The following program is recorded content created by The Truth Network. It's Matt Slick Live! Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at karm.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers. Taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Hey everybody, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick, and you're listening to Matt Slick Live. If you want to give me a call, it's easy. All you have to do is dial 877-207-2276. You can also email me. That is easy. Just send an email to info at carm.org. C-A-R-M dot O-R-G. Put in the subject line, radio comment or radio question. One of those that we can get to you. You know, we've got nobody waiting right now, so that's good. Well, I actually would prefer to have somebody waiting right now, so it's not that good. Let's see. So, no radio for me Thursday, Friday, and Monday. I will be out of town. I am going to my 50-year high school reunion in Southern California. So I'll be there, and there you go. no live radio thursday friday and monday so there you go there now if you want to give me a call it's easy 877-207-2276 and we can get to some of those emails later if you guys are so inclined and don't give me a call We can do that. Now, I do want to let you know, folks, that we do stay in the air by your support. Please consider supporting us. We definitely need it. And just asking you to go to CARM and sign up for $10 a month. We don't need that much from each individual. We just need enough to cover what we need. And so we're having to tighten the belt because that's just how it is with a lot of ministries right now. So I'll just let you know. All right, why don't we get to Jermaine from California. Jermaine, welcome, you're on the air. Hey Matt, I got a question about Old Testament law and its applications. I know a lot of discussions on right and dividing the world always comes up, but it seems like some people pick and choose what they want to apply and not apply. I was having a discussion with a cousin of mine and she seems set that numbers is applicable to us now, as far as generational curses and whatnot. But I point out that that was written to Jews, that wasn't written to Gentiles, and that was Old Testament, and there seems to be some confusion on her part on that. I just kind of wanted to hear you break that down a little bit, how, you know, some things may have like a spiritual application, but not a practical one. Yeah, you're right. We always want to look at what the scripture says according to what the scripture says. Sometimes what people will do is take a verse where Joshua, I believe it is, chooses day who you will serve. And they say, see, that means you have libertarian free will. And they rip it out of the context of God, of Moses speaking to the covenant people of Israel in their rebellion. And so people will frequently take something, misapply it. There is a phrase, variations of a phrase, speak to the sons of Israel or say to the sons of Israel. that God addresses Israel specifically, and that's because of the covenant that he'd made with them to bring the Messiah through the people of Abraham, the descendants of Abraham out of Genesis 12. So, of course, they rejected the Messiah, and we the Gentiles are grafted in. All right, so when people get to Old Testament laws, There are actual divisions, and I've got an article on this on Karm someplace, where it says, say to the sons of Israel or speak to the sons of Israel. And I go through and I show in a table things that are said only for Israel and things that are said for all nations. And so we have to, in the particulars that she is talking about, In order to give a good, competent answer, we would have to go to the context and see, is he speaking universally, God speaking universally, or is he speaking covenantally to Israel? Like, you know, for example, you shall not mix the threads, or things like that. Well, that's definitely for Israel. So, we have to find out the context of it and then see, like you said, if there's a spiritual application. And we want to be careful about just saying there's a verse in the Bible, therefore it belongs to us. So when God said to Adam, don't eat of the tree, well see, we're not supposed to eat of trees anymore. We can't have any fruit of trees. That's because he said to Adam. And people, what? That's not what, you know, it took it out of the context. So it does happen. You're on the right track though, man. Definitely. Okay, do I have time to add a little context? Sure, go for it. In particular, Numbers 14, especially verse 18, using that as a proof text for continual generational sin. And I know you and I have discussed this before, and you gave a great answer, which I wholeheartedly agree with, but when I read Numbers, I'm assuming that's addressed to the ancient Israelites, and also just the very beginning of the chapter, just to get context, it's specifically mentioning, you know, the congregation and all the children of Israel. And then it goes down from there, talking about, you know, Mosaic times. How are people still trying to connect all of that with current times? Because if Jesus was nailed to the cross, you assume the curses were nailed there as well. Yes. Now, there is this issue of covenant and covenant has stipulations and rewards for keeping them and punishments for breaking them. So if we were to go to Numbers 14, 18 and we were to recognize that God is speaking covenantally to Israel, It says, the Lord is slow to anger, abundant in loving kindness, forgiving iniquity and transgressions, but he will by no means clear the guilty, visiting iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation. So this is spoken of in Exodus 20 also. And so we're going to get into a little bit of this. It becomes more difficult to exegete certain things. So in Exodus 20, verse 5, this is the Ten Commandments. You shall not worship them or serve them. I, the Lord, your God, jealous God, visiting iniquity in the fathers and the children of the third and fourth generation. So he says the same thing, third and fourth generation, in both Exodus 20, verse 5, and Numbers 14, 18. So, now the thing is, we can say, is Numbers 14 and 18 for all people? I think there's a context in which it is. Particularly since we understand that in Exodus 20, Nine of the Ten Commandments are reiterated in the New Testament, and the one that is not is the Sabbath. So that issue of not serving false gods, like the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox do, and the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, and the judgment comes upon them and their children. So that is certainly there, and still extant. God will punish the guilty whether you're in the covenant or out of the covenant. And so I would say even though certain things are principally addressed to the Jews, they can be spiritually true for everybody. So if God says to the Jews, you shall not murder and you'll be judged, that applies to everybody. And even though the Ten Commandments are covenant documents between God and Israel, And we know this because, I mean, the application is now because the Ten Commandments are reiterated in the New Testament and validated, except for that one, the Sabbath, I said. I don't know if that helps any, because it's not an easy one to get in through. I think that actually helps a lot. It just shows we have to pay attention to the nuance and detail and really examine the text and not just throw a blanket statements out there and otherwise we'll move into stoning and you know death penalty for not keeping the Sabbath and they always avoid those parts to people who like going back into the Old Testament. Makes perfect sense. Yeah, and sometimes the atheists are the ones who say, oh, he was a stone people, and stuff like that. And then I say, no, that was under a theocratic system. We're not under that anymore, et cetera. But yeah, so you always ask good questions, man. You have good questions. So keep it up. Yeah, I appreciate the answers. All right, man. God bless, brother. All right, God bless you. All right. Well, that was Jermaine from California. Just want to give a shout out to Jamal, who calls in every now and then. Hey, man, thanks for the little thing, man. I got it. North Carolina thing. Really appreciate it. Don't know if he's listening. If he is, I know he's smiling. Let's get to Dave from North Carolina. Dave, welcome. You're on the air. Hi, Matt. Thank you for taking my call. How are you this evening? Oh, hanging in there. You know, just hanging in there. What do you got, buddy? Question. Sometimes you'll see a church, or even possibly a denomination, be wrong about a particular subject in Scripture, but it's not intentional, and sometimes you'll be said, well, that's okay, it's not a... what they're wrong about is not a salvational issue, so it's not heretical. It's not, I guess, it's not foundationally will cost you your salvation, the issue they're wrong about. What do you think about that? Yeah, there are things we call adiaphora. Adiaphora would be the non-essentials of the Christian faith. Essentials are such things as the deity of Christ, the Trinity, Jesus' resurrection, justification by faith alone through Christ alone, he's the only way to the Father, things like that. And so if you deny any of those kinds of things, you're lost. So adiaphora deals with pre-trib rapture, post-trib rapture. You can believe in either one, and it's fine. Or annihilationism, for example. You can believe in annihilationism and still be a Christian, though I consider annihilationism to be a minor heresy, in the sense it doesn't damn you. There are different degrees of heresy and errors that we are allowed to hold to. So we can have that. Now, as far as based on bad translations, that can certainly happen. That's why I don't use the King James. That's why I don't use the King James. Because his translations are good for then, but we have better translations now. And so I want something more accurate. So, OK? I appreciate that answer. Can I ask a question? I didn't present it to your audience. to your, uh, person taking the calls for you. So you kind of, I thought of it as we were speaking. It's a totally different subject. Is that okay? Sure. Um, I witnessed others. It's important to, you know, you know, to, to publicly, if you, if Jesus said, if you deny me to the man, I'll deny you before the father is publicly where I wear my faith on my sleeve and I try to reach out to others. But one question I got in doing that, and I didn't have a good answer for, was the Holocaust. How could God, if there's a God, one, how could he allow that? And two, if he is God and he couldn't allow it, if he doesn't help, or why wouldn't he stop it? And I didn't have a good answer for it. Okay. He chose not to stop it. And we don't know exactly why. However, there is something worth looking at. And I'm not going to say this is the answer, but it's a consideration. In Matthew 27, 25, I'm going to get to that in a second. This is the context of Jesus before Pilate. And Barabbas is set free. And Pilate says, Jesus didn't do anything. He says, I'm innocent of this man's blood. Verse 25, the people said, his blood shall be on us and on our children. and he released Bar Abbas. Now Bar Abbas means son of the father and he was a murderer from the beginning, etc. So he was a murderer. So a murderer was set free and the innocent was condemned in his place. And this is so what the Jews did. Now, so here's a question. Just so you know, I'm pro-Israel. We'll get back, we've got a break, and then we'll finish this up about this possibility of federal headship representation here. Hey folks, we'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. If you want to give me a call, all you've got to do is dial 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Okay, everyone, welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, it's easy, 877-207-2276. Dave from North Carolina, are you still there? if they have so uh... one of the things i want to bring up a lot of people don't bring up when discussing the issue of why israel is allowed to be punished and dealt with and uh... the holocaust and things like that incidentally more uh... non-jews were killed in uh... by the russians and stuff in and uh... of World War II, but that's another topic. So his blood shall be on us and our children. It could be that this is the ramification of what that statement is, that the Jews said, let our children be cursed. And because a federal headship where the male represents the descendants, we could make the case that this is what. is occurring throughout history. That's one possibility. The other one is that God wanted Israel to come back to the land because it's the covenant land and God used this great persecution to move a great many people. And how God works often is correspondingly in the real world, in order to have an incredible movement, there often must be an incredible event. Small movements require small events. Incredible ones take more time. And so Israel was brought back into the nation, into the land. May 14, 1948, it became a nation again. And, you know, I've been to Israel twice, and it's like coming home. It's the weirdest feeling to get there. So I think that's part of it. And then to fulfill biblical prophecy that Jesus will come back, touch down on the Mount of Olives, and Israel will be converted to Christianity, et cetera. So I think those are some of the things that are relative to why. They're definitely plausible answers and congruent with Scripture. I appreciate that. I listen to you, and I would say 98% of the time I agree with you, but 2% of the time I don't. I ruminate on what you said, and I think, and then I go back and look it up. So you've helped me tremendously in my growth as a Christian. Well, praise God. And I'm also glad that you don't agree with me on everything, because if you did, it basically would mean one of us isn't thinking very well. So we're all going to be corrected when we get to heaven. And I mean this when I say this. People don't think I'm serious sometimes, but I've always had this attitude. I've always known that I could teach people. I've always known that. But I've also always believed that I don't have all the answers, and people sometimes show me things that I didn't think of, I wasn't aware of. And I'm always grateful for that. So that 2%, maybe you're the one who's right in that, and you find some good evidence and stuff in scripture, let me know. I'm always open to being corrected. Okay? Okay, before I conclude, I want to thank you for taking that question I didn't present to the screen. I know that's not normally the way you like to do things, so I appreciate your field of the question. I really do. And I'll keep listening. I heard you say about your 50-year high school reunion, you have an abundance of energy, and I just praise God you can keep it up and doing what you're doing for faith. Well, I appreciate it, but I will tell you it does get fatiguing, particularly lately. There's so much on my plate now, an incredible amount of stuff I have to do and worry about. And I'll be 69 at the end of the year. So I'm pushing it. And we don't have enough funds to do all the things that need to be done. So I have to take up a great deal of stuff to do. And just pray so I can still have some energy to keep going because it's, you know, it's exhausting. It's exhausting. I'll keep you in your ministry and my prayers and thank you so much for taking my call. Hey, no problem at all, man. God bless. You're welcome. Thank you. All right. Hey, we have nobody waiting right now. If you want to give me a call, you can 877-207-2276. And let's see, someone says that there's a pastor who wants to call me sometime who said I'm wrong about the word fire, which is poor in Greek. He says, Matt's wrong about people who reject Jesus. Oh, okay. I would love to see what that is. So I know they're hearing me, like 15 seconds later, in the chat room there in Rumble. So is the pastor an annihilationist? That's what I would be curious to know. And what am I wrong about with fire? Maybe I'm wrong about some stuff. All right. Let's see. Okay, let's see. I don't know if I've read this before. I'm just going to get some of the emails that we've gotten. I attend a Calvary Chapel, have a question about normative authority. How was the church to adjudicate, excuse me, problems that would arise in the future after the time of the apostles, if not by church councils, by the elders in the church, the elders who ruled well. So let me show you. This is out of 1 Timothy 3. And it says in there, an overseer, that's episkopos, a bishop, must be above reproach, husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, et cetera, et cetera. He must manage his own household well and not a new convert. And so he has a good reputation outside the house and will not fall into reproach. All right. Now, when we get to Titus, the same kind of language is referred to. to the elder, and it says in verse 5, he says, point elders in every city, husband and one wife, children who believe, et cetera, for the overseer, and then he calls the overseer, he calls, he's equating it with the elder. All right, there must be a better approach, God's not self-willed, not quick-tempered, et cetera. So it says he must be hospitable, loving what is good, holding fast to the Word of Truth. And it says, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict. For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers, deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they ought not for the sake of sordid gain." And he goes on. So it says, reprove them. All right, so where does the authority rest? In the elders. In that church right there. So that's how we adjudicate problems in the church. So if there's an individual in the church who is in abject sin and will not repent, the elders have the obligation at that point to excommunicate that person, to bar the table from that person, so that they cannot then participate in the communion supper and the church needs to know they're under discipline. And they also need to know that they need to and desire to work with this person, to bring them back into fellowship, for it to be a loving thing and a good thing. So that's it. That's how they would do that. Some will say, he goes on the email, some will say that councils are not binding on us because they're not God-breathed, the scriptures are, and so we're capable of erring. So the councils are not, but the elders are. So the elders in our local church have that authority because the Bible says they are in that place of authority in 1 Timothy 5.17, the elders who rule well. So there is inherently within the eldership an authority that goes along with that job. So if I was attending a church and the elders came to me and said, man, we've got a problem with something you're saying or doing, I would listen to them. And if they had a good point and they said, we don't want you to say such and such, I'm going to listen to that. and stuff like that. Okay, so we have nobody waiting. If you want to give me a call, the number is 877-207-2276. I'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, everyone. Welcome back to the show. Bottom of the hour. I hope you want to give me a call. And if you do, the number is 877-207-2276. Cody from Texas. Cody, welcome. You're on the air. Hey, man. In regards to, you just got me thinking with the last question in regards to elders. Let me ask you this. Is it a biblical church if they do not have a plurality of elders, like biblically qualified elder status people? Well, it depends on the situation, you see, so... Let me preface this beforehand, if you don't mind. Sure. Because so many churches have a single pastor model, right? And then they have deacons, which are just people that are willing to serve, not necessarily you know, elder qualified, things like that, to be able to teach, step in and all that kind of stuff. Like, so is it a biblical church if it's just a single pastor model? Because in my experience, it's created a lot of hirelings, people that are scared to say certain things because it ends up causing their job. Well, what we need to do is just look at the scriptures first, and then work from there outward. So normatively, men were married when they were pastors and elders back then, because they just were. they would be involved in the church and there were all kinds of men who became Christians and who would also serve in the church. Now if you have a pastor, a small church, let's say there's 15 or 20 people and it's newly formed and let's just say that he's qualified as a pastor and there aren't any men in the group there who are elder material as of that time, then can he still be a pastor and is a legitimate church without more than one elder? And the answer in that case would be, well, yes. What he should be doing is working to raise up elders in the church as he can. And sometimes it takes time. So is it biblical to have one pastor as the sole elder in a church? In that sense, yes. If you have a member of a thousand-member church, then out of there, I'm sure, there are going to be qualified individual men who can become elders. And then they should be sought out and worked in eventually to have a normally proper church. So in that context, there's that. Now you're talking about other issues as well. There's yes men who acquire that position, right? Well, I mean, that can be, I think that's one of the reasons God established elder plurality in churches, so there's accountability, so that you don't create hierarchy. Right, we don't want that. We don't want that. And you could have a church, I've known of a church, I forget where, where there was no elders, just one elder, because a pastor by definition is an elder, and there was no other elders because there weren't any that were qualified as being elders. And so the pastor was going to work on well, work on developing eldership out of the congregation. And that's fine. He knows that that needs to be done and was ready to do that. So normatively, it should be their case, but we can't say it's proper or improper in every situation, okay? Yeah, no, I totally agree with you because in regards to the situations you presented, but like, it seems like Uh, there are way too many cases of several hundred members, like in between several hundred member churches that that's, you know, the pastor has looked at as a, it seems a lot of men advocate responsibility as in the congregation at times because the pastor is the head guy. Like nobody's looking to take initiative to be trained up or the pastor is afraid of losing the job that provides for his family. in the case. It can happen. You know what I mean? Yeah, I've lost my pastorate at a critical time in my life over the issue of the charismatic gifts. And coincidentally, in that church, it was a church plant, and I was called to be the pastor. There were no elders in the church because it was a church plant. And through the process, you'd raise up people that had to be confirmed, et cetera, et cetera, and the like. And I forgot about that, actually. My own situation is an example of it. But so it can happen. But normatively, it's supposed to have a plurality of elders. OK. OK. Another question. Is it a biblical church if they do not practice church discipline? And what does that look like? Well, normally speaking, they're supposed to practice church discipline. And what does it look like? Well, in Matthew 18, 15, it goes on, if your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private. If he doesn't listen to you, go with others. If he doesn't listen, take him to the church. So the model of discipline is something that needs to be administered when necessary. So if you have 10 people in a church, and that's a legitimate size for a church, and one pastor who's teaching, I've known of several congregations like that, and that's fine. Well, they're all good people, and no discipline is necessary. No discipline is needed. And so there's no discipline that's occurring. Well, that is a biblical event. Yeah, it is. So there's no need. But if one of those people had started doing something really bad, like sexual immorality, and it came to light of the pastor, any decent pastor would say, we can't do have this. And eventually would have to discipline that person if that person was unrepentant. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I, I, I would line up with reform Baptist, but growing up in a Southern Baptist background, it's, it seems like it's a lot of, single pastors that are afraid of administering church discipline because so many people are allowed to join a typical First Baptist Church in the South without, you know, as a social club, more or less. Right, it does happen. And so they're not properly discipled even about the differences in Roman Catholicism and things like that. They're not even told the basics. Even though the pastor can preach expositionally and correctly, for some reason, it doesn't filter down because people want that status of just being members. If you try to remove people from the roles, like the membership roles, even though they hadn't been in a couple of years, they will flip out. If you go on the page, just check in to see if you're still a member. There are different situations and different stuff and different motives and different conditions. I learned a long time ago not to try and give a blanket statement for everybody in situations like that. So, yes, there are injustices, there are inequities, there are sinners involved, and things aren't always right. But I can only give the normative requirement of Scripture and how it's supposed to work, and then the particulars have to be meted out accordingly, what the Scripture says. Yeah, of course. I think it's a general rule of thumb if the church doesn't practice church discipline on members who are doing things that everybody knows, outside of that deal, that that church actually doesn't love the person enough to go after them and correct them. In that context, sure. If there's known sin that's unrepentant and the eldership does not do anything about it, that's a problem. They're not qualified as an eldership at that point. They're disqualified. Yeah. Okay. Thanks. I didn't know if you had talked about, I talked to you last week on rumble or whatever, but I didn't know if you had mentioned your own personal situation with being a swatted and stuff like that in regards to what we're dealing with in the culture. Maybe you told me to remind you to bring that up. Okay. Yeah. I'll talk about it then. I'll, we had nobody waiting. I'll talk about some of the persecutions I've undergone. Sure. Okay. Okay. And I'll get, I'll get off. Go ahead, man. God bless. All right. Sounds good. Yeah, only because he brought it up wasn't even in my mind. But yeah, I have faced various forms of persecution. I can tell you all kinds of stories. And I'll just shoot around the bush a little bit and just remember some of the things. And maybe as the break's coming up, maybe I can tell you a few more. A few more. I got some stories, and some of them you won't believe. In fact, maybe I'll just tell stories for the rest of the show after the break, because I got some stories that people are like, are you serious? I go, yep. But I remember once I was preaching at a Bible study. I was asked to preach in a church or teach a study on how to witness to the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and the cults. And so I was in there for three or four weeks, giving them information and stuff. And then I mentioned one of the additional ways to, it was at a Baptist church incidentally, one of the additional ways to witness to them is to bring up the idea of predestination because all false religions deny God's predestination. And it was just a point, you know, and we could talk about it and how God is a sovereign king, because in cults, God's not the sovereign king. He's like them or exalted from them, whatever, and not that sovereign. And so let me just say that it was bad. It was bad. I had to pack my stuff up and get out fast. They were so angry with me. When I get back, I'll tell you about that time where I was backing up with my hands in a defense, martial arts defense position, backing away from people at a church. I'll tell you about that after the break, okay? Hey folks, we'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right everyone, welcome back to the show. Just to do it because the last caller asked, I'm going to tell some stories. True stories, not making any of this up. I've got, I'm looking at my list. I've got 36, 36 stories. People have loved my stories and how I tell stories. And so they said, who do you watch? You put them on videos and stuff like that. Maybe I will sometime, but I'm giving a list of things. Well, anyway, a few years ago here in Idaho, during the winter, it was snowing. I'd found out that a particular church, local, a big church, had women elders. And I called up the church and I said, I'm just curious if we could get together and talk about that. I'm just curious, you know, and why you guys do that. And they said, oh yeah, sure, no problem at all. I mean, you know, it's good. You know, defend their position. You're supposed to do that. And so I said, good. And then they, we set up an appointment like in a couple of weeks. I said, okay, fine. And then I get a, they contacted me and said, we've decided not to meet with you. And I'm on the phone with them, and I said, wait a minute, why not? You said you would. And I just want to go over scripture with you. And they said, no, we're not going to do that. I said, OK. So I went to the church and talked to somebody. And I said, how can we get you to meet with me? And the guy said, you would. No, we decided not to meet with you. We're not going to do that, so no thanks. I said, but you said you would. That was your word. And now this is an important issue about women elders and what the Bible says about it. I said, this is a serious thing. And he said, we're not interested in talking to you. So goodbye. So what I decided to do is wrote up some literature and I would pass it out in front of the church. I went to them. I went to the elders. They had wanted nothing to do with, with actually giving an answer. When they said they would meet me, they broke their word. Then they wouldn't talk. And then I said, OK, well, I'm just going to go to the body of Christ. That's what I'm going to do. I wrote up some literature and passed it out in a church service out in front of the church as they came in, as the people started coming in. It was snowing. I had 200 people helping me. And I was passing out the literature. I wasn't causing any problems. I wasn't yelling, I wasn't blocking traffic, whether it was pedestrian, which I don't think anybody was walking in because it was snowing. Not very heavy, but you know, it was cold. He had a big jacket on, a beanie and gloves and things like that. And so I'm out there for 40 minutes or so, 45 minutes, and people are taking the literature and you know it's getting to the eldership. And next thing you know, the police arrive. The police, they called the cops on me. This church called the cops on me. A Christian church. Who did not, they gave me their word they would meet. Let your yes be yes, your no be no. They broke their word. And I went down to meet with them just to check. They refused to meet. They would not submit to the issue of the scriptures what it says. I went to the church and they called the police on me. Nothing happened, but the police came and said, we got reports, blah, blah, blah. I says, yeah, we're just sitting out here on the sidewalk. We're not blocking any traffic. And they said, okay, good. The whole bit and the cops left. So that church called the cops on me. Now that's not a big deal. But you know, you'd think a Christian church like that would do? For real? It would have kept their word for one thing. It's a big church here in the area too. You think they would have kept their word? You think they would have just had a discussion? I said, well, why are you doing this? And the Bible says this and that. I mean, you know, why? You know, they wouldn't, didn't want to do that. And why would they call the cops? Why didn't they come out with some hot coffee? Why didn't they love their enemies, so to speak? Why did they send the cops? Oh, I was disappointed in them. So I was driving home and I realized, wait a minute, there's a church really close to me. Now that church is since gone, disbanded, I guess, I don't know, moved, whatever. And they had women pastors there, women elders. the wife of the pastor and I emailed him and I said I'm just curious maybe we could talk some time while you do that and you know the Bible says husband of one wife how does a woman do that and anyway I wasn't mean I wasn't threatening I just and I'm gonna stop by because I just got the cops called on me I'm gonna stop by this church And so I go into the church and happened to walk right in just as a service had ended, just a minute or two or three before. And I walked on in and people are milling around inside and, Oh, okay. Well, you know, they were friendly. Hey, how are you doing? And I just walked in and, and, um, So the pastor comes up and says, hey, how are you? And I said, oh, hey. I said, hey, you know, I'm trying to be very polite. I said, yeah, I emailed you guys a couple of weeks ago about women pastors, elder stuff. And it was like a switch got flipped. All of a sudden, he became aggressive and negative. He says, I'm not talking to you. You get out of here. And he raised his voice. And I'm like, oh my goodness. I happen to be physically up against a wall. And 15 feet to my left was the exit door. And there are people between me and the door. And this pastor is raising his voice at me. Well, instantly, you know, I've been taking martial arts for a while, and you're always taught, pay attention to your surroundings. And I'm sitting there going, this instantly is a bad situation, you know. And I just don't like being up against a wall, and this pastor's raising his voice when people's heads are turning now, and he's disgruntled at me. And I said, no, no, no, I was just stopping by to ask if we could talk about it. It's a biblical issue, and I thought maybe. He said, we're not talking. You get out of here. You need to get out right now. And people are turning their heads. And I'll tell you, when a mob mentality starts, it gets dangerous. And so I don't know what kind of Christians they are, supposedly Trinitarians and all that, I don't know that much. I don't know if they're all good, I don't know what. So I'm walking to my left towards that door and I said, okay, all right, no problem. I'm leaving, I'm leaving. And I just made it to that door, right? I'm like, okay, good. So at least I'm not gonna be cornered or up against the wall. And I go outside and this guy follows me. And he starts raising his voice at me. You need to get out of here. You need this. You need that. And I turn around and there's this, uh, congregation member and he's about 15 feet from me. And there's a lot of people around the area and I'm getting nervous now because I know how this can go. And the pastor had come out by that time and he started yelling at me. And I'm thinking, this is really bad. Now I'm outside and people are now looking at the pastor who's yelling at me and he's approaching me. And I'm backing up, and I put my hands out. I was taking Krav Maga. And if you know about Krav Maga, and if you put your hands up, palms open. Like, you put your hands up. Generally, I'm right-handed, so left hand's out a few inches past my right hand. And it's just a defense mechanism. I don't want any problems. And yet, we can close our fists. We're ready to go right away. It's just a style. Anyway, so I don't want any problems. And I stop, and I raise my hands up, and I go, look, I'm leaving. And I backed up, and there's a way you back up, actually, in martial arts. In a Krav, you keep one foot on the ground all the time, very well planted. You drag your foot, you move, you drag your foot, you just get out of the way, but you have to be planted and ready. So I'm doing that, right? And they don't know that, but I'm aware of it. And this guy is yelling at me and the pastor says, I'm leaving. And I'm backing up and it calmed down. And then the pastor turns around, he starts walking in. And, uh, but I'm still, I'm still, you know, got my hands up and I'm backing up. And this guy, so I put my hands down, that's right. Then this guy lunged at me like about two feet of a lunge. You know, he's 10 feet away by now. And he lunged at me a couple of feet and I put my hands back up. And as soon as I put my hands back up in the air, he yelled out, he hit me. Or no, he shoved me. That's what he said. He shoved me. That's what he said. Happened a few years ago. And the pastor turns around and yells out loud, did you shove him? And everybody's looking at me at this point. And I'm thinking, oh my goodness. This is out of control. The pastor was horrible. And this guy, you know, he did it. I said, no, I did not. I said, I'm just, I'm just backing up to get out of here. And he lied. I said, he flat out lied. I didn't touch him. I didn't do anything. I mean, serious. The guy, he lied. He actually lied. And, um, The pastor came back down and the guy started coming at me again and to the pastor's credit, he stopped him, put his hand on his chest and said, there'll be none of that right now. None of that here. That's what he said. And which was, you know, to his credit. Okay, good. And so I remember still to this day, to this minute, that's happened 10 years ago. I remember looking, uh, grabbing the door handle of my car. I still remember seeing it. Good. I grabbed my car and I got in, I got out of there. So, uh, true story, true story. Okay. Both of them. just for asking why you allow pastors, women, to be elders. Why is it that people are so uppity about their heresies? You know, it's a heresy, folks. Women are not supposed to be pastors and elders. And that's what the Bible teaches. And once again, After 20 years of radio, I'll offer this again. I'll fly out to your church and we'll have a public moderated debate, you know, opening statements, responses, moderated on does the Bible teach women can be pastors and elders. I've offered this, I don't know how many times in 20 years over the radio and not a single person in a single church has ever accepted. Why? Because they know I'm going straight to God's word, and I know what I'm saying from God's word. And they don't want that. And they're going to continue in their heresies. That's a heresy. You shouldn't do that. You shouldn't have women pastors and elders, because the Bible says not to. But, you know, it doesn't mean they're not saved, it doesn't mean they're not Christian, it just means they're not submitting to the Word of God in that area. So, there is, it's a true story, okay? I got more stories, but we're running out of time. And, I mean, about being persecuted. And if you guys want, I'm going to whet your appetite for this one. If you want, I can tell you. But you've got to request it. You've got to ask me to do it on the radio. I can tell you a story that's true about how some Satanist was trying to kill me, another Satanist helped me, how an atheist group was trying to destroy the ministry, and a twist of fate that you would go, what? Are you serious? I just told the whole story a couple of days ago, three days ago, in a chat room. They asked me about this. I told them the story. And when I said it, each time I was saying something, the guy goes, whoa, no way. I said, but wait, there's more. He goes, no way. Are you serious? I go, yeah, but wait on this one. And then I told him the final thing. He goes, are you kidding? Are you serious? I said, yeah, I'm serious. Really high voice there. I said, yep, it really was true. He goes, are you kidding? He goes, that's amazing. So I got stuff like that. So I'm trying to get you interested. If you want to hear me give the story, but that one I can't tell in just a couple of minutes. That one takes a while, but persecuted. But yeah, I was swatted also, and that's a whole other story. I could tell that one more in depth just outside my house. Years ago, we think an atheist is the one who did it. And I was walking backwards in the dark, hands up in the air with, I don't know, I think it was like 15 guns pointed at me all at once. And I did everything they said when they said it. They said jump eject. Okay. How many do you want? You know, so I did everything they say it said and this bit of a story too It takes like five minutes to tell everything about that and then there's the stories of me being followed in cars my wife being followed in cars and people threatening to Destroy us kill us and sue us and there's just some of the things we had to go through as as Christians here at Garba Hey folks, I am out of time. May the Lord bless you and by His grace, we're back on the air. And Lord willing, we'll talk to you tomorrow. We'll see you, God bless, bye.