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Well, good afternoon and welcome
to another edition of Confessing Our Hope, the podcast of Greenville
Presbyterian Theological Seminary. As usual, I'm your host, William
Hill, and this is The day, well actually it's two days before
things really get nutso, if that's a good word to use. It's probably
not a strong enough word, but anyway, be that as it may, it's
two days away from when classes start here at Greenville Seminary. And as a student and the host
of this program, also doing IT work around the seminary, you
can just imagine what my life is like right now. Things are
a little crazy, but that's okay. I'm thankful for the time that
I have today carved out in my schedule to sit down and talk
with a man who has written a book that I think is something that
we all, especially as fathers, but not just fathers, need to
take very seriously, especially in the climate and the culture
we live in, the world we live today. And we'll be talking with
this man in just a minute. As usual, you can find out more
information about the podcast. Those who listen faithfully every
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more information about Greenville Seminary, you can find us on
the web at gpts.edu. There you'll find out all the
information about our academic programs, professors, and so
forth. If the website doesn't answer
your question, write us at info at gpts.edu. Now as indicated, we'll be talking
with a man who has, he's both a pastor and an author, has written
a book on the topic of family worship. The topic of the book
is one that we really need to give due attention to. As I read
through the book, I reflected on my own failures in this area
as a father. Those of you who listen all the
time know I have three grown children and this is one of those
things that I wrestled with pretty often as a dad and hopefully
we'll deal with some of those things as we talk with this author.
We'll be speaking with Jason and I'm going to say his name
wrong. I knew I would So, Jason, why don't you tell us who you
are, and that'll kick me right off the hook, and then we'll
just launch right into this. Well, that might be easier. My
name is Jason Kolopolis, and I'm an assistant pastor at University
Reform Church in East Lansing, Michigan, ordained in the PCA,
and it's my pleasure to be with you today, Bill. I appreciate
you having me. Great. Yes, thank you. And I really, I sat down
and started reading the book last week, and I really appreciated
it, and as I was telling you off-air, I identified almost
immediately in the beginning of the book when you talked about
people who struggle with this subject in the actual, they don't
always struggle with the subject so much as they struggle with
the actual doing of the subject where people would start, stop,
and that was pretty much characterized my children's growing up years
in our home. And even now with just my wife,
it's still the same kind of struggle that goes on. The flesh wins
more than it should in this area. But the title of the book, for
those who are wondering, is A Neglected Grace, Family Worship in the
Christian Home. And so we'll be speaking with
Jason on this. So Jason, I've got to ask, you
know, the million-dollar question, of course, is what was going
on behind the scenes that drove you to sit down and put the time
in to write a book of this nature? Yeah, I think it's a lot of what
you just said about your own struggle. As I sat down to write
the book, there were two primary groups that I had in mind. One
was those that just hadn't thought about family worship before,
hadn't maybe even heard of it, haven't engaged in it, and just
needed a good argument as to why to begin engaging in family
worship. But probably even more so, I
wrote it for the second group of people in which you mentioned
belonging to yourself and many people that I've ministered to
through the years is those that are convicted say, yeah, I think
family worship would be a good thing to practice at home and
it's something that we want to do, but just not quite sure how
to go about it and I think are oftentimes running around with
guilt and it just feels like one more thing to add to the
plate. So I wanted to hopefully help stimulate the discussion
and kind of stoke the fires of the conversation about family
worship by writing a book that not only gave the biblical case
for it, and I think a theological argument for it, but also just
helped come alongside of parents that are struggling to implement
it and how to do it, and I think to relieve some of that guilt
that's often associated with it and just encourage that this
is really a wonderful means of grace to be practiced in the
home and just encourage parents along those lines. Yeah, that's
very helpful and I think as I read the book, I got that tone, the
tone I think you set out to present in the beginning where you came
right out and said, you know, this is not one of those guilt
books, you know, books to lay guilt on, even though I'll be
honest with you, I in some sense felt a little guilty as I'm reading
it and maybe for all the right reasons, but Can't do anything
about it now, of course, and that with my kids, but it was
written in such a way that not only just said that this is something
you should do and do it, but you supported it first in the
first half of the book, really I think the first three chapters,
with good solid biblical framework and then launched into the particulars
of the actual thing. And I want to go through, if
we can briefly, kind of work our way through those first few
chapters where you really start out where, and I've read other
family worship books before, this isn't the first one I've
ever read, but I don't think I've ever read one that started
in this way. You know, usually launched into the historical
precedent for family worship and it's been done throughout
our church history. This came out in a very different format.
It came out with the idea of who we are and what we're here
to do. God's creatures. And so that was your first chapter,
and I'm intrigued as to the beginning there, and you didn't just jump
into the subject. You started really with the idea
that we're created in the image of God to worship. We're worshipful
creatures. Can you elaborate maybe a little
on that chapter, and why did you start there and maybe not
on the topic specific? Yeah, as we think about family
worship, often the the cases that we approach it as some kind
of isolated individual, I don't know, entity, I guess, that we're
doing in our own homes, and I wanted to set it in the context of all
of life. So as we think about why we were
created and why God formed Adam from the dust of the ground,
it was primarily to be a worshipper of him, to live all the days
of his life as this one who would offer his body as a living sacrifice,
as Paul says in Romans 12, and unto God in his daily labors,
and his relationship with his wife, and his governing of creation. So I think as we think about
why we were created to be worshipers, and then if we think about us
as Christians, the reason we're recreated in Christ and born
again is, again, to be worshipers. Paul will say there in 1 Corinthians
that whether we eat or drink, whatever we do, we are to do
to the glory of God. We are worshiping beings. That's
why we're created. That's why we're recreated. So
if we set that as the foundation, and then we look at that and
we say, yeah, all of life is to be an act of worship to God. And so as we think about that,
and then we think, That's a reality, and that is true, and yet it's
also true that it seems scripturally and theologically that God has
set aside specific spheres where we are to see worship practice
and implement it. As I talk about in the book,
I think the three main spheres of worship that we see are corporate
worship, where the Church gathers together as a body, we have been
knitted together in Christ, and So we come together to offer
worship to God. There's also that secret or private
worship. Puritans often call it secret
worship. I think, you know, in our modern parlance today, people
call it, you know, our devotion times or those times that we
get away and we shut the door, as Christ talked about, and we
offer worship to God. individually. So those are the
two ends of the spectrum. Corporate worship, where we gather
together with the body, and secret worship, where I'm alone with
Christ in that inner chamber. And I think there's also that
sphere of family worship, where all those within the home gather
together and worship God, and that this marks our homes as
much as it marks our body life together, and as much as it marks
my individual life. So it should mark my family life. So we want to see our families,
those living under the same roof, gathering together to offer worship
to God. And I think, just to kind of
close this out, as we're talking about that, as we think about
those three spheres, they all inform one another and help us
to live this life of worship to God as we were created to
be and as we were recreated to be. these three spheres all inform
one another and help to inform a life that is truly a living
sacrifice unto God. So that's why one of the reasons
that I think family worship is crucial and important. It informs
my corporate worship. It informs my secret worship,
just as my secret worship and corporate worship inform my family
worship. Yeah, absolutely. As I was reading
that chapter and I was thinking about those things that you were
saying, clearly these elements are informing one another. They're
not isolated issues, so it's not as though our corporate worship
is lived off in a vacuum somewhere, or my private worship or secret
worship or daily devotions, whatever terms, phrases, what people want
to attach to it these days, isn't also lived in a vacuum. And then
family worship, again, isn't lived in a vacuum. These things
all have overlapping elements, which Strengthen them in fact
and not weaken each it helps support all three very nicely
but then you move into chapter two with Where I really live
as a person. I'm a very practical oriented
kind of guy and I need reasons for things I Mean, okay, you
can give me the rules, but I need to know why they're there. I
need to understand. Okay, that's the rule But why
is it a rule is it just because we have what we're good at making
up rules. I I'm a reason-oriented person. I don't suspect I'm alone in
that thought process. I really appreciated the chapter
that followed the foundational things, where you go into this
joyful responsibility and biblical encouragement in this aspect
of family worship. As you're driving towards the
particulars now, you're starting to demonstrate the practical
reasons for it. Give me a little background into,
if someone were to come up to you and say, okay, Pastor, You've
been preaching for weeks on family worship, and you know, I'm just
not convinced. Tell me why. Give me a reason, or reasons,
as the case may be, why we should do this. Yeah. You know, as we think about family
worship, and as you read, there are a few other books out there
that have dealt with it over the past, you know, 50 years. I think as we look at this, there
isn't a passage that we could point to and say, here we have
a command to spend 15 or 20 minutes and worship together as a family.
You're just not going to find that in the Scriptures. But what
you do find is that parents, and especially and particularly
fathers and husbands, are responsible for teaching the truths of God
and appointing their families unto the living God. And so,
as we look at that, whether that's Genesis 18 or whether that's
Deuteronomy 6, where we're told to speak of these things as we
lie down and as we rise up and as we walk along the way and
as we sit down, or whether it's, I think, one of the most foundational
passages regarding this, Psalm 78, where the psalmist is talking
about this testimony of God and what God has done and who He
is. how we are to pass these things
on to our children. We're not to hide them from our
children, but tell them to the coming generation that these,
what Father Solomon says, that these glorious deeds of the Lord
and of His might and the wonders that He has done, these are the
things that we are to pass on to our children and to the next
generation. But the crucial question becomes,
as we think about Deuteronomy 6 and as we think about Psalm
78, how does this happen? And I think, you know, it happens
as Deuteronomy 6 talks about, as we're walking along the way
and as we're sitting down, it happens in kind of these organic
kind of ways just as we're going through our day, but there's
an incredible benefit to having something that is regular, that
is consistent, that is happening every day, that we're gathering
together as a family to talk about God, to talk about what
He has done, and to pass these things along. As Paul says to
Timothy, this good deposit that has been given to you, this good
deposit that I have as a father and a husband, to have a regular,
consistent, daily time where I am passing this on to my children,
and I'm giving it to them, and I'm telling them who God is through
the Scriptures, and relaying to them what He has done, and
centering our home upon this. And I think we can talk about
doing it all kinds of other ways, but the reality is that if we
don't have something consistent and regular, that it becomes
very hard for it to be not only part of our lives, but the very
center of our home, the very center of what our home believes
and what it does. And it's clear, at least to me
historically and biblically, that family worship is one of
the chief means of accomplishing this within our families. I was
going to ask you as a way of possible objection to the subject,
well can't we teach our children these things of Scripture and
our precious faith in other means? Like if I'm driving down the
street, can I point out things that God's created? Can I teach
my children as we're walking down the road about the things
of the Lord. Why does it have to be a specific
time consistently organized on a daily basis? I mean, you somewhat
answered that question. I think there's the expectation
level that children begin to expect this time as a time of
instruction. But how would you respond to
that objection? I mean, when someone says, well,
you know, I do that, but I don't do it in this formal sense that
you just described. Yeah, I think it's two things.
I think the one is, and we want to encourage that, that perspective
of saying, look, when I'm going on a walk around the neighborhood
with my kids, I'm talking to them about the sunset that we're
seeing and that this is God's handiwork. And as we're playing
outside and enjoying one another, that we're reminding each other
that God has given each of us as a gift to each other. That
is wonderful, and that should be part of our life together
with our family and should be part of that dynamic living in
God. But it's also true that God has
given us means of grace. So as much as I want to do those
things and absolutely want to encourage them, I also want to
say that God has given us His Word, He has given us prayer,
He has given us song, He has given us these things as means
of grace. by which He communicates grace
to us, by which we dwell with Him, and by which we learn of
Him and enjoy Him. And so we want to absolutely
affirm that these organic kind of just every day as we're talking,
as we're sitting around the dinner table, and as we're playing outside,
and as we're driving to school, that yes, Let's absolutely speak
about God and the things of God in those contexts, but let's
also recognize that God has given us means of grace. And so as
the Church gathers together and as the people out in the hallway
are fellowshipping together and encouraging each other in the
things of God, that doesn't somehow negate the fact that they also
gather together to hear the Word of God read, and to hear it preached,
and proclaimed, and to pray together, and to sing together. And so
I think the same thing at home. Though we talk about these things
when we're walking around the neighborhood, we don't want to
neglect, at the same time, that God has given us His Word, and
that, you know, as I sit down with my kids and my wife, I want
to read what God has given us and say, this is effectual. God
has appointed this for a very specific purpose, an end, and
I want this to be part of our daily conversation as well, not
just what we're doing and how we see God and what we're doing
there, but also this daily conversation of what God has done and what
the Scriptures testify to God having done and who He is. So
I think that is important, and then the other is what we already
spoke about. We can have the best of intentions,
but there is something about that regular, consistent, daily
attending to the means of grace that over the long run has an
incredible effectual benefit. Though those conversations outside
or walking around or as we're doing dishes, they also have
wonderful benefits. I think over the course of time,
we'll find that this consistent regular gathering together as
a family probably has even more benefit because it is something
that's regular and consistent. It's just an incredible blessing
to the family as a family begins to center upon this and as a
family begins to revolve around this and expect this each day
and it shapes conversations and it shapes our living together
and we encourage each other in these things. So I'm a big, obviously,
proponent of family worship. I've seen the effects it's had
upon other families and upon my own. In this same chapter,
you really go after, well, that's probably too strong a word, but
you do zero in on the fathers. I mean, let's, you know, you
do, you leave room for situations where there may not be a father
in the home, a single mom or that kind of thing, but in general,
You're writing to fathers, especially beginning on page 36, and I can
think, as I'm reading through this section, I thought, you
know, there's probably some fathers out there that may bristle at
this idea of being considered a pastor in their own home. And as you laid this out, and
it really struck me that as fathers, well, most fathers, I know there's
some out there that struggle with this too, but most fathers
don't have any problem with getting up in the morning, going to work,
working hard, coming home, paying their bills, and the house is
there, the roof is over their head, the food is in everybody's
stomach, and the physical needs are provided for. But as you
unpack this thing, and you drove right into 1 Timothy 5, and you
talked about how if a person does not provide for his own
household, he denies the faith, he's worse than an infidel, that
whole passage And where you then touched on the aspect of the
spiritual needs of the home, and I think this is the part
where fathers would immediately, I know I did, would immediately
acknowledge that that's true. But then when it comes to the
actual doing, it's a lot easier just to blow it off and set it
aside. This idea of a father being a
pastor in the home. Talk to us a little bit about
both the physical and spiritual responsibilities, because I think
this is such a core reason why fathers don't do family worship
in the first place, is they don't see the spiritual responsibility.
Yeah, you're referencing pastors, fathers being pastors in the
home, makes me think of Jonathan Edwards and John Knox, you know,
two great stalwarts in the Reformed tradition, Jonathan Edwards saying, you are the pastor of your little
church, or John Knox saying to fathers, you are bishops and
kings in your home. And what they are both pointing
out is that fathers have this responsibility in the home. It's
a God-given responsibility. It may not be something that
a man wants or even that a man desires, but nonetheless, it
is God-given. We either attend to it and fulfill
it, or we run from it. And that doesn't mean that it's
always easy. It often means that it's hard. But I think primarily, with it
being our responsibility as fathers and husbands, we live a life
of loving sacrifice, even as the Lord Jesus does for His bride,
and did for His bride, that we live a life of loving sacrifice.
I mean, yes, every day I get up and I go to work and I earn
money to provide for my family physically so that they can have
a roof over their head and so that they can have food on their
plate and so that they can have clothes. And this is what Paul
is pointing out there in 1 Timothy 5, that if a man doesn't provide
for his family, he's worse than an unbeliever, worse than an
infidel. He's talking about that that physical provision there,
but I think we can extrapolate from that that my wife and my
children aren't just physical beings. They're also spiritual
beings. And so there is a true sense
in which I'm not providing for them as a husband and as a father
if I'm just providing for them physically, that I also need
to provide for them spiritually. If I'm truly going to love them
well, then I not only want to provide for their physical needs,
but also their spiritual needs. And I think one of the primary
ways that we do that is by gathering our family together to read the
Word and to hear it read and to pray together and to talk
about the things of God. And so as a husband, as a father,
we want to have that also first and foremost in our minds. Yes,
by all means, be encouraged that you're doing well by your wife
and children as you go out and you work hard all day long and
you sweat by your brow and you bring home resources to provide
for your family. But when we walk through that
door, let us not think that our job is done and that we've done
all that we need to do as a father and a husband. No. As I come
through the door, I also need to be reminded that I need to
provide for them spiritually. And one of the chief means of
doing that is to gather them together in worship each day.
Sure. Absolutely. And even your next chapter, I
mean, if this chapter that dealt with the prime reason for doing
these things, and as you laid those out, you even went beyond
that in chapter three and started laying out even more, you know,
you piled one reason on another reason, and the one area that
struck me, I think, in the next chapter, right in the beginning,
frankly, was that I think we're fond of talking, using the language
as Christians, you know, we have a Christian home, but I don't
think we think very deeply as to what it actually means to
have a Christian home. What does that mean? What does
that look like in a practical, tangible way? Obviously, you're
arguing that a Christian home looks like what a Christian looks
like, and how can it look like that if It's really characterized
by video games and every other thing that competes for our attention.
And if this aspect of our home life is just set aside or neglected,
where's the Christian home element really there? And I want to read,
and those who listen to this podcast know that when I do book
interviews, I typically don't talk about the book a lot. I
mean, because I want you to go buy the book, obviously. I want
you to go read it for yourself and so you can hear what the
author is actually saying, but this section here I thought was,
well, was thought-provoking for me as I read it, but you simply
say, when our children leave the home, what will they say
was the center of the family's life together? Do we want them
primarily thankful for parents who watched television with them
and attended all their games? Now, I mean, we like to look
outside the window and see the world taking their kids to every
soccer game, football game, baseball game, but the fact of the matter
is, Christians are caught up in that, too. Now, I know you're
not saying that that's a bad thing, necessarily, but when
it becomes the center of our family life, it becomes problematic. Do we want them primarily thankful
for parents who watch television with them and attended all their
games? That's a good thing, I guess, in some sense. Or do we desire
that our children leave the home with an understanding that worship
is the center of who we are and what we do, and that Christ is
what was most cherished." And then you're very gracious, you
say, I think all of us would say that our desire by God's
grace is that our children might say one day, our parents were
quirky, that would be me, had many faults, and were by no means
perfect, but we knew, we know that they loved the Lord, worshipped
Him, and were determined to share Christ's love with us. And I
can't think of any Christian parent that wouldn't read that
and say, that's what I, I desire that. But yet you, But yet, on
this subject right here, they wrestle tremendously. Why, in
your experience, Jason, have you seen parents wrestle, especially
fathers, wrestle with this, the tension that exists between what
they want and desire and what they actually do? Let's be honest. It's a struggle for all of us
because our lives are full. have yet to meet a family that
doesn't think that their life is full. And your husband especially
comes home and he's tired after a long day and he's using every
ounce of the strength that he has left just to have a conversation
with his wife as she's preparing dinner or as they're sitting
around the table and to talk with his kids about their day
and he's just waiting for to get through that bedtime that
is often a chore and to get everybody in bed and just to have an hour
to sit down and read or I think many men watch TV or go work
in the yard or something before he heads to bed and putting something
else on the daily calendar just feels like an awful lot to ask
and I think we all struggle with that and so what I remind people
that I've ministered to over the past 10 years, and as I remind
myself each day, and need to remind myself often, is that
this doesn't have to be some huge enterprise. This isn't some
monumental thing that has to happen every day where we're
sitting down for an hour and a half or two hours and having
some great theological discussion as we're sorting through the
book of Leviticus and praying a 30-minute prayer together.
just simple, just gather together as a family for 15 minutes. You'd be amazed at how much worship
can happen in 15 minutes together and just reading a section of
scripture together and praying together and singing a hymn or
a psalm or a song together. And just the benefit that even
just 15 or 20 minutes every day can have together and how it
truly does center the home upon Christ, that your children, as
they grow, they say, this is the one thing that was consistent
in our home, day in and day out, no matter how much was going
on or how many things that we were running to, and this was
the one thing that wasn't negotiable to my mother and father, is that
we would gather together as a family and that we would worship together. And having said that, though,
I also This is a reality in our life. There are nights it just
doesn't happen in our home. I tell fathers this all the time. I think what often happens is
that we miss a night, or we miss two nights, or we miss three
nights, or we miss it. We look back and all of a sudden
a week has gone by and it just feels like, oh, we had to start
this whole thing over again. It just becomes this huge burdensome
task. As I remind myself and remind
those that I've had the privilege of ministering to over the years,
it's not bad. Again, it's a means of grace.
So you know what, if I missed last night or if I missed two
nights or if this just has not been a good week for my family
because it's VBS week and we're running off here and there or
maybe it's a baseball tournament week and we're running off here
and there, then you know what, you just pick it up again. Just
pick it up tonight and start again. Start with 10 minutes
or 15 minutes. I think if it's a regular, consistent
issue in our family because we're constantly running or constantly
busy, then I think we really have to reassess where we're
at as a family and look at why this is something that we're
continually missing. It's not the end of the world
if I miss tonight or tomorrow night or a few nights in a row. Let's just pick it right back
up and remember it's a means of grace. We want to establish
our home in Christ and have it established in Christ, and this
is one of the chief means of doing so. Yeah, I think you're
right. I think there is a sense, especially
in our American culture, but I don't think it's just unique
to American culture. I think we like to think it is,
for whatever reason, that we are just very busy people, and
a lot of times our busyness is unnecessary. As you were talking
about keeping it simple, I shared with my wife my failings in this
area as a husband and a father, and I think one of the reasons
why I failed to be consistent in this as you were talking,
is that my family worship time wasn't simple. It had to be some
grand production, and I don't know, maybe that's my personality,
having to dot every I, cross every T, I inherited OCD from
my mother. I don't know what the reason
is. You know, I just, everything
had to be just so. And if it didn't go just so,
that would exasperate me or frustrate me. And what I ended up doing,
I think, is trying to tax my children with 45 minute long
family worship. And I just, and I exasperated
them to the point where the joy, as you've talked about in the
book, and we've talked around it a little bit, was gone there
was no joy it was drudgery it was uh... it was like work all
over again and um... and i just had to realize that
i just recently in the last couple years i've come to the realization
of the simple little phrase and it's simple bit hard to do at
least for someone like me less sometimes is more you know and
when you try to to too much you end up doing nothing and um... i think that was our problem
i was my problem i think it is it was just two grand you know
it had to be an hour had to be forty five minutes we had a do
this do this do this do this in the there was no joy in the
experience uh... because of it and and i think
as your point that it puts pressure not not only on yourself as a
if father or husband or a mother who whoever is a leading this
moment you know it puts pressure on you when you have these grand
expectations and and have it all worked out like that but
also put great burden upon those that you're attempting to lead
in Christ. And so we want to safeguard against
that. I think about Christ's words
about the long prayers of the Pharisees, and longer is not
always better. You know, it may be that for
some families, 45 minutes is prime for them, and and that's wonderful. God bless
them in that. For my family right now with
an eight-year-old and a five-year-old, and a five-year-old who has trouble
sitting still for more than five minutes, 20 minutes is very good
for us on an evening. And again, over time, it just
has a wonderful cumulative effect. And it is something that my kids
right now, they look forward to, because I think part of it
is they know that it's not going to be forever, or it's not going
to be dad waxing eloquent for 30 minutes. You know, we're just
dialoguing over the scriptures together, and they're praying,
and I'm praying, and we're singing a hymn, and usually they pick
it, and so it's something they're excited about singing together,
and it becomes something that truly has, in our home, it's
something that's joyful. Not every night. There are nights
that it borders on the laborious and there are nights that you're
tired and not exactly this isn't the thing that you want to do,
but it is something that our home has begun to be characterized
by and it's something that my kids actually look forward to
and I look forward to each night. I'm hoping that as the years
pass and as they get older and when they begin to have families,
that when we have family gatherings, that it's something that marks
them. Sure. That is something that
we look forward to engaging in together. You know, we don't
give up on corporate worship just because we go to worship
one Sunday and it, well, you know, had a headache and things
just weren't happening and you feel like, okay, I could have
stayed home and it would have been just the same if I had, you know, we all
have had those experiences. We go to worship and it's just
like, really didn't My heart wasn't in it, I guess, for a
lack of a better way of expressing it. But it doesn't mean we give
up on church the next week. We don't go because that could
happen again. And thankfully, the Lord blesses us with very
profitable times of corporate worship, just like He does in
family worship. But I think you're right. I think
there are times when it just is laborious. But thankfully,
those are fewer. You become fewer and far between
as you take that long view, which I think one of the things this
book really presented to me was that this isn't something that
We do a few times and it's some magic key that unlocks all these
wonderful things. This is something we need to
be, we need to persevere and stay consistent with and diligently
move through, um, through the life of our children's, uh, years
that God's given them in our home in the first place. And,
and I appreciate that long view. I think again, as Americans,
I think, you know, we're instamatic everything, you know, it's gotta
be done today and we need to see results tomorrow. Otherwise
it's useless. Um, Family worship doesn't always
give us the results the day after we do it. Sometimes it takes
months and maybe even years to show itself. I want to come back
to the simplicity thing because I think it helps highlight one
aspect of the book that I think would be a huge help for those
who may be listening to this discussion and they're thinking,
you know, I really need to start doing something like this. I'm
a father. I'm failing. I'm blowing this miserably. I
know I should be doing it. I just, I wrestle with these
things. But I don't know where to start.
And though you have a whole chapter on that subject, the appendix
of the book is what a benefit to have. I wish I had something
like this when I started understanding, even understanding family worship
when my children were, my oldest was about eight years old. I
didn't even know what to do. I mean, other than just sit down
and read the Bible, but I thought, well, I could just read the Bible to
them. How do I know they're understanding anything I'm saying? I mean,
is that actually accomplishing anything? I mean, I think you
know what I mean. And having this appendix here
is very, very helpful. And I really appreciate the fact
that you put them in here just for the listener's benefit. There's
just basically sample family worship structures. And, you
know, we're talking about keeping it simple. Let me just read the
first one really just briefly, just so you can get a flavor
of what we mean by simple. So, Sample number one. There's
there's a number of these in the back the Word of God read
John 15 Singing allow the children to pick their favorite hymn Memorization
there's a verse and then prayer each member of the family praise
That's it. There you go. Yeah Yeah, my nine pages long, you
know with we're gonna recite the Apostles Creed never gonna
read the Westminster confession of faith and then we're gonna
my poor kids must hated it. But it's just a wonderful simple
process and then you have other ones that are a little more involved
and I think what I like about it that you can gear these for
the ages of your children so you know you have a as you mentioned
you have a younger children so you you keep it really simple
as your children get older you you build on that you don't get
smaller you build on it and so I think the appendix is worth
the book frankly anyway for any father who might be struggling
with just what to do. Maybe they already know they
should But here they have this very well laid out and just take
it and just adopt it to your own family and press forward. Let me ask you some practical
questions. And, you know, as I was reflecting on my own life
and hope and can't believe I'm alone in some of these struggles. How do you help a father and
you're a pastor, how do you help a father who, who comes to you
and says, you know, pastor, I, I, I agree with you. I want to
do it, but I'm exhausted. Every single day I come, my job
is incredibly difficult and I just can't. How do you get them to
the, over that can't hump in the first place? Cause I think
oftentimes that's really the problem. It's not that they don't,
they don't see the value. It's that they just don't have
it left. They're gone. They're spent.
Yeah. Well, I think, you know, as a
pastor, I probably want to first talk through, I mean, Is he really
convicted that this is a good thing for his family, that this
is something that's his responsibility? And I think we'll start from
that. So we'll say, okay, Lord is Lord of the conscience. And
it appears that he's pricked your conscience that this is
a good thing for you and your family. And so then I want to
encourage him in it. Say, all right, it's hard for
you when you come home from a long day of work. So let's talk about
something that might be helpful for you. So choose a good time.
I think a lot of fathers, that's true, coming home from a long
day of work, it's just not the prime time for them. And it may
be that they're not walking out the door that morning till 7.30
or maybe even 8 o'clock to get to work at 9 or 8 o'clock. So you know what, maybe a good
time to do it instead is in the morning, to gather your family
around the breakfast table and take 15 minutes there before
you head off to your day and say, you know, we're going to
do this together every morning as a family. As I say in the
book, I think every family has to find its own kind of rhythm. For my family, it just does not
work in the morning. It just wouldn't work well. I'm
usually out the door very early, trying to get out the door at
6.30 or 7 o'clock. My wife isn't a morning person,
so it just would not work in my family to do it in the morning.
It does work for us to do it in the evening after dinner.
It may be as my kids get older and have more after-school activities
that it's not going to work that way. I've got to think about
pushing back my day. maybe hanging around a little
later in the morning because I have that flexibility. Some
husbands work around the corner, so they come home during the
day and have worship with their wife during the lunch hour. So
I think finding the right rhythm for your family at the right
time. I would just have all of us think
through, if this is something that my conscience is pricked
by, that I do think is my responsibility and it's something that's beneficial
for my family and is a good way to love them and to share Christ
with them and to teach them about God and what God has done, then
let's follow through on that. It's not enough just to say,
yeah, It's a good thing and I wish we had the energy and the time
to do it. Let's mold our family around this. Let's take our schedules
and let's take our time and let's mold it around it. It may not
be easy. It may mean that I'm coming home
tired from a long day and the only time that we can find to
do family worship is before or after dinner or even around the
dinner table. It's hard work for me. It's work
worth doing. It's a joyful responsibility
worth employing and engaging in. I think about that day when
my kids are finally absent from my home after 18, 20, 22 years,
however long it is. When I look back, am I going
to regret having labored through those nights after a long day? gathered together with my family
for 15 or 20 minutes. Well, I look back and say, and
I wish I hadn't done that because I was so tired. I don't think
that'll be the case. I think I'll look back and say,
no, I'm glad that we labored through those hard evenings when,
you know, in some ways, uh, it was just even more tiring to
engage in this. Um, but I think we'll look back
and say, no, I'm, That was one of the best decisions I made
as a father. And I think as a husband, I think there are many husbands
that look back and they say, I didn't do this with my kids
and wish I had. And as I encourage them, it's
not too late to start family worship in your home. You do
that with your wife now. Seize those opportunities now.
Yeah, I was going to ask you about that. certainly there's going to be
people like myself who their children are raised or grown
and They're compelled to pick up
this book and read it and there's even though there might be thinking
the back of their head Well, I don't have a family to do family worship
with anymore. Well, you just answered one side
of that That's simply not true. You have a wife and it's still
your responsibility to spiritually guide and lead her But how do
you help them overcome the reality that they look back and through
the lives of their children they say you know i just i really
failed in this area i would say you know christian
father christian husband uh... you remind yourself of all those
days that you did plant the word of god uh... did so it uh... by god's grace and your children's
lives and and your wife's life or if you're a mother you know,
in your children's lives that you say, we talked about the
things of God. You remind yourself of that.
You remind yourself that you brought them, uh, hopefully to
corporate worship, uh, weekly. And you remind yourself of the
feed that was scattered each week there. And, um, and you
remind yourself that this is a gracious God and that he is
gracious to our covenant children and that you were, banking the
hope of their salvation and the fruit that is born upon God's
grace and God's working. Family worship is not a pill
that one takes and it's a guarantee that children come to saving
faith. It's not a secret weapon in that regard. It's just one
of the means of grace that God has given to us. I think that
does shape our children, and to build them in the things of
Christ, and to shape our homes. So it's not the end of all things,
and it's not something I think a father or a husband should
beat himself up about, because those are days that have passed.
But it should be an encouragement if he is now convicted that,
man, he wishes he had done that in the years that have already
passed. If that conviction is there,
then it should wake him up to the reality that he has today.
And so with his wife today, he should be doing this. And when
his grandchildren and children come over to his house to have
dinner, then do it with them then. When you're gathering together
for Christmas, you do it then. I always think of a pastor friend
of mine that I labored with years ago in another state. He was
a dear friend. I remember him coming to me one
day and he said, Jason, he was in his late fifties, early sixties.
And he said, Jason, he said, I've just not loved my wife.
Well, uh, I haven't been a good husband. And I remember saying
to him, I said to him, I said, you can be now. And he said,
no, too many years have just gone by. Uh, I said to him, no,
it's not too late, you can now. And I think that's a reality
we have to consistently remind ourselves of in Christ, is that
though I may have regrets, and though there are things that
I wish I would have done better, and that I could have done better,
and we all have those, no matter how good of parents we are, or
good husbands we are, or good mothers we are, there are always
going to be things that we could have done better in Christ. And
so I remind myself that that today I need to labor well in
Christ and seek Christ today and rely upon His grace today,
and it is never too late. We serve a God who has immeasurable
riches and works sovereignly by a power that is unrestrained. And so I want to labor in these
things well today and not just have regret for yesterday and
let that shaped my living today to where I'm just in this despair
and anguish now. If I have conviction about yesterday,
then let me labor all the harder for him today. Very wise words
and helpful, I think, as well. A question occurred to me, probably
born out of my own experience, more than likely. What is your counsel to wives
Because it's been my experience that wives in a Christian home,
wives that are loving the Lord, walking with the Lord. I'm not
talking about a situation where there's a believing wife and
an unbelieving husband. I'm talking about two believing
parents. The wife is very desirous to
see her husband take the lead in this subject of family worship.
The husband doesn't, won't, refuses to, whatever the case may be.
What would you say to the wife in those situations? Yes, that's
a great question. Because I think this is often
reality, at least in our churches. I think a lot of times, we as
husbands and fathers, we struggle to pick up the mantle that is
ours and that responsibility, and I think often it is our wives
that are more godly than we are and that are encouraging us in
the things of Christ. and that the Lord uses in our
lives to spur us on to righteousness. I guess I would say that those
wives, as they think about it, they want to always have in their
mind the command of God that is consistent throughout the
Scriptures regarding the wife's relationship to the husband,
and that is that they are to honor their husband. I think
as a wife is trying to encourage her husband to lead them in family
worship or to engage in family worship, she always wants to
do it with a measure of honor, and where that honor and that
respect is governing her encouragement to her husband. So I think there
are ways to do it that is honorable, and there are ways that are doing
it that, you know, as Scripture saw about kind of being a dripping
faucet, and And so I think a wife wants to do it in a gentle way,
in a gracious way, in a way that is encouraging her husband that
this is a way that she really wants him to love her and to
love her children. And I think she can always have
in the back of her mind is she knows her husband well. She's
been married to him. We know each other well after we've been
married for years. have seen each other's struggles
and sins and failures, and she needs to remind herself of that
in the back of her mind of why this may be a struggle for him.
Maybe he's not confident in spiritual things and leading this family,
or he's anxious about the fact that maybe she is more spiritually
mature than him. anxious of the questions that
will be asked, or that he will have to lead in prayer. So I
think there are different suggestions that a wife can make about how
they approach family worship that can relieve her husband
of some of these fears or some of these burdens that he may
feel. I think the other is what we've talked about.
I think she can communicate in a wise and good way that that
she's not expecting him to be some monumental Christian figure,
but that she's just looking for him to be the husband and father
of the home and just to do something simply with the children and
with her. Over the years that will grow
and that will take on new dynamics. but that she's just looking for
him just to read the word and just to pray and maybe she's
praying and she's helping to lead the song or something, but
just to remind him that it's something that's simple. Sure. Probably not a good idea to tell
the wife to go in the living room turn the TV off on the husband
and drop the kids there and just start doing it. Oh, that's probably
not a good wise plan. Probably not the way to go. It's
probably been tried with probably equally horrible results as well. As we wrap up here, I just want
to touch base. I know we didn't talk about all
the chapters and I tend to do that on purpose so that people
buy the book. I think I've said that once already.
The chapter nine is very, I think very helpful because you present
people in this chapter that have either struggle with some of
these issues at one time or another but the bottom line is they actually
retell their story when it comes to this subject and uh... i'm curious uh... these people
uh... how did you get to know that did you personally know
these individuals i was soon you did but yet uh... yet chapter nine your comment
is uh... just do it but the whole nike deal right that's right
just do it and it's a I have some testimonies from different
families that have practiced family worship, and they're all
families that I've either served as their pastor or are friends
that I've known through other people. Each of them I just wrote
an email to and asked them if they'd just be willing to write
a few paragraphs about their own experience of family worship.
It was an awful lot of fun to get them in reply. just to see,
you know, that we have similar struggles and similar things
that we've gone through and seen similar benefits. So we didn't
edit them. We just kind of, we put them
in there after they'd each replied. And I think people will find
them to be a wonderful encouragement of different struggles that a
mother is having or that a father now that is an empty nester and
he and his wife, the different struggles they've had and the
different joys that they've experienced in the midst of it, or a single
father and how he has engaged in family worship and just the
different experiences that they've been through. I know I found
encouragement to me and I think many readers, as you've expressed,
have found encouragement as well as they go through the book.
Yeah, they read these stories and they think, hey, I'm not
alone. I'm not the only person out there that wrestles with
this. But in some sense, you see the benefits before you actually
enjoy the benefits in your own home. You see other families
reaping the benefits of these things. And that's a very big
help, especially for us men who get so, well, men like me, especially,
who just get so focused on one specific thing and don't And
then when that's done, it's like, okay, I've done my duty for the
day. And forgetting that there's more duty that still, uh, still
lies ahead. And, um, I know my, my own wife,
um, modeled, I think if I could go that far, um, what I was asking
you about, about wives, where she would just hear the occasional
remark or suggestion or encouragement. It wasn't brow beating. It wasn't,
uh, you know, it wasn't, uh, well, What's the word that women
hate? Nagging. They don't, it wasn't nagging.
It was just the, you know, a little reminder, a friendly email at
work or some, the text message, you know, something that just
kind of nudged me in that, in a direction because she knew
that I, I'm not opposed or against. It's just, I need to be encouraged
a little bit more to move in that direction. And, and I, I'm
sure I'm not alone. Um, And as we wrap up this discussion,
I think our guest's desire, and mine as well, would be, number
one, buy the book and read it, because I think you will profit
from this. It's not overly long. You could
probably, if you're a diligent reader, you could probably read
it in a few hours. It's not overly long, but the
material in there, it's written in such a way that it's really
encouraging. I didn't come away feeling like the beat up bum
father who blew it. uh... i came away realizing that
i did make mistakes i did air in certain ways but i also came
with the reality that you know i still have a wife uh... my children are grown now uh...
but i still have a wife and i thought this responsibility and and and
i'm encouraged in that direction i'm not discouraged in that direction
not living in the despondency i'm i'm looking forward to the
to the benefits that are presented here so read the book and i think
you'd be blessed encouraged in this area uh... And it's extremely
practical. It's not heavily laden with theological
language that you're going to have to look up in a dictionary.
It's nothing, no offense to the author, but I don't think that
was his intention. It's very based and framed in
scriptural principles driving forward into the subject. And
I really think, you know, we would see our churches in the
corporate sense strengthened families would be more diligent
in this area not weakened and I maybe I wish I could prove
this is there a corollary is there a correlation between our
churches week the weakness in the church to the weakness in
this department I don't know maybe I guess I can never prove
it but I'm suspicious anyway of that Jason give any final
words encouragement for the listeners on this subject I know it's it's
obviously near near very near and dear to your own heart. But
while you're answering that, why don't you tell us how to
get the book as well? Yeah, I think that what I would
just encourage our listeners, one of the most encouraging things
that I think that you've said in this and that anybody can
say to me is that the book is simple. And I want people to
read it and get done with it and go, yeah, this is simple
and this makes complete and utter sense. I could have written that
book. That's my hope, is that people
get done with it, and they read it, and they go, yeah, this isn't
rock and science. This is easy, and they begin
to engage in it as families, or this just spurs them on to
practice family worship even more so as a family if they're
already practicing it. That would be, to me, one of the greatest
encouragements to hear from people. I just want to see people just
do it, because I think it has I know that it has wonderful
benefits for our families. It has eternal and everlasting
benefits, and so I would encourage people to engage in it. The book, you can find it anywhere
where they sell books, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Westminster Theological
Seminary. Christian Focus is the publisher,
so you can obviously get it from them directly, but anywhere You
can get Christian books. You can find the book. Right.
And I will have, of course, on the website when this broadcast
is released, there will be a link, of course, for it pointing to
one of those or a few of those resources for you to easily grab
it as well. So again, I encourage you to
get it. It's not overly expensive. I
don't have the price in front of me. It doesn't make any difference.
Who cares? Get it, read it, consume it,
do it. Just like the last chapter of the book says. I mean, I really
kind of chuckle when I think about the last chapter. Just
do it. Okay, you've read all this stuff, now go get busy.
And that's really, that's Christianity, right? We can theorize all day
long about these things, but if we don't put something into
practice, then it's just really a waste of time. And so get a
hold of the book and I will make it very easy for you to do that
on the website. Jason, it's been great to have
you on. As I indicated to you off-air, I feel a little off-kilter
today for some unknown reason. I don't feel like my normal self.
I don't know what that is. I think it's my... I stopped drinking
coffee. Maybe that's it. Well, that could
be it. That's not a good idea with the start of seminary here
happening in a year. Well, I shouldn't say I've stopped.
I haven't, like, stop-stopped. I just have cut way back. I used
to drink far too much, and now I'm pretty much a couple mugs
a day, and that's about it. a pot of coffee before I leave
the house in the morning. So I don't know if that's causing
me to be a little more placid. Well, that's pretty funny. People
who know me who hear that are going to start laughing because
I'm far from placid. I'm very type A, but anyway. But I enjoy these kinds of conversations
because to me this is practical Christianity, lived in the raw,
this is the real deal. God has given us these children.
They are not owed us. God has blessed us with them.
They are His children. He has loaned them to us, as
it were, and He has given us a responsibility to raise them
in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. I can't think of
a better way to do that than to engage in this simple process,
there it is, each day of just sitting down with your children,
reading Scripture, showing your children, by example, that you
love the Word of God enough to read it to them, and then teach
them it as well, ask questions. Real quick story, an associate
pastor of mine who visited with us while I'm here in Greenville,
he was in town and he's got five girls. And they had family worship
every day in my house when they were there. And they invited
us, of course, to join them, but they were gonna have it.
Because that's their practice, that's their habit, And it was
simple. And I remember thinking that as they were doing it, I
thought, this is, it's just simple. You know, he reads a section
of scripture. He asked the children, a couple of questions, questions
based on their age. And, um, then they pray together,
then it's done. And I thought, wow, I could have
done that. So why didn't I? And so what
a simple process and it's just Christianity lived out and what
a great responsibility, great responsibility, but great privilege
as well. to lead our children in that way. So I very much appreciate
the time you took to write the book and for talking with us
as well on a subject that I hope Christians, fathers especially,
really take seriously. Because I do think we'd see our
church, the next generation of Christians, stronger, not weaker,
just from this simple process each day. What a blessing it
would be to see Christ's kingdom advance just from this simple
uh... effort on a daily basis so jason
thank you very much and uh... will be praying for you and your
work up there and uh... lansing as you slowly move into
the winter season but i think i don't know how i have a western
new yorker kcm picked up on it but i'm from western new york
i live my years in the snow i'm glad you have been well i appreciate
that night appreciate being with you bill and uh... more than
appreciate greenville and uh... Lord's blessings upon all the
students as they start here this upcoming week with their studies.
Yes, thank you very much. You've been listening to an interview
with Jason, I'm going to say his name wrong again, hold on,
I'll get it right, Holopoulos. I got it. Was that right? I learned
something in this interview, okay. But anyway, he is the author
of a book, A Neglected Grace, Family Worship in the Christian
Home, a really excellent treatment of the subject, and I would strongly
encourage you to read it. Sit down, read it with your wife,
but regardless of how you do it, read it. And then do it,
as the last chapter encourages you to do. And as I said, you'll
be able to access that resource very easily on the website at
confessingourhope.com. Coming up next week, I'll be
speaking with a man I was supposed to speak with a couple weeks
ago, but it got delayed, but it's been rescheduled for next
Monday. Peter Hubbard will be sitting down with me and talking
about the topic of homosexuality. How should the church respond
to people who struggle with same-sex attraction? It's a reality in
our church, friends. We can't ignore it any longer.
And we have to be able to biblically respond in a loving way to this
situation. And so we're going to sit down
with Peter Hubbard and talk with him on this subject that we all
really need to get a grip on, I think, at least at some level
in our world. today. There's more coming up.
Go to the website, you'll find all that information there. So
until next week, we do thank you for listening to this discussion,
one that I really trust God will use to encourage men, especially
fathers in the home, to be diligent, to raise their children in the
nurture and admonition of the Lord in this way, using this
means of grace that God has blessed us with. What a blessing it is. So, until next time, we do thank
you for listening to this edition of Confessing Our Hope, the podcast
of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. And God bless.
#42 – A Neglected Grace
Series Confessing Our Hope
Our guest this week was Rev. Jason Helopoulos, as we discussed his book A Neglected Grace: Family Worship in the Christian Home. This was an outstanding and edifying conversation on a subject of great importance.
| Sermon ID | 924131221542 |
| Duration | 1:08:59 |
| Date | |
| Category | Radio Broadcast |
| Language | English |
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