Welcome to the Contending for the Word podcast. A podcast devoted to helping inform, educate, equip, and warn people about false teachers, false movements, and unbiblical philosophies. Now join our host for today's episode and enjoy. All right, everybody, welcome back to the Contending for the Word podcast. My name is Dave, and I'm one of the hosts for this show, and today we have a special guest. This is, I think, your first time on this show. She's been on some other shows that we have here at Servants of Grace, but it's Marsha Montenegro. Marsha, welcome to Contending for the Word, sister. Hello, Dave. Thank you so much for having me as your guest. Yeah, we always have the best conversations. So I'm really excited about this one and hope it'll be really helpful for people. But can you just tell us briefly, I think this is your first time on here, so tell us about your life, marriage, and what are you up to ministry project-wise? Okay, well, I have a ministry, Christian Answers for the New Age, and I've been doing it full-time since 1998. Believe it or not, that's a few years ago. And I was formally involved in the new age, very deeply involved. I was a professional astrologer and very involved in Zen Buddhism. And the Lord intervened and out of his mercy and grace, drew me to Jesus Christ in really sort of a miraculous way, I would say, but it was over a period of time. But then I saw who Christ was. Completely changed my life, of course. And then later I had opportunities to share my story and to talk about the new age. And that led into a full-time ministry in 1998, which has kept me very, very busy because a lot of the things I was involved in as a new ager have gone mainstream in the culture. Some of them are in the church. It's very deceptive. So I do a lot of writing. I have a website, christiananswersnewage.com. I have two books and I also have written a lot of articles and I've done a lot of talks. Traveling before the pandemic, I had spoken in 30 states. Of course, I did not travel after that. And I haven't really traveled since due to some health issues. But I'm keeping very active speaking online and doing Zoom talks and things like that. So that's pretty much what I do. And I do deal with issues that don't seem totally new age, but they're related. And sometimes the way they're related is the kind of thinking that's involved. So the kind of thinking I had in the new age, I often see in these other things, like what we're gonna talk about today, I see the same kind of thinking. And so it's really important to recognize that. And it's not a biblical way of assessing things. So that's what we want to do, the biblical way of thinking. So that's how I address other things, because they're related in that way. Yeah, Marsha does a great job on her Facebook, on her articles. She will 100% help you understand the issue and then help you understand what God's Word says. So guys, today we are gonna talk about somebody that is extremely popular today. I think the best way, and you can chime in on this too, to say it is this man that we're gonna talk about today, John Mark Comer. is extremely popular among millennials and Gen X and maybe other young adults. So I'm just going to lay out a little bit of his influence here. So John Mark Comer was leading a Portland megachurch called Solid Rock. This church experienced a tremendous amount of growth. Amidst that growth, he burned out and Solid Church dissolved as a megachurch, choosing instead for each franchise to become an independent church. John Mark Comer chose to pastor the Bridgetown location. This location was not the largest. Now he's a motivational speaker, author. He has a ministry called Practicing the Way, which is also a book. And I just recently saw on his website that he says he's a teacher at Vintage Church LA, although I also went to that website and he's not listed on the church. So that might be because it's new or something like that. So we want to give the benefit of the doubt there. I don't know enough about that, but it's worth noting. John Mark has 190,000 followers as of like yesterday when I looked on Instagram, 24,000 on Facebook. His podcast Practicing the Way is regularly one of the top, I think it's 10, 15, 20 podcasts. and the religion and spiritual category under Christianity on Apple Podcasts. His YouTube, as of this recording, which was today, we're recording here, but I looked this up yesterday, his YouTube has 16.4K subscribers. So this man has a substantial influence, you know, his views on spiritual formation. Some people are calling this like Trevin Wax at the Gospel Coalition is saying that, you know, he's having a dramatic influence on people's understanding of spiritual growth. formation and so yeah this guy that I've actually been asked would you do something on this guy by multiple people and I know when I when I approached Marsha and saw that she had written on this she said Dave I'm hearing about this all the time so and and by the way just so people know I actually live in Oregon. I'm in south central Oregon and so pretty much like right in the middle-ish area of the state and so you know Portland is only a couple hours away where he would have pastored and so I'm in this I've had people in my area ask me would you speak about John Mark Comer because he's having a Such an influence in among people that they know in And so that's how I got on my radar and then other people started asking me would you do something on this? And so I'm seeing that this will probably be something that I do again Because I've also watched videos, but before we get too far down the road here Do you have anything that you want to add to what I've already said Marcia. I Um, I, well, I just, it's not really adding, it's kind of reaffirming what you just said. And yes, it is true that I am getting a lot of questions about John Mark Homer. Actually, I started getting asked about him a few years ago, I think in 2020, or maybe the end of 2019. And I can't remember if I'd heard of his name or not. But I decided to look into him because after two or three people asked me, then I think, okay, this is maybe somebody I should take a look at. And so, you know, one of the first things I noticed was a quote that he gave and that set my alarm bells ringing really loudly. And I did a post on that. I looked into him a little bit and did some posts on him. And then after that, people continued to ask me about him. So I knew he was getting more popular. This was when he was still at Bridgetown Church in Portland. But he was definitely influencing that area very heavily. He's good friends with Tim Mackey. Tim Mackey has a lot of influence. So together, there was a lot of influence coming from both of them. And as I continued to check on him, he was continuing to do different things, started being very big on the Enneagram. And of course, that's a topic that I started investigating quite a long time ago and ended up doing a book on and with two other people. And so I kept writing Facebook posts on him. And then when he left the church, he stepped down and just he went to L.A. to devote himself to this enterprise he calls practicing the way. Then it seemed all of a sudden like it mushroomed. because then I began getting even more messages from people saying, you know, my pastor wants us to start using John Mark Homer's materials, or my Sunday school teacher wants us to go through practicing the way. And this just became this constant thing. So I decided to read Practicing the Way, the book, which I have right here, and I have an article on it. And I think from the statistics you just gave, That does show his influence has grown since I first started looking at him in 2020. And I think it's continuing to grow because his materials are continuing to reach churches. And this book, Practicing the Way, is making its way into churches. So this is an issue that needs to be addressed because I would even go so far to say is he's heterodox, which I don't know if you want to define that or not. Go ahead. Okay. So, you know, heterodox is where you're departing from some teachings of the historic faith. It doesn't mean you're denying any of the essentials, and it doesn't mean you're a heretic. So, you know, that's why the word heterodox exists, because it doesn't mean heretical. But it does mean that you're departing enough that it's problematic. And that is right now where I would put John Mark Homer based on what I know about him today. So if anybody is in that category and they're that popular, then they need to be examined and discussed. in my opinion. Absolutely. And you know, we always want to be as charitable as possible, right? We want to commend what is commendable because nobody wants to hear anybody put on blast or anything like that. you know, on his website, he talks about a pathway for apprenticeship to Jesus. He sees a crisis in discipleship and wants to, you know, provide a resource to help people. That's 100% a good desire. You know, like I mentioned, there's an article by Trevin Wax on the three waves of evangelicalism, and Trevin writes about concerns that he has with John Mark Comer. But just pausing here to say, the desire to help people become fully devoted followers of Christ's disciples, i.e., learners of Christ, is 100% we would both say, and anybody would say that knows the Bible, a good thing. We do have a crisis of discipleship. But it reminds me, this emphasis on discipleship, it kind of reminds me, and I'm not saying that there's a connection between it, But I'm saying that it reminds me and I was thinking about this before we recorded It just hit me like this really reminds me this desire for discipleship. It reminds me of the emerging church, which was a conversation We know about about discipleship. They wanted people to become disciples, but of course we learned about what what kind of discipleship that was ie it wasn't discipleship because it was divorced from the Bible and We know what that movement did. It totally denied distinction between a man and a woman, promoted homosexuality, denied that Christ died in our place and for our sins, and on and on. We're living with the consequence of that movement. So it just makes me think maybe that That might play into it. I don't know. I don't know if that's right or not I'm saying that there's a one-to-one correlation, but it could be a an influence that leads to Somebody like John Mark Comer being influential thoughts or am I off track here? No, no, I I agree with you and and that's true the you know thinking about the emerging church and how they started off and it and Everything was good intentions and what they saw the you know, the younger generation not really coming to church and they wanted to um, get them back in into church and so they started doing different formats to Make them interested like church was kind of like a coffee house and things like that And i'm not i'm not really not against that though. What matters is what are you teaching? How are you using scripture? You know, you can sit there and drink coffee, but if you're doing scripture right, that's fine with me. So, you know, but the problem is, is that they kept going with those ideas of reforming things and it went past using the Bible correctly and even, you know, rejecting some of it. And so, you know, I think with Comer, his intentions are good. I think he did see that there's a lot of problems in churches. that discipleship maybe isn't being practiced or practiced like it should be. And so he has his own ideas about that and it's bringing them to the table. But the problem is, I don't think that this is biblical discipleship. So once you go, once you set your foot just a little few inches away from the straight path, then you're gonna go crooked. like the emerging church did. And that's what I'm afraid may happen with Comer, that he may get more and more heterodox. And then at some point that gets really, you know, then you really have an issue of, is this person even teaching Christianity? So, you know, we're not there with him now, but he does say some very troubling things about Jesus and about scripture and he's teaching some things that aren't biblical. So let's dive into that. Okay. You're mentioning some of the concerns about John Mark Comer and the things that could potentially be issues down the road. I know that who he associates with is deeply concerning. So what are some of the influences on John Mark Comer as it stands today? Yes, some of the things, well, one of the big things is what I call the contemplative movement. And this is this whole movement that I think was really, I think it really started more or less with Thomas Merton, the Catholic monk who died in 1968. But his influence on a lot of people ended up partly in the contemplative prayer movement or centering prayer movement that was started by three Trappist monks. And that was in the, I think the very late, like maybe 1979 or something, or the early eighties, I can't remember now. And then their movement became, for a while there wasn't, I don't think real incredibly popular, but then it started getting more headway, making more headway. into churches, and not Catholic churches, but I mean, you know, even evangelical churches. Peter Scazzaro, for example, had one of those three Trappist monks speak at his church. And it should be known to anybody listening that John Mark Comer has a Jesuit spiritual director. This is all coming from that contemplative prayer movement. which then, it then gave birth to many other teachers in the church who started teaching these methods that they call either spiritual practices or spiritual formation. It seems very biblical, but when you look at it, it's really coming from medieval monasticism, techniques from Eastern meditation taught as prayer, and other ideas from this book called The Cloud of Unknowing, which was a 14th century book written by, they don't know who wrote it because it's anonymous, but they think it was written by a monk. And the ideas from The Cloud of Unknowing and Eastern meditation methods and medieval monasticism have all coalesced into this movement, the contemplative prayer movement. So it's kind of a tangle of different things. that I have been looking at since the late 1990s. I have been aware of this and following and tracking it. I've probably written, I don't know, I have at least 12 articles on my website that deal with this topic. So John Mark Comer is one of the proponents of this, and he doesn't use those words. I don't know that he uses the word contemplative. He doesn't use the language necessarily, but that's what he's teaching. And in this book, Practicing the Way, he quotes and refers to so many mystics, including a lot of Roman Catholic mystics, that it's hard to even keep count. I listed some of them in my article. They're different mystics. Some of them are Quakers like Thomas Kelly. And of course, John Mark Comer was a big fan of Dallas Willard and also of Richard Foster. He really, really admires both of them. And he refers to them, especially Dallas Willard in this book, without going, I know we don't have time to go into Dallas Willard, but Dallas Willard's theology is very problematic. How he used to be, I don't know, because I know he was highly regarded. He was Baptist. He was a philosopher. But I tried to read his book on spiritual disciplines, and I just, I found so many issues with it, I had to stop reading it. But they were very hard to articulate. I read this several years ago, and I was a bit younger in the faith, but I couldn't, it did not strike me as anything coming from scripture. But since then, I have looked at Dallas Willard again, and I have two articles related to him on my website. And yes, he taught some very problematic things. even about salvation. So this is who John Mark Comer looks up to and quotes. So that's one huge influence, one big thing on John Mark Comer. John Mark Comer also, the way he assesses scripture He seems to rely more on experience than scripture. This is one of the things I've noticed with people who like the contemplative teachings. They go very much by experience. And this is where I can relate as a former New Ager, because that's how you live as a New Ager. You live by experience. Experience is your truth. You know, you glean truth or what you consider to be truth from your experiences. and maybe the experiences of others. And he does that a lot. He also, some of the things he says, some of the things he says about scripture and the way he interprets it, I give several examples here. I could maybe give one. But before I do that, I do want to mention that I have to wonder if he denies penal substitutionary atonement. The reason I say that is because he has a statement in his book which says on page eight, to a large number of Western Christians, he, meaning Jesus, is a delivery mechanism for a particular theory of atonement, as if the only reason he came was to die, not to live. Now, that was a sentence that raised a lot of red flags for me. for many reasons. First of all, the use of Western Christians, that is a term that was also used by the emergents who are now really the progressive Christianity. And so progressive Christianity uses this term a lot, like West, the Western church and Western Christianity, you know, is getting it wrong. we have neglected what Jesus was really talking about because Jesus was Eastern. And John Mark Comer has said in a video that Jesus was Eastern. So I have a big issue with this because Jesus was Middle Eastern. He wasn't Eastern. You know, as a man, I mean, he was Jewish. That would make him Middle Eastern. When you say Eastern, You know, I tend to think of Eastern as more like India and, you know, Southeast Asia and China and Japan. That's what I call Eastern. I don't call Israel or the Jewish culture Eastern. So there's this they make this false dichotomy between Western and Eastern. And Jesus was Eastern. And so the Western church, because we're so Western, we're blind to some things that Jesus said. And that's the very strong implication that Comer has made. And in this book, when he talks about Western Christians, that's what he means based on many, many, many videos I've watched of John Mark Comer. So I also wonder when he says a particular theory of atonement, does he have a beef with a particular theory of atonement? I mean, it makes you wonder. Like, why is he even bringing that up? Why is he even talking about a theory of atonement? So that's why I had to question, you know, does he accept penal substitutionary atonement? And I did a Facebook post on this and someone who had been in his church told me that he did not, that he did not accept penal substitutionary atonement. So, you know, I can't remember if I have come across more on that or not. I don't think I have because I focused on other issues. But it wouldn't surprise me, really, that if he he didn't accept that. So that's a very problematic statement you have right at the beginning of the book. And also saying as if the only reason he came to die. Well, I think that the Gospels make it pretty clear that Jesus came He came and he offered the kingdom. He came as the Messiah, the long-awaited Messiah. He came as the God-man, as the Son of God. But he also talked about he would have to go to Jerusalem and suffer many things. And on the third day, he would be killed and on the third day be raised. That's in Matthew 16 and some other places in Matthew and the other Gospels. And then he went to Jerusalem. He was resolutely set his face to go to Jerusalem. So Jesus knew, of course, he was going to go to the cross, and he said he came to give his life as a ransom for many. So his death is very, very important. This is a theme of the Gospels and the New Testament, but it's almost like John Mark Comer kind of downplays it there. I think that that kind of fits in with the way Comer approaches things. He downplays things that I think are major, and he focuses on other things that either aren't major or I don't think are really biblical. So that was one area that bothers me. The other big area that people really need to know here is that in an essay that John Mark Comer wrote, and I need to make it clear, this is not in this book. Practicing the Way, it's not in here. But I think people need to know it, and that's why I included it in my article. I had done a Facebook post on this, and I thought it was important enough for people to know, because John Mark Comer has quoted heretic Richard Rohr on the definition of sin. In other words, instead of defining sin biblically, John Mark Comer has used Richard Rohr's definition. So I want to read what John Mark Comer wrote. This is an essay that's found on a mystical contemplative website. I give the link here. And it's called The Inward Journey. On the road to discovery, our identity and calling, we quickly bump up against the wall of sin. Now, this is John Mark Comer talking. Sin is a bit of a loaded religious word, but all it means is to miss the mark, to fall short of the life that God has for you. Richard Rohr defined sin this way, and now he quotes Richard Rohr. Sins are fixations that prevent the energy of life. God's love from flowing freely. They are self-erected blockades that cut us off from God, and hence, from our own authentic potential." That's the end of Richard Rohr's statement. And then John Mark Comer goes on and says, so if we want to experience God, the source of life, and reach our full potential, we have to find a way past the blockades in our life i.e., our sin. But our sin is more than just our behavior, it's our shadow side, which Pete Scazzaro defined as the accumulation of untamed emotions, less than pure motives and thoughts, that while largely unconscious, strongly influence and shape your behaviors, it is the damaged but mostly hidden version of who you are, close quote. So there he quotes Peter Scazzaro, who's another problematic teacher, I have articles on him. He's very influenced by Roar as well. And then Comer goes on to say, the tricky thing is that we are often blind to our own shadow side. The human capacity for self-deception is staggering. Well, he's definitely right on the human capacity for self-deception because I think everything he wrote right here is an example of self-deception. One tool that followers of Jesus have used for over a millennia and a half to reveal and repent of our shadow side notice repent of our shadow side instead of sin, is the Enneagram, a theory of personality test that deals with your root sin and root motivation. So there you have the whole, it's not the whole essay, but it's a big chunk of it. And as you see here, he minimizes sin, because it's a bit of a loaded religious word, but all it means is to miss the mark. So hey, you know, it's a problem for us but let's not make too big a deal of it. I mean, that's the sense I get from the way he writes that. And it means to fall short of a life that God has for you. Well, that's definitely a result of sin, but is that what sin is? Isn't sin an offense to God, a transgression of God's law? It's going against God. This is what sin is. It's against God. But I think he minimizes it in that first sentence. And then he minimizes it even more or rather redefines it by using Richard War's definition that sins are something that prevents the energy of God's love from flowing freely in your life. And it's a blockade that cuts you off from God and your own authentic potential. So now sin is a problem because it's keeping you from reaching your authentic potential. Now, it's not surprising Richard Warr would say this, because Richard Warr doesn't believe sin is a problem. Richard Warr doesn't think sin separates us from God, because he thinks we've always been in God. So sin is not a big deal to him, and he also doesn't think Jesus died for sins. But yet, he uses a definition for sin from Richard Warr, who thinks all those things. And then he quotes Peter Scazzaro about the shadow side, which comes from Carl Jung, who had very pagan views. Carl Jung was a big influence on astrology, so I'm very familiar with a lot of Carl Jung's ideas, because we use them in astrology. And then he quotes Peter Scazzaro, which also minimizes sin, and comes up with this thing. So what's the example? I mean, what's the answer for our problem, our sin problem here? Well, we have to use this tool that Jesus that followers of Jesus have used supposedly for over a thousand years and repent of our shadow side. And that's the answer to the sin problem. And there's so many errors in there, Dave. I mean, the whole thing is completely false. Everything in here is false. And for anybody who says that's what sin is and that's how he's going to define it, he's going to use a heretic a problematic teacher influenced by Carl Jung, like Peter Scazzaro, and that man is in all of these churches. This book is in all these churches. And that's why I put that in here in my article on this book, so that people researching this book will see what he said here, because it's not in the book. And this is much more upfront in a problematic way than some of the things in the book, which are more subtle. So I think that that right there is enough to say, you know, this is not a teacher we want in our church. This is not somebody that is talking about sin from the biblical viewpoint or, you know, what God says it is. So it's important to know this because in this book, John Mark Comer claims he's talking about the gospel and he's talking about Jesus and he's talking about what we're supposed to do to be disciples. Therefore, if you have somebody teaching, you know, how to be a disciple of Jesus, then you want to know how do they define the gospel and how do they define sin. And he doesn't define, he doesn't define sin correctly. He redefines it. So that's, you know, that right there is one of the biggest things that I wanted to express. And then there was one more thing I want, not just one more thing to say, but along with that, I wanted to read this. This is on page 30. I have this in my article. He says, we talk a lot about the call to believe in Jesus, to put your trust and confidence in him, to lead you to life. This is good and fitting, but it must also be said that Jesus believes in you. He believes that you can become his apprentice. Starting right where you are, you can follow him into a life in the kingdom that fulfills your deepest desires. Okay, this again, I think you would agree is Incredibly problematic. Jesus does not believe. Jesus doesn't believe in anything because he doesn't need to believe in anything because he knows everything. There's no need for Jesus to believe anything. It doesn't even make sense. And that Jesus believes in you? No. Jesus knows that you're a sinner, and if you're a Christian, he knows you've been saved only by the work on the cross, that he paid the penalty for your sin. It has nothing to do with Jesus believing. He believes you can become his apprentice. Of course, this is not supported biblically. This is just John Mark Homer. This is his theology. So those are some theological points that I think are very problematic about sin and about Jesus believing in you. I give quotes from scripture showing how Jesus, he knew all men. He did not need Anyone to testify concerning man for he himself knew what was in man, John 2, 24 to 26. I give quotes against that. And I talk about how Jesus doesn't need to believe and doesn't believe in anything. So that's that particular section on some really high points that are theologically just false, basically. They're just false. I don't know what you'd like me to go to next. I could go to some more of the mystics and some of the things he says here about God that I found. Well, it's about God and scripture here. We'll pause there for just a second because I got quite a lot of thoughts. Imagine that. Everyone's like, Dave has thoughts. Oh boy, here we go. Hold on to your pants and you better get a mouth guard and some body armor for this. You know, this really reminds me a lot of like we were just talking about earlier about the emerging church, right? And Brian McLaren and Steve Chalk wrote about cosmic child abuse. And of course, we know that influenced Brian McLaren. And it just makes me think about his ideas of penal substitution. He would have learned that likely from, you know, Brian McLaren and Steve Chalk. But what I really wanted to say and what you're bringing out I watched some some videos. I was gonna use those but I'm gonna save those I think for another time He is very he's very slick in his presentation all these guys that we talked about. They're all very slick So yeah, but but if you if you don't pay attention so some of what he might say that ie the desire to be a disciple like we talked about I a great thing to do, to understand that we're learners and we're to be shaped and molded by the Word. Nothing wrong with that. But where it gets dicey is when you start, like you mentioned, redefining sin. Into something that it's not it's it's it's like when you were talking about I kept thinking of psychology and sort of self actualization just realize your potential and realize how how or what you are or something like that and which is totally the opposite of what the Bible, you know, basically be a good person and have self-esteem. Well, that's not in the Bible, where Romans 1-3 is very clear. It's Paul's magnum opus, it's been called. He's very clear. Before he even gets to the gospel, I mean, he talks about the gospel, you know, Romans 3-23 is followed by Romans 3-24, where he gives the gospel, but he starts with sin, and then he goes to talk about Christ. And then, you know, the opposite of, so even the desire, like you were talking about, we'll get into this in just a minute, but the mystical influences that he has from Richard Rohr and Dallas Willard and things, the opposite of that would be, you know, as Protestants, we have a rich tradition grounded in the Bible. We call this the means of grace. which is where we, you know, personally we're reading and studying and meditating and memorizing the Bible and applying it and then doing life with God's people under a biblically sound male pastor in the church where we fellowship and we do life with one another in small groups and so on and so forth. That's the opposite of this mystical thing that is focused on me and mine and this re- summary statement of everything. So everybody could be seduced by somebody like Richard Foster and Dallas Willard or those kind of things, but that's not what they're offering. What you're saying is that they're not offering truth grounded in the Word. But the opposite is that God actually has given us, you know, Psalm 1 for example, You look at Psalm 1 about biblical meditation. You look at how God says that we're to delight in the law of the Lord. Well, that's his word. Psalm 19, special revelation that God's word is what it is. It's true and trustworthy. And so we should, this understanding actually gives us a reason why we should read, study, meditate, and memorize and apply the word. and do life with God's people. But even above and beyond that, as it pertains to this conversation, it tells us why we should reject those mystical connotations, ideas of discipleship. Again, just to reiterate, The desire to have discipleship and help people become disciples is good, but when you remove, like we're both saying here, you remove somebody from the source that's actually gonna help them, and the means that God has given them, that's where we're gonna have a problem, and that's why we have to be so concerned about John Mark Carper. I think I would actually go, in light of what you said, Marsha, I don't want to push, I'm not pushing back on them, but for me, I think I would actually say that he has actually gone beyond what you said earlier, in light of what he's saying, and you know, I'm not saying he's not a Christian or anything like that, because I haven't looked into everything, but I do think that he is legitimately in error. Being that he is not teaching what the Bible says. I don't think he I don't know I don't have enough evidence to say that he's a heretic and meaning that he would be against what the church has taught but I definitely think that he is an error and I think that we should definitely be very concerned and he should be marked and I don't know about, I probably would go so far as to say avoid it too, especially in light of the sin issue and the penal substitutionary statement and the use of the Enneagram in your own words as a form of sanctification. So yeah, I think this is really concerning. This is actually more concerning than actually I thought it was and I thought it was actually pretty concerning because usually when people say, hey, you should look into this person, that's usually not a very good sign. And so what you just said is really good because it says, hey, I should probably spend a little bit more time looking at this guy to let people know, hey, we really should avoid this guy. And this is, by the way, Michelle Leslie made such a good point recently on, we're talking about John, Lisa Bevere, and I said, you know, this isn't personal and that it's a personal attack, but we personally are, her point was is that that's part of the answer, but the other side of it biblically is we are personally invested and care about the people who are misled you know, by them. And that's, that's really both of those statements are true biblically. And that, that expresses why we're talking about John Mark Comer. Yes, yes. There have been a lot, several people who actually have left their church because John Mark Comer was going to be introduced and studied. And in one case, one of the people that left was an elder and he tried to, you know, he brought up the concerns. And, you know, they were not taken seriously, or they were dismissed, or they, I don't know whether they thought it was really, he was a problem or not, but I guess they didn't. Well, they obviously didn't, because they decided to use Comer. And, you know, I keep getting things from people. And that's why I wanted to read that. section on sin because it's not in this book. So people reading this book don't know he said that and they're likely not to find it unless they've been following my Facebook page. They won't know about it. So I put that in this article so that people who are checking this book out will have it. And it's very relevant because of what he's claiming and what he's claiming to do, teaching discipleship according to Jesus. So I'm sorry, but if you don't get sin right, then you're not really talking about anything that is worthwhile. You've at least got to understand what sin is biblically before you can talk about solutions. What other concerns do you have about John Mark Comer, Marsha? Okay, yes. I have other concerns where he talks about, he's talking about knowledge about God, and he's talking about God, and he says here, it's on page 51, he's talking about prayer and God, and he's saying that we can pray without words. He quotes somebody who says that Prayer is really contemplative. Prayer is saying yes to God, but without words. And then Comer says, it's not that words in prayer are bad, they aren't. It's just that you reach a point in any relationship, but especially with God, where words and even thoughts no longer carry you forward toward intimacy. They bring you so far, but not all the way. They may even hold you back. Okay, now there's a very problematic statement about prayer, that prayer as it's modeled in scripture is going to hold you back, because prayer in scripture is always verbal. I mean, it always uses words. And so he's saying, well, that's not bad. Well, that's good that he doesn't think it's bad. But then he says, well, then you're going to reach this point where the words aren't going to carry you forward to intimacy. So in other words, you can't have true intimacy with God without this wordless, nonverbal prayer. And that's what all of the contemplatives that I have been critiquing say. And then he says here, God is not a concept or an emotion. And he's certainly not a doctrine in a statement of faith. or a chapter in a theology book. He is a person whose burning desire is to know and be known by you. And like in any intimate relationship, there is a kind of knowledge that goes beyond words, a kind you can get only by direct person to person experience. Now, Okay, let me see here. That is in the book, but I think it's a quote from somebody. It's really hard to tell because he doesn't have quotation marks. So I think it's something he's putting in his own words, but he's getting it from somebody else. Because he does have a footnote here. So I've got, and the footnote is, here's, well, let's see, I've got to make sure I'm in the right chapter. So I have to check this out real quickly here, because the way he has the book set up, it's kind of, it's hard to see what's the chapter and what isn't, because he doesn't have, I'll have to look at that later. But it's not, there's not a quote. So I think what he's doing is he's referring to someone, he refers to someone a couple of people in a few paragraphs before that, and he has quotes. Then what I just read is not in quotes. And actually, actually, I don't think he's referring to anyone. I think he is explaining what he's trying to say. Because this footnote here, and I think it's this footnote, this is why Christian mystics have long said sexual union and marriage is the ultimate example of our union with God. It starts with words, but goes far beyond that. into the intermingling of souls. And then he recommends a book by Christopher West, who I don't know, but it's called Fill These Hearts, God's Sex and the Universal Longing. And so what he's doing really, he's not quoting someone, he's explaining further what he means here. So here's my issue with this one. Yes, who says he has a lot of straw men in this book? No one said God is just a concept or an emotion. He has a lot of straw men. And nobody has said God is a doctrine in a statement of faith or a chapter. I don't know anybody who said God is a chapter in a theology book. Nobody says that. But that's straw man, a straw man thing. And then he says, God is a burning desire to know you and be known. And there's a knowledge that goes beyond words. OK, so I wrote, what kind of knowledge is beyond words? I guess Comer can't tell us because it is beyond words. That means it is esoteric, a Gnostic-type knowledge that cannot be communicated. Moreover, Comer is using words to say there is a knowledge beyond words. OK, it's self-refuting. So that's what I wrote about that quote. And he uses the word knowledge, not experiences, but he's saying that this knowledge comes from experience, which means one must have the experience. But God gave us his revelation in words. Scripture doesn't tell us we have to have a certain experience to get more knowledge. And how would we have this person to person experience? And that's what Comer is pushing. He's pushing, first he's selling the idea that we need more intimacy because regular prayer, like as modeled in scripture, doesn't go far enough. So we have to have more intimacy, but it's an intimacy beyond words, and that's going to come through experience, a person-to-person experience. So how do we have that? Well, the answer is you practice these mystical contemplative practices, and that's how you have this experience and this knowledge of God beyond words. This is very Gnostic. This is the part that reminds me so much of the New Age. because it's always something beyond words. Well, if it's something beyond words and it can't be communicated and it's nonverbal, but yet this is the way to really have intimacy with God. So you're also saying that scripture is not sufficient in giving you the tools or the means for knowing God intimately. That's what it's saying. But we know that we know God through Jesus Christ. And Jesus said that, and the Bible says that. We know that in the New Testament, we know God through Jesus Christ. We grow close to God through the means he has given us, reading his word through prayer as modeled in scripture. And as you mentioned at the beginning, I think through fellowship with other believers and serving Christ in the church, This is how we get closer to God. And so what they're doing is creating the idea that you aren't getting closer to God through those means. Scripture is insufficient. Therefore, you have to use these tools to have this experience that goes beyond words. See, that's what it's all boiling down to. And this message is not biblical. This is a Gnostic message. This is not a biblical message. Yeah, let's stop there for just a minute because I 100% agree with you. The thing that stands out to me is he immediately separates theology from prayer, which is, as you said, Scripture is totally 100% sufficient. It's clear. It's binding our lives. And so scripture is to inform our prayer life. But notice he separated theology from our prayer life. And when you do that, I mean, like you said, you're going to just do what you do in the Eastern mysticism. You're going to empty your mind rather than in a biblical meditation, you're filling your mind. That's why Paul can say in Philippians 4, think on these things. Thinking is actually one of the ways that the Bible describes meditating on the Word. That's why earlier in that same passage we're told to, in this context, we're to think on what is noble, pure, good, and lovely as it's in the Word, not just to separate our theology from our prayer lives. No. Theology is to inform our prayer life, which is to inform our discipleship. You can't be a disciple if you don't have theology. That was what was so concerning about the emerging church. We go back to the emerging church to say it, but that's what's so concerning about John Mark Comer and others like him. They're separating these, saying that a good thing that everybody should want Everybody should want, a Christian should want to be a disciple of Christ, but when you separate the theology attached to that term that has a meaning that Jesus gave, and then tell Christians that just engage, separate the theology from those practices, I mean, you're always gonna have a problem, and that's the problem that we're, that's the problem that you're discussing, I'm just drawing it out. And in the contrast to that, as Christians instead, we are to do what God says. We're to be biblically grounded disciples, and that's to effect then and give us reason for and fuel for reading and studying and meditating and doing all the other things that we've already talked about. Just to kind of put it out there since you're you're putting out the negative I'm just trying to put put the push back with the truth and say hey This is this is that this is that this is the truth and this is why what he's saying into what you're saying This is why it's so well not you're you're not saying to be clear. You're not supporting John Mark Kramer You're critiquing what John Mark Kramer says. I don't want anybody to misunderstand that But this is why God has given us the truth, and it's enough, to your point, it's enough for our prayer life, it's enough for our Bible reading life, it's enough for our church life, and the whole operation here for John the Marcomer is he wants to provide discipleship resources, remember, for the church, for Christians. But you cannot provide discipleship for Christians if your resource is not grounded in the Bible. And he separated theology, which is the study of God, which provides the fuel for everything in our life. That's just what I'm hearing and what I've seen with this. And remember what I said, he's so slick. All these guys are so slick. And so you have to really pay attention and you gotta know what the words mean. And once you know what the words mean, you can spot when people are saying things like that. And I'm just trying to draw this out so that when you see somebody like him, they're saying what they do, you know that, hey, I gotta, right now your defenses should be up. In scripture, the Bereans were, in Acts 17, 11, they searched the scriptures to see if these things are so. The Thessalonians were commended in 1 Thessalonians 2, 13, not for receiving the word of man, but the word from God. And that was because they did what Paul commanded them to do. In 1 Thessalonians 5, 21, they tested all the things and they were the example. And the Bereans were the illustration of that teaching. And so that's what we have to do as Christians. God has given us a sufficient word. And so we don't need some other word. We don't need, you know, having teachers is good. Teachers are supposed to help us, to teach us and instruct us. But when teachers deviate and go into error like John Mark Comer is doing and take you away from the truth, they're acting outside of the bounds that God has given us. And that's what's so dangerous about this guy, is he's so slick, so intelligent, and what he's saying is all bad, and it's absolutely not gonna lead you to the Bible. It's not going to lead you closer into your communion with God, your fellowship with God, and your fellowship with God's people. It's going to take you away, and that's not surprising because you just said an elder noticed this and warned about this and other people are concerned about that, and that's because God's given us His Holy Spirit. His Holy Spirit is going to teach you the truth. And when you feel uncomfortable with a teacher, maybe that's the Holy Spirit reminding you, hey, alerting you, hey, you shouldn't be listening or watching this person because they're not going to lead you into the truth. Or he even does that with various situations. It's not a feeling it's not a you know a pie-in-the-sky type mystical thing, but he he gives us these reminders and You know this these uncomfortable things He's reminding us that his word is enough and we need to go to his word and we need to test everything that they said With with what scripture says and I think when you do that like you're saying when you understand that this teacher is denying sin. When he's denying penal substitution, he's promoting the Enneagram as a means of sanctification. He's divorcing the practice of prayer from the Bible. You know, that's really, really concerning. And so, any thoughts on that? Yes, I mean, I agree with you. This is very, you know, everything I read in here was just got me more and more concerned. And you know, somebody told me that you know, he speaks, he's very soft spoken. And she said, I think that people just kind of, they're listening to him and they just kind of, you know, they're following him and they're not thinking about really what he's saying. It just, cause it sounds good. And he's speaking in this, you know, soft voice. And that's, you know, for people who hear him, I guess in person or on videos. And all these people seem to have this, this way of, of saying things that are actually, if you look at what they're saying sometimes, they're very concerning, but they're able to present it in such a manner that it doesn't sound concerning. Now, in the book, you're not hearing his voice, you're just reading, but I think the way he writes is very similar, and it kind of just pulls you in. He just seems to be talking, and it seems to be making sense, and he seems to be being biblical, and he seems to care. And so all of that, I think, people just assume, well, this is somebody who cares. And here he is, he's gone to scripture and he's laid this out for us. I did wanna read another quote, which is the quote that got me first looking into him. This is not in the book again. So that's why it's a good reason maybe to mention it because it's not in the book, but it is a concerning quote. And- Go ahead. This is from one of his books, though. This is a book on the Ruthless Elimination of Hurry, which was a very popular book before he wrote Practicing the Way. And the term, the Ruthless Elimination of Hurry, comes from advice that was given by Dallas Willard to his disciple, John Ortberg, This is what Ortberg says Woolard said to him, ruthlessly eliminate hurry from your life. And that's something I've seen Comer refer to in some videos as well. And he does, he does mention that elimination of hurry. He mentions how we have to ruthlessly eliminate hurry in this book. He does mention that, but this particular quote I'm going to read is not in the book. So Comer got that from Ortberg, who got it from Dallas Willard. Comer also quotes John Ortberg in this book. So here's the quote that I read that caused me to start investigating Comer after I was asked about him. All the spiritual masters from inside and outside the Jesus tradition agree on this one. as do secular psychologists, mindfulness experts, et cetera. If there's a secret to happiness, it's simple, presence to the moment. The more present we are to the now, the more joy we tap into. So there you go. There's a quote I wanted to give that's not in this book and what, there's several things about it that trouble me, but what really raised a red flag to me was all the spiritual masters from inside and outside the Jesus tradition. Because I thought, what does he mean by a spiritual master outside the Jesus tradition? I'm like, I would, you know, this is like saying these spiritual masters that aren't Christian are giving this advice and You know, and it's good advice and it's inside the Jesus tradition. It's outside the Jesus tradition. That really bothered me. Like, why are we listening to so-called spiritual masters outside the Jesus tradition? I would not call them spiritual masters. I would call them a spiritual teacher. You know, if there was a spiritual teacher who was a Hindu, you know, I would say that's a Hindu teacher or he's a spiritual teacher who is Hindu. I would not say he's a spiritual master. because I would not recognize him as a spiritual master. So that really bothered me. And then he talks about secular psychologists and mindfulness experts. And the secret to happiness is presence to the moment. Well, that's completely false. I know what presence to the moment means. It comes from mindfulness, which comes from Zen Buddhism. And since I was reading and practicing mindfulness, reading about Zen Buddhism and practicing mindfulness for 12 years, I'm very familiar with it. And it's not about being happy for one thing. Being present to the moment is done to cultivate detachment so that eventually you recognize your thoughts are not your thoughts. Yourself is not yourself and yourself does not exist. You're supposed to recognize yourself doesn't exist. And then you realize that everything is a construct and there's no reason to cling to this reality And that way you can avoid rebirth. The whole idea in Buddhism is that life is suffering, endless suffering, and the only solution is to escape rebirth. That's how you escape suffering. And the way to escape rebirth is to cultivate detachment and focusing on the moment is one of the steps you do in the meditation because it's supposed to erase everything else. They actually don't say to empty your mind, although they talk about being empty, which is kind of something else. But they say, just be in the moment. You notice things going on in the moment. But by doing that and doing other pieces of advice they give you, you do detach yourself from reality. You detach yourself from the past. You detach yourself from your own mind. I did this, so I know what it's like. actually messes with your mind. It messes with your view of reality. It changes your view of reality. So it's actually very dangerous. That's why I have four articles on mindfulness and why I've done shows, you know, warning about it. And I'm asked about it. I'm still asked about it a lot because it's so popular and it's been secularized and it's in the culture. but now some people, Christians, think it's okay to practice it. So I have to discuss it to explain why this is actually, it's a mind conditioning technique, is what it is. It's a mind conditioning technique, and it is not something you wanna do. But here he is promoting it, talking about spiritual masters outside the Jesus tradition, and saying, this is how you find happiness, and I'm thinking, Why are you even talking about finding happiness? I mean, I thought that knowing Christ is, Christ is the answer to everything. So Jesus Christ is the answer to, you know, it's how we're going to have, it's how we have eternal life with the Father. Jesus Christ is completely sufficient for, you know, what we need as human beings. That's what gives us eternal life. We get renewed by the Holy Spirit. We are on the path of sanctification, we're being conformed to the image of Christ. This is where we're supposed to go as Christians. This is what we have in view. This is our goal. And the character of Christ is our model. What's this thing about the secret to happiness? This sounds like a motivational book. So that's from his book about the ruthless elimination of hurry. And I thought I should put that in there because that's a very, very problematic quote. Also shows he succumbed to the mindfulness propaganda. And then I talk on and the rest, the last part of my article here, I had been looking at my articles as I talked so I could remember things. Cause there was just so much in this book. I couldn't even write about it all, of course. I mean, there are other things in the book that are problematic. I just couldn't get into for the sake of space. and having the article not go on too long. And then I quote, I quote, I mentioned a lot of people he quotes, and I talk about a few of them. Oh, there is one I have to mention, Dave, I have to talk about this guy, because I've already talked about how he's used Richard Ward's redefinition of sin. One of the people that he quotes in a very positive way in this book, but he's also referred to him before elsewhere, is David G. Benner. Now, David G. Benner wrote several books, one of which is The Gift of Being Yourself. And The Gift of Being Yourself is one of the more popular books. It's published by IVP, and it's part of a trilogy of three books. And one's about Surrender to Love, I think is the name of it. And another one is, it's about your, will. I can't remember what it is or God's will. But the gift of being yourself is the most popular. I've read it. I have an article on it on my website because I had to start investigating Benner, which that came about in a very strange way that I think was God got me interested in Benner. I think that's how it happened. He just did it in this very roundabout way. And I uncovered this incredible thing about David Benner is that he is an adherent of perennial wisdom, like Richard Rohr, which means he's not a Christian. I can say that with full confidence because, yes, Richard Rohr is heretical, and just looking at his heresies, you know he's not a Christian. David G. Benner is much more subtle in his language It's very hard to tell. I think when people read his book, they just interpret some of his phrases, which sound a little strange. I think they just think, oh, he means that. You know, he talks about the Christ in you, the Christ in you. And so I think people think, oh, that just means, you know, I have Christ, you know, I have the Holy Spirit because I've trusted Christ. And they just go on, but that's not what he's talking about. David G. Benner, as a follower of perennial wisdom, believes that we've always been part of God. We come from God. He believes God is in creation. He calls God in creation living wisdom. And this is a perennial view of God, that God is living wisdom in creation. God is sort of a principle more than a person. in perennial philosophy. And so God is living wisdom. He's in everything around us. He's in us as well. We've never been separated from him. Sin is not really a problem. And it's all about recognizing through mystical practices, you come to realize this truth, this perennial truth that you've always been in God and God's always been in you. And Christ is more of an archetype. And he actually says Christ is an archetype in the book. He talks about Christ as this kind of archetype to follow. Christ is a model for realizing this perennial wisdom. Now, his other book that David G. Benner wrote that I don't think any Christians maybe have read, and they don't know about it. And when I came across it, I decided to read it. It's called Living Wisdom. And that book is so overtly perennial I mean, there's no way to deny it. It's just full of perennial wisdom, including a lot of new age stuff in there, like about the chakras, the supposed seven centers in the body, which come from Hinduism and are used in yoga, being portals. He talks about them being portals to this spiritual energy. It's very bizarre. Living Wisdom is a book that any Christian who knows any of the Bible would read just a part of that would recognize that the author is not Christian. But I don't think Christians know about that book. So they still think David G. Benner is a Christian, but he's not. Well, John Mark Homer likes David G. Benner and quotes him. And as I said, not just here, but elsewhere. So there's another big problem, not just with some of the mystics that he quotes, and they're problematic enough, but Benner is not even a Christian. And he's teaching a philosophy that is incompatible with Christianity, because the death of Christ on the cross is completely unnecessary in the view of perennial philosophy. So, you know, and Jesus is a completely different Jesus, and God's a completely different God in perennial wisdom. They aren't even recognizable as anything similar to what we see in scripture. It's just so out there and so anti-Christian. I just say it seems like Christian. It's anti-Christian, and it makes me think of that verse in 1 John. I can't remember what chapter it is, but it's that many antichrists are now out in the world. And he's talking about teachers who are teaching against the gospel, who are teaching against Christ. And Richard Warren, David G. Benner are two examples, because they're viewed as Christians, and yet they're teaching an anti-Christian gospel. So that was problematic. There's one more thing, if I could say this. We have time? Go ahead. Go ahead. Okay. This is about the trellis. He talks about Jesus speaking of being the vine, and that's in John 15. and his followers are branches. And so he said that early teachers of the way, but he doesn't name who these teachers are, used a word picture of a trellis to take Jesus's metaphor of the vine to its logical conclusion. The trellis lifted the vine up so that it could grow in the right direction and bear fruits. So Comer says, In the same way, for an apprentice of Jesus to abide in the vine and bear much fruit, we also need a trellis, a support structure to make space for life with God. So this was very confusing to me because if Jesus is the vine and we're branches of the vine and we're abiding in Jesus, why do we need a trellis? I mean, is Jesus not enough? you know, Jesus certainly doesn't need the trellis. The trellis is supposed to be for the vine. So why does Jesus need a trellis? And if we're in the vine and abiding in Jesus as the vine, why do we need a trellis? That's like saying trellis doesn't, you know, Jesus doesn't give enough support or Jesus needs some support from the trellis. I thought that was just a very, very odd thing to say. And I don't know what in the world I don't know what he was thinking when he wrote it, but he wanted to sell, he's making a selling point here, for what he calls the rule of life. Because he says the trellis is the rule of life. And Comer says that Paul was referring to this in 1 Corinthians 4.17. And this is the rule of life that actually Benedict came up, Benedict set up the first monastery, from what I understand, And he started talking about the rule of life, which was the way for the monks to live day by day. And so, Comer is pushing this. Of course, let's remember that Comer has a Jesuit spiritual director. So, not too surprising that he's using a monastic rule of life from Benedict as what he calls the trellis, that we need a support structure. Peter Scizzera also recommends the rule of life in his book, And I talk about that in my article on Schizero's book. So there you go with Jesus is not sufficient. God's word is not sufficient. Apparently Jesus as the vine isn't sufficient because we need a trellis. All of this stuff that he's throwing in here is saying that what we have in God's word and God's revelation and what we have in Christ is not sufficient because we need all of this. We need all of these things, these practices. We need this trellis. We need to go beyond words so that we have this Gnostic intimacy with God through these experiences we can have. And there's more, there's even more of it. I won't keep going on if you think we've made enough points here, but I have more quotes, more problems, more issues with this book. That is really just kind of a taste of some of them, plus some of the things he said that are outside the book that I thought were important enough to bring up. Those two, especially the redefinition of sin and then the part about the spiritual masters and being present in the present moment were outside the book, but very much a part of his teaching. So that and some of the quotes I read from the book He's very also, he's a big fan of Ruth Haley Barton. So I do want to mention, I have a two-part article on two books by Ruth Haley Barton, who is a very big influence on the church. She's a contemplative teacher. She has pastors come and she teaches pastors and other church leaders and takes them on retreats. And she's teaching them same kind of thinking that John Mark Comer is teaching. So, you know, She's just one of the many problematic teachers he quotes as well. No, that's really, really helpful, because I think that a lot of people just don't know. We were saying this over email, with a lot of these things, people just don't know what the people are teaching, and they're just really popular. you know again again again the heart behind this I'll just say is isn't to attack there's nothing in about this this is personally attacking John Mark Comer or his followers but we are personally interested in seeing John Mark Comer repent and so if you're following John Mark Comer you should absolutely not because The idea of biblical discipleship is appealing to everybody today because everybody wants to be, especially millennials and Gen Xers, they want to be authentic, they want to be real. And what biblical discipleship offers is actually a real life rooted and grounded in God. And so who wouldn't want that from the only one, like you said, who's sufficient and we learned that in the sufficient word. So we have to be clear that biblical discipleship is the opposite of this thing. In Christianity, what Jesus offers is an entirely new way of life, and it's not just a life, it's the only life. He's the way, the truth, and the life, he says, John 14 6. And so this life begins with him when we're converted from our sins, you know, when we're transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of the Lord Jesus. And so, and it continues on where we're learning at the feet of Jesus from his word and from other teachers who are sound in their theology. And as you've more than sufficiently shown, John Mark Comer should be marked and voided 100%. for his view on sin, for his view of Jesus' death, for his support of the Enneagram, to his support of contemplative practices. It's just safe enough to say here, to summarize this, This is not the discipleship resources that John Mark Comer is advancing. They're not biblical. And if they're not biblical, then they're not going to help you become a disciple. And so that's why we should avoid him, and we should instead support teachers that are going to help us to actually grow in in the Bible and and in good theology and you know again it's just uh you know a good teacher is going to equip you to handle the word. John Mark Comer is not going to do that because he doesn't believe he doesn't believe the word that he's teaching and he's teaching contrary to the word. So um you know it's just we have to we have to begin to think about this when when you're hearing somebody talk Is what they're saying, does it actually accord with the Bible? Or does it not? Is that teacher helping me to learn to handle the Bible better? and then to grow in my understanding of God's character, His ways, and all of that. Or is He taking me away from the Bible because He's denying core doctrines that the Bible teaches like sin and the personal work of Jesus and the biblical view of how to pray and meditate and like everything you mentioned. And we have to start thinking about and asking ourselves those questions because in 1 Thessalonians 5 21, it's in the context of commands, directives. It's like when a soldier goes past a superior officer, they have to go, yes sir. And this is God's, these are his commands to us, his directives, his commanding words to us in this context of 1 Thessalonians 5. the word for test all things it means examine or analyze and so all we're doing here is analyzing somebody's words that came out let Jesus says out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks so all we're doing is examining and analyzing his words and shining it up to the light of God's Word that is a light unto our feet and you know It lights our way. Sorry, that's a paraphrase, but it's from the Psalms. A light into my feet, a lamp into my path. There, there, I got it right. There you go, I got it right. I had to think about it for a minute. People don't realize that when you're on these things, I don't have any notes, so I'm going just off whatever comes to my mind. Hopefully it's helpful, but we can laugh about that. But the point is, is that's the opposite of what John Mark Colmer says. So don't be, my point is, simply put, don't be seduced by John Mark Colmer and don't support him, don't give your money to him, don't give him your follow on Instagram, on Facebook, if he's on X, don't follow him on X. Unsubscribe to his YouTube. If you're following him on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please unsubscribe. and share this episode, share the concerns, and like Marsha said, she has more, there's more things to say, and undoubtedly in the days ahead, she'll be sharing those and I'll be talking about those as well, maybe together, maybe separately, who knows, we'll see. But the point is, is we probably should wrap up this episode, but before I ask you the last two questions, do you have anything to add to that? I just want to say, I want to warn about this because I do know he's influencing a lot of young people. He has a lot of the millennials and Gen Z. And my heart goes out to them. I have a real special burden for young people and always have had in my ministry. And I know they love Christ. They want to do the right thing. I want them to be fed by scripture and by teachers who are leaning on scripture and drawing from scripture because that is the source of life for us. That is, you know, the words of life are in scripture and we have Jesus Christ and we know him by through scripture. And this is how we grow. We have to, we have to do it the way God gave us and God cares about us. And that's why he gave us the Bible. It's because he loves us. And so, We don't want to follow teachings that are not drawing from scripture or actually misusing scripture or using things outside scripture because it's not going to benefit you spiritually and it's not going to edify you. So I am speaking out of concern, especially for the younger people who have been drawn to John Mark Comer. And I'm not trying to make anyone feel guilty. If they like Comer and they've been listening to him, I'm not saying you should feel guilty and I'm not saying you should feel bad. I'm just saying, please re-examine, please re-examine, check my article out, check things out for yourself against scripture. And that's my plea to people who are listening to Comer that I want to say from here. That's really good. Well, where can people go to find out more about you and your ministry, Marsha, and follow you on social media as well? Okay, all right, yes, thank you. I do have my website, christiananswersnewage.com. I have a lot of, I don't have my own channel, but I've been on a lot of programs that are on YouTube and elsewhere. I am on Facebook, and I have a ministry page on Facebook Christian Answers for the New Age. So it's very easy to find, because it's the only page with that name on Facebook. I'm not on any other social media. I seem to have plenty to do just with Facebook and other things. So in that way, I'm not like the younger generation. I'm not all over social media, but they can find me. So I hope that they do check me out. And if they're on Facebook, check out that page. And I'm happy to answer questions. You can contact me on Facebook or through my website. I'm more than happy to answer questions or talk to you. Do you have any last thoughts, sister, as we wrap up today's episode? No, my last thoughts are that this makes me appreciate Jesus more and appreciate the Bible more. Just as we were talking, I'm so grateful for scripture. Scripture is sufficient. And we glean everything we need from scripture as Christians. It's all there. And we don't need the extra, not that we can't get information or helpful material outside of scripture. I'm not saying that. I'm very big on studying and using commentaries and encyclopedias, et cetera. But what we need really to grow as a Christian is in scripture. And so it's made me appreciate that even more when I do programs like this. Glory to God sister. Thank you so much for your hard work that you've done on and researching this. I know that it's hard and To wade through it and then you got to think about it. So, you know, you're doing this on a lot of different topics so Guys, I just wanna encourage, gals too, I wanna encourage you to check out what Marsha's doing on her website as well as on her Facebook and she will answer your questions. So get ready for that. And it'll be a thorough answer too. It's not just like a couple of sentences. She will give you more than you can handle and food for thought. So that's a good thing though, cause we need it. So thank you so much for joining us sister. We look forward to having you back too. Well, thank you. Thank you, Dave. Thanks again.