Let's get started. What portions books of the Bible has God used in your life to bring you into greater fellowship with him? That's a wonderful question. Let's start with our visiting speakers. Ronald, first of all. I would say the first one is the book of Romans. It was during an exposition of that book that I first came to know the Lord. And then secondly, the book of Psalms. I can say that the whole Bible has been very influential in my life. But if I were to point out two books, it would be those. Romans and Psalms, okay. I don't know if we should run a leak table here. Well, with me, it would be Mark's gospel. That's just simply magnificent, Mark's gospel. And then individual verses, Deuteronomy 29, 29. The secret things belong to the Lord. The things that are revealed belong to us and to our children. That's absolutely fundamental. That's been just a key verse for me. And then Galatians 2, 20. I've been crucified with Christ. Nevertheless, I live, yet not I. Christ liveth in me. I think you could go on and on. That's hard to stop, isn't it? Bill, what about you? I think for myself, certainly the Psalms, singing them and studying them, just absolutely a tremendous blessing in coming to know the Lord. The book of Hebrews, I have the privilege of preaching through that, just coming to know Christ so richly and beautifully through that book. And then the Ephesians 2, the first part of the chapter. It's hard to answer that question. I would have to agree with almost everybody so far that the psalms have a daily benefit. No matter what else I'm reading in the scripture, there's always a psalm that is meditated on as part of that Bible time that I have with the Lord. So on a consistent basis, I would say the psalms, in many ways the book of Ecclesiastes has been greatly influenced in my life to kind of view life, I think, with a Christian perspective, but certainly to solve on a daily basis. Individual text Romans 828 was used to give me my first hope outside of myself in Christ. All things work together for good to those that love God. And in my call to the ministry, the most powerful text was, I shall go forth in the strength of the Lord God to make mention of thy righteousness, even of thine only. And that's probably the first text in my life that I felt I received some depth of insight into when I was a boy of 15. And it was a compelling text calling me into the ministry. In terms of personal life and kind of combination with preaching, I think Psalm 23 was very precious to me. It was the first series of sermons I did in my life and left an indelible mark on me. Our faithful, good, great and chief shepherd. And then my favorite book to preach on was Genesis. And I think I got the most out of that for my own soul. I would echo the Psalms. Isaiah is probably my favorite book to preach from. I've said before that if you restricted me to one book for the rest of my life preaching, I'd choose Isaiah. I love the poetry and the imagery and the comfort and just the sense of God, His holiness, His greatness, His mercy, His love. John also. Studying through John last year just really was deep, it was an ocean. I love John, the Gospel of John, Ephesians as well, so those would be mine. Definitely Romans, Romans 1.16, I'm not ashamed of the Gospel for it's the power of God and salvation. 1 Corinthians 1, about the, we preach Christ crucified, the power and the wisdom of God. And my favourite Old Testament passage is the meeting between Hagar and the angel of the Lord. That to me is just, I keep going back to that again and again. It gives me so much hope and joy. Okay, if there's no hope of salvation and creation, is there any hope for aboriginal people who have never been visited by missions? I think that probably came out of your own address, Dr. Barrett. The hope for those that have never heard the gospel is to hear the gospel. There is no salvation apart from special revelation, apart from hearing the Word of God. We have to trust the sovereignty of the Lord here, that salvation is of the Lord. And I don't want to base anything on anecdotal evidence or stories, but I've heard so many times over the years stories of missionaries going to a particular place that hear the gospel and immediate conversion right across the board. Salvation is of the Lord. If we believe that, then if we, I'll put it this way, if we believe that the end God has determined, the election of his people, we also believe that he's decreed the ends to accomplish those means. And we trust him that the gospel will get there. But apart from the gospel, no hope. Anyone want to add to that? OK. What are some ideas for evangelism using creation as a reason or persuasion? What are some ideas for evangelism using creation as a reason or persuasion? You can start with yourself, Dr. Thomas. I often appeal to the sunsets over the Irish Sea. The starlings in that murmur that a thousand of them circling and clouding around and the waves beating on the shore and that sunset touch that Browning speaks about that you see it and there's an act of recognition and of awe. The senses deitatus that the natural man has because he bears the image of God and that then you appeal to them as made in the image of God themselves with a conscience that sees in creation around. order and design and that most of you have never seen or heard me before and you come here and I'm able to speak to you on an extraordinary profound level about origins and destinies and the purpose of life and it all speaks then on a human level of of an order that God has made and that's the sort of approach that I make when arguing with students. Schaefer, he's walking down Regent Street and the student that he's talking to is belligerent and he's answering harshly and they come out of the traffic and they go into Regents Park and the noise of the traffic dies down and the sound of the birds and the green grass and the trees and the man's arguments start to crumble and he starts then to ask Schaefer more questions and his whole attitude changes, you know, creation on our side. Fascinating. Pastor Califongo, have you used creation much as a means of evangelism, as a contact point? Yes. I don't know whether your question is, how can we use it in evangelism? Yeah. Is it? Okay. God created us, obviously, to worship him. to reflect his glory. And we reflect his glory as human beings because he made us in his image. And we reflect his glory when we create out of something ourselves. And we live for God. Sin was a departure from the purpose for which God created us. Redemption was God's means of rescuing man from this departure so he can go back to his original purpose. Creation can therefore be a kind of bouncing board to the gospel. a means of reaching out man who has strayed away from it. I have from time to time emphasized this fact in my evangelistic ministry that when we are in sin, We are living away from what God intended us to be in creation. What God has created us, what God has created around us, is a reminder to us. of the fact that God exists and he is calling us to be what he originally intended us to be. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is certainly a means in God's hand. of bringing us back to that original standpoint. So maybe that's just a theological piece. Oh, thank you. Bill, you're involved in church planting and outreach. Are you using creation as you go around the doors of Grand Rapids? Yes, we do. We often have a conversation on someone's doorstep, seek to begin with creation, and then move to the fall, and then to the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ, understanding our own sin. And sometimes in a conversation, just pointing them to the marvelous complexity of just themselves as a person, Speaking of how God has created everything good and beautiful and just incredible wisdom of God. And then pointing out, but in this world there are so many things that are wrong. There's brokenness, there's sin, and everyone knows this. And everyone feels those burdens. Why are there things that are wrong in the midst of this world? And then being able to speak of the fall into sin and its consequence and the need for Christ. So I think we really need to begin with creation because otherwise sin and the fall don't have a context and the work of Christ needs that context as well. Dr. Bukia, you've evangelized many people in your travels. Have you found this a useful beginning point to get to the Word? I may be approaching it too simplistic, but I try to find out, first of all, if they believe in the Bible or not. If they believe in the Bible, I just go straight there. You've got so much more solid ground to work on. If they don't believe the Bible, then I back up. All the answers have been very good so far. I probably find myself Because I try to get close to somebody, try to understand them, who they are, their family, you know, work and everything. And they start to get to know me, because after a while, someone asks you a whole bunch of questions, you start asking some questions back. So I try to use something a little autobiographical. I've used this before, where I tell them that I was really trying hard to convince myself there was a God. I went out to the Rocky Mountains, and I stood in front of the mountains, trying to convince myself there's a God. I said, I don't know if you've ever done anything like that, but it didn't work for me. I was, I came under conviction of sin and I was, one day I was just laying in the grass and I saw a ladybug, just a little tiny ladybug and I thought, wow, I gotta stand before the judge of heaven and earth one day, the God who made this ladybug. And I started looking at the grass, the ladybug was crawling up, I thought, where'd that grass come from? Have you ever thought about anything like that? You know, just kind of, Get something personal out there and just ask them, hey, has anything like that happened to you? And just go from there. Very good. Very good. Jerry, how can I know Christ is mine? By believing and resting in the gospel alone. By seeking to know the gospel and the Lord of the gospel through the word. It's not through experiences, it's not through mystical experiences, it's through the truth of the scriptures. Sanctify them through thy truth, thy word is truth. So if someone's struggling with that, someone's asking that question, it's in the gospel. When Luther was dealing with that question, he got the advice, a very good advice, look to Christ. You'll find assurance in the wounds of Christ, in his suffering and dying for sinners. It's in Christ lifted up as we focus on him, as he's set forth in the gospel, as we look to him and lean on him, that the spirit bears witness with our spirit. Dr. Barrett, can you speak briefly about how the Old Testament is used in the New Testament? Yeah, the hard word there is briefly. Yeah, just a couple of thoughts, and I think if we understand truth. Truth is singular. Truth is universal and truth is timeless. But the application of truth is multifunctional. Now what we have in the New Testament very often will be a new environment, a new application of an Old Testament truth, but the truth is the same. There are many theories here, but the bottom line is I would argue very strongly that the New Testament writers under inspiration never ever changed the intended meaning of an Old Testament passage. That the meaning is exactly the same. Applying it in a different context and so therefore it would appear to us that they've changed the meaning perhaps. But if we study the context, I remember, for instance, when I was doing my book on Hosea, you come to that statement in chapter 11 out of Egypt, if I called my son, and you see how Matthew uses that in regard to the escape of the baby Jesus, child Jesus, because of Herod's threat to kill the children. And he says this is the fulfillment of that prophecy out of Egypt if I called my son. And I went back to Hosea and I must confess that I read that and I said to myself I could read this all day long and never come up with that interpretation from Hosea chapter 1. But when I understood and started looking a little deeper into how Hosea was making that statement, and then looked at the placement of that statement in the whole narrative of Matthew, it wasn't Christ coming out of Egypt that's applied to, but it's Christ going out of Israel to Egypt. And the way Matthew uses it, Egypt really becomes Israel. And I had to look at that, and without going into all the detail, I had to say, you know, Matthew really understood the theology of Hosea. We tend to look at it very cursorily, and if we don't see it immediately, we say, well, they've changed the meaning. Some would argue that under inspiration, they have the right to change the meaning. Well, that to me undermines the fact that the Old Testament writer was under inspiration as well. And what he said was truth, and what he said. So you don't change truth. The application of truth can vary. But, yeah, brief. We have a whole three-hour class that will deal with that issue. Do you want to add anything to that? That way or this way? Okay, here's a trick question. And it's fingers on the buzzers, okay? So first one to answer this. Are you ready? Is there a prize? Yeah, I think the person who gets it right already has the prize. Here's a cryptic prophecy for you. What significant event took place on this day 26 years ago? Fingers on the buzzers. I know. I receive the most beautiful, wonderful, gorgeous, astounding woman in the world to be my wife. You have the prize. Some people go through a period of depression that may be unexplained or caused by hormones or just because God decides to test them or show his power through them. How can one get through this? Well, I raised this and it was particularly with my wife. My wife has Alzheimer's and she is diagnosed as a number of ailments that she has, deafness and high blood pressure. And I give her her tablets in the morning, six of them and then two at night and her memory is going. And then earlier this year then she began to break down and cry. She was already diagnosed as being ill. And when I'd ask her why she was crying, she'd say, well, my mother and father have died. And I said, well, that's 35 years ago. Or she'd say, Jesus saved me. She didn't have really any rational answers. So I had a chat to her doctor who has been very kind and helpful. I said, is there a mild antidepressant that she could take? Just a very slight antidepressant that would help her at this time. He said, yeah, that would be a good idea. And he prescribed one and she's taking one. And she has then, within a week or two, she has stopped. She hasn't cried or so since. It's been a real help to her. So there are times when As we are living in a groaning creation, and if you'd see her and knew what she was and what she's not today, then you would see, ah, well, I groan with her, and I can help her. And medical science can help her, and kind and wise doctors can help. And so I have no problems with such prescriptions. that can assist in a medical condition like this. Anyone else want to comment? Obviously cases of depression can be very complicated sometimes. They don't all look the same in every person. So one must first of all establish what the causes of the depression is. There could be physical causes and there could be spiritual causes. And by spiritual, I don't just mean that somebody perhaps is struggling with sin omission or commission, but may even be struggling with demonic forces. That can come into play as well. So one must determine what the cause is. And having determined that, you can then go on to propose a cure or a way of dealing with the problem. If it's physical, obviously, one needs to involve medical practitioners or psychologists. And medication may be what a person needs to get through their depression. If it's spiritual, i.e., they are entertaining sin in their lives, the answer is very clear in the scriptures. They need to repent of that sin, whatever it might be, and they need to look to Christ, who alone is able to take away sin. Sometimes it may be that they are omitting duty and the cure may lie in beginning to perform. duties they might have been omitting. And they need to be helped through that. I think it's also important to identify the place of the scriptures in all this. In Psalm 42, some of you may have read the little book on depression by Dr. Martin Lloyd-Jones. It was an exposition of that Psalm mainly. in which he also encouraged the need to do what the psalmist in chapter 42 does. He speaks to himself and he counsels himself to look to God, to hope in God. and not to continue being downcast. And we do need, from time to time, to encourage those who are prone to depressions to read the scriptures and meditate on the scriptures and seize the promises of the scriptures. In the days we live, we are increasingly being moved away from the scriptures, further and further away from the scriptures, and being called to trust more in what science is able to offer us. But more often than not, the cure can be found. in the scriptures, if we could develop the habits of meditating upon the scriptures and seizing their promises, we would feel better. I think to expect a situation where we were all completely without any depression is to be unrealistic because we live in a fallen world. We have to learn to manage those sad feelings. And sometimes God wants us to live with sad feelings so we can learn to trust him more. Thank you. As an author of a book on depression, what... Well, I just thought these were two very wise, compassionate, balanced answers. I wouldn't have really much to add to it. I think the two extremes are to be avoided. One is to rush to medication, first and foremost, without any investigation of any other causes. And the other is to refuse all medication, no matter what circumstances we are in. Our moods are affected by our hormones, our chemistry. You know, go and eat at McDonald's for a week and try not to be depressed. It affects your body chemistry and it affects your moods. And so we're falling creatures and that chemistry, these hormones are going to get. out of sync, they're going to be depleted, they're going to be imbalanced at times. And the science of it is still at a very early stage. There's still a lot of trial and error. But we're living in better days for that. The technology is becoming more sophisticated. Brain scans are becoming more sophisticated. And I think there's a better, a more targeted approach to it rather than a bit of a scattergun approach. But what I have found most common in dealing with depression in people is just what our brothers have said here, that it really needs a package. It's rarely one thing that causes it, and it's rarely one thing that cures it. And so you have to, as they said, look at the physical, the social, the physical, the spiritual, the cognitive, and try and find out which parts of these are applying, and therefore what treatments are also required. And I think above all, what I have seen, when people use the means God has provided, they do get better, and they beautifully glorify God in it, and are incredibly useful after it. So there's a good purpose in it. We just have time for one last question. It's a question I don't have in front of me, but it's one I'm often asked. Maybe just put it around the panel here. Parents obviously ask us as pastors, how do we get our children to read the Bible or read it better or read it more profitably? What would you recommend to parents? You know, this is a conference all about the Bible. Many of us here come here because we love the Bible. We sometimes maybe look at our children and wish there was more of that. How do we cultivate that and how do we help them make progress in their own personal Bible reading? Maybe Bill, we'll start with you. I think my children are the youngest here of everyone's, and undoubtedly will be the youngest soon. But in our setting, our children, some of them can read, some of them can't yet. So a key thing is family worship. going through a scripture passage. After dinner, we sit in the living room and just seeking to explain that to the children, read it, explain it, talk about it. We've just finished going through Genesis. We're now into Exodus. It hits everything that there is going on in the world. And I think as parents, as we pray, prepare our hearts, we use helps, a good study Bible. And really, as we love the word, our hearts are stirred by love for the word. I think it's captivating to the kids. Not always, sometimes they're They're dull and slow just as we are. But I think that can be a great encouragement. We've been encouraged to see our children at times, even this week, say, Dad, do we have to stop now? Reading, can we keep reading? But I know at other times there can be seasons where it's a great challenge to get children into the word. And so I'll pass that on to some of our more seasoned fathers. seasoned fathers. I can only share what we have done. Some of our children are adults, so we are no longer treating them as we did when they were younger. But the key thing, as my brothers just said, is the family worship. Making it the place where Bible reading is done regularly and also the place where we can check on the children to see whether they are reading the Bible for themselves because we would expect them to share what they are reading. I would ask them questions on what they are reading, and if they have not read, it becomes clear and embarrassing, and they often don't want to place themselves in a position where they are embarrassed. So to use the family altar, I think, is a very good way. And when they are younger, of course, to check that they are actually reading the scriptures every morning, perhaps every evening. That's one contribution to yours. Thank you. I speak to the children every Sunday morning from the pulpit. It's a Welsh tradition. It was there in the congregation. I don't know if there's any scriptural defense of it. Jesus stopping on his way to the cross and addressing the women and telling them a specific message not to weep for him, not to be sorry for him, but to weep for themselves. That's the sort of rather thin basis I have. But every Sunday morning I speak for 10 minutes from the Bible to the children. And I try to make them learn in that way how fascinating and beautiful and interesting and enjoyable the Bible is. I've bored generations of children, I'm sure, with my long sermons and I shall have to answer for that, but I've also tried to compensate by speaking to them warmly of Mephibosheth and other fascinating Bible characters. Thank you. Why don't we turn it slightly as we move over to this side and say, well, why don't you address the children, why they should read the Bible, how they should read the Bible, rather than the parents as this side. Why don't you speak to the younger people here? Why should they read the Bible? How should they read the Bible? It's been a long time. since we've had children in our home. But I would just encourage you to make a habit of it. Make a habit of it. Follow the example of your parents. And I trust the parents are setting a good example for you there concerning the importance of the word. But for the children, just to make a habit of it. You don't have to read a whole lot, but think through it and bring questions to your parents. And so there is some kind of a check and a balance accountability, but I don't think there's any real secret formula. It's just a matter of doing it and enjoying it. Every teenager here and every preteen, if there's a few preteens, invites you to take, free of charge tonight, the little booklet I wrote, How Should Teens Read the Bible? So you can help yourself to that. I think our approach is to say to them, look, we struggle sometimes reading the Bible, too. The Bible's a big book. It can be a hard book. But there are helps, and here's some ways to help you study. I've tried to spell those out as simple as I can. I do wish I had written that booklet a lot earlier, and I wish I had spoken more to my children about how to do that. One thing that was always a burden for me for many, many years was I couldn't recommend a single study Bible to them because we used KJV and all of them were Arminian or dispensational in notes. We did use them in family worship, but we always had to say this was wrong and check that. But now, after my children have pretty much grown up, we finally did the study Bible. So now we use, you know, my one daughter is at home, we use, of course, our own study Bible. And it's wonderful to have something that's thoroughly reformed. And we read aloud always the thoughts for personal and family worship. So if I had to do it over again, do this earlier, and say to the children, when you go to bed at night, make sure you read the thoughts for personal family worship and answer those questions yourself. And read the notes as you read the Bible. That will help you understand the Bible a lot better. Now, what Ronald said, we did do that as well. We made sure they were reading the Bible and so on. And they, of course, would feel guilty and embarrassed if they didn't. So they all made it a habit. There's an old Dutch saying that says, when the form is gone, all is gone. So if children don't get in the habit of reading the Bible, then chances are they'll gravitate towards not doing it. So you need to encourage them, set an example, all those things. But pick up the booklet, and hopefully it'll help you in some way. Have you fed your soul today? I think it's important to remember that we're bodies and souls. We don't skip meals quickly or we catch up later. But do we feed our souls? Has your soul been fed today? Have you been in the Word? You can tell your little kids that even. They understand feeding and being hungry, they come rushing into the door, I'm starved, and think of your soul is starved, and how can you feed that? Well, be in the word and pray for the Lord to bless it. I encourage my children to read at night and to have their Bible and read just a few verses and have a little bookmark, a sheet of paper, they trifold it. And they write the date, and they write what they've read. And for the older ones, a thought or a verse that they can take away. Very important thing to do is to read the Bible speaking to you. This is not speaking to your parents, this is not speaking to someone out in a corner somewhere. I heard a man once, he was in his 70s, he said for the longest time, he thought the Bible was addressed to a very old Woman sitting in a corner dressed in black and that's whom the Lord was talking to and that is a great misunderstanding The Bible's addressed to everyone everywhere. Yes, there are certain promises and certain sections that are Peculiar for the Lord's people and even those we can take to ourselves But have you fed your soul feed your soul every day man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God Thank you. And we're done. Over to you. OK. For those of you who want to go to the seminary yet this evening, I know there are some of you, we're going to leave in 10 minutes, 9.40. We'll do the tour in 20 minutes instead of 30. We'll hustle around. It takes five minutes to get there and five minutes back, so you should be back by 10 after 10. If you want to do that, just meet me up here in 10 minutes. We'll have a little caravan to the seminary. OK? And thank you so much for coming tonight and today. Thank you all. I don't think the singers will be here tomorrow, I'm not sure, but if they're not, I want to just thank you publicly tonight for the wonderful music you gave us. Thank you for all the effort you put into that. And God bless you. Okay? Thank you. We'll close with prayer. great God of the Holy Scriptures, help us to hear thy wonderful voice coming to us loud and clear through this word. And indeed, even the youngest children here, give them an appetite, give them a hunger, a thirst, a longing for the word that they would say that it is more important than their daily food. And we pray that as we leave this conference tomorrow, we would go out as greater lovers of thy word, greater obeyers of thy word, greater witnesses to thy word, and that even if Each one of us would be enabled to speak thy word to one other person with thy blessing. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. Thank you very much everyone.