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Knowing the Truth with Pastor Kevin Bowling is a live call-in radio program providing doctrinal dialogue, cultural commentary, and insightful interviews with some of today's foremost Christian authors and leaders. Knowing the Truth is the outreach ministry of the Mountain Bridge Bible Fellowship located on Highway 25 in Traveler's Rest. The goal of the church and the radio program is to seek the glory of God in the salvation of sinners and the sanctification of the saints. by the Ministry of the Word. For more information, go to www.knowingthetruth.org. Here with today's edition of Knowing the Truth is Pastor Kevin Bowling. Hey, welcome into this edition of the Knowing the Truth radio broadcast. This is Pastor Kevin Bolling. So glad that you have joined us today on the Knowing the Truth radio broadcast. I was reading an article recently, and this was out at tvguide.com, and it says this. It says, Kirsten Dunst defends controversial comments on gender roles. I don't know if you've been following this controversy, big controversy. that has taken place with this actress, but the article says this, despite her controversial comments regarding the importance of gender roles in relationships, Kirsten Dunst insists she is a feminist. The actress has recently come under fire for telling Harper's Bazaar, quote, I feel the feminine has been a little undervalued. We have to get our own jobs and make our own money, but staying at home, nurturing, being a mother, cooking, it's a valuable thing that my mom created, unquote. She then goes on to make this quote as well. She says, quote, and sometimes you need your knight in shining armor. I'm sorry, you need a man to be a man and a woman to be a woman. That's why relationships work." Well, that was her comment that she made a while back, and suddenly after making those comments, there was a flurry of criticism that took place The article then goes on to say this after the criticism came out. It says, now she is defending her remarks to flaunt, I think that's another magazine, explaining her words were misconstrued. I was talking about my mother. Obviously, I'm a feminist, Dunst clarified. It's ridiculous that anyone would think other of me." Well, remarkable comments that are made there by Kirsten Dunst. You know, she seemed to have a candid moment where she talked about the differences between men and women, and specifically in gender roles. And yet, that type of candid reaction is not allowed in our society today. She received a tremendous amount of criticism for it, so much so that here we find her recanting that statement, or at least trying to clarify it to do away with some of the criticism. Well, that's what we want to talk about on the program today. We want to talk about what is God's blueprint for men and women. Well, we want to talk about the idea of the difference between men and women, a difference that is there by design. Well, there's a brand new book out called, a similar title to that, it's called Different by Design, and the author of that book is Kerry Sandem. It says this in the opening part out on the website, Christian Focus website, it says, men and women are created in the image of God to reflect God's own nature in being, to reflect the perfect equality, diversity, and unity of the Trinity. Cary Sandam presents the biblical view of gender roles for marriage, the church, and the workplace, and shows how they fit into modern context. Well, that's exactly what we need to see. What does the Bible have to say about this issue? And as it's added there at the end of that paragraph, How does that fit into a modern context? Joining us now on the program is Carrie Sandom. She's the Associate Minister for Women and Pastoral Care at St. John's Church in Tunbridge Wells in the UK. She also has served in women and student ministries for almost 20 years. She just recently was one of the keynote speakers at the Gospel Coalition event that took place in Orlando, Florida, and the book that she has written is published by Christian Focus. That's www.christianfocus.com. Kerry joins us now all the way from the UK via Skype. Kerry, it's a pleasure to have you on the Knowing the Truth radio broadcast. Well, thank you for your welcome and your invitation. Carrie, I wanted to start off by maybe just seeing if we could get your comment on that news item that I mentioned. Your thoughts? Well, I have only heard what you've told me just now, and I don't know really what Kirsten Dunst thinks. She's obviously having to retract some of what she said. But I find it very sad that somebody who clearly appreciates all that her mother did for her is now having to say that that's not really how it should be today. I find that very sad. And I fear that our culture and our society undervalues the nurturing role that women have, and particularly the great role that our own mothers had with us in previous generations. In your comment there, you just said our culture and our society. Could we even add, in some ways, our church today? The church as well is buying into that philosophy as well? I think there is that every indication that the church is doing so. The churches that I've had the privilege of working in are trying to stem that particular tide. But I fear that the church, in order to be seen to be credible in the 21st century, is inevitably adopting many of the values that our culture has. And that's a mistake. So there seems to be some sort of a rising evangelical feminism that is taking hold in the Church today. Is that an accurate statement? I think so. The evangelical feminists, I think, are narrowing their definition of what it means to be equal with men, and see it purely in functional terms. So I think that's a misunderstanding of the biblical definition of equality, and I think it's getting them into all sorts of problems. Well, your book certainly deals with this head-on. You do an excellent job laying out the case here in the book, the biblical case for the difference by design, as the title of the book says. The opening chapter, and I was hoping that maybe we could just work our way through your book a little bit, but the opening chapter It has the same title as the book, Different by Design. And there's a newsflash in here for our listening audience. Men and women are different. That's the newsflash for today. And you talk about that difference and you really spell it out. in a number of different ways. You talk about, you know, different ways that we react, different ways that we relate to different things. Spell that out a little bit, men and women are not the same, you put in your book, and talk about all the ways, or some of the ways that you list there anyways, that men and women are not the same. Well, you know, I still go back to that opening scenario. I was on a tube train in London some years ago, and on a Saturday night, and on that particular night, there were different groups of men and women talking about all sorts of things. Now it may be stereotypical, and I know I get criticized for this, for generalizing, but there were men talking about the football game they'd just been to. There were women talking about the shoes they'd just bought in Selfridges. And just the way that they spend their leisure time, men and women are different. The way they relate to one another, men with men and women with women, is different. I remember one conversation, there were a group of men talking about the injuries they had inflicted on each other in a street brawl in Scotland. Now, women don't talk like that. The men were laughing. Women don't talk like that when they relate with one another. We are wired differently, and I think that is because of God's design. He intended for us to be different. I believe it was in your book that I read the story about the woman that was standing, was it on a bus or on a train, and a fella attempted to give her his seat. Would you recount that story for our listening audience as well? Yes, very happily. Again, it was on a train in London some years ago, and there was a heavily pregnant woman standing in the train carriage, and a young man in his 20s offered her his seat, which I thought was a very chivalrous thing to do and entirely appropriate. But she really tore him off a strip and said that he was wrong to assume that she couldn't stand, and that it was people like him today who made men into chauvinists, and that she really just went to town. This poor guy, he sat back down in his seat, was very, very red, clearly very embarrassed. And he will never offer a woman a seat again. Now what I found particularly sad about this episode was that he got out at the next station. I don't know whether that's where he really needed to go, but he needed to have sent himself, I think, from embarrassment and shame. And as soon as he'd left the train, she sat down in his seat, which I found very bizarre. Why could she not just say, �Thank you?� Why does she have to make a point and infer that he thinks she's inferior and unable to stand on a train? I find that attitude very, very sad. You point out a number of those differences with acquaintances and friends, the way that men look at those relationships versus the way that women do. Harsh words and negative criticism, you know, you talk about in that section that the type of criticism that men use on a regular basis with each other would just absolutely devastate a woman to have that same type of criticism, right? Is that the gist of that section? Yes, very much so. And again, there's a danger of generalizing this. And I'm drawing on my own experiences, inevitably, in a lot of this. But I well remember a church staff meeting where the senior pastor was giving some feedback and criticism to the junior pastor about a sermon that he'd preached. And just the way in which he did it, the fact that he was quite curt, he didn't want to take a lot of time over it, he just told him the five or six things that were wrong with it, didn't affirm him in any way, and then moved on. Now, if he'd said that to me about a talk that I'd given to the women in the church, I would have been utterly crushed and devastated. But what intrigued me was that this junior pastor didn't seem particularly about it, he just wrote down the points and said he agreed with many of them, and that was the end of it. So I think what's going on there is that when men talk to each other in those ways, it doesn't actually affect the relationship that they have with each other. A few hours later, these two men were playing cricket with the senior pastor's kids in the church garden. There was no problem in the way they related together. But if women hear that kind of crushing criticism, it does affect the relationship. And it is utterly devastating. Now again, I think that's a reflection of the differences between men and women. Men can relate without it affecting them very emotionally, whereas women find it almost impossible to hear criticism and for it not to be heard as an attack on them as a person. Mm-hmm. You close out that chapter then by using a statement that people have probably heard quite often, the idea of equal but different. Just elaborate on that, if you would, please, as we just close out our discussion on that opening chapter, different by design. Well, I think we are equal in our status and in our dignity. We are all made in the image of God. That is a position of great privilege in creation. But that equality is intrinsic to our very being. It's not just talking about our function. Indeed, I think God has designed us to function very differently. So men and women have different roles to play within the family. within the reproduction and the nurture of children, and also within the church family. I think God has designed us differently to have different roles, and without one another working together and doing those roles together, family life and church family life is somehow incomplete. So we are equal and in status we are different in function and together we bring complementarity to one another. Hmm. Equal in status, you said, and dignity, but different in function and in the roles that we play. There's the gist, I think, of where you're getting to in your book. Let me remind our listening audience we're speaking with Carrie Sandom. She's the author of the book, Different by Design, God's Blueprint for Men and Women. The book is published by Christian Focus. That's www.christianfocus.com, and so you can go out there in order to get a copy of the book. Well, Kerry, in the second chapter of the book, then, you deal with a very important aspect of this, and that is the pattern for God's design and you go all the way back to look at the Trinity itself and find the pattern there. So important that we see that in the Trinity. If you would, elaborate on what you look at in the Trinity and how that relates to this discussion about gender roles. Yes, sure. This is so important because the pattern for our design is God himself. The relationships within the Trinity show that there is equality and yet diversity in the roles that each member of the Trinity has. They are united and they are one, but they are three persons. and they are all equally divine. There's no sense in which the Holy Spirit is more divine than the Lord Jesus, or that God the Son is more divine than God the Father. They are all equally divine, but they have different roles to play in creation, in redemption, in our sanctification, and so forth. So the very pattern of our design is actually found within the Godhead itself. There is equality and unity, there is diversity, and crucially, there is order. So God the Son submits himself to God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit submits himself to the Son and also to the Father. And it's that ordering of relationships that is to be seen within the marriage relationship and indeed within the church family as well. We're basically, for theological terms, we're talking about the essence of the Trinity versus the economy of the Trinity. And in the economy of the Trinity, we're talking about those roles that each assume in the, as you were talking about, the role of creation, redemption, the ongoing work of redemption and sanctification and so forth. And there we see the son voluntarily subordinating himself to the father. Remarkable passages. Scripture, of course, with Philippians chapter 2, talking about him humbling himself and becoming a servant. coming to earth and taking to himself human flesh in order to accomplish the work. Kind of the father is seen as the administrator of the covenant. The son is seen as the executor. He's the one who accomplishes the things that the father has given him to do. And then the Holy Spirit applies the aspects, the benefits of redemption to the believers. But we see that each one is equal in power and glory, substance, power and glory. and as well as though taking on a diversity of operation in those roles. That's an excellent place to turn to in looking at this and the unity that is spoken of there is something that in the order are things that we should really focus on, right? Absolutely, absolutely. Because For men and women and the way that we relate together and the way that we function together in the family and in the church family, you know, men on their own cannot adequately nurture children. You need men and women together to nurture children. Similarly, I think in the church family, you need men and women working together in order to disciple men and women. And that's how I think that God has designed it, so that there is a unity of focus, but a difference in function, and we see that right within the Trinity itself. From the idea then of the pattern that we see in the Trinity, looking at what the Scripture tells us about the Trinity, we then see the actual revelation of God's design. God has revealed this to us in His Word, and primarily we're talking about the opening chapters in the book of Genesis. Speak to us a little bit about what you write in that chapter on the revelation of God's design. Well, those chapters at the beginning of Genesis are absolutely foundational. In Genesis 1, we have the account of the creation, Genesis 2. We have a more sort of microscopic view of what happens when he creates the man and the woman. Genesis 1 shows us that God is all-powerful. that his intention is that all things are good, all that he creates is very good. But crucially, the difference comes on day six when he creates humanity. He says, �Let us make man in our own image.� Now immediately we see that there are relationships within the Godhead. He's talking to himself at that point, let us make man. And so humanity is made in the image of God, distinct from all of the rest of creation. But in Genesis 2, when we focus down a little bit further on what happens on day six, we see that the command about how to live in the Garden of Eden is given to Adam before Eve is created. indicating that he has a leadership role in the family that she doesn't share, and that he is to teach her what it means to enjoy God's blessings in the garden, and crucially, what tree they are forbidden to eat the fruit from. So those chapters are foundational in showing that we are equal and made in the image of God, and yet God has given us different roles within the family. the men to lead, and the women to be the helper. Now, some people get very upset about that term. They think it's very derogatory, but of course, in the Psalms, God is described as a helper to Israel. It is not a derogatory role. It is simply saying that in order for Adam to lead, he needs somebody to help him. And in order for their life to go well in the garden, Eve is to submit to the leadership of Adam because God has ordered it in that way. A term that we use to talk about that interrelational aspect between men and women is the term complementarian. I don't know how many people in our listening audience have been following these discussions in the church very closely, but there's two terms, egalitarian and complementarian. Egalitarian would say that Men and women are equal in all aspects, including the roles that they play. Complementarian would say, no, they complement each other in the roles that they've been given by God. Although, as we've made the point already, there's an equality in their status before God, there is definitely a diversity in the way that they are created, And because of that diversity, then, that there needs to be a complementarian role that is played by both of them. Just if you would develop that idea of the complementarian aspect of this. Well, let me clear up a misunderstanding straight away that I come across a lot. This is complementarian, they're all Es. It's not giving compliments with an I to each other. Okay, let me just clear that up, okay? We're not talking about giving compliments to one another. It's complementarian with an E in the middle, bringing completeness to one another. And I think the easiest way of understanding this is that those who have an egalitarian position on the roles and the nature and the function of men and women would say that there needs to be equality in the sense of they need to be identical across the board. So they are equal in status and there are no differences in function. Whereas the complementarian view, looking at the pages of scripture, in particular these early chapters of Genesis, is saying we are certainly equal but there is a functional diversity that is important and an ordering of relationships that is to reflect those within the Trinity. And it's very clear in Genesis chapter 2 that God says it's not good for Adam to be alone. He makes Eve in order to complete him in some sense. They bring completion to one another and it is only together they can actually fulfill God's purposes of subduing the earth and having a family. Yeah, the first malediction that we find in the Bible, up until that point, there were all these benedictions, it is good, it is good, it is good, and so forth. And then all of a sudden we read, it is not good. I think it was Del Tackett in the Truth Project who referred to that as a divine pause. He wasn't saying that what God had created was not good. What he was talking about was that he wasn't done. And then in creating the woman, this completeness that you're talking about, Now the human race is complete because now both parts of it are created, both man and woman, and that completeness is what he was referring to there as being good afterwards. But first there was a malediction that was delivered there. This is exactly what we see in the New Testament Scripture. This is confirmed in the Bible, that relationship, right? When we open up the Scripture, we look at not just at Genesis, the opening book, but all throughout the rest of the Bible, we find that same attitude held and confirmed throughout the Scripture. Absolutely right. In fact, those passages from Genesis are often picked up in the New Testament Scriptures, adding a further consistency, if you like, throughout Scripture. So, for example, when Paul talks about Christian marriage in Ephesians 5, he quotes from Genesis 2.24. And says that the ideal was that a man should leave his father and mother and be united with his wife, and together they should become one flesh. He's affirming Christian marriage, but he's using passages from those early chapters of Genesis. But similarly, when he's talking about the need for wives to submit to their husbands, He's talking about the good order of the pre-fall marriage, and he's saying in order to get back to how God intended marriage to be, wives should submit to their husbands and accept their leadership, and husbands should love their wives sacrificially. And I think these two things will enable the marriage to function as God intended. Similarly, in 1 Timothy, when he is talking about the relationships and the leadership within the church, he quotes from these early chapters of Genesis to explain that the ordering of their creation is significant. Adam first, Eve second, and that ordering needs to be demonstrated within the local church. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I want to delve down into that a little bit deeper and talk a little bit then about the next chapter, which is the rejection of God's design. But before we do that, we have to take a quick commercial break. We'll just be a few minutes here as we go to break. Let me remind our listening audience that we're speaking with Carrie Sandem and we're talking about her book which is called Different by Design, God's Blueprint for Men and Women. And the book is published by Christian Focus, that's Christian Focus Publishing. You can go out to their website at www.christianfocus.com That's www.christianfocus.com. We've already looked at a number of aspects of the book, the difference by design, the pattern of God's design, and so forth. We'll look at more when we come back from the break. You're listening to Knowing the Truth with Pastor Kevin Bowling. For more information about today's program, the radio ministry, and the resources we offer, go to www.knowingthetruth.org. Welcome back to Knowing the Truth with Pastor Kevin Bowling. Information regarding the resources referenced on today's program can be found at www.knowingthetruth.org. Now here to continue with today's program is Pastor Kevin Bowling. Hey, welcome back into the second half of the Knowing the Truth radio broadcast. We've been in a discussion about the difference of gender and gender roles as we find them listed for us in the Word of God, and the way that those gender and gender roles are viewed not only in the home, but in society and in the church as well. We've been doing that or having that discussion around a new book that has just been published called Different by Design, God's Blueprint for Men and Women. The author of that book is Kerry Sandem. We've been talking with Kerry about this subject and how this going through it systematically through her book here, because I want you to understand we decided today to have a full hour discussion with Carrie on this subject, because I think it's that important in our church today. We have a lot of evangelical feminism that has grabbed hold of much of the church today, And I think that we really need to understand this issue from a Christian and biblical perspective, and therefore I wanted to give a little bit more time to it on the broadcast today. We've already talked about a number of issues or a number of chapters in the book. First of all, looking at the idea that men and women are different, different by design. And then we looked at the pattern that we should be looking at, and the pattern is found in the Trinity itself, in God Almighty Himself. He is replicating in us what is in Him. We are created in His image. And we are seeing that image on display, not only in us individually, but in the roles and the responsibilities that are given to men and women in society again, and in the church, and in a home, and so forth. And so we went all the way back to look at the Trinity itself, And then we looked at the revelation of God that is given to us specifically beginning, of course, in Genesis, the opening chapters of Genesis, but it's not just found there. It's actually a teaching that is replicated then throughout the entire 66 books of God's revealed revelation. I want to talk now about the rejection of that. I heard a term years ago, and I think it was one of our most popular broadcasts when I first did it on the Knowing the Truth radio broadcast, but it comes under various names, but this particular one was dealing with the feminization of America was the idea of what we talked about And maybe we could bring that even into the church and talk about the feminization of evangelicalism or the feminization of the church. Carrie, in this section, deals with the subject of the rejection of God's design, and she starts by talking about the fact that, giving a little bit of a story here about a couple and their children, and how the wife is at church, and the children are going to church kind of intermittently, and the husband is at home. And one of the reasons why the husband is at home, he seems to be MIA, missing from action, but one of the reasons that he's at home may be because of what has happened in the church, the feminization of the church itself. Kerry, if you would, comment a little bit, or retell that story that you list in the beginning of this, as to what may be the reason why Greg, in this situation, is not at church. Well, it's an all-too-common phenomenon in our churches here in the UK, certainly, but The moms are bringing the kids to church, but the dads are staying at home. And my reason for delving into this issue is that I wonder if, at the same time as the feminization of the church, we've actually seen the emasculation of the church, in that church is no longer a place where men feel comfortable, They're heavily outnumbered by women, for a start. And the fact that women are all the time pushing to do the things which I think men should be doing means that the men have no role, and they just absent themselves. I think very often our churches are very feminized, even in their decor. you know, with soft furnishings and fluffy cushions and all the rest of it. And men just feel very uncomfortable with that. And we need to be very careful that in wanting to promote the right ministry of women, we don't actually push the men out. And I think this is what's been going on in many churches. But of course, The fact remains that where are the strong men who will lead the church and who will provide good role models for the husbands, the dads, the sons in their congregations? And again, I wonder if the rejection of God's design that we see in Genesis 3, I wonder if that has had a devastating impact, not only on our relationships with one another, but also on the church. What we see in Genesis 3 is that Eve reverses the created order. She's enticed by the serpent to take the lead. over Adam, and he lets her do it. We're told that she is persuaded by the serpent that she can eat of the forbidden fruit, and Adam is right with her, but says nothing. He doesn't say, �No, we mustn't do this, and you mustn't do this, and God's told me that this is devastating if we do this.� He lets her take it, and then he himself takes it too. He allows Eve to take the lead, and the consequences are devastating. and the commandment that God has given them. But that has an impact both in the way they relate to God the Father, but also with their relationships with the rest of creation, the chaos and decay enters in at that point, but also within the relationship they have with one another. God punishes them. And it's very interesting that they're hiding amongst the trees, aren't they? They can hear God coming in the cool of the day, but they hide amongst the trees. And God calls out to Adam, where are you? It's very clear that he sees Adam as the leader of the family. But he punishes them for their sin. And each of their punishments has both a present dimension and a future dimension. For Adam, working the ground is going to be the pattern of his life now. No longer is he going to be able to feed his family just by taking fruit off the trees. He's going to be banished from the garden, and he's going to have to work the ground for food, and it's going to be hard toil. Similarly for Eve. It's going to be hard labor of giving birth to children and nurturing them. That is the part of the present judgment that she has to endure. But both of them have the future judgment as well, that they will die and return to the dust, just as God intended. But they're gonna battle with one another. God says to Eve that her desire will be for her husband, and he will rule over her. And there we have, as a consequence of their rejection of God's good order, the battle of the sexes, and it's part of the consequences of their rebellion. She will now seek to usurp the position that her husband should have, and he will respond by ruling over her. Now, men do that, I think, in different ways. We see the battle of the sexes being portrayed around us in society all the time. Sometimes, men will respond to the usurping tendency of women by dominating them and crushing them, and at times, using physical violence, and of course, we would deplore that. But other times, they do it just by abdicating responsibility altogether and letting the women take control and take the lead. And so what I think we're seeing in the church is that the women are very often filling the vacuum that the men have left. They have absented themselves, and they have abdicated their responsibility to lead, and women are all too eager to jump into them. Time and time again, when I was working with students, they were saying, the women students I was working with, if we left this task to the men, it would never get done. We have to do it. And so it becomes a vicious circle. The men take a step back because the women are too forceful. But because the men are not there, the women end up doing the roles that only men should do. And so it continues. I just emphasized this point recently in a series that I've been preaching. I've been preaching through Hebrews chapter 11. We've been most recently looking at Hebrews chapter 11 and verse 32, where the apostle basically says, you know, what more shall I say? And then he gives a list of folks that he doesn't have time to go into telling how they relate to living a life of faith, but he just mentions them. And one of them is Barak. And of course, we turned to the passage and judges and looked at Barak and the relationship with Barak and Deborah. You can't tell the story of Barak without mentioning Deborah, because she's such an integral part to what was taking place there. And when we got to that story and the record of it there in the Word of God, we find that Barak is reluctant to take his responsibility. And once he hears the Word of the Lord, he knows what the Word of the Lord is that's been revealed to them, but he won't go do it unless she goes along with him. I'll go up, but only... And I was chiding and confronting lovingly the men in our congregation and saying, so often men will go to that passage in order to zero in on the fact that Deborah shouldn't have been in that position that she was in. And yet the real message there is that men had abrogated their responsibility. She had a better relationship with God than he did. She understood that God's revelation had come and that that was all that they needed to go to the battle and win the victory. He was still relying upon, he wanted something more tangible and wanted her to go along with him. And was leaning upon her relationship with God and so forth. And so we use that to say, you know, men are MIA here. They're missing in action, and he needs to stand up and assume his responsibility before God and cultivate that relationship with God. They should have been jealous of her relationship and then cultivated that type of relationship with God himself rather than lean upon what she had. And what a picture of what we see in the church today. The charismatic movement is almost completely run by women, and much of that, even in Reform circles, and even in much of the evangelical church today, as you pointed out, the women are taking the lead, in many cases, primarily because of the absence and the unwillingness of men to cultivate their relationship with God and then assume the responsibilities that He's given to them. Would you agree? Absolutely, and it's having a devastating effect on the church's mission to men. I mean, here in the UK, with the ordination of women and so forth, many of our smaller congregations are now being led by women, but they have almost a zero impact on the men in their communities. It's having a devastating impact It chokes you up just to think about it, doesn't it? It does me. I'm joking. I know that I'll give you a chance there to grab a quick drink of water, but this is exactly what we see taking place, and there are some movements within the Church today, and unfortunately, this really shouldn't be relegated to movements. because this is the main message of the Word of God. This is the way that God's design was for men to be taking the lead in these various roles that we see, not only in the home, but in the church and in society as well. And Let me ask you a specific question on that before we move on to the restoration of this, but do you feel that this applies in society, that a woman shouldn't be in a position of authority in society? You're in the UK, so let me use as an example there a Margaret Thatcher over here in the U.S. We might point to somebody like a Sarah Palin or something among the conservatives, you know, would you say that she doesn't belong in that role even in a societal way, or is the instruction in the Word of God given to us only related to the fact of running the, you know, roles within the church and in the home? Well, I think Christians do think differently on this issue, but for myself, I think that I think women can take positions of leadership in society, providing that it doesn't undermine the leadership of their husbands or indeed of their church leaders. So I take it that it was entirely appropriate for Margaret Thatcher to be a prime minister because she wasn't exercising any sort of spiritual leadership over men. So I think women can work as doctors and teachers and they can be hospital consultants. And they should take those positions, as long as it doesn't undermine the leadership of their husbands, if they're married, or indeed have a detrimental effect on the nurture of their children, if indeed they're mums. So I know others would think more strongly on that, but I take it that in Genesis 1, The creation mandate is that they should subdue creation together, and therefore I think women can take their part in all sorts of different work contexts. But I think the way in which they should do it shouldn't undermine the authoritative roles that men have in other contexts. I remember one of my senior pastors using an illustration of this, and he said that we're actually moving in and out of different types of authoritative roles and relationships all of the time. He said on a Sunday when he's preaching a sermon, he has spiritual authority and is to exercise that in the teaching of the Word. But during the week if he parks his car in the wrong position, he is to submit to the female traffic warden who gives him a ticket. And the fact that she's a woman is neither here nor there. He is to submit to the rules and regulations of the local authority and she is a representative of that. So I think there are roles and jobs that women can do outside of the home. But I think for Christian women, the way in which they do it is so crucial. And sadly, I think many women feel that they have to adopt very masculine characteristics in order to succeed in the world. And that is a denial of their femininity and the fact that God has made them to be women. The next chapter in your book talks then about the restoration of God's design. I would summarize that. What I see you writing about here is basically we've got to get back to the Word of God as being our standard and the Word of God is sufficient for the church and for society and for our home today, and basically we're talking about a reformation or a restoration of living our lives according to God's Word, His revealed Word, and what He has revealed to us about that design. Is that a fair assessment? Absolutely, and it starts by looking at the ministry of the Lord Jesus. You see that Jesus affirms the equality of men and women, but also the diversity of their functions. So he appoints 12 men, to be his disciples. He receives the ministry of women, and he endorses the faith of women, and he teaches women, and he treats them equally to men. But when it comes to leadership positions, it's the men who he appoints. So we see in the way that the Lord Jesus related to people a pattern that we ourselves should model in his dealings with When he's rebuking men, he's very harsh with Peter, isn't he? Get behind me, Satan. When he rebukes the woman at the well, he takes a much gentler way of doing that. It's still very clear that she shouldn't have all these husbands. But he understands that as a woman, she is different, she is to be respected, and she will hear his rebuke in a slightly different way to the way that Peter will. So in the way that he relates to people and the roles that he appoints them to, we see the Lord Jesus restoring the ordering of relationships that God intended at the very beginning. There's an interesting note there at the woman at the well in John chapter 4, when he tells her that the one that she has is not her husband and so forth, and he zeroes in on the relationships that she has had with all of these husbands and so forth. It's interesting what she says when she goes and recounts it to the people of the town. And this might point to the different ways that men and women think. When she recounts it, she says, come and see the man who told me everything that I ever did. So because he got to the kernel of the issue, the core issue of her life, you know, this longing for something in all of these different relationships that was never going to be fulfilled apart from a relationship with her Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Because he gets to the core issue, she then concludes, he told me everything I've ever done in my life. And so I just always thought that that was very interesting, the way that she tells that to the rest of the group. And it may just point to the different ways that men and women think. Carrie, let me ask you, we're down to just the last couple minutes of the program. Just if you could summarize for us, what then is the implications of this? If we're restored to a right understanding of the roles of men and women in these three different areas, the home, society, and then the church, what are the implications? Well, I think that there are many implications. Let me just summarize some of them. For those who are married, I think Christian men and women need to understand the different roles that they have to play in marriage and the wonderful visual aid that marriage is of the relationship that Christ has with the church. So Christian husbands are to love sacrificially like Christ loves his bride, the church, and Christian wives are to submit in a voluntary way to the leadership of their husbands. Now, if they don't, then there are going to be errors of passivity on the one side or aggression on the other. So if a husband is very passive, his leadership will be abdicated. and his wife will end up usurping him. If he is very aggressive and is a bit of a tyrant in the marriage, then he will abuse the partnership that they have, and she will end up being a doormat. Similarly, for the Christian wife, If she sees herself as intrinsically inferior, which is a wrong view, then that will fuel the husband into being more of a tyrant. But if she is a usurper and quite aggressive in the way that she conducts herself, then that will have the effect of making her husband a wimp. And the way to correct those errors, both of passivity on the one hand and aggression on the other, is for the biblical ideal of sacrificial love by the husband and voluntary submission of his wife. And if the husband and the wife work at the things that they are commanded to do, then Christian marriage becomes much more of a kind determined at the very beginning in Genesis 2, and is a wonderful picture of the gospel. Because of course, it is a picture ultimately of how the Lord Jesus relates with his bride, the church. So the ordering of their relationships within marriage is absolutely key. And actually, if I can say for myself, as a woman, The natural tendency that women have in order to help people is sometimes to take charge and actually learning to be submissive and to submit to husbands and those in leadership is a way of counteracting that tendency to take charge in inappropriate ways. Similarly, the tendency of men to abdicate will be countered by the sacrificial love that they are to demonstrate within their family. Well, Carrie, you've done a great job on putting this book together. I hope that it is used by many individuals and married couples, churches, and so forth in order to help spell out biblically what the proper assessment is of the roles and the responsibilities of the man and the woman in the relationship. You've done an excellent job of putting this together. Let me ask you really quickly to give us your website. You have a website. Is it dedicated to the book as well? Through the Christian Focus Publishers website, that would be the best place to go, yes. Okay, great. Let me say thank you, first of all, for being with us today. Thanks for writing the book, and thank you for visiting with us and doing the Skype interview with us. We're going to put it out on Sermon Audio for the folks to be able to watch and glean some more from it. But thank you very much for being with us today. It's a great pleasure. Thanks so much. Okay. That was Carrie Sandom. We've been talking about her book, Different by Design, God's Blueprint for Men and Women. Again, it's published by Christian Focus Publishing. Their website is www.christianfocus.com. That's www.christianfocus.com. You can go out there to see how you can get a copy of this book. They have a lot of great books out there. But here's another one, Different by Design by Carrie Sandom. Let me say this, that I say at the end of each and every broadcast, the Lord Jesus Christ said, you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. We'll see you next time. You're listening to Knowing the Truth. To keep this ministry strong and coming your way, you can make a financial gift at knowingthetruth.org by clicking on the donate button. You've been listening to Knowing the Truth with Pastor Kevin Bowling. Knowing the Truth is the outreach ministry of the Mountain Bridge Bible Fellowship located on Highway 25 in Traveler's Rest. For more information about the church and radio ministry, visit us on the web at knowingthetruth.org. The opinions expressed on today's program are those of the announcers, their guests, and callers, and do not necessarily represent those of the staff and management of his radio network, the Radio Training Network, or Clear Channel Communications.
Different By Design
Men and women are created in the image of God to reflect God's own nature and being to reflect the perfect equality, diversity, and unity of the Trinity. Carrie Sandom presents the Biblical view of gender roles for marriage, the church, and the workplace, and shows how they fit into a modern context.
On the program today I will be joined by Carrie Sandom to discuss her book, Different By Design.
Carrie Sandom is Associate Minister for Women and Pastoral Care at St John's Church, Tunbridge Wells, UK. She has served in women’s and student ministry for almost 20 years.
Sermon ID | 72414126550 |
Duration | 52:48 |
Date | |
Category | Current Events |
Bible Text | Genesis 1 |
Language | English |