Good to see all of you. Come on in and open your Bibles to Hebrews 4. Talking about Christ being our high priest, our great high priest, our sympathetic high priest. And we'll continue that discussion quite a bit in the book of Hebrews. Let me go ahead and open us in prayer. Father, thank you for the sympathetic and great high priest that we have in Christ. Thank you that you provided one who is better than the earthly high priest to provide mediation between us and yourself. We do thank you for the book of Hebrews and the wonderful teaching it gives us on this topic. I think these are especially powerful verses as we talk about the grace and mercy that's afforded us. through the mediation Christ provides and so help us not just to learn these things but to apply them to our lives that in times of testing or suffering we look to Christ or temptation for the grace and mercy we need that we press into the throne room and see Christ at your right hand that are mediating for us Lord. So help us to apply this to our lives, our daily walk with you, give us understanding of the verses, and bless the conversation we have, and we pray all this in Jesus' name, amen. Amen, all right, good to see all of you. Thank you very much, Chase. Okay, Hebrews 4, I think we'll finish these verses and begin Hebrews 5 this morning. Who got to attend the celebration yesterday? It was wonderful, wasn't it? It was a wonderful celebration, one of the most beautiful I've attended. I thought it was really fantastic. Really appreciate Dick's example in life for me and for others and many ways I saw I'd like to be like him. It's quite a bit of fruit in Dick's life that I would love to have in my life. And so I'm very thankful for his example. I think about Paul and how Paul said to imitate me as I imitate Christ. And there are ways that Dick looks like Christ that I would like to look more like Christ myself. So we're in verses 14 through 16. Let me just read through them. Hebrews 4, 14, since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. So we made it through verse 14, we're in verse 15, and we'll reach verse 16 this morning. Now there's a contrast. there's a contrast between the earthly high priest and Christ. So let's, or in particular, the earthly, yeah, the earthly high priest and Christ. So let's talk about them for a moment so we can appreciate how much better Jesus is. So you don't have to turn there, but Exodus 29 describes the consecration of the high priest. Or you could say it describes the steps that must be taken. Consecration is the act of making something holy. Consecration in the sense if you understand holy means set apart Consecration is the act of taking something and setting it apart. So when something is consecrated it is made holy or set apart from the Lord and so inanimate objects could be material objects could be consecrated or made holy but in this case, this is the consecration of the high priest and He had to be because he had to be set apart for God's use So if you read all the steps in Exodus 29 It is long, and there are many of them. But even after this entire process took place, it still couldn't change what about the high priest. Even after the earthly high priest was consecrated, what couldn't be, or he was set apart to serve God, or he was made holy, what still wasn't changed about him? There might be a few answers to this, although there's one thing in particular I'm looking for. It was temporary, it was a temporary priesthood. That's why I don't understand the Catholic Church forbidding marriage, but had marriage been forbidden with the Levitical priest, then the Levitical priesthood would not have continued and there would not have been further earthly high priests. They had a temporary ministry because they died and their ministry concluded at that point. After they're consecrated, what else remained the same about them? That's a they're still sinners. They were still sinners. Keep that in mind. That's a major point here He was a sinful as the people he represented and this is why if the high priest was to approach God on behalf of the people The first thing that he had to do was deal with his own sin He had to deal with the issue that separated him from God in the first place and that's the sin just look briefly like one chapter to the right of chapter 5 verse 3 and It says, because of this, the earthly high priest is obligated to offer sacrifice for his own sins just as he does for those of the people. So before he could mediate for them and offer sacrifice for them, he had to offer sacrifices for himself. So notice this. Before he could act as high priest and deal with the people's sin, he had to deal with his own sin. And so to make this clear, every high priest was a sinner. And so you had a very weak arrangement here. You had the best arrangement you could from an earthly perspective, but it was still a weak arrangement because you had sinful men acting as high priests for other sinful men. You had sinners trying to mediate for other sinners. Not to explain it in full detail, because I've mentioned it before, but it's the courtroom scene where a criminal stands up and advocates for another criminal, or a criminal says, I'll take the punishment for this criminal. The judge is going to say well, you're also a criminal you have your own punishment You know, you can't take the punishment for someone when you also have done the same the criminal can't advocate for the other criminal But that's what's happening here with a high priest sinful high priest mediating for other other sinners So there's a weakness Absurdity might be too strong of a word but a weakness of this situation So it was a depressing situation to the Israelites because this is the man that's representing God for them. This is the man that stands between them and God. So they see this individual representing them. He's gone through the entire process, he's got all these elaborate garments on, he's about to perform his duties for the people, and before he mediates for them, or offers sacrifice for them, they watch him offer a sacrifice for his own sin. And so when they look at him, when the Israelites look at this high priest, there's this very nagging suspicion, this frustrating thought that this man is like us. He's as big of a sinner as us. He's not any better than us. How well can he actually mediate? For us so it'd probably be difficult to have confidence in him and maybe they'd even know the high priest personally Maybe they even knew times that he he was imperfect. Maybe he wasn't that blameless And so it was it was a concerning situation for them I suspect and so what they really needed was they needed a sinless individual who could occupy this office Which is why jesus is such a great high priest or is a better high priest in verse 15 We're building up just to be able to say this. Look at verse 15 at the end of the verse. It says, yet without sin, yet without sin. So that's really what they needed was a high priest who was without sin, and that's what they had in Jesus, or what we have in Jesus. So I'll show you a verse that perfectly captures Jesus' superiority to the earthly high priests who offer sacrifices for their sins. Look at Hebrews 7.27. Hebrews 7.27, he, speaking of Christ, has no need, like those high priests, referring to earthly high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins, and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. So there's this contrast, you're in Hebrews 5, you see the discussion of the earthly high priest offering sacrifices for himself, Through each chapter 7, see Jesus' superiority that he need not offer sacrifices for himself because of his sinlessness. So this huge difference between Jesus as our high priest and the earthly high priest. Any thoughts or questions? kind of even the attention or focus for the earthly high priest. You've got an earthly high priest who no matter how much he can focus on the people's sins, it's not a full attention to it because he's got to focus on his own sins. But you've got Christ with no sin of his own to focus on who can focus entirely or exclusively on our sins. Any thoughts? Okay, good. Thanks. I was just thinking the difference between the earthly high priest and Christ is that the earthly high priest had to do these things out of necessity, but Christ did it out of benevolence, out of love for us, that he came down, put on human flesh, lived a life we couldn't live, and then offered himself, like it says in verse 27. When he offered up himself, he did this once. The one time it was needed. It's beautiful. Well said, thanks brother. Anyone else? Okay, if you think about it, there's nothing special about being tempted. We've all been tempted, we're tempted every day. Being tempted doesn't make Jesus better than us. Being tempted makes him like us in that way, that he's tempted like we're tempted. That's why he's sympathetic, because he knows what it's like to be tempted, or knows what it's like for us to be tempted, having been through the same. But there's something about Jesus being tempted that makes him better than us, or makes him a better high priest. It's that he was tempted, but he never sinned. So previously, we talked extensively about Jesus sympathizing with us, so many ways he can relate to us, so many experiences he had that are like our experiences, so many ways that his humanity is like our humanity, from his hunger, thirst, fatigue, betrayal he experienced, rejection, the mistreatment. We don't have records of Jesus being sick, but we can assume that having the same frailties we have, that He was sick at times. We know that He died. We know He labored with such anxiety in the garden. At times, it just seemed almost hard for Him to gather Himself. But right here we see where or how Jesus is not like us. This is the major difference, that he does not sympathize with our sinfulness, or he doesn't relate to our wrongdoing. So Jesus is sympathetic to our temptation, but he doesn't look at us sinning and say, oh yeah, I relate to that, I'm grieved for you because I'm a sinner too. There's nothing like that. The fact that Jesus was sinless but could still sympathize with us might sound fairly simple, but it actually teaches a profound truth that I want to make sure we understand, that you don't have to sin to be sympathetic. You don't have to sin to be sympathetic with people. And this is important for what area of ministry in particular. There's kind of this, I've heard this teaching and it's just not true. or evangelism, or I would say counseling. There's kind of this belief that if you haven't done some of the same things, now I'm not saying that a person who has struggles, and we'll even talk about this in the sermon today, the same struggles as others, that there might not be something unique about that ministry to them. But if it was true that the person you go to for counsel has to have committed the same sin as you, Well, then, I mean, the search is going to be on, oh, you know, to ask every single counselor, have you struggled with this, or did this happen, or did you commit adultery, too? And that's not the case. What is really required to be able to counsel or minister to people effectively? The Word of God, familiarity with that. To be a good counselor, a biblical counselor, really little more than being able to bring God's word to bear on a situation or equip someone to view the temptation or sin biblically. And so really what's needed to counsel effectively is familiarity with God's word, not having committed the same sin yourself. Now, someone who has overcome a sin can have a unique ministry to someone who's going through that same sin. There can be a real benefit in that, but it's not a necessity. People can still effectively counsel people who have committed different sins than them by their familiarity with Scripture. Any thoughts? Make sure you talk into the microphone, okay, Patrick? Okay. The Lord has sworn and will not relent. You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. What does that refer to? You jumped ahead there, Patrick. Oh, I did? We're going to talk, that's fine, we're going to talk a whole bunch about the Melchizedekian priesthood when we get to chapter 7. But just simply, Chase, hand the microphone to Patrick for a second. Okay, so what tribe were priests supposed to be from? From the Jewish tribe. I mean, all the tribes of the Jewish people, mostly. Do you know, Don? Levites. Oh, for the priesthood, yes. You've got 12 tribes. You've got a Levitical tribe, or excuse me, you've got a priestly tribe, which is the Levites. What's the kingly tribe? Judah, right? You look at the kings of Israel, and it's like this tree with branches going out everywhere, because in the northern kingdom of Israel, there's always different dynasties and houses. Right? You've got Jeroboam's house or dynasty. Because each of these men were evil, then God did not allow their houses or dynasties to continue. You've got the house of Ahab. I really say the house of Omri because Omri is Ahab's father. But you've got multiple dynasties over the northern kingdom of Israel because these kings were evil and God would cut off their line and then establish a new dynasty. And that happened repeatedly. All I think it was 19 Kings were all evil that only came close to being good Which I wouldn't even argue necessarily that he was good was Jehu. That's it. Now the southern kingdom of Judah There's one tribe and that's the tribe of Judah. So every king was a son of the previous king. So it's kind of a straight line. I mean, there were times toward the end there where there were brothers or even like a nephew, but they were all from the tribe of Judah. So you had 12 tribes, the priestly tribe, Levi, the kingly tribe, Judah. Now here's the dilemma though. This meant a man could be, what are a couple offices a man could occupy, and what are some offices he couldn't occupy at the same time? I don't know if that sounds kind of tricky, but a man could occupy a couple offices or positions at once. And I might even challenge you to see if you can tell me some men who were, Chase, run that over to Pastor Nathan, please, who occupied a few positions at once. Samuel was a prophet, but also he was a priest. He was able to offer sacrifices. And the last... What's that? And he was the last... Oh, the last judge. You said it Sunday night. He's this transitional figure. The last judge. The first prophet. The word of the Lord was rare in those days. And Samuel comes on the scene and restores the word because Eli, talking about cutting off houses, Eli's house is cut off, his sins are evil, and God raises up Samuel to bring the word as a prophet, the beginning of the prophets, the last judge, right? So Samuel is prophet, he is priest, and he was judge, that's pretty unique. What else? What do you think with David? He was king and prophet, that's exactly right. David was a king and he was a prophet. Okay, so let's get to it. But what couldn't you be? You can't be king and priest, because you can't be from? You can't be from two tribes, right? It's an impossibility. So you can't be from Levi and you can't be from Judah at the same time. You're from one or the other. So that's one of the dilemmas for the Jews with Jesus being their priest was they knew that Jesus was from the tribe of Judah. And they knew that the Messiah would be from the tribe of Judah. Back when Jacob, I think this is probably, so like, if you kind of, this is pretty neat if you'll follow me on this, and I know I'm deviating from my notes, but I'm the teacher, so I can do that when I want. This is kind of neat to think about, that at the fall, there's a prophecy that God is going to provide a savior. And what's the title for that savior in Genesis 3? What's he called? Seed of the woman, that's right. He's called the seed of the woman, which tells you that the savior is not going to be an angel. Now you say, well, why would you even, what's the big deal of that? Well, the big deal is the serpent was an angel, a fallen angel. So I'm just saying you might think that if God is going to provide an individual who crushes the head of the serpent, and the serpent's an angel, that it's gonna be another angel. Like in particular, maybe you think it's gonna be who? Who's like the militaristic angel? And you've got the messenger angel and Gabriel, you've got the militaristic angel and Michael. So I'm just saying maybe you'd think if you didn't know better that Michael's going to come and defeat Satan, the serpent. And then you find out, no, he's going to be a seed of a woman. So he's going to be a man. which I think would probably be kind of shocking to people. So then as you're seeing this line established, this thread, right? So let's kind of go through this together and you can yell out some of these answers. So you've got Adam and Eve, obviously the only people you know who's gonna come from Adam and Eve. And then which, now which son would Adam and Eve have more than likely thought was going to, don't tell me which son was going to, but which son would they have more than likely thought was going to crush the head of the serpent? I think when they held Cain. They have this first child, and he looks at Cain and thinks, this is my seed. This child will crush the head of the serpent. And then he crushes, instead, his brother, right? Abel, the line would have went through Abel. So it's this chess match. It's this cosmic, spiritual chess match. Move, countermove. Move, countermove between God and the devil. And so, you know, the devil tempts. God's going to provide a Savior. And the Savior's going to come through Adam and Eve. The Savior's going to come through Abel. And then Satan thwarts the line because he defeats the line through Abel. And then God raises up Seth, so the end of Genesis 4 talks about Seth continuing that line, men begin to call on the name of the Lord, the thread is continuing. And you keep going and you're kind of waiting to see where this line is gonna continue. And then the next individual prominent person in this line is who? Genesis 12, God calls this man out of Ur of the Chaldeans, Abraham, so now you're seeing this line continue, it's gonna go through Abraham. It's gonna go through Isaac. It's gonna go through Jacob. Then Jacob lays his hands on his sons and he says that the scepter shall not depart from Shiloh and he prophesies that the Messiah is going to come from Judah. And then you're continuing through Judah and then I say the next prominent person is, the Messiah will be the son of? David the Davidic covenant is made with David and so you're just Following this line going through and there's didn't remember that super dramatic point in Israel's history when the entire dynasty of David came down to one little baby and because all of his brothers had been slaughtered. And if this baby had not been spared, then the house of David would have been wiped out. God would not have been able to bring his son into the world through the house of David. So talk about counter move from the devil. He stirs up one of the wickedest women in human history to slaughter all of her own grandchildren. You just can't even imagine it. Who's that? Athaliah sees her son lose the throne. So here's what's happening. In a super horrible moment, Jehoshaphat, who's a pretty good king but could not seem to stop being ecumenical, wants, at least when he shouldn't be ecumenical, there can be times to be ecumenical, but he wants to join with the house of Ahab. Just think about this for a moment. You've got a king from the house of Judah who wants to join with the house of Ahab. When I say that, you guys do what? You go like this, you go. Right, you're just like, oh, what was he thinking? He was a good king, Jehoshaphat was a good king, but he takes his son and marries his son to the daughter of Ahab and Jezebel. You never want your son to marry someone related to Ahab and Jezebel. Okay, if you're ever faced in that situation, never have a son marry someone descended from Ahab and Jezebel. And he does that, so now there is this intersection between the house of Judah and the house of Ahab, and so when Athaliah who's from the house of Ahab, sees that the throne is going to return to Judah, she actually destroys all of her own grandsons, murders all of her own grandsons, so that the throne will remain with her and she can be queen. So she slaughters all of her own grandsons, so she can keep the throne, and it looks like the house of Ahab is gonna reign over Judah. And then this little baby, Jehoash, is stolen into the temple, and they're watching him grow. I think they probably didn't let him near any windows, I'm not kidding. He never went outside, because if he was seen, Athaliah would have slaughtered him. So Jehoash grows up in the temple, and then does anyone know what age they make him king? seven or eight, I think it was eight. And they're just like, they're like, come on man, grow, grow. They're like, we want to be done with Athaliah. How quickly can we get you on the throne? And maybe someone's like, when he's 20, someone's like, well, you know, we can't wait that long. Like put him on the throne at eight. He became king when he was eight. I mean, I think, He makes Josiah look old when he became king. I think, what was Josiah, like 12 or something? And so it's pretty incredible. So he takes the throne when he's eight years old because they just could not wait to get Athaliah off the throne. And they bring Jeholash out, crown him, and then execute Athaliah finally. But my point is that that thread, I mean, it just narrowed to this point where if that baby had been killed, if he had not been hidden, then the house of David comes to an end there. So it's really super, I don't know why nobody's ever made a movie about this. But it would be an incredibly dramatic, exciting story for someone to tell someday. So anyway, so that thread's going, going, going. And the point is this. When the Messiah comes and he's from the house of Judah, they know that, or from the tribe of Judah, everyone knows that, but they said, he can be our king, but he can't be our priest. So if he's gonna be our priest, then he's, well, he couldn't be our priest, that's what they said. But then there was this prophecy from Psalm 110, that the Messiah would be the priest according to, finish it for me, the Order of Melchizedek, right? So the beautiful thing is the Old Testament prophesied, which the Jews couldn't deny. This isn't like something Paul wrote. This isn't something novel that Paul introduced. And he expects all the Jews to believe it, because they hold to their scriptures. And so There are scriptures in Psalm 110 prophesied that the Messiah wouldn't be a Levitical priest, he would be a priest according to the order of Melchizedek. So all that has to be established is that he's descended from Melchizedek. And then the other thing, so here's the other thing. Now you guys can read ahead. If the priest, if the high priest is from the order of Melchizedek, there's only one other question then, or one other point that has to be made, which is which priesthood is better? So if you've got two priesthoods, and you've got the high priest coming from the Melchizedekian priesthood, now you must also show that the Melchizedekian priesthood is better than the Levitical priesthood. Because if the Levitical priesthood looks better, Well, then the Levitical priest looks better than Jesus. The Levitical high priest looks better than Jesus, right? So the other thing that the author of Hebrews does under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is shows the superiority, or shows that the Melchizedekian priesthood is better than the Levitical priesthood. But that's in chapter seven, we'll get to that. Patrick just super threw me off course there, but it's all Patrick's fault, okay? All right, any thoughts or anything before we continue? Okay, where were we here, guys? Okay, so Jesus is sympathetic to us because of the temptation he resisted. He would not be more sympathetic if he sinned. He'd be less sympathetic if he sinned. And the reason is when we send our hearts become harder, we produce more of the works of the flesh, less of the food of the spirit. I don't know if you ever think about this before. People make this analogy with the two dogs, right? The dog you feed is the one that grows stronger. And they're talking about the battle between the flesh and the spirit. So there's a spectrum all of us live on. All of us are on this spectrum. There's flesh on one side, there's spirit on the other. There's the works of the flesh, not the good works that are produced by salvation, but the works of the flesh on one side, and then the fruit of the spirit on the other side, and they're in contrast to each other. Fruit of the spirit, works of the flesh. A spectrum between them. And we're always moving on that spectrum. This is sanctification. This is becoming more like Christ. This isn't anything works-based. This is not legalistic. One of the biggest problems, there's two huge problems in the church. You call something legalistic that's not legalistic, or you give license to people and make them feel like they can do something that they shouldn't do. So we're always trying to rightly divide things. And on this spectrum, when we're obedient, we're moving, we're growing in our spirit. exhibiting more of the fruit of the Spirit. We're becoming more like Christ. When we give in to the flesh, and the flesh becomes stronger, now on that spectrum, we're moving the other direction. The pendulum is swinging this way. We're becoming less like Christ. We're exhibiting more of the works of the flesh. But there's always this continuum where we're moving one way or the other. And so what are you feeding, right? I listen to Katie. She regularly, she's been, I don't know if she's in here. Is she in here now? So one of the things Katie does that I like is she talks to our kids when she sees them wasting time. And she talked to them about feeding their spirit. She talks to them about reading the word or listening to sermons and saying, well, what are you feeding? Essentially, which dog is gonna be getting stronger here? What are you putting in your body or putting before you? And how much have you read the word today? Or have you read the word today? and you need to be feeding yourself spiritually or else you will be like a baby. You just won't be growing or maybe you'll stay a baby. Any thoughts on this? Okay, so when we sin, our hearts become harder, produce more of the works of the flesh, less of the works of the spirit. Spurgeon explained it like this. Sin is always a hardening nature. If Jesus sinned, he would have had less sympathy toward us. He would not be more sympathetic if he sinned. And I think that's important because sometimes we think that sin allows us to be more sympathetic to others. Maybe you've even heard people defend or justify their sin because they supposedly allow them to relate better to others, and two huge problems with this. First, obviously, it's defending or justifying sin, or it's acting like sin does something good. Sin never does something good. There are times God does something good despite sin, But that's a world of difference between sin itself doing something good. Sin never does something good. God might be gracious and provide something good from a sinful situation. I'll just give you, I'll give you two examples. A believer marries an unbeliever. the unbeliever comes to faith, and then what are people tempted to legitimize? Unequally yoked relationships, or a believer marrying an unbeliever because then the unbeliever can, you know, flirt to convert, right? So you just don't do that. The Bible's very clear that believers are to marry believers, but if God is gracious and an unbeliever comes to faith, and here's what's interesting. If you talk to many people who marry an unbeliever and that unbeliever came to faith, they will be the first ones to tell you not to follow their example because there was often an incredibly hard road that preceded their spouse coming to faith. Lots of long nights of praying and probably isolated Sundays of being at church by themselves without their spouse, lots of conflict over the gospel, and so they'll be the first ones to tell you, don't follow my example and do what I did, even if God was gracious in my situation. You don't wanna have to go through this yourself. But the fact is, just because a believer marries an unbeliever and the unbeliever comes to faith, that doesn't mean the believer did something good. It means the believer sinned, because they disobeyed scripture, but God chose to do something good from it. Or if people fornicate and a baby's produced, or a baby's born. Every baby is precious, made in the image of God, described as a gift or a blessing, spoken of. Every child is presented so positively in Scripture. And so we should always have a very positive or high view of children. And so if people fornicate and a child is produced, it's very tempting to legitimize that fornication. But it's not. And there's often quite a bit of problems or difficulty associated with that. I was just talking to a woman last night after the celebration at the potluck, and she was sharing about one of the struggles that her daughter has had associated with a child that she had out of wetlock. And if you would have listened to her, you'd think that that is not something that you want people to have to go through. So yes, God produced something beautiful from that, but it doesn't legitimize the sin. Any questions or thoughts before we continue? Here's the verse. Romans 3, 8, Paul condemned people who said, let us do evil that good may come. Romans 3, 8, Paul condemned people who said, let us do evil that good may come. Or in our vernacular, the ends don't justify the means. You don't get to do something bad to get something good at the end of that. The second problem is it's implying that Jesus can't really sympathize with us because he never sinned. If you say this, let's just move to the end of this logic. If you believe or teach that we are more sympathetic to people when we have committed the same sins as them, then you must acknowledge Jesus is unsympathetic to us because he didn't sin. Those can't be separated from each other. If you say, this person is more, I am more sympathetic because I sinned, then you're implying that sympathy is associated with sin, and Jesus cannot be a sympathetic high priest. So we have to be very careful to ever imply that there would be, we could sympathize better with people if we have committed the same sin as them. The fact that Jesus can't be so sympathetic is evidence we don't need to sin or have committed the same sins to be sympathetic toward others. Often when people have committed the same sins and they discuss those sins, this is interesting. When I was in California, so I always feel a little better sharing stories from California because nobody knows any of those people. So we're in California and there was a kind of a teenage group Maybe this group could have been different had there been an older person that was part of it that provided some counsel or structure or prevented some of the discussions that ended up happening. So there was a group of teenage guys that would get together for accountability. And I'm using the word accountability loosely. Evolved over time to become almost a boastful group about things they were doing sinfully or even sharing about things they did with girls and I think they were acting like they were confessing these things, but there was a amount of you know levity joking Watering down sin to where instead of coming in and rebuking each other for the things that they were doing I think they looked forward to coming in and talking about whether it was drinking or maybe things they watched and so when people have committed the same sins and they discuss those sins together, they can actually be tempted to console each other in those sins or tempted to minimize those sins. It takes a very strong person to be able to kind of toe the line and say and point out the wickedness of that sin and hold others to recognize that line as well versus kind of being sympathetic and saying, well, you know, I did that too. I remember one time this gentleman, this is a horrible thing this man did. He meant well, but I, sinned and I'm was convicted or broken about this and I go to talk to this gentleman about it and He tries to console me or comfort me and he said he said to me Well, you need to recognize that all sins the same and this is just like worrying and Well guess what that did? Suddenly my conviction's gone and I'm like, oh, and I actually felt licensed to do something that I had previously felt convicted about because now I thought it was no worse than worrying. Which is also why I think it's really bad to say what about sins? They're all the same. Sins are not all the same. They're not described the same in scripture. They are not described with the same consequences. There are sins that are abominations. which implies there are some sins that are not abominations. Proverbs 6 discusses six things that God hates, which means that even though He hates all sin, these six seem to be elevated above others, and a seventh thing that's an abomination to Him. Romans 1 describes homosexuality as a sin against nature because it is unnatural. No other sins are described that way. Hebrews describes bitterness as a sin with what? What does bitterness have that I don't know of another sin that's described this way? It has what with it? A root that defiles many. I don't know of other sins that are written about that way. 1 Corinthians 5 describes sexual sin as a sin against our own bodies. Murder, you see it back in Genesis 4, murder is described as a sin that invites the ground to call out for justice when blood is shed. It doesn't say when you lie that the blood of the victim calls out for justice. So sins are described the same with different punishments and consequences. And so don't ever tell someone worrying is the same as something else. Some sins are much worse than others. Any thoughts or questions on that? So in like a counseling setting, would you kind of restrain yourself from, if somebody came in and confessed that they had committed a certain sin, let's say it's a sexual sin, and you had sexual sin in your past, would you refrain from sharing with that person, hey, this is similar to where I've struggled, Okay, I would not refrain I shared if I can if I can identify with someone and I can share that You know I've done this committed this sin or share from a position of experience and say these are consequences or things that happen I've done that but I and I would encourage that but I'm not saying that if you can't do that that you can't minister Okay, my main point isn't that you shouldn't share My main point is you shouldn't believe that you can't minister if you haven't done the same thing. I get it Okay Right there. In fact, like I said, there can be a unique ministry. People who've struggled with pornography or drinking. I shared before, I could be a sin flasher and tell you struggles I've had. One of them that I haven't had is drunkenness. I've been drunk, but I'm not attracted to alcohol, and it doesn't taste good to me. Being drunk is not a pleasant experience. So that's not a difficult temptation to resist. But I can still counsel or minister to people who would struggle with alcohol or drunkenness because I can tell them what God's word says about drunkenness. I don't have to have done that. But if I'm dealing with someone who's Has a struggle that I've had I will share with that person that I had this struggle and I'll share either maybe ways that God helped me overcome it if I've if it's something that I've overcome or even If I'm still struggling with and invite them to pray with me But even if I didn't have that same experience or struggle as them I can still minister to them by bringing God's Word to bear on it, which is the main point Ethan So I guess kind of piggybacking off that, but also kind of tying it in with the sermons you've been giving about, you know, weeping with those who weep. If someone is sharing a sin, but they're clearly grieving it and they're weeping over it, would you still in that moment share your experience or just hold off and just, you know, just let them kind of weep and grieve? Good. So do you mean because we're talking about two different things, there can be some similarities. The sermons have been about people suffering trials, and now we're talking about people struggling with sin, which are two different things. Yeah, I guess, I guess that was my question. If those, I guess you just kind of answered it. Like if those are two different things you would deal with differently, or if they are, you would deal with those the same, like grieving, if someone grieving their sin or grieving a trial. I see Romans 12, 15, you know, rejoice of those who rejoice, weep of those who weep, associated with trials and not sin. 1 Corinthians 12, 26, suffering with those who suffer, and when one member is honored, everyone is honored together, that's associated with trials and, yeah, trials and successes or prosperity and not sin. I don't, I think I'll try to say someone's convicted over their sin is language that I'll try to use, or broken over their sin, because I think that's biblical language for that. And so I don't see someone's brokenness over sin the same as someone weeping over the loss of a loved one. even though they might have the similarity of looking grieved or broken in both situations, the loss of a loved one is vastly different than someone who is convicted over their sin. But if someone is convicted over their sin, I actually think that's a really beautiful thing to see. That is something to celebrate and encourage. So if someone is, you know, they're just a puddle before you, broken over their sin, there is a lot of encouragement you can offer at that moment. You can tell them that what you're witnessing is beautiful right now. you can tell them that God rejoices overseeing this sort of brokenness. But what you don't want to do, and this is a big mistake, is because we're tempted to want to, we like to comfort and encourage, so when someone is broken over their sin, what is the one thing we want to make sure we don't say? It's okay. It isn't okay. Don't say that. You're shortchanging what the Holy Spirit's doing in their life. Don't say it's not that bad. When someone's broken over their sin, don't swoop in and remove the conviction or brokenness the Holy Spirit's providing. Instead, what you can do, and I said this before, don't minimize their sin. Instead, maximize what? Grace, the gospel, right? Talk about God's grace being able to cover or forgive that sin or the cross being greater than that sin. Romans, you know, 520 where sin abounds, grace abounds even more. But don't minimize the sin to them. I was going to emphasize what you were saying in regards to how testimonies can help in counseling and kind of answering Ethan's question too. If they're broken about their sin, the only place they need to go is find affirmation in God's Word. But if they're struggling to find that affirmation, that's where our testimonies come into play. Because just like God chooses to use fallible human beings to share the gospel because our lives are broken by sin but put back together by the grace of Jesus Christ, it's our weakness and our susceptibility to sin, our frailty that gives traction for other people to believe the Word of God because they see the changes in our lives. So a testimony is helpful when they're discouraged or not able to see or not know where to go to find truth in God's Word and you share your testimony. I kind of liken it this way. Your testimony and counseling should not be the landing pad that you take somebody to. They need to go to Christ. But it should be, your testimony can be the bridge. to help walk them or point them in the right direction, to get them over the confusion or the doubts, to find the answers that's in God's Word. I also want to comment on Christ the Great Hypocrite. Who was it that you were quoting? Was it Spurgeon that said sin hardens? Yes. So that was a fascinating aspect of it, that it doesn't make us more compassionate. And to that point, I was just thinking about how Christ's sinless nature is manifested not only in His inability to sin, His victory over sin, but in His compassion. Because of my sin nature, when I see somebody who can't do what I do, I can see myself welling up with pride. and not have compassion for the person, you're just not as strong as me, or you're just not as smart as me, and kind of increasing the distance between me and that person. But with Christ, He draws near to us in our weaknesses. And that's just a fascinating aspect of His nature, of not only to have victory over sin, but to seek and have sympathy for those who can't make it. It's awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Some other thoughts? Chase, over to Patrick, please. What do you do when a person is brought up in a culture that conflicts with the Word of God, or they're brought up to believe something that's not true, but that's the way their society is, and they raise their children in that kind of situation. where it's a different culture, a different race, or a different society altogether. How would you overcome that? Your question is basically, what do you do with people who believe something or have practiced something? that contradicts God's word or is contrary to God's word. Am I capturing your question? That's true. OK. So still, the best thing you can do is bring scripture to bear on it. And this is the way that I think is best to counsel. I shared this before. Sorry if some of you are hearing this again. But invite people to read what God's word says. If someone comes in for counseling and they walk in and they don't have a Bible, the first thing you do is hand them a Bible. So you want them to have a Bible. You don't read verses to people. Do not read verses to people in counseling. Invite people to read verses aloud. And don't even let them read it to themselves. If you say, please read this verse, and they read it to themselves, say, please read that out loud. Because there's something more powerful about preaching to yourself. They're having to preach the truth of God's word to themselves. I remember this one time, this gentleman, he said, my wife doesn't believe she's egalitarian, and she doesn't believe in submission. And I want her to come in and talk to you. And I said, OK, we can do this. So she comes in. And I had her read 1 Corinthians 11, where it says that the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the husband, and God is the head of Christ. And I just said, can you turn to 1 Corinthians 11 and read this verse? So she reads this verse. And I just said, what are your thoughts? What do you think this verse is saying? I mean, I could tell her what the verse says, and I could preach a whole bunch about male headship to her. But I thought it was beneficial to just say, what do you think this verse is saying? Just share your thoughts on it. And then we went to Ephesians 5, where it talks about the husband being the head of the wife, and just asking, instead of telling her, hey, this is what God's word says, that makes people defensive. It puts them in a corner. You know, you should believe that scripture says this. Why are you so rebellious? And insubmissive, not just to your husband, but to God's word. I mean, these are the sorts of things that create arguments. So to turn to Ephesians 5, I think, could you please read this? What do you think this is saying here? When it talks about a wife submitting to her husband, what do you think that means there? Now, here's the thing. This doesn't mean that every time you do that, everything's going to become rosy. And a woman or anyone in that situation is going to go, you know, she didn't. It actually went poorly. She left the church and brought her husband. And I wrote him, and I said, you've talked to me about your wife. not recognizing your headship. And right now, you're letting her be the head by pulling you out of the church. Just because maybe she's offended. By, I've liked, maybe she thought offended at me, but I think she's offended at God's word, but regardless. I said, you should be the head of your marriage, and you should lead here, and you should tell your wife that you believe God's calling you to WCC, if that's what you believe. I mean, if you think God's leading you somewhere else. But she got angry and she left. So my point isn't that inviting people to read God's word is always gonna work perfectly or change their heart. Because people can still reject God's word, and they can still have hard hearts. But here's the thing, this is super important. If you give someone God's Word, if you have someone read God's Word, and that does not persuade them, you have nothing else to resort to. You've done the very best you can, and you need to be encouraged with that. You need to be satisfied that you have given them that, because there's always this temptation if someone's mind hasn't changed, or they're not saying what we think, we tend to think that we've what? I'm a failure. I wasn't persuasive enough. If I would have had a better argument, if I could have just done or said this better, you can't say something better than this. So if you give this to someone, and they read it out loud or preach it to themselves, and they still say, no, I don't think a husband's head of the relationship. I don't think a wife should submit to her husband. Well, then you've done all you can do. That's the very best. read Romans 1, the second half, and they say, no, I think homosexuality is OK. Or you have them read 1 Corinthians 5, and they say, no, fornication, I think if two people really love each other, they can be intimate prior to marriage. If they've read 1 Corinthians 5 and that doesn't change their mind, or take them to Hebrews 13 about the judgment God brings on people who are sexually immoral, then I don't think you can give anyone anything better than that. And you just have to trust that you've gone as far as you can, and now it is between them and the Lord. Any thoughts on that? The other thing, while we're talking about counseling, I wanna make this point. There's a different, a shift in counseling that takes place when people are broken. So here's what I mean. If people are proud and they're denying their sin, then you're bringing God's word to bear on them to bring conviction, right? You're sharing what God's word says so they're convicted. But if people come in and they're broken over their sin, you bring God's word to encourage. and comfort, not minimize the sin, but encourage them about God's forgiveness and God's love for them. So there's actually two completely opposing approaches based on the person's condition in counseling. And so some of the most beautiful times I've had with my children, some of the tenderest moments have occurred when my kids have been convicted about their sin and have come to me about it or apologized. And in those moments, what are some things you don't say to people who are convicted or broken? What are some things you don't say, really bad things to say? You should be sorry. Man, that was stupid. What were you thinking? I know you're crying in front of me about what you did, and you clearly feel very bad about it. But can I just kick you some more, please? I mean, can I just tell you about how horrible you are? And you're worse than filth on a maggot's back, or whatever the filthiest, most wretched thing is. Can I just make you feel even more horrible about your life? And so I'm being facetious, but there is kind of this, really bad approach to counseling, then when people are feeling bad, you make them feel worse. That's not what you do. You hope God's word brings conviction, and then when God's word brings conviction, then you bring comfort and encouragement. So it is a really beautiful thing to feel, to see brokenness. And so when our kids, those are some of the sweetest moments we've had with our children, when they have owned sin, or apologized, or asked for forgiveness, or come and shared about things they've done or struggled with. Those are very precious moments. for parents with children, and why am I stressing that? Because I think it's the same with our Heavenly Father. Few things are as precious to God as a humble and broken spirit, right? This you will not despise, is what scripture says. And so, just as we value those moments with our children, I think that God does too. But if someone's convicted and broken, don't make them feel worse in that moment. Okay, Chase, over to Ethan, please. Good discussion of counseling this morning. I think this is very important. Glad you said it's good, because I don't want to keep going down to this rabbit hole if I want to keep going. But if you're counseling someone and you've offered the encouragement, they're broken and grieved over their sin, but it doesn't set in, and they just keep going on and on and on with this brokenness over their sinfulness. never like a restoration. Is there a certain point to where you do switch your approach or to where maybe you just hands off? What would you say or just the same what you said earlier, just the word of God has been spoken, there's nothing else you can do. Good. I'll share. We build our theology with imperatives. Let me say this. We build our theology with imperatives, or indicatives, or statements, like in Paul's epistles, and we support our theology with narratives. So you don't build theology with narratives. You find narratives that support the imperatives. So I'll give you a narrative here that I think is instructive, and that's when David was, I think, in sin. after his son Absalom died. So I'm just, because I'm trying to think, so Ethan's question is, what about when someone is like, just not picking themselves up off the ground? They're not moving on. You know, so in my mind, I'm like, okay, when do I see that happen in scripture? And there's a narrative that comes to mind. So here's what happened. David was not a good father, at least many times he wasn't. And I probably had to do with the many wives he married in the different houses he had. I mean, just men, raise your hand. How hard is it just to manage one house, you know? One wife, my son raised his hand, so he's... It's just having one house with one wife and children. So imagine a man that's got all these wives and all these children. So David's a great king, poor father. And he was incredibly sentimental toward his children. He just was unable to discipline them, probably because of his own sin. You know, parenting with a sinful past can be bad when it prevents you from disciplining your children. So David's adultery and murder prevented him from, I mean, Adonijah in 1 Kings 1, it says that Adonijah had never been disciplined. He was a horrible man. I mean, can you imagine that? A horrible man grows up, and that's probably part of why he was horrible. His dad never disciplined him. So when they're going to go to battle, and I'm getting to a point with this. Let's see how much time I have. They're going to go to battle, and what does David say about Absalom to Joab? He's just a boy. He's a little boy. I'm like, rapist, murderer, stole the throne from you, stole your harem, raped your wives on the rooftop for everyone to see. I mean, he's this, Absalom was a horribly evil man. Stole the hearts of the people from David. Well, I wish David was here. I wish my father was here. He's just too busy, but I'm here for you. And steals all their hearts like that. Just a really evil man. They're gonna go to battle and David tells Job, he's just a little boy, go easy on him. You know, don't spank him, don't hurt him too much. Well, Joab saw through it, and so he killed Absalom because he knew there'd never be peace in the kingdom as long as Absalom was alive. So then when David gets the news that Absalom has died, how does David respond? Oh, Absalom, Absalom. Just non-ending, and where was he? He's over the entrance to the city, sobbing like this, so that all the people come back victoriously from battle, and they hear David, and what? All of their rejoicing has turned to mourning or sadness, because of the way David's acting. Now, for all of Joab's weaknesses, I mean, he's this great, violent, ruthless general. He was willing to murder Uriah for David, so Joab was not a good man. But when David would not pick himself up off the ground, And I think David was in sin. His sentimentality was sinful. Joab came to David and said, you better get going. Or actually turn to him. We'll close this. Turn to 2 Samuel. I think it's around 8, 17, or 18. I might be wrong. What? 19. OK, turn to 2 Samuel 19. Thank you, Pastor Nathan. This is a good moment and a good example of what we might have to do with people when they won't pick themselves up. We'll start at verse 1, 2 Samuel 19 verse 1. It was told to Joab, behold the king is weeping and mourning for Absalom. Verse 2, so the victory that day was turned into mourning for all the people, for the people heard that day that the king is grieving for his son. And the people stole into the city that day. So they came in quietly, as people steal in, who were ashamed when they flee in battle. So they come in quietly, all the joy torn to mourning. Verse 4, the king covered his face, and the king cried with a loud voice, oh, my son Absalom, oh, Absalom, my son, my son Absalom. OK, this is it. Verse 5, Joab came into the house to the king, to David, and said, You have today covered with shame the faces of all your servants who have this day saved your life and the lives of your sons and your daughters and the lives of your, basically you have shamed the men who fought for you in battle, saved your family members, saved your nation for you. You have shamed them, verse six, Because you love those who hate you referring to absalom and you hate those who love you referring to the army of judah For you have made it because if you remember the battle was against the arm david's army against the army of judah So david's men were fighting the army of israel or the army of judah against the army of israel because absalom had taken over israel And so david's men are fighting his own nation So he says, you've made it clear today that commanders and servants are nothing to you. For today, I know that if Absalom were alive and all of us were dead today, then you would be pleased. And then this is at verse seven. Now, therefore, arise, go out, and speak kindly to your servants. For I swear by the Lord, if you do not go, not a man will stay with you this night. And this will be worse for you than all the evil that has come upon you from your youth until now. So for all of Joab's faults, he was right here. Sometimes when people won't pick themselves up, you need to tell them you have a family, you have a marriage, you have children that are counting on you. Your job is counting on you. Do you want to keep your job? You have a church family that needs you. You've got to get up and go back to church. You need to go back to your family. You've mourned long enough. You've been broke. If you're really convicted, pick yourself up and go take care of your wife. Go take care of your husband. Go take care of your children. Go take care of your home so that you don't lose them. Jake. Sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. Is this sort of like, like David disgraced the armies that fought for him. Is this sort of like, you're kind of disgracing the gospel because you're not embracing the grace and the forgiveness that is available to you. It's like you're just dragging this on and on and on and on and on. Is that sort of your point? Okay. The gospel, this is so important. You might write this down. The gospel doesn't produce self-pity. The gospel doesn't make people feel sorry for themselves. The gospel makes people say, okay, I'm forgiven. I will be a changed person. I will go love my wife. The gospel has changed me. I will go submit to my husband now. The gospel has changed me. I will go serve my family. I will go obey my parents. The gospel doesn't make us go. I mean, I don't want to sound insensitive, but people who are changed by the gospel and repentant, they say, I'm going to go out and be a different person now. And so look at verse eight. The king, this worked. It worked. The king arose. He took his seat. He went back to being king. And the people were told, behold, the king is sitting in the gate. And all the people came before the king. So did Joab save the day? He did. He came and he gave David a swift, hard kick in the butt. And David got up and went back to being king. And I just think you've got to get up and go back to being a husband or wife or father or mother or obedient son or daughter if you're really sorry. You don't sit there in your room mourning and crying all day and saying, oh, I'm such a horrible person. If you really think you're a horrible person, you say, I will change and be different and love and serve and grow through this. You don't wallow in self-pity. I just want to capitalize. Jake brought up a really, really good point. I appreciate that. I might steal that from you in counseling with the self-pity, because when somebody is in self-pity, it's another form of pride. It is. It's looking to self, which is, this is what got us into the problem to begin with. It's a perpetual, vicious cycle where we keep going back and back and back. Jeff Musgraves, in his book, Living the Exchange, made the analogy of you have a choice. You have faith, feeling, and facts. Um, faith will always follow the facts, which is truth. But if we go by our feelings, then it's according to what, how, what our perception is. But with, like you said, the gospel restores, it takes faith, even if we don't feel like we're worthy. If Christ made us worthy and has forgiven us, we step out on faith. And God responds to that by giving us more grace to continue in that walk. So that was a really good point that you and Jake brought up. Want to capitalize on that? And I'll close with this, but just picture this. If I mistreat Katie, which has definitely happened before, and I'm acting like I'm really grieved about how much I've mistreated Katie, so I mope around my house. That's selfish. That's not repentant. I'm feeling sorry for myself. If I'm really broken over how I treated Katie, I'm gonna go out and love her and serve her, right? I'm not gonna sit around feeling sorry for myself. So the gospel does not produce self-pity. It produces brokenness and repentance, but not wallowing like that. Okay, I went a little bit over. I appreciate you guys letting me do so. So I'm going to go ahead and close us in prayer. But if you have questions or thoughts, bring them back next time. I think this is a beneficial conversation that I'd like to believe the Lord led us to have this morning. Father, I thank you for this time. I thank you for the great high priest we have in Christ as he is our wonderful counselor. Think about the language in Isaiah 9 about him being wonderful counselor, mighty God. And so I pray that we would be wonderful counselors to each other and to ourselves. and help us to know how to rightly divide your word and bring it to bear on counseling situations, and how best to deal with people when they're convicted or when they're unconvicted, to see repentance and to provide the encouragement that people need when they are broken, and to provide the conviction when they're unconvicted. Thank you for this time, Lord. Be with everyone in the fellowship and prepare our hearts for the worship service, and we ask all this in Jesus' name. Amen. Thanks for your patience. You're dismissed, you guys.