Welcome to Street Talk Theology with Pastor Dominic Grimaldi. Pastor Dom went from a life of organized crime to federal prison. There, God saved him and set him free. Soon after his release, he attended seminary and received his master's degree, and is now the senior pastor of Desert Sky Baptist Church, where he serves with a passion for biblical theology, right here in Casa Grande. Now let's join our host, Pastor Dominic Grimaldi, Again, this is Pastor Dominic Romali from Street Talk Theology. We take theology and we bring it to the streets. Part two from Faith Talk, 1360 AM, KPXQ in Phoenix with my interview with Dr. James White from April 27, 2015 on his book, The Same Sex Controversy and concerning the Obergefell decision on same sex marriage. So hope you enjoy part two, myself and Dr. James White. On that same note, if I'm reading Dr. Gushie correctly, he believes in monogamy, whether it's two men, two women. Lifelong monogamous committed relationship. And the problem is, and Dr. White made a great point on this, and you need to try to get this out because it's important. The majority of homosexual relationships are not monogamous. They're not. I mean, I'm from New York City and the lifestyle and the majority of homosexual relationships are not monogamous. And what Dr. White says, If that's true, which it isn't true, why isn't he talking about the ones, why isn't he talking about the wrath of God on the ones that are not in a monogamous relationship? So, and I think that, please, it's only a few minutes, but please go on that, because that's gigantic, because what it is is, it's the love game, it's the love factor, it's more the emotion, but he's not going to talk about the ones that are outside that, that are homosexuals, where the wrath of God would be on them. Well, that is one, to me, one of the really hypocritical elements of the alleged gay Christian movement, and that is they want to talk about honoring the gospel and things like that, but they do not. I have yet to see any one of these individuals either enunciate a clear understanding of the gospel and call people to repentance and faith, because that would require defining sin, and that's the one thing they have to fight against anyone defining in the first place. or the absolute recognition on the part of David Gushie that it would be necessary if he is going to say, now it was interesting, I listened to his first presentation at the Reformation Project. I'm responding to it right now in my own program. And it's a must-see. And when he makes the statement that he believes that these relationships should be monogamous, lifelong relationships, the applause he got for that was significantly less powerful and enthusiastic than he had been getting for almost all the other things that he had been saying. Because there's another side to that. Exactly. And everybody in that audience recognized that he was now going into an area that a lot of them weren't overly excited about following him into that at all. There should have been, if this is actually a Christian gathering, a consistent application of a call to repentance to all those homosexuals in the audience. who were in any way shape or form violating a monogamous relationship. But there was no call for that, because there can't be. You've already cut out the grounds of making any kind of authoritative proclamation in regards to the nature of sin, let alone talking about the wrath of God. These people don't want to hear about the wrath of God. They don't want a God who has wrath, which means they don't want a God who has a cross, because you cannot even begin to understand the necessity of the cross, the nature of the cross, what's really going on in the atonement, if you don't have the wrath of God. It's simply not possible to understand those things. And of course, I would say that part of this goes back to, you know, we're sort of paying the debts of the church here, because for a long period of time, we have allowed our theology to be determined by what people want to hear. And as a result, we have raised a generation of people that have a very sentimental view of the cross and of the atonement. And the idea for most people is, when you look at the cross, all you see is the love of God. And I would like to wake everybody up who's driving or anything else and say, if you look at the cross, if you do not see the wrath of God against sin, His holiness, His justice, His righteousness, then you are not seeing the cross. And the reality is, the love that is seen there is only seen in its proper context, its proper glory, its proper brightness, against the backdrop of that holiness and that justice and that righteousness. If you don't see all of it, the result is you only see part of it, and you don't have a foundation any longer for resisting these very things, defining what the gospel is, etc., etc. And you see what Dr. White does, he gets the gospel in, the gospel of repentance and faith, and that's what I think they alleviate in the Reformation Project. Anyway, thanks again for listening to Koinonia on Faith Talk 1360 KPXU. We have another 13 or 14 minutes more with Dr. White. If you want to call, give us a call at 602-274-1360. I'm Pastor Dominic Romaldi filling in for Tom Brown today, and today we're talking about same-sex controversy. And Dr. Wyatt has enlightened us on a lot of issues, the Reformation Project, obviously, and then he took us through Genesis and looked at that beautiful illustration of the mirror. But he did want to get back to Romans 1, and I think that's appropriate because we want to try to cover all bases in the short period of time we have. And this is the usurping of God's created order of how man and woman should be one in marriage, in monogamy. So this is that usurping. And I think Dr. White will help us a little bit with some Greek terms here that can really help us understand what Paul is saying. So Dr. White, can you enlighten us on this chapter one of Romans 25 through 27? I honestly think that for almost any Christian today, if you want to be salt and light in a dark and dying society, you really should take some time to familiarize yourself very closely with Romans chapter 1. I cannot think of any other text in the Bible that has more insight into the nature of man. You need to have a biblical anthropology. You need to understand man as God is revealed to be rather than how psychology or psychiatry is revealed to be. God's the one who made him. God knows him far better than we know ourselves. I wrote a book in, I think, 2004 called The God Who Justifies. There is a fairly lengthy chapter in the book on Romans chapter 1, exegeting it, bringing out what it means, and it has application to so many things. This just happens to be one area that it has application in. And what we need to understand is that when Paul is not singling out homosexuality as the be-all and end-all of all evils in Romans chapter 1, what he's illustrating is the fact of the relationship between God and man and the result of what sin is. He has said that God has revealed himself clearly in what has been made, so that man is unapologetus, without an apologetic. An apologetic is a reasoned defense, and so man cannot come up with a consistent, reasonable defense of his rejection of God, because God has left his fingerprints all over creation, not only outside us, but internally within us as well. And then what he says is that when we engage in rebellion, there is a fundamental twisting that takes place within ourselves. If he's the source of life, we are cutting ourselves off from the source of life, and this becomes the source of the culture of death that we see around us even to this day. And so there is a twisting of the creator-creation relationship. They've exchanged the truth that they receive from God for the lie, and they've worshipped and served the created order rather than the creator who is blessed forever. And the result is a darkening of the mind. We sometimes embrace a Greek view of man, to where you have the body and the soul and the spirit and the mind and all these different things, and we compartmentalize things. The biblical view of man is very much holistic, so that you can't sin in your body without that impacting you spiritually and, amazingly—this is almost illegal in the United States to say this—it also affects your mind. People in our country believe that the mind is the final bastion. God has no control there. You're perfectly autonomous there. You're not influenced by anything around you. The Bible says that's ridiculous. If you've cut yourself off from the very source of divine light, you are now stumbling in the darkness. And professing yourself to be wise, you will become a fool. And that is the very term that is used there. It is in that context of God giving men over to the lusts of their heart, giving men over to what they love as rebellious creatures that homosexuality has raised. Because what it illustrates is how at the very fundamental, natural level of man's created being, sin can even twist the foundations itself. Because look, let's face it, procreation requires a male and a female even today even with our all of our scientific advancements i mean even if someday we can get rid of that uh... it will be a at massive costs and a massive danger and everyone recognizes that's really bad idea uh... and you know if you would think that someone might want to read nineteen eighty four again you know uh... no one reason anymore but i would highly recommend it to people uh... we've been warned about what this all about at the fundamental level, we recognize that procreation is necessary for the continuation of the species. So there is this just basic level, and even at that basic level, the foundations can become twisted by that rebellion against God. And that's what he's talking about in Romans chapter 1. So sin's got a power then, right? Sin's got a power. And it's extremely damaging to the image bearer, the one who's created in the image of God. Once you reject that God exists, you cannot reject God without that fundamentally altering yourself. And homosexuality is one of the ultimate examples that is given of that kind of twistedness that results from rebellion against God. And so There is no question that verses 26 and 27, Romans chapter 1, and there are numerous homosexual scholars who have confirmed this. We can give you all sorts of quotations. There's an excellent book by Dr. Robert Gagnon, and I highly recommend his work on this subject, where he will provide you with page after page after page where homosexual scholars admit the Bible is unequivocally negative toward all expression of homosexual behavior. They just simply reject that the Bible has authority, and you go from there. But even they recognize that you cannot twist Paul, but that doesn't mean there are not dozens of books out there that try to twist what Paul is saying here. And they'll say that what we've got in Romans chapter 1 is, well, it's actually, you know, back then you had the rich man and the little boy and it's pederasty and it's things like that. And I would just recommend, folks, go on YouTube, and watch my debate with Barry Lynn on this subject. This is from like 2001. I was in my weightlifting stage then, so I was a whole lot bigger than I am now. And now I'm in my cycling stage again, and I was in my weightlifting stage back then. But watch the cross-examination, because that's when a debate takes place is cross-examination. And if you watch the cross-examination in that debate, first of all, neither of the two major opponents that I have engaged in this subject on a debate called, Is Homosexuality Compatible with Biblical Christianity, brought a Bible to the debate, including Barry Lynn. So I had to let him borrow my Bible, and we're discussing Romans 1. Listen to the cross-examination as I try to walk him through Romans chapter 1, and watch as he absolutely collapses falls apart, becomes very angry because he's used to being on CNN throwing little softball questions. He's not used to talking to someone who's, you know, I was writing the book at that time and so on and so forth, teach Greek, et cetera, et cetera. So watch that examination. You will see that all of the excuses that people try to come up with, and of course we dealt with it in the same-sex controversy as well, all the excuses people try to come up with simply fall apart. For example, as I mentioned, they say, well, it's the older man with a little child. Read what it says. burning with lust toward one another. This is a mutual relationship he's talking about here. This isn't just one person buying a sex slave. This is a mutual, homosexual relationship that is being described here. You just can't get around what is being said here. There's no way around it. And very, very quickly, Paul also uses another term. He doesn't use it in Romans 1. He uses it in 1 Corinthians 6. And this is important, I'll try to be quick. In 1 Corinthians 6, he uses two phrases. He says, Now, that has been translated in various ways. The ESV, I think, renders it exactly right. It takes both of them and simply says, neither homosexuals. Why? Molokoi means soft. Arsenokoitae, Paul probably coined the phrase, drawing from the terms found in Leviticus chapter 18 and Leviticus chapter 20. The Greek septuagint is the background of much of Paul's language. When you bring them together, it is the active and passive male in a homosexual relationship. And the ESV has accurately rendered that as homosexuals. If you want to see how politics has influenced even the creation of our Greek lexicons today, if you look at the Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, and Donker Greek lexicon, the old green one, the second edition, and then look at BDAG, the Bauer, Donker, Arndt, Gingrich third edition, the more pepto-bismol colored one that you'd be familiar with. If you compare the two and look up Arsene Coetes, do this. The entry triples in size between those two editions. Why? Simply because of all of the political papers that were published on that particular term in that time period. It's not that there was anything that was found that was actually relevant, but even the definition changed between those things, all from a political perspective. And may I just point out very quickly, I'm not sure how much time we've got here. Two, three minutes. We've got enough time here. Yes, good. Fifty-four. Alright, so let me really make sure people understand this. When you go to 1 Corinthians chapter 6, Paul lists an entire series of sins. It's one of his vice lists, and then I want you to hear exactly what he says. Give it to us. He points out that he talks about, do you not know, verse 9, that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God, do not be deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers. NASB says, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals. Those are the two phrases that ESV has put into one. Nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. Now, then he says this, such were some of you. And here's what people need to understand. The quote-unquote gay Christian movement is saying to you and I as Christians, federal judges are saying to you and I as Christians, the Supreme Court of the United States is going to be suggesting, most probably, to you and I as Christians, that we need to change the verb which is the 1, 2, 3, 4th word in verse 11 in the Greek language. Now, I've looked at this. There are no textual variants that are relevant to this passage. All the manuscripts say the same thing. Such were some of you, and then you have the adversative allah afterwards. But you were redeemed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God. We are being told we can no longer believe this, because if we believe this, what he's saying is, that was all in the past. Now, something new has come. Now, something has changed. And what the gay Christian movement is saying is, and such are some of you, and you all need to celebrate the fact that you continue in that lifestyle. That's what we're being told. That's what we're being told. And we need to start telling people that. You are telling me that I need to reject the authority of my scriptures, and that I need to reject the authority of Jesus Christ, who gave himself for me on Calvary's tree. That is what you are telling people to do. And unfortunately, a lot of Christians, unfortunately, when they are given the opportunity, because they are undergoing persecution or something like that, don't know the subject well enough to be able to express that. That's something that we all need to be thinking through. Be prepared to give that answer when the opportunity is given to us. This is a gospel issue. There is no way around it. And such were some of you. If you're tuning in, you'll listen to Cohen here on Faith Talk 1360 KPXQ. I'm Pastor Dominic Romaldi, and we'll be back in a few minutes. Welcome to Koinonia on Faith Talk 1360 KPXQ. I am Pastor Dominic Romali, filling in for Tom Brown today, and today we have talked about the same-sex controversy. And what I want to do is I really want to thank Dr. White. We have about two minutes and 20 seconds, and if he can leave me 20 seconds, just a final exit. And I want to just give him to you, and I think there's some things that you really need to listen to. If you're really interested in this, if you really want the truth of God's Word, Something that we can stand on as Christians. I think he's doing something on dividing line that I I think I he wants to invite you to listen to dr. White Well, let me let people know the Dividing Line is a webcast we do. Normally we do it twice a week. This week I'm only doing it once because I'm doing so many other things on radio, but you can get it through iTunes, YouTube, other, well for now anyways. I keep doing this type of subject and I guarantee you that won't be the case. But right now I am doing a multi-hour response to Dr. David Gushie. He gave a presentation at the Reformation Project. on ending the teaching of slander against the Church of Sexual Minorities, contempt, ending the teaching of contempt against the Church of Sexual Minorities. And I am playing the entirety of his presentation and responding to all of it. So I'm not just taking portions, I'm playing all of it. And it should end up being about as long as my response to Matthew Vines, which ended up being five hours. So one hour of his presentation, four hours of my response. Hopefully I'll be finishing it up on Wednesday of this week. If not, we'll have to go a little bit longer than that. But I think it's vitally important to respond in toto to what the gay Christian movement is saying and to demonstrate that we have the answers to everything they're saying. We're not making excuses. We're not hiding. This isn't just bigotry. This isn't just discrimination. This is forced upon us by the very nature of the biblical gospel and the the revelation of Scripture, and therefore it is a quote-unquote hill to die on, and that's why we're addressing it. Amen. Dr. James White, Pastor Jason Smathers, Mrs. Rachel Grimaldi, and Jeremy Behind the Glass, thanks again for listening to Koinonia on Faith Talk 1360 KPXQ. I'm Pastor Dominic Grimaldi. I had a great time guest hosting for Tom Brown. Thank you, and we'll see you next time. And this is Pastor Dominic Grimaldi with Street Talk Theology, and that ends our two-part series with Dr. James White on same-sex marriage, taken from Faith Talk, 1360 AM, KPXQ in Phoenix. You know we take our theology and bring it to the streets. See you guys next week. God bless. Thank you for joining us for Street Talk Theology with Pastor Dominic Grimaldi. You can visit Pastor Dom at Desert Sky Baptist Church at 891 West Corson Road, Casa Grande. And for more information, visit us online at www.desertskybaptist.org.