The following program is recorded content created by The Truth Network. It's Matt Slick Live! Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at karm.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live! For answers, taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Hi everybody, welcome to the show. It is me, Matt Slick, and you're listening to Matt Slick Live. Alright, so if you want to give me a call as usual, all you have to do is dial 877-207-2276. I want to hear from you. Give me a call. You can also email me. That's easy. Just send an email to info at carm.org info at C-A-R-M dot O-R-G and We can get to your stuff here. I'm actually thinking about something. I'm actually thinking about moving my microphone. You know, my brain just takes off in different directions, and it messes me up. Well, that's the way it goes. Maybe none of you ever do that, but I certainly do that. All right. We've got Patrick on. We've got Jermaine coming on. And I want to talk about something in a bit. Should pastors preach politics from the pulpit? I'm going to talk about that a little bit. I did a little bit before. Last week, we'll do it again. Let's get to Patrick from North Carolina. Patrick, welcome. You're on the air. Hello, Matt. It's me again. But my question is, yesterday I'd mentioned that in John 6, 37, I thought that he was speaking about the apostles, but you said that, I think it's in John 6, 40, he says, for all those who believe will have eternal life, So can that work with the Calvinistic belief that they have to be elected first? Yes. Well, what is election then? Election is God's act before the foundation of the world of choosing people who are to be in Christ and to receive salvation. So you're saying that anybody born has either been elected or not, so they don't have to believe. No, that's not correct. It's correct that election is there, but you must believe that God grants that we have that faith, Philippians 1.29. He works the faith in us, John 6.29. And when we have that faith, we're justified before God, Romans 5.1, okay? But is belief a work? Yeah, it's a work of God. This is the work of God that you believe on whom He has sent, Jesus says in John 6.29, okay? Yeah, but when he says for all those who believe, he's saying that if you believe, that's why Bob can be elected and Jack cannot, because Jack did not believe. That's not correct, and I'll show you why out of Scripture. I did this last night in a room. I was battling an anti-Calvinist in a chat room, and it was interesting because I kept saying, let's go to Scripture, let's go to Scripture, and he didn't want to do it. What he wanted to do was just attack the idea of Reformed theology. He just wanted to denounce it. And he didn't like the idea of God's sovereignty over man's sovereignty. And so I said, let's go for Romans 9. And he didn't want to do it. He had to go, and that's fine. And then I went over to Romans 9 anyway. And a lot of the complaining people were silenced by Romans 9. And others do the same thing with you. Because you may complain. You don't like the idea of God not electing people based on what he sees they're going to do. That's humanistic philosophy, and it's pagan. God does not choose people for salvation, elect them for salvation, that's what the Bible teaches in Ephesians 1, 4, and 5. He does not do that based upon any foreseen goodness in you. That is favoritism. That's showing favoritism which is rejected in James 2, 2-4. And so what the Bible actually says is this, in Romans 9, 9 through 13, it says, and this is the word of promise, at this time I shall come and Sarah shall have a son. And not only this, but there was Rebecca also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac, for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose, according to his choice, would stand, not because of works, but because of him who calls. It was said to her, the older will serve the younger, just as it is written, Jacob, I loved and Esau, I hated. So that's what it says. So it's the God's choosing of who he loves and hates for whatever reason and calls because of him who calls. Okay, that's what it says in Romans 9, 11. It's not based on any foreseen ability or quality in you. And it's right there. Romans 9, 9 through 13 says so. So are you, let me ask a question for you, Patrick. I got a question. Are you going to repent and submit to the word of God? I'm going to ask you the same question, but my point is in Romans 9, he says, one I love, the other I hated. He was referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit versus the baptism of fire. When he gives you a baptism of the Holy Spirit, you're saved, but if he baptizes you with fire, you're not saved. Patrick, lovingly, you couldn't argue your way out of a wet paper bag if it was on a NASA centrifuge and the open end was out and it was going around one cycle per second. That's not being Christian-like. Yes it is. Jesus says you whitewash sepulchers. You're your father the devil. You're a hypocrite. You're a dead man. You could be that whitewasher. So you are doing that, and I'm just telling you, you don't know how to argue. You don't know logic. You don't know the basics of scripture. You don't. And you're going to celebrate 30 years of speech and heresy. Because you write your own truth and then call it karma. That's a false thing to do. Well, you're bearing false witness now. And so does it or does it not say... Patrick, let me do this. Let me work with you on something. Let's go to Jesus. This is the verse that they couldn't answer last night. Let's see how you do. Let's see if you do any better with the words of Jesus himself. This is about election. This is the topic that came up. Jesus says, for this reason I say to you that no one can come to me unless it has been granted him from the Father. That's John 6.65. Nobody can come to Christ unless God the Father grants that they come to Christ. Now, do you believe that? Okay, what happened there, as you've got to understand, is Jesus just chose the twelve apostles, and the other people were mad because they were not chosen, and they were grumbling. And Jesus told Peter in John 6. No, that's not what it is. That's not what it is. Did I not choose you, the twelve? That's not what it is. Why are you, are you going to go back? No, look, John 6.63, he said, Spirit gives life, flesh profits nothing. The words that I've spoken to you are spirit and The baptism of the Holy Spirit... Patrick, wait a minute. Patrick, wait. Verse 64, but there are some of you who do not believe, for Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was who betrayed them. And he was saying, for this reason I've said to you, that you cannot come to me unless it had been granted from the Father. He's talking about those who are believers and not believers in the context. Right, but you have to believe. Theologically we say, booyah. Yeah, but you have to believe. It ain't that Jesus makes us believe. We personally have a choice. That's why they call it... He grants that you have faith. Right. He grants somebody... No, you don't understand the word grant. He grants us if we believe. You can't get a diploma unless you've been given one first. It doesn't say that. Okay. No, but you don't understand. You're the one that should be... Patrick, you don't know. It says you have been granted from the Greek word charizomai. All right. And it's the aorist passive indicative. Do you have any idea what that means? Aorist passive indicative. You have any idea? I don't. That's beside the point. Okay, you don't know. The point is, all the father gives me will come to me. He was speaking of the apostles. Let me explain. Let me explain. Aorist passive indicative. Aorist means past tense. Passive voice means you receive the action. Indicative means it's a statement of fact. Aorist passive indicative. So what the Bible, what Jesus, or what Paul is saying, it has been granted that you believe. God does the granting to you that you have faith in Christ. That's what the Bible says, Philippians 129. Now you can deny it to your own destruction like you have with so many other things. Patrick, I've spoken to you so many times. You deny God's word. You deny God's words. You don't even believe God's words. Mark 3, 13, Jesus was on a mountainside. He chose the ones He wanted. So we're done. Folks, I've had, I don't know, maybe close to 100 conversations with him in this venue and in other venues online. And it's always the same thing. It's always the same thing. I will show him a verse, and he just disregards the verse. And then he just goes into his heresies. He denies the Trinity, denies Jesus Christ as God in flesh, says baptism is crying, things like this. So as I like to say, he couldn't argue his way out of a wet paper bag if the bag was on a NASA centrifuge. that was operating at one spin per second, which is a lot of g-force pushing outward. There was a chain on his ankle with a weight, which is out there with intrepid force, and the bag is greased, and there's a neon light saying this way. Okay, how about that? Let's get to Jermaine from California. Jermaine, welcome, buddy. You're on the air. Hey, Matt. Today's exchange will lead me to my question tomorrow morning. Yeah, I wanted to ask you about the behavior of people as far as demon behavior. I brought this up before, but in another... I asked the question in another way, but there was something I wanted to know. The people who, like, for instance, Matthew chapter 12, verse 43-45 talks about the unclean spirit, the return of the unclean spirit. And I was just kind of curious, is it the behavior and practices of the person that allows that kind of return? Because when I hear seven demons worse than the original return, it doesn't necessarily allude to it, but, or excuse me, it doesn't give explicit detail, but it seems to allude to there's a reason those spirits were able to return to someone. And just looking at the behavior we've witnessed in the last week or so since the Charlie Kirk murder, It just really leads me to believe that a lot of people are into some very demonic stuff to allow an opening like that. But I just kind of want to hear you develop some thoughts on it. There we go. Yeah, it's true. So So let me ask you, what exactly are you trying to get? Can you get into the issue of behaviors of demoniac-influenced people and or, because I've seen all this relationship stuff, all this manifestation of these evil people who rejoice in murder, which is obviously the case, you know, lately. Okay, yeah, maybe I can clarify a little bit. So I've had, I've known people, I've even had past family members who basically practice mysticism, spiritualism, and anti-christian things, and they all had what I would consider manifestations in their home. Yeah. Like every single one of them. I was the only one who did not. Really? I did not do such practices. Yes. Give me some examples. Examples of the practices or examples of the manifestations? Manifestations. Okay. Well, what I was told is they experienced what was sounded like hauntings. They, you know, disturbances in their sleep. Just, uh, I noticed their homes all had very, you can just feel spiritually like there's a darkness there when you walk in. Uh, and then, you know, just subsequent watching over the subsequent years becoming okay with, uh, you know, consulting psychics, lighting candles, incense, you know, for the wrong purposes and having the same reports of, of seeing quote, you know, past relatives to, uh, I even had a younger brother tell who I thought was not a believer in anything. Tell me he noticed a phenomenon of things falling off the wall a couple of times and he attributed it to that. But I know every single person that I'm speaking of, has at least at one time participated in things that they know they should not have. Wow. Hey, hold on, buddy. We got a break right there. We'll get back and talk some more. Sure. All right. Hey, folks, if you want, you can continue listening or not. And if you want to call, the number is 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick Live! Taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Hey everybody, welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, the number is 877-207-2276. Jermaine, you still there? Oh, yes I am. All right. So yeah, you're saying that you were talking about manifestations. I'm reminded of when I was living in Southern California. My brother, my youngest brother, had a friend. And I was literally packing that data to go to a seminary in San Diego. you know, an hour and a half south. And he and I just happened to be sitting in my car, we went to get something, my brother's friend and I, and that's when I found out that his house was one of the most demonically active, spirit active houses in America. And that many people have been out to study stuff at his house. And I said, how come you never told me this? He said, I always thought you knew. And I'd never known. And he would say that they would just watch things move. watching TV and something would just move and they would just look at it and keep watching TV because it was so frequent in their house. They stopped being worried about stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I've got other stories I can get into, but, uh, yeah, you know, it just stuff like that happens. Right. And, and, you know, when we get another time I'll share, because unfortunately I did grow up seeing people and some of them, were professed to be Christians, but, you know, when they went home, they practiced these things, including, like I said, seances by candle, trying to channel voices, past relatives and things that would scare me as a child. But I noticed I was like, hey, wait a minute. How come I'm the only one not having the same experiences you people are? And again, the main purpose of the call, that verse kind of made me think like, well, how did seven demons worse than the original have rights to come over and I don't even like to necessarily talk like that because I know a lot of people have created a spiritual world and rules that we have no verification of but I do know that I've never seen a true believer in Christ be quote demon possessed. I've seen people harassed and seen spiritual attacks but I've never I've never seen and not perfect none of us are but I've never seen someone who's a legit believer possessed, but I have seen people who thought they were believers and they were doing things that they shouldn't have been done. I've seen all kinds of chaos going on around them that would lead me to kind of think, hey, there's a reason that these things happen to certain people. It's specifically concerning that verse and the behavior that I saw from folks who some who even claim to be Christian after the Charlie Kirk murder. I'm like, you know, how can you even think to have any joy out of a murder. It doesn't matter what you think of someone's politics or the person but that lets me know there's a darkness and a wickedness that that's beyond demonic in some cases because sometimes I think people blame the demons for way too much for behavior that they're accountable for and yeah that's that's why I was calling it to kind of see is there Are there times where people are actually just behaving worse than what we know demons should be behaving? Yes. In fact, I'm categorizing stuff on demonic behaviors. I'm able to write an article on it. But there's physical manifestations, violent supernatural strength, unable to speak, seizures, convulsions. They have clairvoyant abilities sometimes, recognition of Jesus' authority, a lot of destructive behavior, isolation, self-harm, destructive thoughts. and there's uncontrollable outbursts a lot of times. I was watching something else that reminded me of a demonic possessed woman. This guy was in the video and just saw this woman growling and moving and just swaying. And he says, not going over there. But not the Charlie Kirk haters. I didn't see any film of anything like that. But what I have seen As the Bible talks about in the end times, an increase of the love for things that are ungodly, and spiritism, and a lack of goodness. This is definitely on the rise. So the thing about this is that the more that occurs, the more the doors to the occult are opened. which then can generate more and more. The only solution is the work of Jesus Christ and people coming to faith in Christ, closing those doors and rejecting them. So, yeah, there's a lot there. It's an intertwined issue, that's for sure. Okay, well I think that's actually a pretty solid answer and, you know, again, I always want to state I'm never ever trying to make myself better or you better, just I'm a believer just like you. I know some behaviors, I mean, they have to be called out for what they are. They're just extremely wicked and demonic. And I really did, you know, I pity people who I enjoyed the murder and I pity people who even think things like that are okay in any sense, because I see the necessity for the work that yourself and so many other true Bible teachers are doing, there's a purpose to it. And spiritual warfare, this is our training, these are our weapons, and if we don't use them, then there's no way in the world we can stand before God, stand before a holy God with these kinds of thoughts and attitudes, unrepentant, there's just no way. Yeah, it's just, it's amazing how many people seem to be so so satisfied and enjoying the death, the murder of somebody. And, yeah. Right. And I, you know, I think honestly at heart, can't speak for every single one, but I know there's some of them, that's exactly what they love to see happen to one of us. Or just simply speaking the truth of Jesus Christ, the exclusivity, you know, the reality that, you know, without them, without the day mediator, you're done. You have no other hope. And I really think that message is something that just kind of irritates folks who are either demon possessed or demon influenced. No one wants to hear that. And truth hurts sometimes. So I believe that what we saw is exactly what a lot of people kind of wanted to see, regardless of their theories of why. I will say also it showed me a tremendous mercy of God because I also saw reactions from people who are quote on the left. I know there's a lot of decent people who may see things just a little bit differently, but the young man who was asking the question, he actually was horrified when it happened right in front of him. And he did not agree with Kirk at all, but To me, that let me know, hey, there's some humanity there. There's hope. And this person was just disgusted by what he saw. And that's the proper reaction. Right. I agree. I agree. And we should all be appalled. You know, there's people on the left that I just despise. And I wouldn't want to see them injured. I wouldn't want to see anything bad happen to them. For one reason, if they're not saved, they enter into eternal damnation. I don't want that for them. So, you know, I want people to be saved. But at least, you know, on your right, there are people that are good, so to speak, you know, relatively speaking, good people on all sides and bad people on all sides. But at the ball tie, the bad people sure seem to be on the left a lot. Man. Yep. All right. Okay. All right. Well, thanks again, Matt. Enjoyed the conversation. God bless you. We had a hundred praying for you last night. We'll keep it up. Well, we certainly need it. Boy, do we need it lately, a lot, in the car ministry. Okay? Appreciate it, buddy. God bless. Okay. Hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages. We'll talk to John from Salt Lake City on predestination. Be right back. It's Matt Slick Live! Taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. CARM.org, C-A-R-M dot O-R-G forward slash donate. Everything you need is right there, and we do need your support to stay on the air, so please consider doing that. And we want to be able to continue to hopefully give good answers. Hopefully, a lot of people may not agree with some of the stuff I say, but if you do agree and you want to see me or hear me continue, please consider supporting us. I mean, just go to CARM.org, Let's get to John from Salt Lake City. John, welcome, you're on the air. How you doing? Doing all right, by God's grace. Hang on in there, man. What do you got? So I know that you are a supporter of absolute predestination, which is something that I think is kind of an insidious Theology is a product of the Reformation, because the first church father to ever mention anything about predestination was Augustine, but prior to that, in his contemporaries, it was never mentioned. And I also think there are Bible passages... Wait a second. What is absolute predestination? That God chooses from the beginning of everything who's going to be saved, and who's not going to be saved. What's wrong with that? It's God's choice, 100%. Now, I believe it's God's choice, 99%. I believe in the passages in Scripture, behold, I stand at the door and knock, whosoever opens the door. Gospel of John, whosoever receives him. You're talking about Revelation 3.20, and that is to the church of Laodicea, and there are already believers there, and so he's talking about there in a fellowship that's going on there. That's what's going on, so you shouldn't take it out of context. Now, go to the next verse. Whosoever receives him, the gospel of John... Which verse is that? It might be 1 John 1.9, but I'm not positive. Well, in John 1.12, as many as received him, to them he gave the right to be called the children of God. That one? To whosoever received him, yeah. So there's the idea of receiving. Well, you know, I think there there are let me respond. Let me respond So that's John 1 12 and then 13 as many as received him and we predestinarians teach that we do receive Christ and It says to them he gave the right to be the children of God even to those who believe in his right So that's an act of the will you let me finish the God's Word, please. I I notice this a lot with people on the radio and in other venues. I'm going to show them something out of Scripture. They apparently don't want to hear God's Word. They continually interrupt through the preaching and the teaching of God's Word so they can teach a different doctrine. So what are you going to do? Are you going to listen to God's Word? Are you going to listen to God's Word? But you ought to read it to you. I'm trying to read it to you because I'm trying to. It says, for as many as received him to them, he gave the right to be called the children of God, to those who believe in his name, who were born context of being born again, not of the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God right there. Yeah. Not, not the will of man, but of God. Right. Exactly. So whoever receives Him, which is an act of the will, choose this day whom you shall serve. To whom do you yield yourself? You're ripping verses out of context. Choose this day whom you serve is from Moses and, or Joshua, I forgot, talking to the covenant people of Israel and making a decision about which side you're going to go with. It's the covenant people. Exactly. But look, I don't think you understand what predestination is. I assume you're Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, right? Because you went to the Church Fathers before God's Word. Am I right? Well, I don't know that I put the Church Fathers before God's Word. God's Word comes first. The Church Fathers were interpreters of God's Word. Okay, so which church do you go to? I'm Eastern Orthodox. That's what I thought. All right, look, this is what predestination is. God's actions in willing something to a specific result. Okay. Now, do you know that God teaches predestination in the Bible? I've seen it many times. There are places. I'm familiar with Romans. Okay. Ephesians one, four and five. Okay. He chose us. That's God's choosing in him. That's Christ before the foundation of the world that we behold him blindless in love. He predestined us to adoption. So who did the choosing and the predestining? You are God. God chose to offer salvation. I understand 100%. Where does it say that he offers salvation? Where does he chose to offer salvation? Why do you keep changing God's word? You EO people do this all the time. I'm just repeating what you said from Ephesians. No, look, you did not repeat what I said from Ephesians. You changed the word of God. You, Eastern Orthodox, do this a great deal. The Catholics do it a great deal. I'll quote a verse, and when they repeat it back to me, they alter the verse. Oh, OK. You do? You do that. Look, it says, he predestined us to adoption as sons to Jesus Christ himself. So who does the predestining? God. God does. Good. So then you believe in predestination, right? No, I don't. Well, do you believe that God predestined us? Not in the way that you believe. I haven't interpreted it. I'm just reading it. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to himself. Do you believe that God predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ? Yes. Well then, what's the problem? He predestined his plan of salvation. It's not what it says. Why do you change God's word? Yeah. I mean, I, you think I'm changing God's word. I understand what you're saying. Um, but again, as I mentioned, I'm not aware and I'm fairly, uh, I have a fairly strong understanding of the church fathers and I'm not aware of any church father other the first one being Augustine, um, to, to mention the whole idea of predestination. Well, let me get, first of all, I'm going to do some research here right now on my website, which you should go to and do some research on the idea of a predestination. And I have a lot of stuff on the church fathers, all right? And so God's predestination is definitely mentioned. Athanasius said it. I can give you a reference. Clement of Rome. I'd like to see it, yeah. Yeah, OK. Athanasius, chapter 22. and you can go to my website and you can see the link it's right there at ccel.org and what you do is you go to my website and look up on the left hand column look up early church fathers you'll see it and then quotes by topic you go down to predestination Athanasius said how then has he chosen us before we came into existence But that, as he himself says, in him we were presented beforehand. And how at all, before men were created, did he predestine us to adoption, but that the Son himself was founded before the world, taking on him that economy which was for our sake. It's as amazing. I go to Clement of Rome. It says Clement of Rome says the number of souls which were predestined to fill it should be completed. Tertullian says we have been predestined by God before the world was to arise in the extreme of the end times. And then Gottschalk of Orbeis believe and confess in omnipotence and unchangeable God foreknew and predestined saints angels and elect men to eternal life. Here's the thing about the EO and the RC, the Eastern Orthodox Roman Catholics. You guys quoted the Church Fathers, but apparently you don't know the Church Fathers. You only seem to find the Church Fathers somehow that just agree with you, and you ignore everybody else, and you say the unanimous consensus of the Church Fathers. It's just simply not true. I never said the unanimous consensus. You're distorting what I said. I never said the unanimous consensus. The context of what I said was you guys. This is what you EO and the RC do repeatedly. And I've had to correct them countless times. And you didn't say the unanimous consensus, but you did say that predestination wasn't mentioned until Augustine. Well, I'm just showing you that's not true. Apparently, just to be polite here, you've not done your homework. Well, I understand what the church teaches today, and that's based on the history of the church, and I understand that the word that we use is the word synergy. Yes, I understand. 99% of salvation is the action of God, but we have to open our hearts to that salvation. Oh, okay. Well, I would think that what you might want to do is just talk to God about, um, your ability to choose him and that you were wise enough where others weren't. I mean, just a little bit of you in there, because you have to be in there. But you see, Jesus says in John 6, 65. Look, if you want to hold on, we can just keep talking, John. But I'm concerned for your son. I've got to go. OK, thank you for your time. All right. Yeah, folks, I know Eastern Orthodoxy, I'm growing and I'm reading a book right now from Eastern Orthodoxy on the Eucharist. And oh, my goodness, some of the stuff it's saying. It'll be right back. Talk to Oscar from New York after the break, please. Stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, I mean, welcome back to the show. Eastern Orthodoxy, you know, it's depressing because They don't want to believe the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, and they're getting more and more people to join their false churches. Yes, they are false churches. And I will die on that hill, and I'd be glad to have public formal debates on it with these Orthodox representatives. Let's get to Oscar from New York. Oscar, welcome. You're on the air. Oh, yes, sir. My question, I'm curious. How did the serpent know that God told Adam not to eat of the tree knowledge of good and evil? Well, he doesn't really say how he knew. Now it could be we could just offered ideas. Okay. And so it says, did God say he can't eat any of the tree? So we don't know. He's a spiritual being. Maybe he was around. And it would raise up other issues, you know, wait a minute, the garden was a good place, how could he get into the good place? Well, obviously he could, because there he was. So he was doubting God's word, and so the implication is that there was a condition in his existence that allowed him to be there and be aware of what was being said. This would lend credence to the idea that demonic forces fell before Satan did his evil right there in the garden. Because one of the theories is a demonic realm fell at that time, which I don't agree with. It's just a theory, you know, and that's okay, but I don't agree with it. Because it would seem to me that there were demonic influences or presences around that were aware of things, either communicated to the evil one, or he saw somehow in the spiritual realm, was able to see things. and then manifest it. Which if you think about it, let's just say that we work with this scenario that as a spirit he was able to, and he's an incredibly powerful spirit, and we don't know how great he is in his power and his ability. So we don't know hypothetically if he's outside the garden and he has super good hearing and he can hear stuff that we wouldn't be realizing. We just don't know this kind of stuff. But what's interesting is that he manifested physically in order to deceive. It was a physical manifestation. So he took the form of a serpent. That's right. Now, we don't know exactly. I've heard one of the commentators about the Hebrew word. We're not exactly sure what that word means. But the implication and tradition says it's a serpent, a snake of some sort, because of what it says. It could cause a lie on the ground and things like that. But there's a little bit of discussion about it. I remember these things. I read through stuff. Oh, it's a nice interesting little tidbit of info and sometimes I'll repeat them. But yeah, and then we have the issue of the snake being lifted up on the pole when they were to, in the garden, excuse me, when Moses and the people were out there, they look on the pole, the snake on the pole. and they were healed. This lends the idea, the credence, the idea that it was actually a snake in the garden, because that snake is a symbol of sin. When they looked upon the snake on the pole, which is sin, lifted up. Jesus became sin. He was imputed with our sin. And so 2 Corinthians 5.21, 1 Peter 2.24. So that's why it probably is an actual snake form. Or it could be that it had legs and then the curse meant it did not then have legs. These are just possibilities, but we don't know what they are, what the actuality is. Well, thank you, thank you very much. Okay, bye-bye. Okay. All right, God bless. All right. Hey folks, if you want to give me a call, it's easy. All you have to do is dial 877-207-2276. All right, because we're talking about Eastern Orthodoxy a little bit, what I want to do is go through and read some stuff from official Eastern Orthodox sources. And I'm going to say this in a preamble, and I say this not because any Eastern Orthodox or Catholic guy or girl did something wrong to me, broke my heart, hurt me, nothing like that at all. This is purely theological, purely based on Scripture. What does the Bible say? And when I read the scriptures, I believe God's word. I believe that the scriptures are inspired. Now what you're going to notice, if you have any discussions with Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, the supremacy of scripture isn't there. What is there is the supremacy of their church. The church gave you the Bible because the authority of the church authenticated the Bible. So their authority is what you judge God's Word by. This is the attitude that they have. When that's the case, it means that their church can tell you what to believe, what to think, etc., etc. That's what they say. When you go through and you listen to some of this stuff, for example, this is the Orthodox Catechism of Philaret and it says Now this quote uses the word Catholic, Catholic Church, but you have to understand that this was written hundreds of years ago, and what it meant then was the universal church. So when they say Catholic in this context, it doesn't mean the Roman Catholic, it means the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, because the word Catholic means universal. So it says, the Apostle Peter writes that baptism saved us after the figure of Noah's Ark, which is interesting. All who were saved from the general deluge were saved only in the Ark. So all who obtained everlasting salvation obtained it only in the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church. You can only have salvation in their church. Now, think about what that means. It's the ecclesiastical structure with the smells and the bells and the guys up front in their altar, which is unbiblical, and their sacrifice that's repeated, which is unbiblical. And their icons in their church that they bow down to, which is unbiblical. They say there's no salvation outside of their earthly organization. So here's another quote. This is from OCA.org. It's a Eastern Orthodox Church. I think it's called Eastern Orthodox Church of America. And it says, salvation for Orthodox Christians is seen as deliverance from the curse of sin and death, which makes it possible for us to enter into union with God through Christ the Savior. Salvation includes a process of growth of the whole person, whereby the sinner is transformed in the image and likeness of God. So what they're doing is they're confusing salvation or justification with sanctification. And so this is from the Orthodox Study Bible, page 1549. The Orthodox Christians see salvation in at least three aspects. One, I have been saved. Two, I am being saved. And three, I will be saved. So that's what they teach. You have been, and I am, and I'm being saved. In other words, for them, it's a process. So check this out. This is from the longer catechism of the Eastern Orthodox Church, question 385. Of what benefit will it be to us to mediate on death, on the resurrection, on the last judgment, on the everlasting happenings? and on everlasting torment. These meditations will assist us to abstain from sin and to wean our affections from earthly things. They will console us for the absence or loss of worldly goods, incite us to keep our souls and bodies pure, to live to God and to eternity, and so to attain everlasting salvation. It's works-based. Now look, I can read quotes. I can go through a whole hour. But I've got to get through to the listeners. I have to get through to the Christians who really believe the word of God and are not deceived by Roman Catholicism or Orthodoxy. Trying to get through to Christians, you need to understand what the gospel really is. The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. And how is it that we obtain that salvation before God? It's by faith alone in Christ alone. But this is rejected flat out by the East Orthodox and the Roman Catholics, the EO and the RC. They reject it. Justification to them. Both of them. I won't get into Catholics right now. I could do that easily. But justification. is just, I've got this word I want to quote, it is a process, it is something that is, in order to be justified, you need to do things. Now, I want you to understand, the Bible says this, to the one who does not work but believes, and him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness. What is credited as righteousness? Faith. It says, to the one who does not work but believes. That's Romans 4-5. Romans 3.28 says, we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. And Galatians 2.16 says the same thing. Also you go to Philippians 3.9, which says we have a righteousness that's not of our own, a righteousness that comes to God on the basis of faith. Romans 5.1, having therefore been justified by faith. That's how we get this, and it's the faith that God grants to us. And yet, in goarch.org, it's an Eastern Orthodox site, according to St. Paul, not only loving deeds, but also the sacrament of baptism and the Eucharist are decisive to salvation. You have to be baptized, take the Eucharist, and do good works to be saved. Ladies and gentlemen, this is a false gospel. This is from the pit of hell. This is not of God, because the Word of God refutes it. The Word of God stands in opposition to their teaching, flat out. The Roman Catholic Church and the East Orthodox Church, I'm reading the EO stuff now, they're not Christian churches. They're false churches. And they are full of people who have dead men's bones abiding in them. And we know this because they prefer the church history, the church fathers, the church councils, what their church says over the Word of God. And when I go to the Word of God and I read the Word of God to them, half the time I do that, they interrupt me reading God's Word and they want to go someplace else. And the other half, they reinterpret it and they rephrase things to make the Word of God itself support what they want. I can't tell you how many times this has happened to me. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times. Talking about this kind of stuff with Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. The Christian church is supposed to be equipped for the work of ministry. You Christians need to know this stuff. You Christians need to understand. What the true doctrine of justification is, you need to read it, you need to know it, you need to study it. Read Romans 3, 4, and 5. Study what it means to be justified, what justification is. You need to study it. And why do you need to study it? Because you need to know it so that you can give the truth to people lost in false churches like Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian science, unity, Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy. You can give the power of God's Word, which will not come back empty without accomplishing what God desires. Romans, excuse me, Isaiah 55, 11. You need to study God's Word. You need to know it. My job as a pastor, my job as an ex-pastor and as a Christian apologist is to equip the Christian church and give answers and provide stuff so that you can go out and do the work of ministry. I can field test so many things and I can break it down and show you this is where it is. This is what they're going to say. This is how you deal with it. You go check it out yourself. You make sure what I'm saying is true. You don't just believe me because I'm on the radio. You believe the word of God and you as Christians need to know this. You as Christians need to study. You do not have the right to sit idly by and say it's someone else's job. You need to be called on the carpet to learn God's word. That doesn't mean everybody has to know what I know. It means you need to know what God wants you to know. And that's another topic. How do you find that out? Well, that I can talk about tomorrow. But remember, if somebody calls you up and asks, we are out of time now. May the Lord bless you. And by His grace, we'll be back on air tomorrow. Talk to you then. Another program powered by the Truth Network.