This message was given at Grace Community Church in Minden, Nevada. At the end, we will give information about how to contact us to receive a copy of this or other messages. All right. Well, so happy that you could stay. And our lunch folks did just such a good job. Thank you so much. Yeah, please, round of applause. Lunch folks, if you can't tell, that's for you. So thank you. They're back there still, bustling away. Well, you have submitted just a broad range of very good questions. And truly, I am so pleased that they are going to answer them. This is really good, difficult, edifying questions, and so thank you for having done that. I'd like to begin us with prayer, and then I've just got a list of questions, and we will get through as many as we can. If yours does not come up, I am sorry for that. Just some real-world limitations keep me from it. So let's go ahead and pray. Our Heavenly Father, we come to you in total need of your wisdom. And we pray now as we consider these questions, all these implications of your truth as it meets this fallen world, we pray that you would guide us in the right and true way. May your Word enliven, enlighten our darkness. And we pray that you would help our speakers now. It's in Jesus' name we pray. Amen. All right, so I would like to begin with two that were very similar, and some of these I will let you know if they are directed to one of you, but this one is generally applied, and let me give you some context. These are longer questions. The sexual harassment policy at my place of work demands that I use the preferred names and pronouns of transgender individuals. Given the demographics in my workplace, it's a wonder I haven't run into this situation already. What's the right response that preserves my witness in the workplace? Is it lying to refer to someone as he or she if it doesn't match their biological sex? Or is it merely respectful to go along with the culture in this form of address? And very similarly, it was a second question saying, I work in a place with many LGBT people, I believe that many would try to bait me to say gay marriage is wrong and will then try to get me into trouble with management. Should I avoid answering them to prevent trouble? So obviously these issues are very closely related and affecting our livelihoods as the people of God. And so perhaps, Brian, would you like to, no, John, would you? Someone has to go first. I think Bruce should go first. It's a great question. I'll start. Thank you, brother. And then you brothers can jump in as you feel led. Well, the first thing that comes to my mind is the great good in life is not keeping your job. So, I mean, faithfulness to Christ. When we're told the world will hate your righteousness, you know, so it's kind of a new version of an old theme, right? And so I think we need to be wise as serpents, but innocent as doves in this. So you do avoid overt confrontation, but you can't, you shouldn't avoid direct answers to questions on your own convictions. And then, goodness, you let the chips fall where they may. And so I think this really faces us with the reality today of realizing that People can lose their jobs. You can lose your bakery. You can lose your photography business. And it's going to spread much bigger than that over time to individuals within workplaces. So I think it's one of those areas where we have to decide right now who it is we are going to serve. Will it be the culture? Will it be the Lord and how we speak faithfully? So that's just a start. There's more. Well, I mean, I agree with everything that Bruce said. I think that we don't go looking for a fight. If we have constraints in the workplace that we don't agree with, we don't put ourselves in positions where we're going to have to blatantly defy those. But sooner or later, it's going to catch up with us. You're not going to choose to be faithful on the spot. You have to choose to be faithful before you get put in that situation. And what does faithfulness look like? Well, it looks like remaining true to God's truth. But it also means being compassionate, being loving. And, you know, as we heard last night with John's message, we can be the nicest people on the planet, but if we don't comply, we will still seem to be hateful. And there's actually just nothing we can do about that. That is the cost of following Jesus. And so I think that we're as compassionate and loving as we can be. And then when it comes time, we don't bow. I agree. I think that I was interacting with somebody about this and what we were saying is it seems like some of these issues are so new. A lot of pastors and theologians are just trying to get their arms around Level 1, and now we're getting into Level 2 and 3 applications, but we're certainly going to have to come up with the right ways of thinking about it. In Doug Wilson's book, Same Sex Mirage, he said that if he ran into Bruce Jenner, He said, well, the best that he could probably get out of me is if I called him Jenner, that I'm not going to call him Caitlin, but I might not put it in his face by calling him Bruce. Maybe I'd just call him Jenner, but I don't think that's going to work. I mean, ultimately, in a situation like what's being described, may it be that we are known in our workplace as being so kind and loving that when these issues do come up, people would be convicted that, good grief, that was the nicest guy around. And yet he didn't say it like they made him say it. You know, that's much better, like it says in 1 Peter, you know, it's different for suffering for being a Christian than suffering because you're kind of an edgy guy anyway, you know. What translation do you use? Yeah, it says the extra spiritual version. So brothers, if I could just get a quick follow-up, very specifically with the pronouns, he and she. Is that the line to you? Is that God's truth to fight for just those very words? I don't know. I don't know. Just as the question itself indicated, he gave two answers, right, in the question. And I wonder if this is one of these places where there's not an absolute right or wrong that you have to discern what is wise in that situation. So I think the default for me would be to take the name that he, she now prefers to be called, but if the situation seems right to address the whole issue with them, then it may be appropriate to use their original name. I don't know, it's very hard. I'd be curious if my brothers have a clearer sense than I do. You could always resort to bad grammar. Brian Borgman just said that. We do it all the time. Instead of he, she, we say they, which of course is incorrect. I'm not willing to die for this, but your masculine and feminine pronouns actually reflect something. if we, let's say we're able to creatively figure out how to do an end run around the pronouns. It's just a matter of time then before it's something else. And so to me, I think that, you know, and I'm not in a situation like that. I don't work in a workplace where I have, I mean, I have people that are irritating in my workplace, but I don't. How irritating are they, Brian? All they talk about is soccer and tea. You know, it seems to me, and so I say this as a pastor that works in an insulated environment, just like Bruce at the seminary and John in his church, we're not out in the same workplace that you guys are. And I wanna acknowledge that, and there may sound like some false bravado, but it just seems to me that to give in at the pronoun level is actually just a compromise that you're going to have to end up then figuring out if you're going to compromise at the next level. Anything you'd like to add, brother? All right. Good choice. So, as we transition maybe away from the workplace, but still including it, how would you recommend a Christian love their LGBT friends and colleagues without condoning their sin? John? Well, I gave some ideas last night just in terms of you get to know them, get to know them by name, care about them. Just think of ways that we show love to other people. you know, what are your interests? What's going on? What are your heart burdens? You know, let me get to know that. Let me care for you as a person and show respect. And I think that that will be a good start. And maybe there'll be some common interests that you can nurture and that kind of thing. Obviously the Pharisees, I was going to say nobody misunderstood Jesus, well the Pharisees misunderstood Jesus completely, but Jesus had no lack of integrity. None of the people, I'm going to guess, none of the people that he was a friend to would have detected affirmation of their sin. They might have misperceived something, I suppose, on dangerous ground to speculate like that. But Jesus clearly, in and of himself, never affirmed their sin at all. And yet, he was dining with them. He was with them. He did things that could justifiably earn the label friend of sinners. It wasn't just a slander because You know, Jesus didn't snub them like the Pharisees. He genuinely was friendly. And I also think if we cultivate a love for LGBT people around us, then we'll kind of know instinctively things to do to further our friendship with them. So even if you don't really know and you kind of feel awkward, if you genuinely pray that God would give you a love for that person and genuinely just make a little effort, I think God's gonna help you with the next step. I don't think you have to map it all out. Well said, brothers. Anything to add? You did just that well. They're totally ceding the answer to you. Good. So how about this? How can we best communicate the gospel to someone living in a homosexual lifestyle? And can you give examples of how you might begin a conversation in that situation? I had a cousin who was dying of AIDS. And I forget how long ago this was. It was a while ago. And when I found out that he was dying, I had known that he was homosexual since I was about 12 or 13. And I went and visited him. And his partner never gave us any time together, just kind of hovered to make sure that I guess I didn't say anything he didn't approve of. And one of the things that I was able to do is just tell him, you know, I'm here because I want to talk to you about really the most important thing. And that is, you know, you're obviously dying and you're going to have to face, you're going to have to face God. And I want to talk to you about how to face him safely. your sins forgiven. The minute I mentioned sins, the partner said, you're talking about our homosexuality. And I said, yes, and your greed and your lust and your covetousness and whatever else. It's not just one sin you need to be forgiven of in order to get to heaven. You need to be forgiven of all of your sins. And although I do believe that homosexuality is not like other sins in one sense, there is another profound sense that if we violate one point of the law, we have broken the entirety of the law and we stand guilty, liable before our judge. And so a homosexual person is not just a homosexual person. And so they need to hear a gospel that addresses all of their sins, their sinful condition, their sinful behavior, and they need to hear a gospel that is really good news. And so that's my story. Amen. Yeah, just another thought. I think we sometimes I think that the best mission strategy is to reshape the gospel for every different target audience that there is out there. And while contextualization is valid, it can be overplayed. Because the fact of the matter is we're all human, we all have the same basic needs, and we all sin. And we all need a Savior. So there's a sense in which the gospel just cuts across all cultures, including a homosexual culture. So this isn't different in one sense, it's just another way that people have sinned and have related together in their sin. I mean, I think of a ministry that I've had a few times in Romania to the gypsies. I mean, these are thieves. I mean, good grief, they're very skilled at stealing. But you minister to them the same way you do everybody else, and that is talk about their real need, which is you're going to face a holy God on the day of judgment. And if you have undealt with sin, then you're going to be judged for that. So what you need is a Savior who's paid it all. And so, I don't know, I think this, like other things, we can build it up in our minds that this is such a big deal to know just the right thing to say because they're homosexual or something else. And the fact of the matter is they are just people. who need the same gospel we have. Go ahead, John. I was just going to say, it's encouraging to me, believing in God's sovereignty and salvation, that in one sense, we can't mess it up. If God is at work, we communicate the truth, the gospel in love, and God is going to do the work. And He's even going to use our half-efforts to get the person to the right place. And if the person is not being drawn, no matter how clever we are, it's not going to work. I mean, God's word doesn't return void. So it's comfort. I just want to throw one thing out there, too, and I'll just be brief. when we start asking questions, how do I share the gospel with a homosexual person, or how do I share the gospel with an LGBTQ person, right? In a sense, we have at that point started to accept part of their worldview. We've started to accept, which is, I am completely identified by my sexuality. Nobody says, how do you share the gospel with a heterosexual person? Right? I mean, you don't. And so I think that in one sense, like what Bruce is saying, we can build this up so big that we're just buying into their narrative, which in some ways is a false narrative. I am not simply defined by my sexuality. Within the church, is someone truly saved who professes faith in Christ and goes to church, yet refuses to leave a homosexual lifestyle? Say that again. Is someone truly saved who professes faith in Christ and goes to church, yet refuses to leave a homosexual lifestyle? Well, that's 1 Corinthians 6, that if you are living in unrepentant sin, you will not inherit the kingdom of God. So, that would be a very bad sign. Now, can we and do we as Christians sin in many ways? I can't remember which one said that the seed of all manner of sin still remains within our unredeemed heart, our flesh, and so we're capable of sin. But if you are in a flagrant, sinful lifestyle, That is not the fruit of real salvation. And that should be a big warning. And of course, as Brian said, there's in that list in 1 Corinthians 6, 9, and 10, there's all manner of sin. So it's not just homosexual sin. If you're in any one of those, or any unrepentant sin, that's a bad sign for your salvation. Now, I live in a place where many people have made professions of faith in Christ as children. In fact, in the South, if you go to a funeral in the South, all you have to do to go to heaven is die, you would think, because you listen to the way that people are described in the South, and it's like, oh, I know they've been living for the devil for the last 50 or 60 years, but that revival meeting when they were a kid and they walked forward, that took care of it all. And you go, I don't think that's what a real changed life looks like. And of course, if you are in an unrepentant, sinful lifestyle, as long as you can hear my voice, there is hope for you to repent and to join in that happy next verse. Verse 11, such were some of you, but you were washed, you were changed, you were sanctified by the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen. Related to that, and I think worth broadening the scope, is how should we respond to those who profess faith within the church, yet live in habitual sexual sin? And so that would be broader, of course, than just a homosexual lifestyle. What actions should be taken? Well, I mean, if they're in a local church and they're unrepentant, then it's the responsibility of that local church to actually exercise biblical church discipline on that person. So if you have a person and they've been warned, that they need to repent, that they cannot continue on. And we're not talking about people that are struggling with sin and battling and they hate their sin. We're talking about people that have just given in and just say, this is what I am or this is what I do. Then the church needs to actually step in and really The most loving thing that a church can do is exercise church discipline for someone who is wayward, someone who is living in a way that the Bible says those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. It is unloving for us to actually say, you know what, we realize that you have a hard life or you have this addiction or you… are this kind of person, and so we're fine with that. That's unloving. It's loving to tell people the truth. Just to reinforce that, you know, Paul in Galatians 5, I warned you before, as I forewarned you before, you know, so there is this pastoral obligation that is hardly ever carried out nowadays to say the sort of thing Brian just said. Because we all live in a culture where we like to say things that people like to hear. And maybe it's always been that way, but it seems like it's even more so now. But this is not the right way to go for people in Christian leadership. They have to speak the truth. Now, they do it in love. You do it for the motivation of wanting to see that person repent and come back. I mean, it's for the salvation of their souls, but nonetheless, it has to be proclaimed. The warnings are real. Yeah, if you really believe that this is the means that the Lord Jesus has established to rescue sinners from patterns of unrepentance, then how could we not? John, this one is specifically directed to you, and brothers, please jump in afterward if you're interested. How can you compassionately respond to someone who says, I knew I was given the wrong body since I was a child, and now, I suppose, in the climate of our culture with its level of acceptance, now I am seen as normal and not a freak anymore? Well, there's nothing that you can say that's going to be true that will be perceived as compassionate, most likely, if a person is hardened to that degree. But I think that it is very kind and compassionate to speak the truth and to say, that's not true. Even no matter how you feel, that's not true. If three or four other people in the culture, in the community tell you it's true, that doesn't change the fact that two plus two equals four. Your experience does not change truth. And truth is in the Bible. And truth is in nature and biology in this case. And we need to believe what's true however we feel. And I wouldn't mind saying We live in a fallen world. There are feelings and experiences and temptations that's just not the way it was created to be. And so I don't doubt that you're having these feelings, but it's not true. And you can't act like it's true when it's not. I mean, it's not different in kind from other ways that people might be born with inclinations in a sinful direction toward anger, toward alcohol addiction, toward a murderous heart, and that sort of thing. I mean, there are people who are born with higher inclinations in those kinds of directions, and I don't think the solution is to find a community who will affirm their murderous anger problem and say, you just need to own that as your own and express it. I mean, so there are, you know, there's other areas where you realize, boy, that's exactly the wrong way to go. Well, why is this different? And of course our conviction is, it's not different because God's design is for men to be men and women to be women and for a man to marry a woman and the likes. So it's just calling people back to the goodness and the beauty and the wisdom of God's design that has been messed up by sin. So it's a, yeah, I think that's the loving thing to do is to help them see that. Now whether they'll see it, you're right, is a whole nother issue, but that's what we're called to do. How did first to third century Christians respond to these kinds of LGBT issues? So this is something of a historical theology question. So how is the early church handling these sorts of issues? My first thought is, the early church handled it by writing 1 Corinthians 6. That is the early church. I think that John is right in the sense that the New Testament itself is so profoundly counter-cultural to first-century Greco-Roman ethics. And I just recently preached a couple sermons on 1 Thessalonians 4, 1 to 8. When Paul talks about that this is God's will for you, your sanctification, that each one would know how to control and possess his vessel. I actually think that Paul's using a euphemism there for the male organ, for vessel. And in Thessalonica, even though it may not have been any more sexually immoral than any other first century Mediterranean city, there were phallic symbols all over Thessalonica. And it was, it was one of those things where, um, here was, here was what was acceptable. Sex within marriage was for procreation. Sex with prostitutes and whoever else was for recreation. That's the very culture that the Thessalonians are saved out of, where they turn from idols to serve the living and true God. And so what Paul says there is profoundly countercultural. And then at the end, he turns around and he says, and he who rejects this is not rejecting man, but God who gives his Holy Spirit. the very Holy Spirit that can actually help you control your vessel. And so I feel bad for the contemporary church where whenever we capitulate to culture because we think somehow we're going to make a bigger difference for the gospel, and the reality is is that the way that we make a bigger difference for the gospel is by lovingly standing for truth, which is going to be increasingly countercultural. So I did a little bit of background reading about the first century world and apparently in the Roman Empire, it was so bad. In addition to what Brian just said, you had religious overtones with the temple prostitutes and that male prostitution with males was taxed. in such a way that it was a huge revenue stream for Caesar. And so for Paul to speak directly, like, this is the will of God, your sexual purity. If you go to these temple prostitutes, if you commit these acts of immorality, you're not a Christian. I mean, that wasn't just countercultural. That's tapping into Caesar's revenue stream. That's denying the religious views of the day blatantly and flagrantly. So the cost was even more extreme to take a stand for biblical morality. It could be a life and death stand just to affirm the things that we kind of take for granted as the biblical teaching. What biblical instruction would you give to married men battling against inappropriate extramarital lust? Repent. And what else would you say after that? Repent. I have something to add to that. If that's permissible. So here's what I would say is read Thomas Chalmers, The Expulsive Power of a New Affection, or just learn about it. So the best defense is an aggressive offense. That usually catches guys' attention, you know, it's a sports metaphor. So, you know, Thomas Chalmers' sermon, the main point of it was you can't get rid of your love for the world by simply telling yourself how bad it is or even how destructive it is. It could ruin my marriage. I could lose my job. The reason that doesn't work is because if you try to push it out of your life for that reason, because you have loved it, because it has provided some satisfaction to you, you can't stand being empty of it for very long. You go right back to it. So the only way that it will work to actually push it out of your life is to bring something into your life that is better. So that's the title, the expulsive power of a new affection. It's like if I had a glass of water, I guess I have a bottle here, but a glass of water, there's two ways to empty water from a glass, two fundamental ways. You can empty the glass, you can drink it, you could pour it out, you could siphon it out, you could let it evaporate, and you leave the glass empty. Glasses don't mind being empty, but we do. We do. So here's the other way you can empty water from a glass. You can fill it with something weightier. denser, richer than water, say liquid mercury. You fill it with something greater, and when you filled it with something greater, what was there before is expulsed, right? So the water's gone because it's filled with something better. So this is really, this is Paul in Philippians 3, isn't it? Whatever was gained to me, I consider as loss. More than that, I consider all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus, my Lord. So that's what I would encourage as far, I mean, as important as an accountability structure and kind of the defensive things that we encourage, and they're all good. There's nothing wrong with that. But ultimately, they'll fail. Thank you. If we don't, in fact, pursue Christ. You have four Gospels. Guess why? The Father wants you to know His Son. He wants you to look at Him carefully and marvel at His wisdom, His compassion, His righteousness, His faithfulness, and be changed by that. So I think that's, you know, I think that's ultimately what it takes for a guy to get over this. There's all kinds of things you can say about this, though. Cultivating a relationship with your wife. How do you get those new affections? Pursuing the spiritual disciplines. Being part of a healthy church. Being around other guys. The Bible says, he who walks with wise men will be wise, but the companion of fools will suffer harm. Who are you hanging out with? Are you hanging out with guys that are encouraging you and pushing you toward Christ and toward faithfulness within your marriage? I love Heath Lambert's book, Finally Free, on sexual purity. It's so good. So good. And obviously there's a lot more you can say about that. You touched on the second part of the question, actually, which is in that situation where the husband is struggling, how would you counsel a wife attempting to honor God within that marriage and help her husband? It's hard because so many guys struggle. That's just where so many people live. But again, there's so much you can say. A lady is to trust God, is to look to God. Talk to her husband about it and challenge him. God has put you in your husband's life to be his helper. And if this is a massive area of sin and temptation, help him by speaking the truth in love. You do it respectfully, but you still do it. It's not a good thing just to say, okay, he's looking at pornography again. I just better try to win him without a word." Winning without a word in 1 Peter 3 is for unbelievers. If you've got a professing believer as a husband. And so then if there's no response, then you want to get your elders involved at the church. God has given other authorities. And so, again, it's such a big issue. I would certainly say that's not something you just want to hear an answer from a panel. It's something you want to talk to your pastor about. Brothers, would you add anything to that? Repent. Amen. Given the separation of church and state, and given that there are only religious disagreements with the LGBT lifestyle, is it reasonable to try to legislate that form of morality in our current government system? Why don't you answer that one? They paid big bucks for you guys, not for me. I mean, it's really important to say all laws are moral. It's just what morality? That is an absolute joke where people say, well, you're just trying to legislate morality. Everyone legislates morality. It's just what morality? People now are trying to legislate immorality. So, you know, our form of government, you know, there's an extreme, right, of the different views of the founding of the country. Some people make the founding fathers Bible characters. That's not good. Others turn them into just total pagan deists. Well, that's not right either. The answer is somewhere in between. It was actually kind of a mixed group in many ways. But while everyone has different opinions about the level of Christianity in the founding of our country, nobody disagrees about the Christian morality. Even Thomas Jefferson, who chopped out all of the miracles of the New Testament, left all of the morals of the New Testament. as inconsistent as that was, but they knew that if we didn't have morality, Christian morality, in the fabric of our country, we were gonna have a very tough time at making a republic work. So it's, I mean, in every way, it is a blessing to the United States of America that real morality is reflected in our laws. not just the whims of the cultural avalanche. I mean, I think that we need to recognize that the minute that we say that LBGT issues, that the only differences that exist are within, are religious differences, that what we're doing is we are We are opening the floodgate for things that will have incredible impact on our culture. So, back in the 90s, you might remember the Supreme Court issued a ruling on Texas, Texas' anti-sodomy laws. Justice Scalia was one of the few dissenting justices in that opinion. And he made it very clear that if the court takes this state law into its hands to overturn it, that it will open up a floodgate. Well, that's exactly what's happened. So when we think about the legislation regarding these issues, what we need to understand is that we have, Supreme Court might hear a decision on polygamy, okay? There are university professors and even I've heard in the new DSM-5, which is Diagnostic Statistical Manual that psychologists use to diagnose people, that pedophilia is being considered now as an orientation. What we need to understand is that there is really no such thing as just religious differences. Now, I don't suspect that we'll be able to change the laws. I just don't. I don't think that we'll ever see Roe versus Wade overturned. I don't think that we'll ever come back to a place that would see same-sex marriage as now against the law. But that doesn't mean that the only difference is a religious difference, and that is, I think it's a deadly way to think, because in some cases the slippery slope argument is true. Just one more comment, and that is, I mean, we're all citizens of this country and we have a right to support, every one of us does, a right to support what we believe is best. And so it just should not be the case that any particular proposal is ruled out of order because other groups don't think it's the right way to go, you know? So, goodness, they're they're being very forceful about conservatives, aren't they? that opportunity. So we should exercise our voice and our vote as God so moves us. I'm aware of the fact that only some, though, are called to be sort of front lines on this battle. I think of a guy like Russ Moore, who used to be at Southern Seminary with me there. He was my former student, who's now the president of the ERLC. What does that stand for? Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission. I mean, boy, he's a front lines guy who is just facing so many things and he's good at it. Al Mohler, my president, he's very much kind of up on a lot of things that are taking place. So some people are taking leadership in it in ways that not all of us can. But we can hear from them and try to move together in ways that would advance, endeavor to advance a biblical morality. I agree with Brian, it probably is not going to happen. I mean, I suspect we're in Romans 1 as a country. I don't know that. God hasn't told me that. I don't know. But I just suspect we are, or God is giving us over to the sin of our culture. But, you know, that doesn't mean we can't try and shouldn't try. So I think that's the right thing to do, leaving it in God's hands, though. I just would want to also add, though, God can turn this around. Now, that doesn't mean He will. We don't know His mind. We don't know exactly what's going on. But there's an out-of-print book that's called something like The State of England Before Wesley and Whitefield. And the culture of England in the early 1700s was abysmal and morally every bit as awful and worse than what we're dealing with. And God showed up in the Great Awakening. And God can do that again. What would prevent him from doing that? It's not us having a protest to get the old western town saloon shut down. It's the Holy Spirit blowing through town, everybody being converted, and nobody going to the saloon. It's done. We didn't have to do pickets and protests and that kind of thing. It's the Holy Spirit showing up. You know, real revival is when God blesses the ordinary means of ministry, preaching of the Word, prayer, our personal ministry, in extraordinary ways. And so I think that is our hope. And I'm an optimist. And my eschatology is kind of sloppy. So I'm around some optimistic guys that think it's all going to get, the Lord's going to send a great revival. Maybe. I don't know. I want to believe that. I may die happy, you know, even if it doesn't go like that. But why not have confidence that our sovereign God may well choose to send another awakening on our land? Because we desperately need it. He has done it before. It's not something we can manufacture. Our job is to do the ordinary means of ministry faithfully and trust that God would send the Spirit to do a great work of grace. Amen. Bruce, this question's for you, and there's some real depth here that you may, in fact, have to explain to us before you answer the question. So, here it goes. In Dr. Oliphant's contribution to the work One God, Three Persons, he says that God's decisions, and specifically relating to the incarnation, are essential to him. And this would imply that God has only one will, and the Son could not have another by which he would eternally submit. So if I understand correctly, this contradicts the exact analogy you draw between marriage and the Trinity. How would you respond to this argument from simplicity? Yeah, what's behind this question is the the consensus of what's called the pro-Nicene church fathers, the people who were favorable toward the Nicene Creed and the Constantinople Creed that amplified it at 381, that because God is one, one God, that located in the nature of God is the will of God, And the work of God all comes from the one power of God, which is part of the nature of God, or it's an attribute of the nature of God. And so you have one undivided will and indivisible work of God. That's all fine, but there has to be also a recognition, as there was by those same early church theologians, that even though the work of God is inseparable and is the outworking of one will, that doesn't mean that the work of God is indistinguishable. There's a difference between being separated and distinguishing aspects of one will. And of course, because if you press the inseparable unity themes hard, you end up with Unitarianism. Then what are you saying about the Father distinctively and not the Son? And the answer is nothing because they're all exactly the same. But of course we know they're not, because the Father sends the Son, He doesn't send Himself. I mean, there's a very clear example, right? The Son becomes incarnate, the Father does not. And so there has to be distinguishable aspects of the one will of God. And so I think this is my model. I think it works well. It really does tie into what the early church through the first six centuries kind of formulated over time, and that is that the The will of God has a volitional capacity as that which can will is in the nature of God, but persons activate that volitional capacity. So the person of the Father, the person of the Son, the person of the Holy Spirit, as it were, utilize that will just like they utilize the knowledge that is within the nature of God, the power that is within the nature of God, In order to function as persons, they do the same thing with that volitional capacity. So there are expressions of the One Will that are distinctive to Father and Son and Spirit, while those distinctive expressions unite to form the One Will. That's the way I would put it. And the same thing could be said of the so-called inseparable operations, that they are inseparable, but they're not indistinguishable. So there are aspects of that inseparable work that the Father does, the Son does, the Spirit does, and they unite together in jointly producing the one work of God. So it's a way to honor both the oneness and unity of the one God and the distinctiveness of the three persons both need to be honored because the Bible certainly does. And I think that's a way to do it. So that's how I would go. That's how I would go too. Same here, right? And actually, I was sort of delighted to see there are a number of questions related to what you were teaching on the Trinity. And I think for the sake of proportion, I'm going to attempt to mash them together here. And you can go whatever direction seems best. More than one person seems to have very much taken note of how you were describing the Holy Spirit. in the Trinity, and there was both how you described there could be a possible analogy between children and their parents, and the Holy Spirit being sent by the Father and Son, and then just wondering how the Holy Spirit's role in the Trinity has any sort of implication for either the family or the church. There's a number of directions that I imagine you could go there, and you can decide what's best. Right. My comment in regard to the the family structure and the Trinitarian structure is just looking at how the early church came up with their understanding of what they called the eternal relations of origin or the modes of subsistence, that is, how are the Trinitarian persons related and what they What they formulated that has been held as orthodoxy through the whole of the church is that the Father is the only person who is unbegotten and non-proceeding. I mean, He is ingenerate. He's not generated by anyone else. He's ingenerate, but He generates, begets the Son, and then Father and Son together bring forth the Spirit, breathing the Spirit, And so you have this model then that does, as it were, match what you see in family. I'm not doing really more than just acknowledging that it does seem to be an interesting match in light of the fact that God uses the plural in Genesis 126, let us make man in our image. And so you have the husband, the wife under his, and in fact, even in Genesis 2, she comes from him. You know, in a sense that parallels also the son is begotten from the father, and then the spirit proceeds from both. And again, it's through husband and wife, father and mother that the child comes. So I just see that as a parallel. Other people have seen this over the years. It's not anything new to me, but I think it's a striking parallel. Now, as far as the Holy Spirit and the family or... Family and or church. Can you just probably clarify the idea that the generation of the Son is an eternal generation and the procession of the Spirit is an eternal procession. It's not as if the Son or the Spirit have a starting point. That's right. Yeah, I mean, this is really hard for some people to grasp. It's hard for me to grasp, to be honest with you, because it's something that we have no human analogy for. It really, truly is a mystery. You have to remember that the early church theologians were fending off Arianism, Arius, who proposed the view that the son was the first created being of the father. And one of the phrases that was used a lot among the Arians concerning the son was, there was a time when he was not. of the Son. And the Council of Nicaea met, and when they met and proposed this doctrine of the eternal begetting of the Son, they were doing that to counter the view that there was a time when the Son came into being. So the begetting is not anything that ever happens in time. It eternally is true. So the Son is eternally the Son of the Father because He's eternally begotten by the Father. Athanasius and others at Nicaea believed that that was the grounding for affirming that the son is homoousius. He is of the same nature as the father. Why? Because he's eternally begotten of the father, but it's an eternal nature. So in the Nicaean Creed, he's begotten, not made. eternally begotten of the Father but not made." So that's what they meant, and the same basic concept applies to the Spirit as proceeding for the Father and the Son eternally. Did I do it? That's good. Brothers, can you weigh in on what are biblically appropriate female leadership roles within the church? Why don't we just go and each one tell what their own respective churches do? Why don't we go ahead and just have each one describe what they do in their respective churches? There you go. Well, yeah, at our church we believe that women are wonderful and great and can have all kinds of great ministries in the church, but they can't teach or exercise authority over men, and so we don't have ladies teaching mixed groups of men and women, and we don't have ladies being elders in the church. But they teach other ladies, they teach kids, and have vital roles of personal ministry throughout the church. So anyway, other people make all kinds of little distinctions, but we're very happy with that. I would echo what John said, and that is if it weren't for the women of the church, the church would die. Women are so vital for the ministry of the church. They often are the prayer warriors. They're the servants. They're the ones that do all kinds of things, and they're gifted. We would believe that women are equally gifted. It's not as if men are more gifted. We have different roles and responsibilities, and so here, We would say that the office of elder is reserved for qualified men, and we would make the same qualification as John based on 1 Timothy 2.12, that women would not teach or exercise authority over men. It's not because we're anti-women. It's because we believe that this is part of the created order. This is Paul's rationale for why he says what he says. We also, just as you know, and I know there might be some disagreement about this, we don't have female deacons. We have phenomenal deacons' wives who are every bit as good and sometimes exponentially better than their deacon husbands. But, and we believe, and we've never had this, we've never had this as a controversial issue in our church. But I think that that's because God has given us a people that their minds are subject to the word of God, so. Well, goodness, our church in Louisville, Kentucky is very much the same. really want to hold firmly to what the Bible says in terms of what women are not to do. So as these gentlemen have said, not elders, not preaching, not teaching mixed adult Sunday school classes. But in every way we can, we want to include them in ministry. just to make a statement even publicly to people that women are encouraged to be involved. So we have women reading scripture at our services as often as men. We kind of do it pretty much 50-50. And we have women involved in the distribution of the elements in the Lord's Supper. uh... we we have women involved in uh... uh... greeting ministry and india different ways in which they kind of meet meet the public as it were you know what they mean meet the church folks as they come and uh... and when we do have women deacons we we believe uh... that first timothy to three and three uh... verse eleven i believe it is uh... is best understood as as women deacons rather than wives of deacons, but we can agree to disagree on that, agreeably. This is not a point of major contention by any means, but that's where we have come down in our exegesis at Clifton. Functionally, though, it probably doesn't make a lot of difference. The main thing it might do is simply acknowledge publicly and certain women in the office of deaconess that, in the same way we acknowledge the men who have that particular office, and it's good to acknowledge them as leaders in that. And of course they function, as Deaconess says, in ways that are appropriate. I mean, we have a ton of newborn babies in our church. So we have women who lead the diaconal responsibility of providing meals. for the homes of those people where babies come, and visiting hospitals, and that sort of thing. In greeting ministry, we have a woman as well as a man, deacon and deaconess, both in terms of greeting and so on. There are ways in which it's appropriate for a woman to be involved and don't violate elder principles ever. So that's how we've gone with it. But I think the principle, even if you don't have that, the principle of wanting to utilize all of the people's gifts, including women's gifts, to the full extent we can, is what we ought to try to see happen in our churches. So we've got two last questions. One that is just raised in the trickiest sorts of situations, and I think many people don't know what to do with it. It's what if someone is born a hermaphrodite? How do you know which gender to raise them? I don't know. I mean, I wouldn't even know what percentage of the population is born, I would imagine it's probably marginal or infinitesimal, I don't know. But boy, I have no idea. So we brought John for that question. What do you say, John? I agree with Brian. No, I think that's what we were talking about. It's not the way it was supposed to be in the original design. I think it's a result of the fall, and it's just a very sad and difficult situation. Thankfully, it's extremely rare, and yet it's real. It happens. And so difficult choices are made. And I haven't had to, we haven't had that experience in our church. You know, I think sometimes questions like that, not that whoever wrote that, please don't take this as a slap at you. Please don't. But I do think sometimes questions like that are gotcha questions, where the main point of it is really to say, aha. You know, if you can't handle that one, then your whole position is bankrupt. And I just don't think that's fair, because everybody would acknowledge it's a rare exception. And, I mean, on so many ethical issues, There's clarity on the main things, right? But there are almost always little bundles of really difficult ones that you just are not quite sure what to do with. So it's not unique to this issue. It's true with almost any ethical issue you look at. Divorce, remarriage, are you ever going to have one that you wonder, hmm, wow, what do we do with that? Oh my, yes. And so it just is a tough one. And I don't know what to do with it either. All right, in closing, and thank you everyone for your questions, and if your question was not answered, I encourage you, we have our brothers here, and you can come up and bend their ear, and see if you can get some more clarity on what you were interested in. In closing, I'd like to ask each one of you if you could give either a point or two of counsel for how you would like to see Christians better engage these times. Go ahead, Brian. You're so nice. If I could give two bits of counsel, that's what... One or two. One or two. I'll give two. The first, and I'm serious about this, I would encourage everybody to read Rosaria Butterfield's book, The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert. And I think that it's an important book for us to read. For those of you, if you don't know her story, you should. She was a tenured literature professor at Syracuse. And she was also the mentor for the LBGT groups on campus. And she herself identified as a lesbian. she tells how she came to Christ. And it is a powerful story, but it is an instructive story for us as Christians. She came to know Christ through the loving, patient relationship of a Presbyterian pastor and his wife. and it is a magnificent story of God's grace. It's a little weird, she throws in a chapter on singing the Psalms only, but it's a nice chapter. But read the book because it's helpful to see where, because she writes coming out of that world. And then the second thing that I would say is be determined to be both loving and faithful. I say loving because obviously we need to love people for Christ's sake. But faithful too because sometimes when we start loving people who are very different than us, sometimes our own convictions can start to erode. Sometimes we start to wonder, if you think about the way that people look at big issues, they may have these big sweeping convictions, and what ends up changing them actually are meeting individual people, right? In some ways, that's wonderful, but in some ways, as Christians, we need to be on guard. and we need to realize that we're going to meet some very nice people who are in that community and identify themselves that way, and therefore we need to be faithful to the gospel and never lose sight of the fact that they need a Savior just as sure as we do. and they need to repent of their sins just as sure as we do. And so be loving and faithful and keep the gospel right there in front of your face all the time. Yeah, I would say it's When the culture is giving you a message going against the Bible and against God's will and God's word, and even if it's not totally in your face, but it's just subtly all the time, it's good not to just float in the current without thinking about it and evaluating it. And this little current is picking up steam. And so I think that our gathering together this weekend to think seriously about some of these things is a very good thing to do. To just go, oh, right. That's right. That is what the Bible teaches. That's right and true. It's good just to be reminded of that. And I think Couple of the books that have been mentioned, Dr. Moeller's book, We Cannot Be Silent, is very clear thinking, very good help. And I also really appreciate his podcast, The Briefing, where day by day, he walks through the news of the day from a Christian worldview. And it's about 20, 22 minutes long, and if you've got You can listen to it at one and a half speed if you're really mentally engaged, and you can get through that thing in less than 15 minutes. And you will be encouraged at just clear thoughts. All right, that's a better way to think about this. Okay. And that's just good equipping. So, good to be equipped. And even though some of these things we don't want to talk about, we don't like to, it's uncomfortable, it's good to be refreshed and go, right, that is what the Bible teaches. And then secondly, don't lose hope. I've really appreciated a number of you that have come up and said, thanks for putting that in your talks. And it's true, if you just focus on it, it can feel ominous. Don't lose hope, don't lose hope. Christ did not go back into the grave. Amen. Well, I'll just have one, and that is, I worry about the frog in the kettle phenomenon, right? You know, the analogy I'm referring to, you put a frog in the kettle and turn the gas oven on, and the water gets hotter and hotter, and the frog doesn't even know it. And I just think this is what's happening in culture Christianity in the United States. You know, John and I both live more in the South, and it used to be so biblically saturated. But, oh my goodness, they're caving on all these things just as rapidly. I mean, I think it was Nashville, Vanderbilt University that was the first, this is the buckle of the Bible Belt, you know, Nashville, Tennessee. It was Vanderbilt University that was the first one to throw religious groups off campus, you know, because they didn't hold to all of the gender inclusive ideas and all the rest. So it's just really amazing to see how quickly those who have identified themselves as Christians are going with the culture. And hence, how really important it is for us not to be one of those frogs. in the kettle, right? But the only way that's going to happen, because it's on the news, it's in the media, it's in movies, it's on television, and so we can get so saturated in it that we don't even recognize that things are moving in that way. I mean, my wife and I even have this experience when we visit Portland, Oregon, where she grew up. I fear that many of the Christians, even in conservative churches there in Portland, have gone further to the left in compromising, and they're not even aware of it. I see it coming in, but they're just so much a part of the culture that they can't see it. So, what's the remedy or the antidote to that? Spending a lot of time in God's Word, saturating yourself with truth, So you really can't see the difference between what God's Word says, what we are called to, and what the culture is putting forward. There's no other way that we're going to hang on as Christians, given the pressures that are mounting. So God help us to be faithful to His Word and faithful to Him, and go out in glory, you know? I mean, if that's what is the end for our lives, so be it. Go out with a smile glorifying God and upholding the gospel of Christ. And then we will be with Him forever. Oh my, what a great day that will be. Amen. Thank you, brothers. To give you just, again, your forecast for the rest of the weekend, we continue tomorrow. We have three more blessed sessions with these brothers. At 9 a.m. tomorrow, Bruce is going to be tackling evangelical feminism and Christian homosexuality, and that will be at 9 a.m., not 9.30, like this morning was. For AM service, John will be preaching on, is the gospel big enough for the LGBT movement? And then in the second service after lunch, we will have a last session with Bruce saying, where do we go from here? Which is where he manages to summarize every single thing we discussed in one brief teaching. Yes. All right. With that, I'm going to close us in prayer. Thank you so much for staying. Amen. Our Father, we are humbled. We are humbled by how much we are called to. We are humbled by living in these times. We are humbled before you. And truly, though we are small, we are so grateful that you are great, that you are glorious, that you are abundantly able to handle all that this world is throwing against your Word and against your truth. We thank you for the hope that we have in Jesus Christ, our Lord. We thank you for the truth that we have in your Word, and we pray that we would be faithful to these times. We pray that we would be clear-thinking, We pray that we would be loving, and we pray that we would stand firm where you have called us to stand firm. Lord, please help your people, and we know you will. We pray this in Jesus' name. Amen. We hope you've enjoyed this message from Grace Community Church in Minden, Nevada. To receive a copy of this or other messages, call us at area code 775-782-6516 or visit our website gracenevada.com.