Well, good afternoon and welcome to another edition of Confessing Our Hope, the podcast of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. As usual, I'm your host, William Hill, and this is The day, well actually it's two days before things really get nutso, if that's a good word to use. It's probably not a strong enough word, but anyway, be that as it may, it's two days away from when classes start here at Greenville Seminary. And as a student and the host of this program, also doing IT work around the seminary, you can just imagine what my life is like right now. Things are a little crazy, but that's okay. I'm thankful for the time that I have today carved out in my schedule to sit down and talk with a man who has written a book that I think is something that we all, especially as fathers, but not just fathers, need to take very seriously, especially in the climate and the culture we live in, the world we live today. And we'll be talking with this man in just a minute. As usual, you can find out more information about the podcast. Those who listen faithfully every week can go to confessingourhope.com. You can get all the information about what we've done in the past and what's coming up in the future. well as resources and information. All of that can be found there on the website. Don't forget about the mobile app, the GPTS mobile app, that is free, available for you to download both in iOS and Android. A thousand downloads or more to date since we released this not too long ago, so I'm very encouraged to see people taking advantage of that. It doesn't just have our podcast, but it has chapel sermons and other resources, such as our annual Spring Theology Conference that we host every year. They're available for you on the go. So if you're trucking through the mall or you're sitting in traffic, whatever the case may be, you have it available at your fingertips whenever you would like it. And of course, if you would like more information about Greenville Seminary, you can find us on the web at gpts.edu. There you'll find out all the information about our academic programs, professors, and so forth. If the website doesn't answer your question, write us at info at gpts.edu. Now as indicated, we'll be talking with a man who has, he's both a pastor and an author, has written a book on the topic of family worship. The topic of the book is one that we really need to give due attention to. As I read through the book, I reflected on my own failures in this area as a father. Those of you who listen all the time know I have three grown children and this is one of those things that I wrestled with pretty often as a dad and hopefully we'll deal with some of those things as we talk with this author. We'll be speaking with Jason and I'm going to say his name wrong. I knew I would So, Jason, why don't you tell us who you are, and that'll kick me right off the hook, and then we'll just launch right into this. Well, that might be easier. My name is Jason Kolopolis, and I'm an assistant pastor at University Reform Church in East Lansing, Michigan, ordained in the PCA, and it's my pleasure to be with you today, Bill. I appreciate you having me. Great. Yes, thank you. And I really, I sat down and started reading the book last week, and I really appreciated it, and as I was telling you off-air, I identified almost immediately in the beginning of the book when you talked about people who struggle with this subject in the actual, they don't always struggle with the subject so much as they struggle with the actual doing of the subject where people would start, stop, and that was pretty much characterized my children's growing up years in our home. And even now with just my wife, it's still the same kind of struggle that goes on. The flesh wins more than it should in this area. But the title of the book, for those who are wondering, is A Neglected Grace, Family Worship in the Christian Home. And so we'll be speaking with Jason on this. So Jason, I've got to ask, you know, the million-dollar question, of course, is what was going on behind the scenes that drove you to sit down and put the time in to write a book of this nature? Yeah, I think it's a lot of what you just said about your own struggle. As I sat down to write the book, there were two primary groups that I had in mind. One was those that just hadn't thought about family worship before, hadn't maybe even heard of it, haven't engaged in it, and just needed a good argument as to why to begin engaging in family worship. But probably even more so, I wrote it for the second group of people in which you mentioned belonging to yourself and many people that I've ministered to through the years is those that are convicted say, yeah, I think family worship would be a good thing to practice at home and it's something that we want to do, but just not quite sure how to go about it and I think are oftentimes running around with guilt and it just feels like one more thing to add to the plate. So I wanted to hopefully help stimulate the discussion and kind of stoke the fires of the conversation about family worship by writing a book that not only gave the biblical case for it, and I think a theological argument for it, but also just helped come alongside of parents that are struggling to implement it and how to do it, and I think to relieve some of that guilt that's often associated with it and just encourage that this is really a wonderful means of grace to be practiced in the home and just encourage parents along those lines. Yeah, that's very helpful and I think as I read the book, I got that tone, the tone I think you set out to present in the beginning where you came right out and said, you know, this is not one of those guilt books, you know, books to lay guilt on, even though I'll be honest with you, I in some sense felt a little guilty as I'm reading it and maybe for all the right reasons, but Can't do anything about it now, of course, and that with my kids, but it was written in such a way that not only just said that this is something you should do and do it, but you supported it first in the first half of the book, really I think the first three chapters, with good solid biblical framework and then launched into the particulars of the actual thing. And I want to go through, if we can briefly, kind of work our way through those first few chapters where you really start out where, and I've read other family worship books before, this isn't the first one I've ever read, but I don't think I've ever read one that started in this way. You know, usually launched into the historical precedent for family worship and it's been done throughout our church history. This came out in a very different format. It came out with the idea of who we are and what we're here to do. God's creatures. And so that was your first chapter, and I'm intrigued as to the beginning there, and you didn't just jump into the subject. You started really with the idea that we're created in the image of God to worship. We're worshipful creatures. Can you elaborate maybe a little on that chapter, and why did you start there and maybe not on the topic specific? Yeah, as we think about family worship, often the the cases that we approach it as some kind of isolated individual, I don't know, entity, I guess, that we're doing in our own homes, and I wanted to set it in the context of all of life. So as we think about why we were created and why God formed Adam from the dust of the ground, it was primarily to be a worshipper of him, to live all the days of his life as this one who would offer his body as a living sacrifice, as Paul says in Romans 12, and unto God in his daily labors, and his relationship with his wife, and his governing of creation. So I think as we think about why we were created to be worshipers, and then if we think about us as Christians, the reason we're recreated in Christ and born again is, again, to be worshipers. Paul will say there in 1 Corinthians that whether we eat or drink, whatever we do, we are to do to the glory of God. We are worshiping beings. That's why we're created. That's why we're recreated. So if we set that as the foundation, and then we look at that and we say, yeah, all of life is to be an act of worship to God. And so as we think about that, and then we think, That's a reality, and that is true, and yet it's also true that it seems scripturally and theologically that God has set aside specific spheres where we are to see worship practice and implement it. As I talk about in the book, I think the three main spheres of worship that we see are corporate worship, where the Church gathers together as a body, we have been knitted together in Christ, and So we come together to offer worship to God. There's also that secret or private worship. Puritans often call it secret worship. I think, you know, in our modern parlance today, people call it, you know, our devotion times or those times that we get away and we shut the door, as Christ talked about, and we offer worship to God. individually. So those are the two ends of the spectrum. Corporate worship, where we gather together with the body, and secret worship, where I'm alone with Christ in that inner chamber. And I think there's also that sphere of family worship, where all those within the home gather together and worship God, and that this marks our homes as much as it marks our body life together, and as much as it marks my individual life. So it should mark my family life. So we want to see our families, those living under the same roof, gathering together to offer worship to God. And I think, just to kind of close this out, as we're talking about that, as we think about those three spheres, they all inform one another and help us to live this life of worship to God as we were created to be and as we were recreated to be. these three spheres all inform one another and help to inform a life that is truly a living sacrifice unto God. So that's why one of the reasons that I think family worship is crucial and important. It informs my corporate worship. It informs my secret worship, just as my secret worship and corporate worship inform my family worship. Yeah, absolutely. As I was reading that chapter and I was thinking about those things that you were saying, clearly these elements are informing one another. They're not isolated issues, so it's not as though our corporate worship is lived off in a vacuum somewhere, or my private worship or secret worship or daily devotions, whatever terms, phrases, what people want to attach to it these days, isn't also lived in a vacuum. And then family worship, again, isn't lived in a vacuum. These things all have overlapping elements, which Strengthen them in fact and not weaken each it helps support all three very nicely but then you move into chapter two with Where I really live as a person. I'm a very practical oriented kind of guy and I need reasons for things I Mean, okay, you can give me the rules, but I need to know why they're there. I need to understand. Okay, that's the rule But why is it a rule is it just because we have what we're good at making up rules. I I'm a reason-oriented person. I don't suspect I'm alone in that thought process. I really appreciated the chapter that followed the foundational things, where you go into this joyful responsibility and biblical encouragement in this aspect of family worship. As you're driving towards the particulars now, you're starting to demonstrate the practical reasons for it. Give me a little background into, if someone were to come up to you and say, okay, Pastor, You've been preaching for weeks on family worship, and you know, I'm just not convinced. Tell me why. Give me a reason, or reasons, as the case may be, why we should do this. Yeah. You know, as we think about family worship, and as you read, there are a few other books out there that have dealt with it over the past, you know, 50 years. I think as we look at this, there isn't a passage that we could point to and say, here we have a command to spend 15 or 20 minutes and worship together as a family. You're just not going to find that in the Scriptures. But what you do find is that parents, and especially and particularly fathers and husbands, are responsible for teaching the truths of God and appointing their families unto the living God. And so, as we look at that, whether that's Genesis 18 or whether that's Deuteronomy 6, where we're told to speak of these things as we lie down and as we rise up and as we walk along the way and as we sit down, or whether it's, I think, one of the most foundational passages regarding this, Psalm 78, where the psalmist is talking about this testimony of God and what God has done and who He is. how we are to pass these things on to our children. We're not to hide them from our children, but tell them to the coming generation that these, what Father Solomon says, that these glorious deeds of the Lord and of His might and the wonders that He has done, these are the things that we are to pass on to our children and to the next generation. But the crucial question becomes, as we think about Deuteronomy 6 and as we think about Psalm 78, how does this happen? And I think, you know, it happens as Deuteronomy 6 talks about, as we're walking along the way and as we're sitting down, it happens in kind of these organic kind of ways just as we're going through our day, but there's an incredible benefit to having something that is regular, that is consistent, that is happening every day, that we're gathering together as a family to talk about God, to talk about what He has done, and to pass these things along. As Paul says to Timothy, this good deposit that has been given to you, this good deposit that I have as a father and a husband, to have a regular, consistent, daily time where I am passing this on to my children, and I'm giving it to them, and I'm telling them who God is through the Scriptures, and relaying to them what He has done, and centering our home upon this. And I think we can talk about doing it all kinds of other ways, but the reality is that if we don't have something consistent and regular, that it becomes very hard for it to be not only part of our lives, but the very center of our home, the very center of what our home believes and what it does. And it's clear, at least to me historically and biblically, that family worship is one of the chief means of accomplishing this within our families. I was going to ask you as a way of possible objection to the subject, well can't we teach our children these things of Scripture and our precious faith in other means? Like if I'm driving down the street, can I point out things that God's created? Can I teach my children as we're walking down the road about the things of the Lord. Why does it have to be a specific time consistently organized on a daily basis? I mean, you somewhat answered that question. I think there's the expectation level that children begin to expect this time as a time of instruction. But how would you respond to that objection? I mean, when someone says, well, you know, I do that, but I don't do it in this formal sense that you just described. Yeah, I think it's two things. I think the one is, and we want to encourage that, that perspective of saying, look, when I'm going on a walk around the neighborhood with my kids, I'm talking to them about the sunset that we're seeing and that this is God's handiwork. And as we're playing outside and enjoying one another, that we're reminding each other that God has given each of us as a gift to each other. That is wonderful, and that should be part of our life together with our family and should be part of that dynamic living in God. But it's also true that God has given us means of grace. So as much as I want to do those things and absolutely want to encourage them, I also want to say that God has given us His Word, He has given us prayer, He has given us song, He has given us these things as means of grace. by which He communicates grace to us, by which we dwell with Him, and by which we learn of Him and enjoy Him. And so we want to absolutely affirm that these organic kind of just every day as we're talking, as we're sitting around the dinner table, and as we're playing outside, and as we're driving to school, that yes, Let's absolutely speak about God and the things of God in those contexts, but let's also recognize that God has given us means of grace. And so as the Church gathers together and as the people out in the hallway are fellowshipping together and encouraging each other in the things of God, that doesn't somehow negate the fact that they also gather together to hear the Word of God read, and to hear it preached, and proclaimed, and to pray together, and to sing together. And so I think the same thing at home. Though we talk about these things when we're walking around the neighborhood, we don't want to neglect, at the same time, that God has given us His Word, and that, you know, as I sit down with my kids and my wife, I want to read what God has given us and say, this is effectual. God has appointed this for a very specific purpose, an end, and I want this to be part of our daily conversation as well, not just what we're doing and how we see God and what we're doing there, but also this daily conversation of what God has done and what the Scriptures testify to God having done and who He is. So I think that is important, and then the other is what we already spoke about. We can have the best of intentions, but there is something about that regular, consistent, daily attending to the means of grace that over the long run has an incredible effectual benefit. Though those conversations outside or walking around or as we're doing dishes, they also have wonderful benefits. I think over the course of time, we'll find that this consistent regular gathering together as a family probably has even more benefit because it is something that's regular and consistent. It's just an incredible blessing to the family as a family begins to center upon this and as a family begins to revolve around this and expect this each day and it shapes conversations and it shapes our living together and we encourage each other in these things. So I'm a big, obviously, proponent of family worship. I've seen the effects it's had upon other families and upon my own. In this same chapter, you really go after, well, that's probably too strong a word, but you do zero in on the fathers. I mean, let's, you know, you do, you leave room for situations where there may not be a father in the home, a single mom or that kind of thing, but in general, You're writing to fathers, especially beginning on page 36, and I can think, as I'm reading through this section, I thought, you know, there's probably some fathers out there that may bristle at this idea of being considered a pastor in their own home. And as you laid this out, and it really struck me that as fathers, well, most fathers, I know there's some out there that struggle with this too, but most fathers don't have any problem with getting up in the morning, going to work, working hard, coming home, paying their bills, and the house is there, the roof is over their head, the food is in everybody's stomach, and the physical needs are provided for. But as you unpack this thing, and you drove right into 1 Timothy 5, and you talked about how if a person does not provide for his own household, he denies the faith, he's worse than an infidel, that whole passage And where you then touched on the aspect of the spiritual needs of the home, and I think this is the part where fathers would immediately, I know I did, would immediately acknowledge that that's true. But then when it comes to the actual doing, it's a lot easier just to blow it off and set it aside. This idea of a father being a pastor in the home. Talk to us a little bit about both the physical and spiritual responsibilities, because I think this is such a core reason why fathers don't do family worship in the first place, is they don't see the spiritual responsibility. Yeah, you're referencing pastors, fathers being pastors in the home, makes me think of Jonathan Edwards and John Knox, you know, two great stalwarts in the Reformed tradition, Jonathan Edwards saying, you are the pastor of your little church, or John Knox saying to fathers, you are bishops and kings in your home. And what they are both pointing out is that fathers have this responsibility in the home. It's a God-given responsibility. It may not be something that a man wants or even that a man desires, but nonetheless, it is God-given. We either attend to it and fulfill it, or we run from it. And that doesn't mean that it's always easy. It often means that it's hard. But I think primarily, with it being our responsibility as fathers and husbands, we live a life of loving sacrifice, even as the Lord Jesus does for His bride, and did for His bride, that we live a life of loving sacrifice. I mean, yes, every day I get up and I go to work and I earn money to provide for my family physically so that they can have a roof over their head and so that they can have food on their plate and so that they can have clothes. And this is what Paul is pointing out there in 1 Timothy 5, that if a man doesn't provide for his family, he's worse than an unbeliever, worse than an infidel. He's talking about that that physical provision there, but I think we can extrapolate from that that my wife and my children aren't just physical beings. They're also spiritual beings. And so there is a true sense in which I'm not providing for them as a husband and as a father if I'm just providing for them physically, that I also need to provide for them spiritually. If I'm truly going to love them well, then I not only want to provide for their physical needs, but also their spiritual needs. And I think one of the primary ways that we do that is by gathering our family together to read the Word and to hear it read and to pray together and to talk about the things of God. And so as a husband, as a father, we want to have that also first and foremost in our minds. Yes, by all means, be encouraged that you're doing well by your wife and children as you go out and you work hard all day long and you sweat by your brow and you bring home resources to provide for your family. But when we walk through that door, let us not think that our job is done and that we've done all that we need to do as a father and a husband. No. As I come through the door, I also need to be reminded that I need to provide for them spiritually. And one of the chief means of doing that is to gather them together in worship each day. Sure. Absolutely. And even your next chapter, I mean, if this chapter that dealt with the prime reason for doing these things, and as you laid those out, you even went beyond that in chapter three and started laying out even more, you know, you piled one reason on another reason, and the one area that struck me, I think, in the next chapter, right in the beginning, frankly, was that I think we're fond of talking, using the language as Christians, you know, we have a Christian home, but I don't think we think very deeply as to what it actually means to have a Christian home. What does that mean? What does that look like in a practical, tangible way? Obviously, you're arguing that a Christian home looks like what a Christian looks like, and how can it look like that if It's really characterized by video games and every other thing that competes for our attention. And if this aspect of our home life is just set aside or neglected, where's the Christian home element really there? And I want to read, and those who listen to this podcast know that when I do book interviews, I typically don't talk about the book a lot. I mean, because I want you to go buy the book, obviously. I want you to go read it for yourself and so you can hear what the author is actually saying, but this section here I thought was, well, was thought-provoking for me as I read it, but you simply say, when our children leave the home, what will they say was the center of the family's life together? Do we want them primarily thankful for parents who watched television with them and attended all their games? Now, I mean, we like to look outside the window and see the world taking their kids to every soccer game, football game, baseball game, but the fact of the matter is, Christians are caught up in that, too. Now, I know you're not saying that that's a bad thing, necessarily, but when it becomes the center of our family life, it becomes problematic. Do we want them primarily thankful for parents who watch television with them and attended all their games? That's a good thing, I guess, in some sense. Or do we desire that our children leave the home with an understanding that worship is the center of who we are and what we do, and that Christ is what was most cherished." And then you're very gracious, you say, I think all of us would say that our desire by God's grace is that our children might say one day, our parents were quirky, that would be me, had many faults, and were by no means perfect, but we knew, we know that they loved the Lord, worshipped Him, and were determined to share Christ's love with us. And I can't think of any Christian parent that wouldn't read that and say, that's what I, I desire that. But yet you, But yet, on this subject right here, they wrestle tremendously. Why, in your experience, Jason, have you seen parents wrestle, especially fathers, wrestle with this, the tension that exists between what they want and desire and what they actually do? Let's be honest. It's a struggle for all of us because our lives are full. have yet to meet a family that doesn't think that their life is full. And your husband especially comes home and he's tired after a long day and he's using every ounce of the strength that he has left just to have a conversation with his wife as she's preparing dinner or as they're sitting around the table and to talk with his kids about their day and he's just waiting for to get through that bedtime that is often a chore and to get everybody in bed and just to have an hour to sit down and read or I think many men watch TV or go work in the yard or something before he heads to bed and putting something else on the daily calendar just feels like an awful lot to ask and I think we all struggle with that and so what I remind people that I've ministered to over the past 10 years, and as I remind myself each day, and need to remind myself often, is that this doesn't have to be some huge enterprise. This isn't some monumental thing that has to happen every day where we're sitting down for an hour and a half or two hours and having some great theological discussion as we're sorting through the book of Leviticus and praying a 30-minute prayer together. just simple, just gather together as a family for 15 minutes. You'd be amazed at how much worship can happen in 15 minutes together and just reading a section of scripture together and praying together and singing a hymn or a psalm or a song together. And just the benefit that even just 15 or 20 minutes every day can have together and how it truly does center the home upon Christ, that your children, as they grow, they say, this is the one thing that was consistent in our home, day in and day out, no matter how much was going on or how many things that we were running to, and this was the one thing that wasn't negotiable to my mother and father, is that we would gather together as a family and that we would worship together. And having said that, though, I also This is a reality in our life. There are nights it just doesn't happen in our home. I tell fathers this all the time. I think what often happens is that we miss a night, or we miss two nights, or we miss three nights, or we miss it. We look back and all of a sudden a week has gone by and it just feels like, oh, we had to start this whole thing over again. It just becomes this huge burdensome task. As I remind myself and remind those that I've had the privilege of ministering to over the years, it's not bad. Again, it's a means of grace. So you know what, if I missed last night or if I missed two nights or if this just has not been a good week for my family because it's VBS week and we're running off here and there or maybe it's a baseball tournament week and we're running off here and there, then you know what, you just pick it up again. Just pick it up tonight and start again. Start with 10 minutes or 15 minutes. I think if it's a regular, consistent issue in our family because we're constantly running or constantly busy, then I think we really have to reassess where we're at as a family and look at why this is something that we're continually missing. It's not the end of the world if I miss tonight or tomorrow night or a few nights in a row. Let's just pick it right back up and remember it's a means of grace. We want to establish our home in Christ and have it established in Christ, and this is one of the chief means of doing so. Yeah, I think you're right. I think there is a sense, especially in our American culture, but I don't think it's just unique to American culture. I think we like to think it is, for whatever reason, that we are just very busy people, and a lot of times our busyness is unnecessary. As you were talking about keeping it simple, I shared with my wife my failings in this area as a husband and a father, and I think one of the reasons why I failed to be consistent in this as you were talking, is that my family worship time wasn't simple. It had to be some grand production, and I don't know, maybe that's my personality, having to dot every I, cross every T, I inherited OCD from my mother. I don't know what the reason is. You know, I just, everything had to be just so. And if it didn't go just so, that would exasperate me or frustrate me. And what I ended up doing, I think, is trying to tax my children with 45 minute long family worship. And I just, and I exasperated them to the point where the joy, as you've talked about in the book, and we've talked around it a little bit, was gone there was no joy it was drudgery it was uh... it was like work all over again and um... and i just had to realize that i just recently in the last couple years i've come to the realization of the simple little phrase and it's simple bit hard to do at least for someone like me less sometimes is more you know and when you try to to too much you end up doing nothing and um... i think that was our problem i was my problem i think it is it was just two grand you know it had to be an hour had to be forty five minutes we had a do this do this do this do this in the there was no joy in the experience uh... because of it and and i think as your point that it puts pressure not not only on yourself as a if father or husband or a mother who whoever is a leading this moment you know it puts pressure on you when you have these grand expectations and and have it all worked out like that but also put great burden upon those that you're attempting to lead in Christ. And so we want to safeguard against that. I think about Christ's words about the long prayers of the Pharisees, and longer is not always better. You know, it may be that for some families, 45 minutes is prime for them, and and that's wonderful. God bless them in that. For my family right now with an eight-year-old and a five-year-old, and a five-year-old who has trouble sitting still for more than five minutes, 20 minutes is very good for us on an evening. And again, over time, it just has a wonderful cumulative effect. And it is something that my kids right now, they look forward to, because I think part of it is they know that it's not going to be forever, or it's not going to be dad waxing eloquent for 30 minutes. You know, we're just dialoguing over the scriptures together, and they're praying, and I'm praying, and we're singing a hymn, and usually they pick it, and so it's something they're excited about singing together, and it becomes something that truly has, in our home, it's something that's joyful. Not every night. There are nights that it borders on the laborious and there are nights that you're tired and not exactly this isn't the thing that you want to do, but it is something that our home has begun to be characterized by and it's something that my kids actually look forward to and I look forward to each night. I'm hoping that as the years pass and as they get older and when they begin to have families, that when we have family gatherings, that it's something that marks them. Sure. That is something that we look forward to engaging in together. You know, we don't give up on corporate worship just because we go to worship one Sunday and it, well, you know, had a headache and things just weren't happening and you feel like, okay, I could have stayed home and it would have been just the same if I had, you know, we all have had those experiences. We go to worship and it's just like, really didn't My heart wasn't in it, I guess, for a lack of a better way of expressing it. But it doesn't mean we give up on church the next week. We don't go because that could happen again. And thankfully, the Lord blesses us with very profitable times of corporate worship, just like He does in family worship. But I think you're right. I think there are times when it just is laborious. But thankfully, those are fewer. You become fewer and far between as you take that long view, which I think one of the things this book really presented to me was that this isn't something that We do a few times and it's some magic key that unlocks all these wonderful things. This is something we need to be, we need to persevere and stay consistent with and diligently move through, um, through the life of our children's, uh, years that God's given them in our home in the first place. And, and I appreciate that long view. I think again, as Americans, I think, you know, we're instamatic everything, you know, it's gotta be done today and we need to see results tomorrow. Otherwise it's useless. Um, Family worship doesn't always give us the results the day after we do it. Sometimes it takes months and maybe even years to show itself. I want to come back to the simplicity thing because I think it helps highlight one aspect of the book that I think would be a huge help for those who may be listening to this discussion and they're thinking, you know, I really need to start doing something like this. I'm a father. I'm failing. I'm blowing this miserably. I know I should be doing it. I just, I wrestle with these things. But I don't know where to start. And though you have a whole chapter on that subject, the appendix of the book is what a benefit to have. I wish I had something like this when I started understanding, even understanding family worship when my children were, my oldest was about eight years old. I didn't even know what to do. I mean, other than just sit down and read the Bible, but I thought, well, I could just read the Bible to them. How do I know they're understanding anything I'm saying? I mean, is that actually accomplishing anything? I mean, I think you know what I mean. And having this appendix here is very, very helpful. And I really appreciate the fact that you put them in here just for the listener's benefit. There's just basically sample family worship structures. And, you know, we're talking about keeping it simple. Let me just read the first one really just briefly, just so you can get a flavor of what we mean by simple. So, Sample number one. There's there's a number of these in the back the Word of God read John 15 Singing allow the children to pick their favorite hymn Memorization there's a verse and then prayer each member of the family praise That's it. There you go. Yeah Yeah, my nine pages long, you know with we're gonna recite the Apostles Creed never gonna read the Westminster confession of faith and then we're gonna my poor kids must hated it. But it's just a wonderful simple process and then you have other ones that are a little more involved and I think what I like about it that you can gear these for the ages of your children so you know you have a as you mentioned you have a younger children so you you keep it really simple as your children get older you you build on that you don't get smaller you build on it and so I think the appendix is worth the book frankly anyway for any father who might be struggling with just what to do. Maybe they already know they should But here they have this very well laid out and just take it and just adopt it to your own family and press forward. Let me ask you some practical questions. And, you know, as I was reflecting on my own life and hope and can't believe I'm alone in some of these struggles. How do you help a father and you're a pastor, how do you help a father who, who comes to you and says, you know, pastor, I, I, I agree with you. I want to do it, but I'm exhausted. Every single day I come, my job is incredibly difficult and I just can't. How do you get them to the, over that can't hump in the first place? Cause I think oftentimes that's really the problem. It's not that they don't, they don't see the value. It's that they just don't have it left. They're gone. They're spent. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, as a pastor, I probably want to first talk through, I mean, Is he really convicted that this is a good thing for his family, that this is something that's his responsibility? And I think we'll start from that. So we'll say, okay, Lord is Lord of the conscience. And it appears that he's pricked your conscience that this is a good thing for you and your family. And so then I want to encourage him in it. Say, all right, it's hard for you when you come home from a long day of work. So let's talk about something that might be helpful for you. So choose a good time. I think a lot of fathers, that's true, coming home from a long day of work, it's just not the prime time for them. And it may be that they're not walking out the door that morning till 7.30 or maybe even 8 o'clock to get to work at 9 or 8 o'clock. So you know what, maybe a good time to do it instead is in the morning, to gather your family around the breakfast table and take 15 minutes there before you head off to your day and say, you know, we're going to do this together every morning as a family. As I say in the book, I think every family has to find its own kind of rhythm. For my family, it just does not work in the morning. It just wouldn't work well. I'm usually out the door very early, trying to get out the door at 6.30 or 7 o'clock. My wife isn't a morning person, so it just would not work in my family to do it in the morning. It does work for us to do it in the evening after dinner. It may be as my kids get older and have more after-school activities that it's not going to work that way. I've got to think about pushing back my day. maybe hanging around a little later in the morning because I have that flexibility. Some husbands work around the corner, so they come home during the day and have worship with their wife during the lunch hour. So I think finding the right rhythm for your family at the right time. I would just have all of us think through, if this is something that my conscience is pricked by, that I do think is my responsibility and it's something that's beneficial for my family and is a good way to love them and to share Christ with them and to teach them about God and what God has done, then let's follow through on that. It's not enough just to say, yeah, It's a good thing and I wish we had the energy and the time to do it. Let's mold our family around this. Let's take our schedules and let's take our time and let's mold it around it. It may not be easy. It may mean that I'm coming home tired from a long day and the only time that we can find to do family worship is before or after dinner or even around the dinner table. It's hard work for me. It's work worth doing. It's a joyful responsibility worth employing and engaging in. I think about that day when my kids are finally absent from my home after 18, 20, 22 years, however long it is. When I look back, am I going to regret having labored through those nights after a long day? gathered together with my family for 15 or 20 minutes. Well, I look back and say, and I wish I hadn't done that because I was so tired. I don't think that'll be the case. I think I'll look back and say, no, I'm glad that we labored through those hard evenings when, you know, in some ways, uh, it was just even more tiring to engage in this. Um, but I think we'll look back and say, no, I'm, That was one of the best decisions I made as a father. And I think as a husband, I think there are many husbands that look back and they say, I didn't do this with my kids and wish I had. And as I encourage them, it's not too late to start family worship in your home. You do that with your wife now. Seize those opportunities now. Yeah, I was going to ask you about that. certainly there's going to be people like myself who their children are raised or grown and They're compelled to pick up this book and read it and there's even though there might be thinking the back of their head Well, I don't have a family to do family worship with anymore. Well, you just answered one side of that That's simply not true. You have a wife and it's still your responsibility to spiritually guide and lead her But how do you help them overcome the reality that they look back and through the lives of their children they say you know i just i really failed in this area i would say you know christian father christian husband uh... you remind yourself of all those days that you did plant the word of god uh... did so it uh... by god's grace and your children's lives and and your wife's life or if you're a mother you know, in your children's lives that you say, we talked about the things of God. You remind yourself of that. You remind yourself that you brought them, uh, hopefully to corporate worship, uh, weekly. And you remind yourself of the feed that was scattered each week there. And, um, and you remind yourself that this is a gracious God and that he is gracious to our covenant children and that you were, banking the hope of their salvation and the fruit that is born upon God's grace and God's working. Family worship is not a pill that one takes and it's a guarantee that children come to saving faith. It's not a secret weapon in that regard. It's just one of the means of grace that God has given to us. I think that does shape our children, and to build them in the things of Christ, and to shape our homes. So it's not the end of all things, and it's not something I think a father or a husband should beat himself up about, because those are days that have passed. But it should be an encouragement if he is now convicted that, man, he wishes he had done that in the years that have already passed. If that conviction is there, then it should wake him up to the reality that he has today. And so with his wife today, he should be doing this. And when his grandchildren and children come over to his house to have dinner, then do it with them then. When you're gathering together for Christmas, you do it then. I always think of a pastor friend of mine that I labored with years ago in another state. He was a dear friend. I remember him coming to me one day and he said, Jason, he was in his late fifties, early sixties. And he said, Jason, he said, I've just not loved my wife. Well, uh, I haven't been a good husband. And I remember saying to him, I said to him, I said, you can be now. And he said, no, too many years have just gone by. Uh, I said to him, no, it's not too late, you can now. And I think that's a reality we have to consistently remind ourselves of in Christ, is that though I may have regrets, and though there are things that I wish I would have done better, and that I could have done better, and we all have those, no matter how good of parents we are, or good husbands we are, or good mothers we are, there are always going to be things that we could have done better in Christ. And so I remind myself that that today I need to labor well in Christ and seek Christ today and rely upon His grace today, and it is never too late. We serve a God who has immeasurable riches and works sovereignly by a power that is unrestrained. And so I want to labor in these things well today and not just have regret for yesterday and let that shaped my living today to where I'm just in this despair and anguish now. If I have conviction about yesterday, then let me labor all the harder for him today. Very wise words and helpful, I think, as well. A question occurred to me, probably born out of my own experience, more than likely. What is your counsel to wives Because it's been my experience that wives in a Christian home, wives that are loving the Lord, walking with the Lord. I'm not talking about a situation where there's a believing wife and an unbelieving husband. I'm talking about two believing parents. The wife is very desirous to see her husband take the lead in this subject of family worship. The husband doesn't, won't, refuses to, whatever the case may be. What would you say to the wife in those situations? Yes, that's a great question. Because I think this is often reality, at least in our churches. I think a lot of times, we as husbands and fathers, we struggle to pick up the mantle that is ours and that responsibility, and I think often it is our wives that are more godly than we are and that are encouraging us in the things of Christ. and that the Lord uses in our lives to spur us on to righteousness. I guess I would say that those wives, as they think about it, they want to always have in their mind the command of God that is consistent throughout the Scriptures regarding the wife's relationship to the husband, and that is that they are to honor their husband. I think as a wife is trying to encourage her husband to lead them in family worship or to engage in family worship, she always wants to do it with a measure of honor, and where that honor and that respect is governing her encouragement to her husband. So I think there are ways to do it that is honorable, and there are ways that are doing it that, you know, as Scripture saw about kind of being a dripping faucet, and And so I think a wife wants to do it in a gentle way, in a gracious way, in a way that is encouraging her husband that this is a way that she really wants him to love her and to love her children. And I think she can always have in the back of her mind is she knows her husband well. She's been married to him. We know each other well after we've been married for years. have seen each other's struggles and sins and failures, and she needs to remind herself of that in the back of her mind of why this may be a struggle for him. Maybe he's not confident in spiritual things and leading this family, or he's anxious about the fact that maybe she is more spiritually mature than him. anxious of the questions that will be asked, or that he will have to lead in prayer. So I think there are different suggestions that a wife can make about how they approach family worship that can relieve her husband of some of these fears or some of these burdens that he may feel. I think the other is what we've talked about. I think she can communicate in a wise and good way that that she's not expecting him to be some monumental Christian figure, but that she's just looking for him to be the husband and father of the home and just to do something simply with the children and with her. Over the years that will grow and that will take on new dynamics. but that she's just looking for him just to read the word and just to pray and maybe she's praying and she's helping to lead the song or something, but just to remind him that it's something that's simple. Sure. Probably not a good idea to tell the wife to go in the living room turn the TV off on the husband and drop the kids there and just start doing it. Oh, that's probably not a good wise plan. Probably not the way to go. It's probably been tried with probably equally horrible results as well. As we wrap up here, I just want to touch base. I know we didn't talk about all the chapters and I tend to do that on purpose so that people buy the book. I think I've said that once already. The chapter nine is very, I think very helpful because you present people in this chapter that have either struggle with some of these issues at one time or another but the bottom line is they actually retell their story when it comes to this subject and uh... i'm curious uh... these people uh... how did you get to know that did you personally know these individuals i was soon you did but yet uh... yet chapter nine your comment is uh... just do it but the whole nike deal right that's right just do it and it's a I have some testimonies from different families that have practiced family worship, and they're all families that I've either served as their pastor or are friends that I've known through other people. Each of them I just wrote an email to and asked them if they'd just be willing to write a few paragraphs about their own experience of family worship. It was an awful lot of fun to get them in reply. just to see, you know, that we have similar struggles and similar things that we've gone through and seen similar benefits. So we didn't edit them. We just kind of, we put them in there after they'd each replied. And I think people will find them to be a wonderful encouragement of different struggles that a mother is having or that a father now that is an empty nester and he and his wife, the different struggles they've had and the different joys that they've experienced in the midst of it, or a single father and how he has engaged in family worship and just the different experiences that they've been through. I know I found encouragement to me and I think many readers, as you've expressed, have found encouragement as well as they go through the book. Yeah, they read these stories and they think, hey, I'm not alone. I'm not the only person out there that wrestles with this. But in some sense, you see the benefits before you actually enjoy the benefits in your own home. You see other families reaping the benefits of these things. And that's a very big help, especially for us men who get so, well, men like me, especially, who just get so focused on one specific thing and don't And then when that's done, it's like, okay, I've done my duty for the day. And forgetting that there's more duty that still, uh, still lies ahead. And, um, I know my, my own wife, um, modeled, I think if I could go that far, um, what I was asking you about, about wives, where she would just hear the occasional remark or suggestion or encouragement. It wasn't brow beating. It wasn't, uh, you know, it wasn't, uh, well, What's the word that women hate? Nagging. They don't, it wasn't nagging. It was just the, you know, a little reminder, a friendly email at work or some, the text message, you know, something that just kind of nudged me in that, in a direction because she knew that I, I'm not opposed or against. It's just, I need to be encouraged a little bit more to move in that direction. And, and I, I'm sure I'm not alone. Um, And as we wrap up this discussion, I think our guest's desire, and mine as well, would be, number one, buy the book and read it, because I think you will profit from this. It's not overly long. You could probably, if you're a diligent reader, you could probably read it in a few hours. It's not overly long, but the material in there, it's written in such a way that it's really encouraging. I didn't come away feeling like the beat up bum father who blew it. uh... i came away realizing that i did make mistakes i did air in certain ways but i also came with the reality that you know i still have a wife uh... my children are grown now uh... but i still have a wife and i thought this responsibility and and and i'm encouraged in that direction i'm not discouraged in that direction not living in the despondency i'm i'm looking forward to the to the benefits that are presented here so read the book and i think you'd be blessed encouraged in this area uh... And it's extremely practical. It's not heavily laden with theological language that you're going to have to look up in a dictionary. It's nothing, no offense to the author, but I don't think that was his intention. It's very based and framed in scriptural principles driving forward into the subject. And I really think, you know, we would see our churches in the corporate sense strengthened families would be more diligent in this area not weakened and I maybe I wish I could prove this is there a corollary is there a correlation between our churches week the weakness in the church to the weakness in this department I don't know maybe I guess I can never prove it but I'm suspicious anyway of that Jason give any final words encouragement for the listeners on this subject I know it's it's obviously near near very near and dear to your own heart. But while you're answering that, why don't you tell us how to get the book as well? Yeah, I think that what I would just encourage our listeners, one of the most encouraging things that I think that you've said in this and that anybody can say to me is that the book is simple. And I want people to read it and get done with it and go, yeah, this is simple and this makes complete and utter sense. I could have written that book. That's my hope, is that people get done with it, and they read it, and they go, yeah, this isn't rock and science. This is easy, and they begin to engage in it as families, or this just spurs them on to practice family worship even more so as a family if they're already practicing it. That would be, to me, one of the greatest encouragements to hear from people. I just want to see people just do it, because I think it has I know that it has wonderful benefits for our families. It has eternal and everlasting benefits, and so I would encourage people to engage in it. The book, you can find it anywhere where they sell books, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Westminster Theological Seminary. Christian Focus is the publisher, so you can obviously get it from them directly, but anywhere You can get Christian books. You can find the book. Right. And I will have, of course, on the website when this broadcast is released, there will be a link, of course, for it pointing to one of those or a few of those resources for you to easily grab it as well. So again, I encourage you to get it. It's not overly expensive. I don't have the price in front of me. It doesn't make any difference. Who cares? Get it, read it, consume it, do it. Just like the last chapter of the book says. I mean, I really kind of chuckle when I think about the last chapter. Just do it. Okay, you've read all this stuff, now go get busy. And that's really, that's Christianity, right? We can theorize all day long about these things, but if we don't put something into practice, then it's just really a waste of time. And so get a hold of the book and I will make it very easy for you to do that on the website. Jason, it's been great to have you on. As I indicated to you off-air, I feel a little off-kilter today for some unknown reason. I don't feel like my normal self. I don't know what that is. I think it's my... I stopped drinking coffee. Maybe that's it. Well, that could be it. That's not a good idea with the start of seminary here happening in a year. Well, I shouldn't say I've stopped. I haven't, like, stop-stopped. I just have cut way back. I used to drink far too much, and now I'm pretty much a couple mugs a day, and that's about it. a pot of coffee before I leave the house in the morning. So I don't know if that's causing me to be a little more placid. Well, that's pretty funny. People who know me who hear that are going to start laughing because I'm far from placid. I'm very type A, but anyway. But I enjoy these kinds of conversations because to me this is practical Christianity, lived in the raw, this is the real deal. God has given us these children. They are not owed us. God has blessed us with them. They are His children. He has loaned them to us, as it were, and He has given us a responsibility to raise them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. I can't think of a better way to do that than to engage in this simple process, there it is, each day of just sitting down with your children, reading Scripture, showing your children, by example, that you love the Word of God enough to read it to them, and then teach them it as well, ask questions. Real quick story, an associate pastor of mine who visited with us while I'm here in Greenville, he was in town and he's got five girls. And they had family worship every day in my house when they were there. And they invited us, of course, to join them, but they were gonna have it. Because that's their practice, that's their habit, And it was simple. And I remember thinking that as they were doing it, I thought, this is, it's just simple. You know, he reads a section of scripture. He asked the children, a couple of questions, questions based on their age. And, um, then they pray together, then it's done. And I thought, wow, I could have done that. So why didn't I? And so what a simple process and it's just Christianity lived out and what a great responsibility, great responsibility, but great privilege as well. to lead our children in that way. So I very much appreciate the time you took to write the book and for talking with us as well on a subject that I hope Christians, fathers especially, really take seriously. Because I do think we'd see our church, the next generation of Christians, stronger, not weaker, just from this simple process each day. What a blessing it would be to see Christ's kingdom advance just from this simple uh... effort on a daily basis so jason thank you very much and uh... will be praying for you and your work up there and uh... lansing as you slowly move into the winter season but i think i don't know how i have a western new yorker kcm picked up on it but i'm from western new york i live my years in the snow i'm glad you have been well i appreciate that night appreciate being with you bill and uh... more than appreciate greenville and uh... Lord's blessings upon all the students as they start here this upcoming week with their studies. Yes, thank you very much. You've been listening to an interview with Jason, I'm going to say his name wrong again, hold on, I'll get it right, Holopoulos. I got it. Was that right? I learned something in this interview, okay. But anyway, he is the author of a book, A Neglected Grace, Family Worship in the Christian Home, a really excellent treatment of the subject, and I would strongly encourage you to read it. Sit down, read it with your wife, but regardless of how you do it, read it. And then do it, as the last chapter encourages you to do. And as I said, you'll be able to access that resource very easily on the website at confessingourhope.com. Coming up next week, I'll be speaking with a man I was supposed to speak with a couple weeks ago, but it got delayed, but it's been rescheduled for next Monday. Peter Hubbard will be sitting down with me and talking about the topic of homosexuality. How should the church respond to people who struggle with same-sex attraction? It's a reality in our church, friends. We can't ignore it any longer. And we have to be able to biblically respond in a loving way to this situation. And so we're going to sit down with Peter Hubbard and talk with him on this subject that we all really need to get a grip on, I think, at least at some level in our world. today. There's more coming up. Go to the website, you'll find all that information there. So until next week, we do thank you for listening to this discussion, one that I really trust God will use to encourage men, especially fathers in the home, to be diligent, to raise their children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord in this way, using this means of grace that God has blessed us with. What a blessing it is. So, until next time, we do thank you for listening to this edition of Confessing Our Hope, the podcast of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. And God bless.