Oh, the gospel will overcome In a world full of sorrow, by evil overrun Where darkness has veiled the light of the sun And we know that the gospel overcomes. You're listening to The Dean's List, an analysis of news, culture, and theological trends from a biblical worldview. This is your place for intelligent conversation on the relevant issues of our day, each Friday and Saturday at 1130 and each Sunday at noon. And now, here's the host of The Dean's List, Dr. Paul Dean. blowing hot air. That's not what we're doing today. A lot of folks say, is that what you're doing? Mary, is that what we're doing? It's a little cooler than it has been. I know it. I know it. Well, I'm talking about in terms of what we're talking about. I know. A lot of folk might say, well, yeah, you guys, y'all just blowing hot air. I don't know. I hope they're not saying that. We're trying to bring a biblical worldview to bear on all this stuff. OK. Yeah, lots of stuff going on. Listen, had a debate last night. Had two debates. Lots of debating going on. Lots of debating. Yeah, I got to see them both. The first one in its entirety. The second one I was having trouble with my connection and it kept going in and out on me and I missed the end, the talk about God. That's the part I wanted to see and I missed it. But anyway, we're not going to talk about the debate the entire time. That's part of what we're going to talk about. It's a smorgasbord today. It's a buffet. I like that. I love the buffet. Wherever there's an all-you-can-eat. Load it up. Anyway. Blowing hot air, though, that's what Chris Christie accused Rand Paul of doing. I mean, to me, that was one of the most stunning moments of the entire debate. The second one. Here's Chris Christie saying that Rand Paul's blowing hot air because he supports, guess what? The Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. I mean, it was like, oh, my goodness. It's like on that previous broadcast. We don't want liberty anymore. We don't want the Constitution. Here's Chris Christie. Forget it. Don't want the Constitution. My goodness, let me give you a little quote here. This is from Thomas DiLorenzo. He's a professor, please forgive me, I forget which major university, but he's a scholar, a conservative guy, but he says this, like Rudy Giuliani, Christie is a former federal prosecutor who uses 9-11 to justify a seething hatred of civil liberties, due process, and constitutionalism. And, no I wouldn't say that, this is DeLorenzo, not me. And he looked like he was wearing a cheap wig. Oops. Well if we want to talk about hair, let's talk about Trump. There was another stunning moment, Donald Trump declaring bankruptcy four times, his company. Listen, people love Trump, I know why. He says what's on his mind, you know where he stands, okay, that's good. He's saying some conservative things, he's saying some things that a lot of other folk want to say. And you know what? There's a part of me that likes a part of what Trump is saying. You know, before I realized, I was just down in the gutter most of the time. I used to watch Celebrity Apprentice. I mean, it was very entertaining. Huh? For a time. For a time. Then I realized, wait a minute, I'm just filling my mind with a bunch of junk here. But no, you know, and look, businessman, Obviously, you know, you have to say he knows what he's doing. Now, is he worth $10 billion or $3 billion? I don't know. There's a debate about that. But, you know, he's worth more than a billion. That's a lot of money. He obviously can blow a lot of hot wind. Yeah, he can too. I guess he knows how to do that, yeah. But I think he said last night, Gary, correct me if I'm wrong, his personal net worth is $10 billion or more. Didn't he say that? Something like that. I didn't get to see all of it. Oh, okay. My wife would only let me watch 15 minutes. That's all I can stand. I can't stand no more. I know. My wife should put that kind of restriction on me as well. But anyhow, no, but you know, they asked him about the, you know, four times, and basically his answer was, I use the laws to my advantage. Everybody else in this room does too. Well... That's a true statement, I'm sure. That's a true statement. I mean, it's one thing to use the law to your advantage, but, you know, when you declare bankruptcy, I mean, if you're broke and you can't help it, I mean, through circumstances beyond your control, I mean, those things happen to people. I understand that. At the same time, I also know people who declare bankruptcy and then pay every dime back to the folk that they owe. You see, that's a biblical thing to do. We want to pay back what we owe. In fact, the Bible talks about not getting in debt enough so that, you know, that happens. You know, I mean, I'm not, well, I shouldn't even say that. Is Dave Ramsey still on this? No, okay, so I can say it. Not a big Dave, is his name Dave Ramsey? See, I don't even know his name, not a big fan. It's all about the money for him. Now look, does he get some good advice? You tell me, you're gonna mitigate that. I'm gonna mitigate that, but you know, I do, I think people take, well, I guess he, sometimes what he says, it does seem like that's the goal, you know, to amass wealth. Well, that's what he says. But he does say, so you can give. And so, yeah. And now a lot of young people are learning how to start off right. Yeah, that's true. He helps people. All right, go ahead. He helps people. But I'm just saying, his worldview with reference to amassing wealth is not biblical. I'll say that. And it's dangerous. But I'll leave it there. OK. All right. Now, of course, some people think I'm dangerous. That is true, too. That's my middle name. Danger. All right. So where was I going with it? Oh, but here's Trump. You're talking about his hair, but no. OK. OK. Like I'm going to talk about someone's hair. This is radio, thankfully. Look at this. Thankfully. That's right. It's radio. But no, no, no, no. You know, when you go bankrupt like Trump using the laws, I mean, you're really stiffing a lot of people. You know, you're leaving a lot of people holding their back. Now, of course, his answer was, hey, look, these lenders are killers. Don't let them fool you. You know, I forget exact words he said, but they're not Bambi. Well, that's true. I mean, they know what they're doing, but still. Anyway, I just thought it was stunning. Stunning. So what else was stunning? We had the Chris Christie comment to Rand Paul. We had Trump. I don't know. There was some stunning moments. It was interesting. We're not going to talk about this the entire time I said that. It was very interesting. Hey, let me read you a quote from Lawrence Vance because one of the things we're trying to do in the broadcast, actually it's twofold. We're trying to say some things that are just outrageous. Actually, I'm not. I was thinking, what? No, I'm not. They sound outrageous. You do want people to think. But I want people to think. So sometimes it comes across as outrageous. That's true. Now, I've quoted Lawrence Vance before. He's a Baptist preacher. This dude knows what he's talking about. But listen to this. He said, instead of stupid questions, talking about the debate, instead of stupid questions asked of the GOP candidates last night at the debate, Fox should have asked a question of substance. Oh, agreed. A question of substance that would show us the real character of our would-be rulers. How about, do you think the atomic bombing of Japan and the killing of 200,000 civilians was justified? That's what I could ask. Do I want to win the war? Of course I do. Of course I do. But, you know, we all know now that Japan was talking about, you know, making peace. They were talking about surrender. And our leaders knew that. And yet they still went ahead and dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Anyway, here's what Vance says. I suspect that every one of them would say, yes, it was justified because it saved millions of lives on both sides, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. We've heard it all before. Now, listen, why am I saying this? Just to be outright? No, I'm a Christian. And Christians have to think things through. We're not warmongers. You know, I'm not a total isolationist. You know, we live in a big world. Well, actually, it's a small world, I should say. You know, we've got to interact with people all over the globe, and I believe in self-defense. But a lot of times we support things simply because, well, the vast majority of Americans or the vast majority of Christians or whoever support it, and we're afraid to speak the truth. Well, just like we would be pro-life here with the bomb situation, as a Christian, we should be pro-life. And that was something that was not a military attack, that was devastation on entire cities for years. Yeah, it wasn't merely a military attack. That's right. Yeah, yeah, that's for sure. Well, the effects are still going on. That's right. The consequences were... As a humanitarian beyond belief. Is it this week, the 70th anniversary? I think so, yes. Of the bombing there. Anyway, so yes, ongoing effects still to this day. So that's probably enough about the debate. We'll leave it there with that little bombshell. No pun intended. Wow. Actually, it wasn't a pun intended. It just came out. I'm naturally... You know, we have a friend who is naturally... The punmeister? The punmeister. Yeah. Wish he'd call in. No, I'm kidding. Well, I'm not kidding. He can if he wants to. It's on Fridays. You can call in. That's right. We're live right now. We're going to move on, though. Gary, sorry, I'm getting off track. How long before the break? Two minutes. Two minutes. All right. Let's do this. I want to move on. Like I said today, it's a smorgasbord. Now I'm going to move on. We're leaving the debate behind. Is there anything else you want to say about the debate? Who do you think won? I mean, I thought, you know, the first debate, Carly Fiorina did a good job. She was pretty impressive. Oh, speaking of war, how about Lindsey Graham? He had a message of he's gonna get him. Yeah, I tell you what, someone said earlier, and I said this last night, if I was listening to Lindsey Graham, which we were, you know, and this is all I knew, but I just think he just wants to go to war. But anyway, I think he wants to get that message out that he wants more troops. Yeah, obviously I'm not voting for Lindsey Graham. Uh, anyway, but like other people said, everybody's went in with their favorite. It seems like a lot of people, people did stand out, but, but I still have my favorite. Yeah. Yeah. My candidate probably didn't come across as well as I wanted, you know, him to, but, uh, he's still my candidate, you know, I'm not changing. But, uh, that said, I was impressed with a few of the, I mean, like I said, I was impressed with Fiorina. Listen, I'm impressed more and more lately, and I was before, but you know, he falls off the radar, he's soft-spoken, but I'm more and more impressed. Ben Carson, this guy's thoughtful, you know. Like his tax plan. Yeah, absolutely, you know, and I'm not telling anybody who to vote for, but Liberty, that's a big one for me, you know, that's why I like what Rand Paul's saying, but apparently not everyone does. All right, so I got bogged back down. You did. Yeah, and by the way, I was combining the two debates. Anyway, I'm talking too much. There's an interview I want to talk about. Whoa, that music means we're going to break. Well, hey, it's a good place to break, isn't it? When we come back, we'll talk about this interview. Jonathan Merritt, I can talk about him, but he had an interview with Russell Moore. And he talked about religious liberty, Franklin Graham, the fact that Russell Moore used to be a Democrat, all kinds of things. So we're going to look at some of his answers and we're going to dissect them a little bit and maybe relate them back to the debate and where we're going as a nation and who we are as Christians. Does that sound good? Sounds good. Alright, stay tuned. Be right back. The Planned Parenthood videos have shocked the conscience of all who have one left, and yet the mainstream media continue to ignore or downplay them. The light needs to shine on this terrible darkness. And on the next edition of Breakpoint This Week, John Stonestreet and guests Molly Hemingway and Scott Klusendorf shine biblical light on the Planned Parenthood versus pro-life issue. Don't miss Breakpoint This Week. Sunday afternoon at 1.30 on Christian Talks 660 and 92.9. culture, issues, society. This is Law and Justice with Jay Saculo. I'm wondering if there are written guidelines for chaplains, what their speech can be or prayers can be at invocations, at various functions. Let me tell you the best example I would give, and that is the example that takes place in the House and Senate. And there the chaplains compose their own prayers, make their own statements, have their own liturgy when they do their own, if they do services or Bible studies for the members of the House or the Senate. And I would say, George, you would have that same right under the First Amendment to do that. But right now, as the law stands, there's a case that's very supportive of your position here, and I think you're fine to continue to pray. Pray the way you feel like you want to pray. If you want to end it in Jesus' name, you have the right to do that. If you want to speak at functions, you certainly have the First Amendment right to do that. If you have a legal question or concern, visit us on our website at aclj.org. That's aclj.org. NORTH GREENVILLE UNIVERSITY WHERE CHRIST MAKES THE DIFFERENCE AND ALEX MCFARLAND PRESENT TRUTH FOR A NEW GENERATION AT FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH SPARTANBURG SEPTEMBER 18TH AND 19TH. COME AND HEAR SOME OF THE TOP SPEAKERS IN AMERICA TALK ABOUT WHAT IS TRULY NEEDED TO MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN. THE BENHAM BROTHERS, WILL GRAHAM, LEE STROVELL, DR. ALVIDA KING, TODD STARNS, DELL TACKETT, STEVEN MEYER AND MANY MORE. TICKETS ARE GOING FAST BUT THEY ARE AVAILABLE TODAY AT TRUTHFORANEWGENERATION.COM. THAT'S TRUTHFORANEWGENERATION.COM. Welcome back to the Dean's List. For more resources, including articles, books, and archive broadcasts, simply log on to trueworldview.net. Once again, here's your host for today's edition, Dr. Paul Dean. All right. Hey, all we're urging folk to do is to think. Think things through. Sometimes we're raised a certain way. We have a certain mindset. We hear somebody's argument. We don't hear the other side. And so we're locked in. But you know what we have to do? We have to look at every single issue through the lens of Scripture. And let's take Scripture as a whole and, you know, what biblical principles would come into play on this particular issue or that particular issue. That's all we're urging. And so quite honestly, My commitment to the Lord Jesus Christ has only increased over the years, and my commitment to the authority and the inerrancy of Scripture has only increased over the years. And so I believe every word of the Bible, Genesis 1-1 all the way to the last verse of Revelation, every word of it, right? So you can define me as a conservative. However, certain theological slash practical applied theology to our culture, to things like war, things like government, those things evolve over time, don't they? I mean, everything. We learn a little bit more. We put pieces together. And if we're not willing to do that, well, then we remain stagnant, and maybe we've got the right answer here, but maybe we don't. So, just urging folk to think, right? There are some things that haven't changed since day one. Jesus is Lord. That hasn't changed, right? That's right. Doesn't matter what Caesar said. Think about that, by the way, and I'm getting off track a little bit. But you go to Romans 10, right? Okay. If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved, right? Isn't that awesome? That's awesome. And I believe every word. I've always believed that. But you know what? Jesus is Lord. What's Paul getting at? Not only the fact that Jesus is Lord, not only what he said to the Philippians, one day every knee will bow, every tongue will confess to the glory of God the Father, that Jesus Christ is Lord, right? He's Lord of heaven and earth. But think about it. In context. Caesar demanded worship. He declared himself to be God. And the confession of faith for the Roman Empire in those days was Caesar is Lord. And you had to say that, and if you weren't willing to say that, then you get your head chopped off. Talk about ISIS. You know, Nero, listen, Nero makes ISIS look like a bunch of sissies. No, I'm not saying ISIS is a bunch of sissies. I hope nobody comes after me from the Middle East and, you know, don't want even people here to think I'm downplaying what's happening. I mean, it's a dangerous threat and they have to be dealt with. All right, but Nero was a bad guy. That's all I'm trying to say. And Caesar is Lord. But see, the early Christians wouldn't do that, and that's why they were put to death without mercy. And this is what Paul was saying to the Romans. If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord. See? Not Caesar, but Jesus. You will be saved. You will be delivered. Even if you have your head chopped off, or if you're burned at the stake, or if you're eaten alive by wild animals for Caesar's pleasure, you will be delivered ultimately. And guess what? The resurrection from the dead will be yours. Isn't that awesome? That's the gospel. And that's how the gospel overcomes. That's how the gospel overcomes. That's right. So, you know, it didn't change my theology in Jesus' Lord, but you learn a little bit. Oh, wow. This is a little bit more impactful than I thought, right? So that's all I'm urging when we talk about these things. Don't just tune me out, turn me down, turn me off. Think! Search the scriptures to see if what I'm saying is true. Be a Berean, right? That's right. Be a Berean. All right. We're going to talk a little bit about Russell Moore, so now we've got to be Bereans again. I'm going to be a Berean with reference to Russell Moore, but I want the folk to be a Berean with reference to what I have to say. And I'm taking a while to get to it. Forgive me. I'm going to have to kip over a couple of questions. I mentioned this is an interview. Jonathan Merritt's conducting the interview. Here's the first question I want to get to. One before that had to do, you know, Russell Moore was a Democrat at one time. Well, you know, he just worked for a Democrat guy who was very conservative, pro-life, et cetera. Okay. I don't care. All right, here's this question. Well, I mean, I'm not a Democrat, but I don't care. In your book, you argue that we should do away with a moral majority mindset and adopt a prophetic minority mindset instead. What does that look like practically? So here's Russell Moore's answer. The assumption that the larger culture agrees with Christians on values issues led to evangelicals minimizing the theologically distinctive aspects of Christian witness. That's true, isn't it? That's absolutely true. That's right. I mean... You've talked about that before. We've talked about it before. Just because you have some values the same doesn't mean they're Christian values. That's right. That they're all going to be the same. Yeah, it doesn't mean that they believe in these values. All of these values are the same reasons. All right? It also set up evangelicals to be disappointed when the culture did not turn out the way many expected it to turn out. And it certainly hasn't, right? That's correct. And that's, again, because people didn't necessarily share our values. And when they said they shared our values, again, it might not have been for the same reason. So he's dead on. So our response, he goes on to say, ought to be that we are always, in every culture, strangers in exile. He's coming from 1 Peter, all right? So you can't argue with that, right? That's not a new phenomenon. We're not exiled from American culture as if we were previously at home here, but now we have a clarity about where we fit in American culture that is appropriate and right and that gives us an opportunity to speak as people who are both alienated and engaged. So we're alienated from this culture because we don't belong. But we're engaged because God has put us here for a purpose, but now we know where we fit. We're not like the folk around us. We love the folk around us. We want to reach the folk around us. We want to die for the folk around us, not just pit ourselves against them as adversaries. It sounds like that's what I'm doing a lot of the time. I'm certainly not. I'm lamenting the cultural erosion, the moral erosion, the logical erosion, the civil erosion that's happening around about us. but I want to reach people for Christ out of a heart for God and a heart for people, right? Right. So now I know where I fit, though. Now, I agree with that. So we're going to move on. Did you want to comment? Because we're going to move on to another question. Go ahead. All right. Then we're going to camp out on... I'm still swirling that around in my head, but go ahead. Swirl it. Swirl it. Swirl it. We are going to camp out on one or two. All right. Here's the next question. You also talk in the book about how Christians should interact with culture. Franklin Graham said recently that Muslims should not be allowed to immigrate to America. What do you think about that idea? Hey, before more answers, what do you think? Well, I've heard people say that same thing, that they shouldn't be allowed, but I don't see why not. Yes, well, I mean, we live in a free society, and if they follow the legal channels, they can immigrate. Now, if they threaten to kill us, that's different. I mean, you can't immigrate into American society with a threat on your lips. No, now you're an enemy. Because the tables could turn really quick. Yeah, you say I'm going to be peaceful. We still, actually we don't, but we should still believe in freedom. in a civil society. So here's what Moore said, I'm not for barring Muslims from the United States. Not because I believe Christianity and Islam are morally equivalent. Good. It's because I believe in the power of the gospel. Yes, and the presence of our Muslim neighbors does not threaten that. Yes, we should be kind to these Muslim neighbors and share the gospel evangelistically with them. Many of the Muslim refugees in this country may well be our future brothers and sisters in Christ. Now, I agree with that, too. Moore's going to take some heat, though, from some conservative Christians for that. And see, he said some stuff that's not exactly conservative or biblical lately, and so now folk are piling on. But I'm not going to pile on that when I agree with him. Because why? Because you believe the gospel can change people. That's right. I'm trying to look through the lens of scripture. Not going to drop a bomb on them. Gary, you got that dialed up? Is that the Daz band? You dropped a bomb on me? No, no, no. I'm sorry. Pre-conversion. I wasn't wild, but I knew that song. That's true. It's still a good song. Wait a minute. I don't know if it is. No, you don't. I don't even know what the words mean. I wouldn't even say that. I just don't say it. The music was good. You enjoyed it at the time. I enjoyed the music. Well, I still do. If the words are bad, though, I'm not promoting the song. nothing wrong with, you know, certain sounds that are, you know, they have no... Anyway, we'll get into another discussion on that in the future. Here's the next question. Religious liberty, Merritt says to Moore, is very important to you, and you stated that a Christian business owner should be able to refuse service to an LGBT couple seeking to wed. Merritt says, we disagree on this. But now, see, I agree with Moore. In other words, Christian business owner should be able to refuse service to the LGBT couple. we still should have religious, you know, if we have a conviction, should still be able to follow through on that, like a pharmacist friend of ours, you know, they don't want to prescribe the morning after pill. Yeah, they don't want to dispense it. Dispense it, yeah. Not prescribe it. That's correct, yeah. So Moore, you know, he agrees with us on that. You know, Merritt asked him why. So here's what Moore says. I think the government should not coerce people with the threat of running them out of business to participate in activities that they believe to be immoral. There's a difference between a business selling a product and a person using his or creative talents to participate in a ceremony that he or she believes to be immoral. Now, see, I agree with part of what Moore said, but I don't agree with the other part. OK. But I think this next question and answer will clarify. All right. But what he says is, I don't believe the government should be able to coerce people with the threat of running them out of business to participate in activities they believe to be immoral. So Merritt says, well, why do you think the Christian Cake Baker should be able to refuse service on religious grounds to an LGBT couple but should not be able to refuse service on religious grounds to an interracial couple or a Muslim couple? Well, here's what Moore says. Well, I don't think the issue is refusing service, but participating in a wedding that is a moral violation of their conscience. Now, that's true. The belief about human sexuality is one held by every major religion. This is not some novel idea. Okay, but hang on. Punchline's coming. But what if, the interviewer asks, you had a cake baker who was a Bob Jones University grad that believed the Bible taught that a black person shouldn't marry a white person. Would you support that cake baker refusing to participate in an interracial wedding because it would be a moral violation of their conscience? You know what Russell Moore said? He probably said they should. He said, would you support the cake baker for refusing? to participate. He said, he said, I would not support that. So he's flip flop. Okay. He supports the Baker not supporting the gay wedding, but he doesn't support the Baker who, who doesn't want to participate in an interracial wedding. Now, I have no problem with interracial marriage, just so you know. I do have a problem with gay marriage. And neither does Bob Jones anymore, just so you know there, too. But here's the point. Moore is being inconsistent. I agree there. You're either for freedom. Thank you. You're like, we don't serve anybody without shirts and shoes, you know? That's right. That should be our freedom. You're either for freedom or you're not. So Russell Moore, see, this is what I was trying to get at earlier. He needs to think more biblically on this, even though he might be a more astute theologian than I. I have no idea. And you know what? It's not a contest. I'm not looking for a third place ribbon here. Or a blue ribbon. I'd like a blue ribbon. But that'd be, you know, prideful. But I am making a serious point. It's not a content, but he needs to think this through a little bit more. Oh my goodness, we're out of time. There was some other stuff I was really gonna take issue with. It's not all we do on the broadcast. But you take issue with things that are pretty commonly held so that you can what? Speak the truth. We'll do it next time. You've been listening to The Dean's List, an analysis of news, culture and theological trends from a biblical worldview. To access archived broadcasts, go to trueworldview.net where you'll find other helpful resources as well. Join us each week at 1130 on Friday and Saturday and noon on Sunday for The Dean's List. The opinions expressed on today's program are those of the announcers, their guests, and callers, and do not necessarily represent those of the staff and management of his radio network, the Radio Training Network, or iHeart Media.