Well, welcome everyone. My name is Travis Allen, and I'm here with Pastor Don Green to talk about the recent decision in the California Supreme Court on Gay Marriage. I work with Don in two realms, vocational ministry here at Grace to You, and local church ministry in the Grace Life Fellowship Group at Grace Community Church, Sun Valley, California. Don's no stranger to most of you, but there may be some listening who'd like to know his background. Don was a litigation attorney in Chicago for nine years. 1986 to 1995, and then he left his law practice to attend the Master's Seminary, and he completed two degrees there, with honors I might add. He is an ordained elder at Grace Community Church, and he's the Managing Director of Grace2U. He has the pleasure of sharing preaching and pastoral duties with Phil Johnson and Grace Life. It's a group of more than 500 adults. And most importantly, he's the husband of Nancy Green and father to six children. Don, like many listeners, I woke up and checked the internet news and saw the decision from the California State Supreme Court on gay marriage. And I'm no legal expert, but you're pretty close. What's going on here? Well, Travis, the court was dealing with a law that the California voters had actually approved back in 2000, if I remember correctly, where by a majority of 61 percent, California voters said that they wanted to define marriage as a union between a man and a woman. and in the subsequent litigation and different ways that the homosexual community went about trying to challenge that, the case landed in the lap of the Supreme Court, and by a 4-3 vote, they overruled that law that the California voters had voted in. and said that homosexuals have a right to the institution of marriage just as male and females do. And so it's a landmark ruling, really, the only other state in the country that's gone this far so far as Massachusetts. And the California courts have a particular kind of influence due to the size of the state, and it creates pressure in other jurisdictions to follow suit. And so this is just a really important decision that goes to the fundamental building blocks of society and how we define the very basic institutions upon which society is built. So it's an important decision that requires good thinking on the part of Christians in order to respond to it properly. As I've been reading about this, and again, I'm no legal expert, but they seem to keep pointing out that there are some differences that the California State Supreme Court, they went beyond the Massachusetts ruling. What kinds of things are involved there, do you know? Well, from what I'm told, Travis, the court defined marriage as a fundamental right that cannot be taken away from citizens. but yet they don't really define what marriage is. And so it gives the people who claim that they have a sexual orientation toward homosexuality a fundamental right that they're entitled to this institution of marriage that they never had before, and any law that would restrict that would be subject to a strict judicial scrutiny, and therefore would be much more difficult to uphold if these things are challenged again in the future. And so it expands the protections available to homosexuals and expands their rights to an institution, apparently without ever really getting around to defining what marriage really constitutes. And that's one of the interesting things about it. As people are going about trying to define marriage, and from a biblical perspective, the question that never seems to get asked is, where did marriage come from? Whose institution is it? The Bible makes it clear that marriage is God's institution. God established marriage back before the fall in Genesis chapter 2, when He brought Eve to Adam, and the two of them became one flesh. And that is the biblical basis for marriage, that is where marriage comes from. And we as the creatures do not have the right to redefine the creators. institution. We can do whatever else we want in some ways, but when it comes to what God has given, we're not at liberty to change it, and that's where the fundamental clash between a biblical worldview and what the court has done comes into play. Yeah. The other thing is just on, it seems they defined sexual orientation, kind of tried to compare it or make it on the same level as race discrimination. Yes, one of the things that I've seen in the news coverage that's come out is that there's a comparison made to when the California Supreme Court overturned a ban on interracial marriage and trying to draw a parallel between the two. But there's such an obvious difference between the two to any fair-minded person who thinks about it. You know, race is something that is inherited from your parents. It's not something that you can truly do anything about. And nor should you. But with homosexuality, we're talking about behavior. And if we're going to define these classifications on the basis of behavior and human desires, then there's really nothing to keep us from expanding those definitions on an ever-increasing scale. What is to keep us from defining marriage to include rights as a polygamist, multiple marriage partners? or to expand it to include incest, if that's what consenting adults want. Or even to get particularly crass, but this is where the logic leads us, there is nothing inherent in the logic about this that would prohibit even bestiality. from becoming something that would become a protected right, because there is no basis other than the opinions of men and the particular desires of the litigants in the court case that's before the judge to determine what's right and wrong. This is the inevitable result of abandoning the law of God as the standard by which we judge these things. We are left with the opinions of men, One opinion is as good as another on that level, and then the most debased desires, even if they're not contemplated now in this particular decision, the most based desires ultimately come to have equal weight and equal authority to be asserted. when we've abandoned the law of God and His definitions of what is righteous, what the definition of marriage is, and so forth. So we've really pressed a fault line in our society with this decision by pointing out and bringing to the surface how serious the consequences are and how far-reaching the consequences are when we turn away from the law of God and turn away from His Word to our own devices. Yeah, it's interesting how they use language. On the one hand, with God's language, marriage, they want to dismiss that, they want to untether that from the actual meaning. But then when it comes to their language in a decision like this, language becomes very important. It has a lot of implications. Yeah, they kind of choose their spot. Whenever it's convenient to their argument, they want to talk strict definitional terms and be precise, which the court's decision, give them credit, you know, 121 pages, I think, from the majority opinion. I was holding it in my hands just before we came down. So that speaks of a great level of precision, but to get to the basic definitions of the terms that are involved so that we can actually frame this discussion in a meaningful way, apparently they were conveniently careless there. Do you see concern for Christians in the future about speaking against homosexuality, those kinds of things? Because they're tying this to race. I mean, if you try to do race discrimination, you could be brought up on legal charges. Well, Travis, no doubt that we've already seen this happening in the world. If you talk to any of our friends in Great Britain, they are already dealing with this on a very substantial level. Their government is a few years ahead of ours in terms of going not only beyond giving rights for homosexuals, but actually prohibiting others from speaking out against it. And it's becoming a matter of hate speech, as they define it. And our Christian brethren over there are dealing with increasing efforts to restrict their speech so that they can't even speak what the Bible says about this without being prosecuted for criminal activity, simply because they want to speak the Word of God. And so there's no question here that the battle lines are being drawn, and with the way the homosexual community has approached their whole agenda, You can count on the fact that they're not going to stop with simply getting this right to marriage, and then go away and live peaceable lives. They're going to want to continue this, and not only have rights for themselves, but silence those who would oppose them. This is the pattern that we have seen in Europe, and if we continue on this path in America, it is going to become the path that we ourselves will have to face and deal with. And so the battle lines are really drawn here, Travis, in a way that many people, even Christians, would find disturbing. Yeah, disturbing, right. We're thinking about things like fines, jail time, who knows? But the horizon looks pretty dark and ominous, you know, and for many Christians, I think this could sound pretty frightening. How do we respond to this? What do we do? Well, Travis, let me say first of all that I'm a husband and I'm a father in this society as well. And, like many people of my age, where we have teenagers and they're growing up, or younger children and they're growing up, you think ahead, and you say, what's the society going to be like for my children? This is foreign to my experience when I was a child, when I was growing up, and the whole dynamic is being changed. And so it affects what our children are taught in school. You know, it's very difficult for a child to understand that something that our government permits and affirms would actually be wrong. And so the consequences for Christians who are trying to raise their children in this environment are significant, and they're something that I feel on a personal level myself, because I want my children to be able to grow up and to function in a society that honors God. Decisions like this make you realize that that may not be the reality that they actually get to enjoy. There's a lot to be said about how we respond to that, Travis. Yeah, and as a former attorney, I would think that things like this got to really get under your skin. Well, I do view it from two different perspectives. And as an attorney, I'm appalled that a court would be so judicially active, would be such an activist court, that it would overturn the expressed will of the populace, the expressed will of the electorate, on such a fundamental matter, and basically by one vote, a four to three vote, basically redefine the whole nature of the way society is supposed to operate and what our fundamental things are going to be as we live life in our family institutions, and so forth. And I just kind of want to scratch my head, if not bang it against the wall and say, who do these guys think they are? you know, that they take the authority that's been given to them and overturn the wills of tens of millions of people that have been expressed at the ballot box. That is not democracy, that is judicial activism that's being employed by those who cannot achieve their societal goals through legislative means, because there isn't public support to do it, and so on, from a legal basis and from a political basis, which I was a political science major in my undergraduate days, and so this pushes all of my buttons, so to speak. It's just very disturbing to see the process that our founding fathers established to be abused in such a way that no one could have planned from the beginning. This is judicial activism run amok. But at the same time, Travis, I have to get beyond my personal feelings as a father, and I have to get beyond my professional feelings as an attorney, at least as a retired attorney, and come to the only perspective that really matters, and that is to view this matter from a biblical perspective, from the perspective of what the Bible says. And if I'm not mistaken, I'm guessing that's where you really want to take the rest of this discussion. Yeah, Don, I do want to find out about a different side of you. I know you have the background as an attorney, but how do you think about this as a pastor? Well, Travis, as a pastor, this whole thing just breaks my heart on so many different levels. The thing that occurs to me that I've seen in my ministry and also from things that you and I have talked about as you've been involved in your own ministry is that the activists that we see on TV are only a very small portion of the greater homosexual community. I've counseled people dealing with homosexual actions and desires in my office, and I know, Travis, that they are plagued with guilt They feel like they're in bondage to these desires that they would like to get rid of, but they just can't seem to be released from. Many of them are dealing with ugly physical consequences due to the nature of homosexual sin. And so these are people, Travis, that are suffering. The homosexuals that we encounter in ministry are not the aggressive people that we see on TV. These are people who are brokenhearted. people that want to overcome sin, people that feel the guilt that sin brings on all of us, and they want to find relief. They want to be free from that which they know is wrong and that which is causing them harm, but they find themselves tied up with things that they can't get rid of, some of them. And this is what makes me angry with, hopefully, a righteous anger. Some of them have been simply taken advantage of by other people who only wanted to gratify their own depraved lusts, and so they take advantage of weaker, younger people. as a means of just fulfilling their own lustful rampage. And so when I talk during the course of this interview about homosexuals and the activists, know that there's a sharp distinction in my mind between the activists and dealing with the legal side of things and responding to their initiatives, and the great compassion that I feel for people who are in sin and who are suffering as a result of it and don't know where to turn. Those people I want to reach out to with a word of compassion and with the grace of Christ expressed in the gospel. And so there's kind of two different audiences that we're addressing. The rebel, hard side that is just actively opposed to everything that God stands for, and then the much greater, bigger group that feel the weight of the consequences of this sin that never get reported in the media, but are the reality that hangs over their life with such a heavy air. And so that's a key distinction in my mind. That is such an important distinction to make, and it really should stir our hearts toward compassion. And when we have people like that who struggle with that sin in our families, in our friends, people that we know who are hurting from these things. Very easy to see it and react compassionately, but you know, in this media-saturated culture, sometimes our minds can be dominated by the perception rather than the reality. I mean, help us work through that. Speak to that portion. Well, I think what we have to do here, Travis, at a time like this, is when we're seeing a decision, we're seeing the news coverage, we see it on the Internet, and we see homosexuals rejoicing, the mayor of San Francisco said words to the effect of, it doesn't matter if you like it or not, this is what's coming. And so you have these aggressive people who are pushing very hard against everything that you hold dear and the things that we've learned from the Word of God over the years. But what we have to do in the face of that is step back, Travis. We've got to step back from the news coverage. We've got to step back from the emotion of the moment, take our breath, and ask ourselves this question, what is it? that we believe about the God of the Bible. Because that question and the answer to that question is what's going to determine how we respond to it. It all starts with our view of God and our view of the Bible, and we have to come back to what the Bible says in order to be able to respond to this properly. People who do see those stories on the Internet, the first thing they think about, and I'm talking about Christians now, The first thing they think about about what does God in the Bible say is they say God condemns homosexuality and the Bible condemns it and they run to political action because they want to fight against a force that comes in society. What kind of a truth about God? I mean, fill that in. There's more to God than just being against homosexuality. Well, that's exactly right, Travis, and there's just so much. But the starting point, it seems to me, where we really have to go is we have to start with God's sovereignty. We have to start with the fact that God is a sovereign God. this universe exists, the world exists, all people exist, and you and I exist by the sovereign pleasure of a holy God. And God is the one who spoke the universe into existence. The first two chapters of Genesis teach us that very clearly. And God is almighty. God is all-powerful. And the Bible says that He works all things. after the counsel of His will." You can see that in Ephesians 1, verse 11, where the Apostle Paul is praising God, and he praises God for many things, one of which is the fact that God works all things after the counsel of His own will. And there's many other passages in the Bible that support that thought. But basically, Travis, the idea is this. is that God is sovereignly at work in absolutely everything that happens in His creation, and He directs every creature and every event to accomplish the purposes that He has established. He started this universe, He sustains this universe, and He is directing it to achieve the purpose for which He has established. And so that means that everything that happens, whether it is good or bad, whether it is holy or sinful, in one way or another, God is working through all of those things to accomplish His will. And four justices on the California Supreme Court who will take their last breath within the next 50 years at an absolute maximum, whose breath is in their nostrils. Travis, those four justices do not have it in their power to thwart the sovereign will of God. And so we come back to God's sovereignty, and we rest in His sovereignty, and we say, this is where my anchor is, this is where my hope is. Even though things seem to be going astray, and things seem to be going haywire in the world around me as I see it, I step back, I take a breath, I say, what does the Bible say? The Bible declares God to be sovereign over all things. And we say, okay, God is still at work here, even though this seems to be going a direction different than what I would choose it to do. The concept of God's sovereignty is a real comfort when you look at wicked men and their schemes and what they continue to do to try to thumb their nose at His sovereignty. We can rest assured that He's going to prevail in the end. But what's more difficult about that doctrine is his providence and how he works that out and uses even the rebellion of sinful men to his purposes. How does that work out with his will? I mean, he doesn't want to see this happen, and yet he plans it? How does that work? Well, that's a great question, Travis. And I think one of the clearest places in Scriptures to go to think about this is in the book of Acts, chapter 2, verse 23, when Peter was talking about the crucifixion of Christ. And he spoke to the men who crucified Christ, and he said that Christ was delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God. God had determined before the foundation of the world that Christ would be crucified for the sins of His people, and through that crucifixion achieve their redemption and achieve their forgiveness of sins. And so God had a predetermined plan that He was working out, and yet somehow in the magnificence of His strength and His might and His power, those men were acting on their own wicked impulses and by their own wicked designs when they crucified Christ. They knew nothing about God's holy plan, God's sovereign plan. They just wanted to kill and silence this man who was a threat to their religious system. But God was using their wickedness to achieve His holy purposes. And so, somehow, in the matchless greatness of God, He works through even the wicked things that sinners do in order to achieve His purposes. You can see this also in the book of Genesis, in the life of Joseph. where Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery, put him in a pit, and slave traders came and carried him away into Egypt. And after the long history of Joseph's life, where he spent time in prison and suffered greatly, and his brothers knew nothing about it and had no plans about it, Ultimately, at the end of his life, he was reunited with his brothers, and he said to them, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good to bring about the present result, where Joseph was installed as one of the number two leaders in the great country of Egypt at the time. And so God somehow uses even the wicked actions of men who know nothing about His will to achieve His purposes. And so there's a distinction that theologians talk about, God's moral will, where He has revealed what righteous conduct is. And that is His will for us to do. But when we break His moral will, we have not thwarted the secret will that God has where He's working all things according to His purposes. And so the greatness of His sovereign plan includes even the wicked things that men do, and He uses both good things and bad things to accomplish His purposes, which are always holy. Yeah, that's right. You know, I think about that just in practical terms. You think about Jesus Christ and our redemption. That's murder. That's a miscarriage of justice that God used. Think about Joseph. There's deception, cruelty, slavery. All those things you see, you think about our current situation, homosexuality, and the continual, like you call it, activist judges and things like that. He uses all that for his purposes. That's an amazing thought. But then if we just keep it in the theoretical level, in the thought level, that's one thing, and we can be amazed by that, but then how do we actually, how does that impact our lives? How do we actually live that out? Well, Travis, that's one of the things that I was so happy to have the opportunity to talk about here. It starts with us recognizing that there is a legitimate, there is a sense of fear, I should say, that comes up and a sense of uncertainty when we start getting wrapped up in the news stories and we kind of lose our biblical focus on it. But what we have to do is we've got to come back to this recognition of the sovereignty of God and anchor our thoughts and our hope in that and say, okay, God is in control here. Now what does that mean for me? And how do I respond to that? And the first thing that I would say, since we kind of talked about the parental fears and the uncertainties and the discomfort that comes from seeing a lifestyle we don't approve of being affirmed by the highest court in one of the most influential states in the Union, We have to come back and say, but how do I live my life? And this is where I really want to focus for a few moments anyway, Travis, is to state most clearly and most emphatically to anyone that would hear this message and hear this interview, is that the changes in society and the sins of other men and their aggression and the wicked acts of sinners Do not keep yourself from living a godly life, from you living a life that is pleasing to God. There is nothing about living in a sinful environment that intrinsically means that you and your children cannot live a righteous life. If you think about it, the Lord Jesus Christ was holy, He was sinless, He lived an absolutely perfect life, both inwardly and outwardly, and yet He was living in the midst of sinners. He was living under the rule of the Romans, which was pagan and godless, as far as the God of the Bible is concerned, and yet He lived a perfect life in the midst of that. And so it shows that our ability to live righteously is not undermined, it is not taken away by the fact that there is sin going on around us. And maybe on a more personal level, in a different way, you can think about the story of Ruth and Boaz in the book of Ruth. where they were living in the time of the judges. The Bible says that during that time, men did whatever was right in their own eyes. It sounds exactly like today, Travis. You have men who are acting according to their own wills without regard to law or anything like that. And yet here are Ruth and Boaz living godly lives, quiet lives, in the midst of all of that that is around them. And as you read the story, you see that they engage in a pristine relationship as they come to know each other in the midst of this godless society. They are married together, and the ultimate impact of their life was their marriage established the line of King David of Israel. And ultimately, the line of Jesus Christ, the Messiah, they were part of His lineage. And so, even in the worst of situations, the Bible shows us that godly people can live godly lives, even though the society is threatening around them. And what that gives us, Travis, is that gives us courage, and that gives us the strength to say, I can still do what God has called me to do in my life. even though the society seems to be crumbling all around me. And so the message is that you trust God's sovereignty, you understand that and believe it, and then you say, in light of that sovereignty, I'm going to live a godly life myself, no matter what the men around me do. Yeah, that's an amazing story of Ruth and Boaz. You know, if you were to live in their day and watch that whole scene unfold, you'd see that that relationship, on a human level or from a human perspective, didn't seem to make a dent in the political structures at all. And yet, what eternal impact that whole situation had. Yeah, that's exactly right, Travis. Even the end of the book of Ruth talks about subsequent generations, three or four generations, up to the line of David, and then continues on, and the implications and the ramifications of their life continue to this day. We're talking about them three, four thousand years after the fact, and no one's really remembering any of the political leaders and the strong people that were there at the time. And that teaches us, Travis, and I'm so glad you brought out that point. It just teaches us to realize that we have to take a long-term perspective. We have to take an eternal perspective on these things. And the things that seem important and the people that seem prominent today, listen, in God's perspective and in God's economy, what is important and who's going to have the lasting impact is measured by much different standards. And so we can't look at today's news and determine the direction that God is going with anything that's happening in the world, and we can't look at today's news and say, what's going to have a lasting impact here? The Christians that hear this interview should realize that their job is to focus on living a godly life themselves, and then just trust God to work that out. Because ultimately, the only thing that's going to matter for us is when we stand before God and give account to Him for the way that we've lived our lives, none of this other stuff is going to matter. And if we've lived a godly life and we've trusted Christ and we've sought to honor Him with our life, then in that day, the only day that matters, the only words that are going to matter is to hear our Lord and Savior say, �Well done, thou good and faithful servant. Enter into the joy of thy master.� And at that moment, all of this other stuff with the California Supreme Court and homosexual marriage and all of that, none of that is going to be significant, because we're going to enjoy the approval of our Master as He welcomes us into His eternal presence. And we have to keep that perspective in mind. We have to keep the destination of our lives in mind, where we are going. We have to keep that in mind if we're going to have a proper perspective on how to live today. Amen. That's a good word. One thing that comes to mind as I'm thinking about that, okay, so we think about the sovereignty of God, His providence, we think about the long view of life, but what do we do in the short term? I mean, if a petition comes around to your door about this, you know, making an amendment to our Constitution to try to deal with the judicial decision, what do we do? Do we sign the petition? Do we not vote? How does that all work? Well, the political solution is where so many Christians want to go, and it tends to be Christians, I think, that perhaps haven't thought through as well as they could the biblical teaching on the sovereignty of God. I'm not picking a fight with those people, but here's what I would say about the political solution. Listen. If somebody came to me with a petition saying, will you support an amendment to ban homosexual marriage in the state of California, I'd be happy to sign that on that level, in terms of lending my signature to that particular document. But when we expand beyond that and think about broader issues, we have to be very careful and even suspicious of trying to make political solutions to these kinds of moral problems in our society. First of all, as a political solution, invariably what happens, even good pastors will say that we should set aside our differences with other religious groups so that we can work toward a common moral goal. And so you'll hear evangelical pastors say, in some of their weaker moments, that it's okay to set aside our doctrinal differences with Catholics, for example, because they share our perspective on these issues, and so let's work together for a common political goal. Well, my response to that is that that's forgetting what's ultimately important. That's failing to take into account what is of eternal significance. The Bible says that we're not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers. We're not supposed to join forces together with them. And the problem with those joint political actions is, Travis, is that it forces us to set aside the Gospel. If I'm working alongside a Catholic for a common political goal, I have to silence the Gospel in order to keep that political goal front and center. I don't have the liberty anymore to look that Catholic in the eye and say, you know what, your good works and all of your rituals aren't going to get you to heaven. I can't say that, because that's going to split our political alliance. And so that leaves me in a position of compromising the Gospel for the sake of a political end. And so we can't align ourselves with unbelievers to accomplish these things. We have to keep the Gospel front and center. That is our great commission, to go and make disciples. not to change the political landscape of the world. And the political landscape, let's face it, is even if I succeeded in keeping it the way God's righteous law would require it to be all the days of my life, that would be subject to be taken away the moment I died. There is no lasting political solution that we can affect through political means. We need Christ to return and institute righteousness by His own power. And we have to remember what Christ said Long ago, from the very beginning, Jesus said, �My kingdom is not of this world.� And so we have to understand that as Christians, we are living for a different realm, a spiritual realm. We're living for a world yet to come. And so setbacks in this world are of comparatively minor consequence, because this isn't what we're living for anyway. Yeah, that's right. The ecumenical movement has really embraced that whole philosophy of setting aside doctrinal differences to join forces against a political or social issue. And, you know, I listen to some of those debates, I listen to them speak, and what I find is even though they want to define themselves as Christians, they abandon Christian argumentation when they're making their argument before unbelievers. They enter into the unbelievers world and try to argue them out of it how does that work that's the other part of the problem and when you hear these conservative voices arguing against gay marriage they cannot preserve their political alliance and simultaneously make a biblical argument against it and say god condemns this and therefore it is wrong they can't argue that way in the political realm and so what they're left with is setting forth their opinion against another man's opinion, and so the argument becomes, you know, this is the way society has been structured for so many years, and this has a harmful impact on children, and so forth. But the question ultimately becomes, what makes your opinion any better than mine? If I'm a homosexual and I'm arguing the case, let's say this is just your opinion against mine, this is your desire against mine, and we've lost the whole concept of ultimate authority. And so it just becomes one man's opinion set up against another, and you lose the argument on that grounds. What the Christian has to do, even if it's not politically expedient, what the Christian has to do is make a transcendent biblical argument based on the revelation of God to show that this is wrong. We have to go back to, who is the authority here? What is the authority here? And the authority is the Word of God that God has spoken in the Bible, in the 66 books of the Bible. This is where we find ultimate truth. This is where we find ultimate authority. And you, my friend, my disagreeing homosexual friend, or my disagreeing friend with different sinful problems, your responsibility is to repent and to come under the authority of the Word of God. That is the only way that this argument can actually be advanced. Otherwise, if it's just man's opinion against man, we're left with a result that can only be a competition of opinions, and one opinion is equally valid as another, and that's a guaranteed loss. If you're trying to uphold a Biblical view on these issues, a Biblical view of marriage, you can't set aside the Bible and simultaneously uphold a Biblical view of marriage. Those two things don't go together. A Biblical view of marriage comes from the Bible, and if you set aside the Bible, you sacrifice the institution before you've even begun the argument. Yeah, God doesn't enter into the world of man and offer his ideas as competing against man's ideas at all. He calls men to repent and conform to his ideas. In fact, he put his law into our hearts. He gave us a conscience that responds to that law, accuses us or defends us. That just brings up another issue here. Is that whole evangelistic issue? It seems really lost when you stick to a political approach. Well, absolutely, Travis. You're exactly right. And what you're alluding to is the fact that if we try to take a political approach to this problem and try to affect change, or to overturn this decision purely through political means. Speaking as Christians now, I'm speaking to Christians and trying to help Christians think biblically. I'm not trying to define what a good political strategy is here. What we have to remember as Christians is we've got to go back to what Jesus said. The great commission is to go and make disciples of Christ, teaching them to obey all that He's commanded. That is our mission. And that means that we take the message of salvation, we proclaim Christ crucified, Christ resurrected as the only way to God. We proclaim that to sinners. And that means that people who are lost are our mission field. Those are the people that we are to go and win to God's kingdom through a proper proclamation of the gospel. By contrast, the political approach turns those people, rather than being people to be won, they turn them into political enemies, political opponents. They become someone to conquer and silence, rather than people to win. And for the Christian, that is absolutely unthinkable. The political approach to this situation with homosexual marriage makes homosexuals the enemy, makes them a foe to be defeated rather than a lost soul to be won. And as Christians, we can't have it both ways. We can't treat them as political enemies and also as our mission field. We have to choose one or the other. And to be faithful to Christ, To be faithful to the one whom the Apostle Paul said, Christ Jesus came into this world to save sinners, of whom I am foremost. To be faithful to the message and the mission and the commission of Christ, we have to say, these people are people to be won, and I want to reach them with the Gospel, I want to evangelize them in a way that wins them to God, rather than what drives them away through my political activism. We simply can't have it both ways, and an issue like this in a time like this, Travis, makes us realize the invisible nature of the kingdom for which we're living. We're not living for this world. We're pursuing a kingdom that is invisible. We're pursuing souls to be saved for the sake and the glory of Christ, and we can't have it both ways. And so if And if this Supreme Court ruling makes that more clear in our thinking and makes us more committed to evangelism, because we see we can't have it both ways, then that would be one of the good purposes that God would bring out. He would purify the motivation of the church for spiritual purposes, for building up the church of Christ, rather than achieving a political solution that's only fragile and is only going to last as long as the next election anyway. Let's build our lives toward those things that are eternal, that cannot be taken away, that God has promised to bless, rather than the political solutions that are doomed to ultimate failure in a lost and sinful and fallen world. Yeah, that's true. That's very easy to lose. When you do think about all the political solutions to this, it's very easy to lose that perspective. I've talked to people and been pretty close friends with people who have struggled with this, struggled with homosexuality. They've lived in that lifestyle for a time. And one of the things that they've noticed with Christians who jump into the political solutions, and even as they've walked into churches, people who aren't even actively political, they wonder why it is that Christians focus all their attention on homosexuality when they ignore people who are getting divorced. They ignore people who are filled with pride or focused on money or things like that. They seem to minimize their own sins and be blind to those things. It's that whole log in the eye thing. And then they elevate homosexuality as the one thing that they just want to beat with a stick. You know, we need to be fair to our friends in the homosexual community and say, guilty as charged. That's a legitimate criticism that goes to the failure of Christians, not to the failure of the Word of God. And you alluded to that passage in Matthew chapter 7, where Jesus said, why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? He says, before you start worrying about the sins of other people, you need to take a good, long, hard look at yourself. And it's so easy for us to jump and criticize the sins of others and condemn them before we've even thought about our own lives before a holy God and we ignore our own sins. And Travis, what we all need to go back to, you and me, starting with you and me, is that we have to remember that we ourselves are sinners. We're in need of Christ just as much as any homosexual is or anything like any other sin that you could think of. The Bible says that there is not one who does good. There is not even one. This is Romans 3. There is no one who seeks after good. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. And the exhortation and even the rebuke that I would lay out before Christian people is to remember that we ourselves are fallen, and that we ourselves are sinners in need of redemption from Christ. And we are not morally superior to homosexuals, but we are sinners in need of Christ, and that is the starting point. And we have to come to grips with the fact that we still deal with our own sinful desires, our own sinful words, our own sinful actions, and that while we may not be guilty of the sin of homosexuality, we're guilty of our own sins that are just as offensive to a holy God. Even though we may not have committed the sin of homosexuality ourselves, you can flip that around and say, you know what? My homosexual friend hasn't done my sins either. And so we are equally ruined, and we are equally in need of Christ. And so there is no room for that kind of hypocrisy. We have to take the totality of what God says about the totality of the sinfulness of man and apply that to ourselves first and say, you know what, I've got to deal with my own sin. And when we do that, and when we deal with sin and we confess our sins and deal with it, then we're in a position to go to others who are in different kinds of sin, but we go to them in humility and we go to them with compassion, saying, you're just like I am. You're a lost sinner. You're in need of Christ. just like I did, and that changes the whole dynamic rather than creating an impression that we're somehow morally superior to those who've sinned in ways that are different from the way that we ourselves have sinned. Yeah, that was a huge point, what you just said about, like Jesus says, after we've removed that log, then we are able to see more clearly to help other people with their sin. But we're still helping people with their sin. There's a growing segment within evangelicalism that's starting to minimize the sin of homosexuality and say that really the Bible doesn't speak clearly on this issue, that really it's kind of, someone even said, declare a five-year moratorium on this issue so we can think about it and stop with all the rhetoric against homosexuality. What do you think of that? Well, that's part of thinking clearly about this issue, as we talk about having compassion towards our friends who may be ensnared in a homosexual lifestyle. And Travis, I do want to say, you know, there are people who have dealt with this issue in our church. I've had them in my office, I've talked with them, I've counseled them, and I know the depth of the struggle. that they feel with those desires, even as they feel wretched about it, there's still that strange, powerful attraction that they have as they're trying to come to grips with what God would have them do with their lives. Yeah, sexual impulses and desires are some of the strongest desires that we have. Once you get into the homosexual realm, there seems to be a particular burning desire that comes that is just very overpowering. And so we speak with compassion toward those that are struggling with that and realize the difficulty of their struggle. At the same time, Travis, we have to realize that the Bible is clear in its condemnation of homosexuality. In the book of Leviticus, it says it is an abomination for a man to lie with a man as a man lies with a woman. It's condemned in Leviticus 18. The prophets condemned it in the book of Ezekiel, chapter 16. Even back in Genesis, the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was the sin of homosexuality. And then in the New Testament, as you go beyond the time of Christ, you see the Apostle Paul repeatedly saying that homosexuality is a sin, that homosexuals will not inherit the Kingdom of God in 1 Corinthians 6, and in other places as well. And so we have to be crystal clear and not confuse compassion with a clarity about what biblical revelation is. And God condemns homosexuality because it overturns His original fundamental design for human relationships, that design that pictures a man and a woman in Genesis 2, that design that uses marriage as a picture of the relationship of Christ to His church. And so homosexuality perverts and distorts all of that in so many different ways. And so the Bible is absolutely clear on this, and it's only by twisting the interpretation of Scriptures that you could come up with any other conclusion. I heard you mention the Old Testament, saying that was clear. I heard you mention some things that Paul wrote. But you know, there are some people who say, you know, Jesus never really spoke to this issue of homosexuality, and that's not really You know, if you're going to follow the way of Jesus, you're not going to condemn this sin, because we need to follow Him. He's the King of the Kingdom. We're members of His Kingdom. How do you respond to that? First of all, that's a false argument. I don't think it's really anything that anyone holds too sincerely. They're just trying to throw mud on the wall to see what will stick. Jesus in Matthew chapter 5 verse 17 said something that is clear enough to settle this issue. He said, don't think that I came to abolish the law or the prophets. I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. He came to uphold the law both through his teaching and through his righteous life, and his whole life was about upholding the law of God, which is found in the Old Testament. which was the governing rule of Jewish life at the time. Jesus said, I came to fulfill that and uphold it, not to abolish it. And he didn't have to repeat everything that was said in the Old Testament in order to affirm it. He affirmed the Old Testament as a collective body of revealed truth. He said, I affirm all of it. He said, not even a jot or tittle in the law can be broken. And so he's obviously affirming the totality of what had been revealed to the Old Testament patriarchs through Old Testament history and through the Old Testament prophets. The unified testimony of that is that homosexuality is a sin, and the only way that you could come up with anything different from the life of Jesus is if he had specifically contradicted that homosexual teaching that we find in the Old Testament, and that's the last thing he did. He made it clear that he was upholding the Old Testament law, and then he commissioned his apostles, and they went out and they carried the same exact message on this issue. There is a perfect continuity from the Old Testament through the life of Jesus and through the completion of New Testament revelation. There is no wiggle room in what the Bible says about that. I was just thinking as you were saying that, it's pretty strong language. We're often accused of using rhetoric or anti-homosexual rhetoric. Words like condemnation or abomination seem pretty inflammatory. Help us understand what those words really mean. What are homosexuals facing? And not just homosexuals, but any sinner, but what are we really facing? Well, that's a great question, Travis, and I like the fact that you said not just homosexuals, but who are we, what are the rest of us facing as we're living life? What is coming? And Travis, this is a question that not enough people ask as they pursue their desires and pursue their daily lives. We have to ask ourselves, what is the ultimate outcome of these things? Where is my life going? And if there was anything that I could plead with an unsaved person or with a homosexual who is uncertain about this, and suspicious even, of a Bible teacher talking in such terms as you mentioned, here's the question that I would plead with them to consider. Where is this all headed? The truth of the matter is that you and I will live our lives, maybe we'll live 40 years, maybe we'll live 80 years, it doesn't matter, but the end of that pathway, the end of our life, is going to be the reality of death. And the question is, what happens then? What happens to me when I die? What comes of my life then?" And there is this great, big, black unknown for everybody who rejects the revelation of the Bible. There is no way to know that question, and people run from that question. They do not want to talk this way because it is so frightening. But the Bible makes it very clear. Hebrews 9 verse 27 says, it is appointed for man to die once, and after this comes judgment. And the judgment comes from a holy God who has established His law, and we come before God and we face judgment for the fact that we have broken His laws. We have not done what He has told us to do. We have done what He has told us not to do, and we are sinners. And the Bible says if we've broken one of God's laws, we've broken them all. We're just sinners, and we're broken, and we're ruined. And we are under the wrath and judgment of God as the rightful punishment. that comes from being a lawbreaker. Breaking a law has consequence. Even in an earthly life, we understand that. If we break the traffic laws and we get caught, there's a fine to be paid. When we break God's eternal law, there is an eternal punishment to be paid, and God says He will vindicate His law. There will be eternal condemnation for people who die in their sins and have broken His law, and that is the ultimate outcome of these things. And that is why it is so important to contemplate what lies beyond and to say, what is the end of the road that I'm traveling on? I am going to die. The question, Travis, is am I ready for that death when it comes? Because it's going to come, whether it comes tonight when I'm driving home or whether it comes in 50 years. It's just a question of timing. The ultimate outcome is assured. And that is the question that people have to come to grips with. Yeah, that's exactly right, and it's a sobering reminder. All that's going on today, you know, whether it's something on the news, or whether it's something in our family situation, or whether it's something in this life, in our jobs, all of it's going to come to an end pretty quickly. Pretty quickly, and probably for a lot of people in a way that is unexpected. Those poor people in China who 50,000 people killed in an earthquake just going about their business. All of a sudden, an earthquake hits and they're in eternity before they know it. Same thing with the recent cyclone that hit the country of Myanmar. People die in car accidents you just don't know. And so we can't presume on how much time we're going to have, and even if we knew that we were going to have 50 years from now. The outcome is still the same. There is death, and then comes judgment. And, Travis, that is what makes the Gospel so urgent to every person, every man who could ever live. Listen, the reality of this is, and I know there's discussion about medical and genetic causes for homosexuality and all of that, but the reality of it is this. You don't have to be a homosexual to struggle against strong desires that are wrong. There's nothing unique about homosexuality that way. Heterosexuals deal with the same desires and have the same responsibility before God to control those desires and to live righteously. The message is, to homosexuals and other sinners alike, you are responsible for your actions before a holy God. God sees you. God knows everything about your life. He has set forth standards that you know in your heart you have broken. Your conscience condemns you for the things that you have done. And that is simply a reflection of the law of God written on your heart, indicating there's judgment coming, there's accountability coming for this, pay attention. And Travis, the words that I would say to our friends that are in those situations is, beloved, don't try to turn off that conscience. Listen, you are responsible for your actions, and the California Supreme Court cannot acquit you before the bar of God." And homosexuality is a sin. Many other things are sins, and sin brings God's judgment. And here's the question. He says, well, is that all you've got to say? Is it just the black thread of God's wrath hanging over my head that you're talking about? Well, listen, the whole point of the Gospel, I alluded to it earlier, the whole point of the Gospel is that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. God sent Jesus Christ into this world in order to provide a path of salvation, a path of deliverance from His coming judgment that you can enter into. You can be saved from your sins today. God has provided a means to change the eternal outcome of your life, and that is found through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. God has spared your life up to this point so that you could hear the Gospel. The fact that you are still living and breathing is a token of His grace to you. And it's giving you time to hear the Gospel and to deal with the reality of sin. Listen, judgment is coming, and you are going to die and face God's judgment. The question is, are you going to be ready for it? How can you be ready for it? And the news of the Gospel, the good news of the Gospel, is that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. God sent Him to the cross. so that at the cross he could bear in his body the wrath of God against every sinner who would ever repent of his sins and believe in Christ. That's why he's called the Savior. That's why he can deliver you from your sins, is because he paid the penalty for sins when he died on the cross. The Bible says that in his body he bore our sins on the tree. And it was there at the cross where your sins can be forgiven, where God poured out His punishment on sins, and Christ stood as a substitute for sinners, taking their punishment so that God could forgive them, having fulfilled His justice through the punishment of Christ, and therefore giving sinners who would repent and put their faith in Christ freedom and the forgiveness of sins. And the wonderful thing about it is, is that Christ who lived a perfect life, God says, I will look at you, if you put your faith in Christ, I will look at you as though you had lived the perfect righteousness of Christ yourself. The Bible says in 2 Corinthians 5, verse 21, He made him who knew no sin, talking about Christ, made him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf. as our substitute, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." It's the greatest of all transactions, your sin for Christ's righteousness. And what the Gospel says is, it declares the righteousness of Christ, it declares His death and resurrection as the payment for sin. And it comes to you and it says, you must repent of your sins and put your faith in Christ and trust Him for your salvation. And if you do, God will forgive all your sins, and without fail, and based on His own Word and His own oath and His own promise, forgive you of your sins and bring you into heaven when you die. And those of us that know Christ, my friend, those of us that know Christ know deep in our hearts with an absolute conviction that we could die right now. And all that would be would be the entranceway into heaven with Christ and with God our Savior. And my homosexual friend, my otherwise unsaved friend, that's our desire for you. That's why we put this interview together, was to communicate that message to you that you can have all of your sins forgiven through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. And for our Christian friends, Travis, we would say, you take heart in the sovereign plans of a good God who is your Heavenly Father. God's got this under control. I don't know what He's doing. I don't know what the outcome of these legal machinations are going to be, but I know this. I know that God, my Heavenly Father, holds the future in His hands, and He is working it to accomplish His good purposes. And in one way or another, God is going to work all things together for good to those who love Christ and are called according to His purpose. So the lines are pretty clear from this Supreme Court decision, Travis. The implications of this go everywhere, and when we think rightly about it, it points us back to the cross as the crucible in which all of eternity is going to be determined for every man, woman, and child who ever walks on the face of this earth. Amen. Travis, I would just like to close this time in prayer and commit those who hear this to our gracious Lord, if that would be okay with you. Hey, I don't mind. Go ahead. Our Father, we do just want to thank you for being sovereign and being great and being holy and high and exalted above all the heavens. Lord, we thank you that you are working all things after the counsel of your will. And we pray, Father, first of all for our Christian friends who perhaps are knocked off guard and perhaps a little bit concerned and uncertain about what the future of our society is going to be. Father, lift their eyes above. this life, and let them see life in the light of eternity, in light of your sovereignty, in light of your greatness, and in light of the Lord Jesus Christ, and say, whatever comes over these next few years, My life is in the hands of a holy God who loves me and is my Heavenly Father and has set His affection upon me. Father, strengthen these people. Give them grace and courage and confidence in Your good purposes in their lives, and that You will work out those purposes regardless of what happens in the world around us. Father, for our other friends, those who do not yet know Christ, we ask that you would bring the Gospel to them with great power. Father, that you would, first of all, convict them of their sin and help them to recognize the consequences of sin, that there is death and judgment that is coming. It's certain. We go to a cemetery anywhere in the world, Lord, and we see proof that this life ends, and then what happens? And Father, when that happens, Father, all of the temporary passing pleasures of sin are going to be meaningless, because we're going to be passing into the brink of the unknown if we don't know Christ. And for those, Father, we pray that they would see the light of the Gospel, they would see the glory of Christ, repent of their sins. Father, and put their faith in Christ, and that you would be swift to show your compassion upon sinners who turn to you. So, Father, we ask for these things, and for those that are struggling with these intense desires. that we've alluded to earlier, Father. Would you give them strength in the midst of their struggles, and would you help them to overcome those things, those that are Christians that are struggling with these issues? Father, would you please have grace upon them and help them to live righteously and have righteous desires, so that their lives could be free from that which would hold them in bondage, and that their lives would be pleasing to you, and that they could go about before you and before men with a clear conscience, knowing the reality of the forgiveness of sins and the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit who enables us to live the life that you would call us to live. So, Father, we're grateful for this time. We're grateful so much for the clarity of Your Word, and we pray that in all things You would work out Your perfect will according to Your sovereign plan, and that we would be faithful to trust You and to obey You until we see You face-to-face. In Jesus' name, amen. You have been listening to Pastor and Teacher Don Green. For more information about the ministry of the Grace Life Pulpit, visit www.thegracelifepulpit.com. Please note law prohibits the unauthorized copying or distributing of this audio file. Requests for permission to copy or distribute are made in writing to the Grace Life Pulpit. Copyright by Don Green, All Rights Reserved.