ephesians. What verse do you go to there? What are you looking to get to in the book of Ephesians specifically? And then I wanted to talk about some of the other ways that you use the book of Ephesians as well. Sure. What I'm trying to get at there is answering a question that arises. I suspect for every thoughtful Christian who wants to help others, wants to minister effectively, wants to use scripture in a way that is helpful is the Bible is a fat book with a lot of things in it and lots I don't know. Where do I start? So I make the case in that chapter that in a pinch, and as a good starting point, you could do it all from Ephesians. Again, it doesn't negate the fact that we have a scripture with many, many other chapters in it, but you've got to start somewhere. Ephesians is one of those books of the Bible that gives you the big picture and then it ropes it down to earth into some very specific things about how we live, how we treat people, our primary relationships. You find that the truth is revealed about God and about human beings. Ephesians touches, you might say, it touches all the notes. I'm wanting to give people, one, a vision for lifelong learning, that Scripture becomes more and more part of how we minister, just as it becomes part of how we grow, but then also giving people something very practical, like, let's start with this one book, and let's see and think together about how this would apply. It's interesting that you go to Ephesians to do that. We had just finished up in our church. I was doing an expository study through the book of James, and we just finished with James. And of course, James is an extremely practical book, you know, talking about a diagnostic book, testing the legitimacy of a person's profession of faith. But when I think about Ephesians, I think about Ephesians in such lofty terms, you know, really talking about these heavenly concepts associated with the Word of God, with the theology of God Himself. And yet, even in a book like that, where a lot of doctrine concerning theology proper, the study of God and who He is and His attributes and those types of things, It really does go from doctrine to deeds, doesn't it? As we understand the important doctrines of the scripture, they help us to live our daily life. You know, Ephesians goes from before the foundation of the world. That's about as lofty as you can get. And yet it goes then to things like, let every single word out of your mouth be constructive, timely, and grace-giving. that's about as practical as you can get and I would say on the other hand James which is as you said it's very practical exhortations about interpersonal conflict and how you look at people that are different from you and dealing with sickness and but then it goes up high a passage such as God is the giver of every good and perfect gift and he gives more grace and when we lack wisdom he gives I mean James doesn't go into the particular high details of the doctrine, but just as Ephesians doesn't go into some of the nitty-gritty James does, but they are nicely complementary to each other. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love the you know, we focus quite a bit on doctrine in our church and talk about if you understand that properly It'll help you to live we're living in light of the glorious doctrines of the scripture And I want to talk some more about that when we come back I want to talk about a subject that is on many people's mind. It's worry This is one of the chapters in this opening portion of your book says don't worry from Luke chapter 12 And we'll do that. Hey folks. I've got books And to give away on the program today, I'll tell you about in just a minute. You're listening to Knowing the Truth with Pastor Kevin Bowling. For more information about today's program, the radio ministry, and the resources we offer, go to www.knowingthetruth.org. Hello, this is Pastor Virgil Harris of Calvary Redemption Center Church in Spartanburg, South Carolina, welcoming you to Bloodline, which will come to you every Sunday morning, 830 a.m. on Christian Talk 660, where we'll be discussing the power of the blood, whereby each and every person can receive every promise that God has delivered. So we invite you to tune in and be blessed with us in Jesus name. Many people struggle with anger, depression, parenting, or even their marriage. 2 Timothy 3.16 tells us all scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness. Learn more at the National Association of New Thetic Counselors National Conference, October 5th through 7th in Spartanburg. You'll hear from nationally known speakers and authors like James McDonald, Jay Adams, and David Pallison. This year's pre-conference focuses on finances with Crown Financial Ministries Dr. Howard Dayton. Register online at nanc.org. That's n-a-n-c dot org. With tail-thrashing dinosaurs, five state-of-the-art theaters, plus an incredible 160 exhibits, the Creation Museum presents a journey through history that will capture your imagination and appeal to your senses. Walk through the lush Garden of Eden and see exotic animals. Voyage with Noah on the Ark, or buckle into your planetarium seat and prepare for liftoff. Seats rumble and a cool mist rises in our special effects theater and animatronic people converse with our guests. Come face to face with a monstrous moving sauropod and have your children settle up on our triceratops. Browse through our Dragon Hall bookstore to find the latest in DVDs, reference books, and curricula. And our beautiful outdoor gardens lend a finishing touch to your museum experience. Located mid Museum provides 60,000 square feet of family fun. Prepare to believe. Hello, this is David Jeremiah inviting you to join me for a memorable evening of Christ-centered worship and teaching from God's Word that is critical for our lives today. I look forward to meeting you for this special night of encouragement. Plan now to attend this free event at the Bilo Center in Greenville at 7 p.m. on October 29th. Request your free tickets today by calling 800-947-1993 or by visiting our website at davidjeremiah.org slash rallies. That's davidjeremiah.org slash rallies. Welcome back to Knowing the Truth with Pastor Kevin Bowling. Information regarding the resources referenced on today's program can be found at www.knowingthetruth.org. Now here to continue with today's program is Pastor Kevin Bowling. Hey, welcome back into the second half of the Knowing the Truth radio broadcast. We're speaking with Dr. David Poulsen about his book, Seen with New Eyes, Counseling and the Human Condition. And I wanted to let you know that I do have copies of the book to give away today, courtesy of PNR Publishing, who of course published the book. Let me give you their website in case you don't get a copy of the book today for some reason. It's www.prpbooks.com. You can go out there to find out not only about this title but they also publish eight other titles that have been written by Dr. Powelson as well and you can go out there and read about those various titles and find out all the information you need there about getting those. Let me tell you, though, that if you call in with your question or your comment today, we will mail you a copy of this book absolutely free, just courtesy of the Knowing the Truth radio broadcast and the folks there at PNR Publishing. Let me tell you how to do that. The number is 1-888-660-WLFJ. That's 1-888-660-9535. And let me also tell you, you can get in contact with me via the email is up and running. You can call me or send me an email at kevin at knowingthetruth.org. And you can also get in touch with me through Twitter is up and running as well. And so let's go back to our discussion with Dr. Paulson. And specifically, Dr. Paulson, I wanted to turn our attention a little bit towards The sixth chapter in that portion of your book that deals with don't worry, it's found in Luke chapter 12 that you write about, and let me just read the opening portion of that. In Luke chapter 12 and in verse 22 it says this, and he said unto his disciples, therefore, I say unto you, take no thought for your life, what you shall eat, neither for the body, nor what you shall put on. The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment." Well, if there was ever a message that is needed for our day and time, with everything that is taking place in our country and in the economy and all of these things, it would be the message for believers not to worry, not to give in to this temptation to worry about what is taking place. Tell us what our listeners would find in your exposition of that passage in your book. Yes. I think one of the ways that that I start in on that, that I think is helpful to people, is I start out by saying, you know, when you think about it, you have good reasons to worry. In the sense that our lives are fragile, right? Our bodies are fragile. We get sick, we can die. Our pocketbooks are fragile. We can lose money. Our relationships are fragile. They can break or we can lose someone we love. And so there's a sense, and I think this would be the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, very candid about the fragility, the, you know, we're a morning mist that vanishes. And so you could say that at one level we have good reasons to worry when we look at what is simply around us and look realistically. But then the core of Jesus' teaching here in Luke 12 and of other parts of Scripture dealing with worry is that if we have good reasons to worry, we have better reasons not to worry. And those reasons, those better reasons ultimately come down to one irreducible fact, and it is that God is with us. And if the one who is the Lord of life, if the one who is the Savior, if the one who is our Father, if the one who made the universe is with you, you are safe. And that's not some, you know, cheap, you know, guarantee that your life's not going to have hassles. But it is a fundamental context in which You are safe. You have a place of refuge even when all else gives way around you, as so many of the Psalms, for example, portray. It's really a matter of tying in with the title of your book, but it's a matter of perspective, isn't it? It is new eyes. And I think we've probably all been in those situations where you look at it, you know, you can look, for example, at a health crisis and from one angle, your life is threatened. And from another angle, you have just been given a wonderful opportunity to put into living practice that core of the Christian faith that, to use the Apostles' Creed from almost two millennia ago, that we believe in the resurrection of the dead and the life everlasting. And that is at the core of Christian faith. talk about whether it's the worries financially or whether it's medicine and all the anxiety people feel currently about medical issues. And as Christians we have, well maybe I could put it this way, doctors lose every patient in the end. And Christ loses no patients. He wins them all. All who come to him, he will bring to the Father and he will bring into eternal life. I was reading through the review that was done. I mentioned it out on Discerning Reader, and I remember in reading through that that the fellow who did the review said that he particularly liked your book because he said that there was a tendency in biblical counseling to emphasize the idea of people's sin, and I understand why that is done. There's a lot of blame shifting. There's a lot of not really recognizing that what is taking place in the counselee's life is a result of sin, so I completely understand why that takes place. But Bob Kellerman, who did the review, says that in your book, though, you mix that with a healthy dose of what he calls sufferology, you know, the biblical doctrine of how we should suffer, and acknowledging that people do suffer, just like you were saying. And so I think that, you know, did your attempt to try to do that to soften the biblical counseling typical stance there a little bit in writing this? You know, that's a complex question, and I'll give a simple answer. I think that biblical counselors as people have always, again, you can find exceptions, but been people of compassion. And we are called by scripture to weep with those who weep, to rejoice with those who rejoice, to comfort the faint-hearted. That has always been core. That said, though, in a culture in which sin is never mentioned, and if you mention sin, that's going to tend to attract a lot of attention. And I think that, you know, it's given human nature what it can do. Those of us who are in biblical counseling sometimes can, you might say, camp out on what seems like the most distinctive thing about what we do, which is sin and Christ. Sin, Christ, Scripture. But a balanced biblical view and a balanced view of Christ and a balanced view of sin always deals with the whole picture, which includes our sins and our sorrows. And I think it's important, and you can tell me if you agree with this, that we have to be careful as counselors. And I'm not so sure that we've even gotten to this point because New Thetic Counseling and Biblical Counseling is really so new that the Church has picked to back up its responsibility of doing this work. But we do have to be careful. One caveat is that we don't look at the client, you know, as just a client. It is a human being, and we need to understand that. That needs to be first and foremost in our counseling. Do you agree? Amen. Amen. And I would add to that, and maybe this is where you were going, that counseling is not a sin hunt. You know, this human being that you're speaking with, if he or she is a believer, they have they have a fountain of life inside. You're a Johnny-come-lately to a Holy Spirit who's been on scene in that person's life for a lot longer than you have. And then a second thing I'd say on that is that from the standpoint of, you might say, our doctrine of understanding people, obviously sin is more fundamental than suffering. Because ultimately, sin is the cause of suffering. The wages of sin is death. But you might say strategically, The entry gate into a person's life is typically through where they feel some sense of pain or distress or hardship or life's not working. There's a way where you could even say that a sense of guilt is a God inflicted or a right sense of guilt is a God inflicted suffering. It's a pain of conscience that makes you deal with your sins. So often in the actual doing of ministry, your door in, your entry gate as it were, distress, and then in the context of that, because our sins are always playing a part, sin is going to come on the table. There are going to be places, I would say that the places where sin is the starting point are usually where someone is, in the words of 1 Thessalonians 5.14, is just unruly. So someone committing adultery, someone dealing drugs, Unless they come as their own accuser, conscience smitten, then you're going to start with sin. But with most people who seek help, you're going to probably start with their sense of pain and sorrow. You know, when you mention that pain and sorrow especially as being the entrance point, as you put it, a very good way to put this The Reformed Church has historically been a little bit critical of the whole idea of felt needs, and I would fall into that same camp. I would be critical as well if it is only the felt needs that are being addressed and not the ultimate felt need, the greatest felt need, i.e. a Savior. But I think you're balanced there where you were just laying this out, you know, that nevertheless felt needs are really used of God, you know, to get people's attention, to get them to focus on what really matters in life. And so I thought that was excellent, the way that you gave the balance on that particular issue. Well, when we come back from the break, we'll drill down a little bit further in this book. I want to let you know you can participate. You're only going to have about 10 or 15 minutes to do so. So I want to encourage you, 1-888-660-WLFJ. That's 1-888-660-9535. We're speaking with David Powelson about seeing with new eyes. You're listening to Knowing the Truth with Pastor Kevin Bowling. For more information about today's program, the radio ministry, and the resources we offer, go to www.knowingthetruth.org. We want to hear your voice on Christian Worldview today. You know, we the people have got to stand up and say enough is enough. These are cases where the government is overstepping on so many different levels and there's three great examples right there in three different areas of our lives where the government is stepping in and really putting a chilling effect on our rights. Call us weekday mornings 7 to 9 with your host Dr. Tony Beahm on Christian Talks 660. Many people struggle with anger, depression, parenting, or even their marriage. 2 Timothy 3.16 tells us all scripture is God breathes and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness. Learn more at the National Association of New Thetic Counselors National Conference, October 5th through 7th in Spartanburg. You'll hear from nationally known speakers and authors like James McDonald, Jay Adams, and David Pallison. This year's pre-conference focuses on finances with Crown Financial Ministries Dr. Howard Dayton. Register online at mank.org. That's N-A-N-C dot org. It's great pizza for a great price. So pack up the family and head over to Stevie B's, next to Walmart on Woodruth Road in Greenville. At Stevie B's, you'll find friendly faces and at least a dozen pizzas out at all times. Or you can order a pizza, and they'll make it fresh just for you with no extra cost. So visit Stevie B's today. Hi, this is Pastor Kevin Bowen, and I want to take the time to thank John, Ruth, Carlos, and the good folks over there at Stevie B's Pizza for their support of the Knowing the Truth radio broadcast. More and more people are deciding to secure their family's safety by applying for a South Carolina concealed weapons permit. Dry Fire's class includes the NRA basic pistol course and state training requirements for a concealed carry permit. The class includes instruction from NRA certified instructors, info on South Carolina gun laws, the written exam, and qualifying with a firearm on the outdoor range. Register for South Carolina's concealed weapons permit class by calling 608-1522 or log on to dry-fire.com. Welcome back to Knowing the Truth with Pastor Kevin Bowling. Information regarding the resources referenced on today's program can be found at www.knowingthetruth.org. Now here to continue with today's program is Pastor Kevin Bowling. Hey, welcome back into the last segment of the Knowing the Truth radio broadcast today. We're speaking with Dr. David Powelson about a book that he wrote some time ago, actually. I think it was in 2003. But nevertheless, you know, the writings in this book are really pertinent to what we face today. And the book that I'm talking about is the book Seen with New Eyes, published by PNR Publishing. And we've been talking through various aspects of this book on the broadcast today. I wanted to, once again, just tell you that I do have copies of the book to give away. You only have a few minutes to call in if you'd like to. And also, I wanted to let you know that, again, about the fact that Dr. Paulsen is going to be in the upstate of South Carolina this weekend. He will be preaching over at Redeemer Presbyterian Church, an ARP church, in Moore, South Carolina. If I remember right, when I used to go there for the biblical counseling training classes through RBCTI, I think that's exit 63 or 64 off of 85 North coming out of Greenville, but that's where the church is located. You can either Google it or go out to uh the knowingthetruth.org website click on the broadcast for today the blog for it and then i've put a link to that church in the blog and you can just click on the the words there the name of the church and it's a hyperlink take it right to their website then you can get the direction the phone number and all the information there that you need service times and so forth also uh dr paulson will be speaking over at the um new set of counseling conference that is coming to first presbyterian church of Spartanburg. That'll be Monday through Wednesday of next week. I will be there as well. I'll be doing some interviews with a number of the speakers as well as with some of the attendees there and so I'll be all set up over there with some recording equipment and doing some interviews. If you're listening to the broadcast today and you're planning on going, make sure you stop by and say hello. We had a big event here in the area just recently over at Stevie B's, and over 300 people came by, and so I got to meet a number of the listeners out there in the Greenville-Spartanburg area anyways. And I'd love to have you come on by and say hello over at the booth at the NANC conference as well. I'll also be doing some interviews as well at the Together for Adoption conference coming up this weekend in Tennessee, just outside of Nashville. And I'll be doing some interviews there. Dr. Russell Moore will be there and Ed Stetzer and many others. Dan Kruver and the good folks there from Together for Adoption have just pulled together a tremendous conference. I don't know if you can still get in on that or not, but if you're just hearing about it now through this broadcast, let me tell you again, you can go to my website there at knowingthetruth.org, and if you go there, there is a link to that conference, but it starts this Friday, and so time is short if you're interested in going to that. Okay, let's go back to our discussion with Dr. Paulsen. Dr. Paulsen, you know, we talked about the first portion of this book primarily, and about the human condition, and we've elaborated on a number of those things, and the fact about Scripture opening up blind eyes. Let's talk a little bit about the second portion of this book. primarily under the heading here of reinterpreting life. What did you mean by that title for that second segment of the book? Yes. In the second half of the book, I take a number of case studies, the issue of love languages, feelings, what if your father didn't love you, human defense mechanisms, motives, desires. And things that you might say that the secular world has got there a long time ago and has given a definition and interpretation of those things, and it should be no surprise to us that as a Christian comes with different eyes, we are not denying that they're looking at real phenomenon. Those are things that are part of what, you know, people aren't making it up, they aren't seeing Martians, but they're misinterpreting it. And so that second half of that seeks to look at some of these things and give them a spin from... biblical lens. One of the chapters that jumps out at me is you've got a chapter there talking about, I am motivated when I feel desire. Is that a section obviously talking about the role of emotions? You know, emotions would be a subset of it, but it would lead with desire, will, want, what you hope in, what you're after in life, what you're pursuing. Obviously, each of those things is closely tied. If what I am wanting is frustrated, I may struggle with anger. If what I'm wanting is threatened, I may struggle with anxiety. If what I'm wanting seems hopeless, I may struggle with depression. If what I want I get, I'm happy. You and emotions are intimately wedded to what we want. what we want is the foundation stone of every, what would be called personality theories, every secular theory of what makes people tick, and the Bible takes a very unique point of view on how to understand what we want. Let's, if we could for a second, let's go to the phone lines very quickly. We've got Dwight up from Anderson, South Carolina. Dwight, you got a question or a comment for our guests today? Yes. How does nuthetic counseling relate to child counseling? If there are children that need particular kinds of counseling, how would that relate to I'm going to let Dr. Paulsen answer that, but let me say that at our church right now, we're watching this series by Ted Tripp right now about shepherding our children. And that's a great series where he obviously brings in a number of the same types of things that are spoken about in New Fetid Counseling. He's bringing that in specifically to counseling our children. But with that said, let me go ahead and have Dr. Paulsen respond to your question. Yes, hi Dwight. I would say that the word euthetic, for example, in the scriptures is used there in Ephesians 6 about parents raising their children in the teaching or admonition or new thesis. That's the instruction of the Lord. As Kevin has said, parents counsel their children I would say that, just to speak personally, that where there's a child involved, I am, first of all, really desirous of getting the parents in there. The parents have the relationship. The parents have the trust. And if I can help the parents do a better job, it will be ten times more efficient and effective than if I myself do the counseling. That said, if the parents are the problem, perhaps it's a, you know, there's been violence in the home or... Yeah, I'm having a hard time hearing. And in a situation like that, you're going to want to speak directly to the child, recognizing that as a stranger, that the issue of building trust is going to be maybe a slow and patient task. We ended up letting Dwight go so that he would be able to hear the answer on the over the airways so that he could hear it that way. That's why you're not getting a follow-up response from Dwight there. Dwight, I hope that was okay. We're just trying to make it so that you'd be able to hear the answer there as well. And as you heard from David, he was saying about the importance about getting the parents involved in that situation. Of course, the responsibility for the children rests with the parents. That's pretty clear in Deuteronomy chapter 6, Psalm 78, and other passages as well. Ephesians chapter 6 there as well. And so, you know, that is critically important. I would recommend to you that either Ted Tripp's book, his most recent book and DVD series, or also the book Shepherding a Child's Heart, which came out first, and now this later DVD that he has out as well. Any of those two would really be helpful in counseling with children, I think, and so I'll just leave that with you as a resource. David? You know, Kevin, I'll put in there too, Ted's brother Paul Tripp wrote a book called Age of Opportunity that focuses on the teenage years. Yes. Again, I think Paul does a uniquely sweet-spirited, insightful job of helping parents actually communicate with their teenagers. Good point, which is often a very difficult job for sure and where we find many problems sometimes. Both of those authors have been with me on the radio program as well, Dwight, and so if you go out to the audio archive portion of the Knowing the Truth radio program, you can look up interviews and listen to that MP3 for free. David, our time is gone. Looking forward to hearing you speak over at the conference and I'm sure the folks over there at Redeemer are looking forward to you as well doing the preaching this Sunday. Any final thoughts before we close out the broadcast today? Well, Kevin, it's such a pleasure to all get to meet you. So we've met by voice here, but it'll be great to meet you face-to-face. Great. Love to have you stop by the booth over there at the NENC conference and maybe get a couple more thoughts from you about how the conference is going and those types of things. Thank you very much for taking time out of your busy schedule. Let me tell you that on Thursday, Philip Riken is going to be with me on the broadcast. We're going to be talking about his book, Courage to Stand. This is about Jeremiah's message. for a Post-Christian Times. You don't want to miss it. This Thursday on Knowing the Truth. I was in every devotional, been every place emotional. Tried to hear a new word from God, and I think it's very odd. Now while I attempt to help myself, my Bible says it's upon the shelf. I could ever need. And the world will rise, and the world will live, and the world will be. And the world will rise, and the world will live, and the world will be. People are getting fit for truth like they're buying a new tailored suit. Does it fit across the shoulders? Will it fade when it gets older? We throw ideas more to meet our needs. The word was, and the word is, and the word will be. The word was, and the word is, and the word will be. The word was, and the word is, The opinions expressed on today's program are those of the announcers, their guests, and callers, and do not necessarily represent those of the staff and management of his radio network, the Radio Training Network, or Clear Channel Communications. Life changing teaching and talk for the Carolinas in Georgia. Thanks for making us a part of your day. Christian Talks 660 WLF.