Welcome ladies and gentlemen to the dividing line. As you can probably tell I am NOT Dr. James White. This is a presentation of Alpha Omega Ministries because Rich Pierce is here but that doesn't necessarily mean they agree with everything I say or how I do it. Somebody said the last time I was on the DL I brought swag to the DL. I don't know if that's a good or bad thing. I didn't get any complaints from Dr. White so I can handle that. Got a couple other complaints but look a apologetics multi-generational enterprise here, ladies and gentlemen. Now, last time I was with you on the dividing line, we did something that I really don't think has ever been done before, and we really got into some of the detailed history of the group known as the Hebrew Israelites. Really, it's multiple groups under one religious name, kind of grouped together, because this religious group has really one main thesis in common, that is, Those folks who are on the western hemisphere these days who came over here in some way as a product of the transatlantic slave trade are actually the lost tribes of Israel. That's the main thesis. They believe that the Bible, history, and archaeology proves this, et cetera, et cetera. They don't agree on much else, but we've been interacting with some of them, talking about the exegetical claims at points, talking about the historical claims at points. And here we're just doing sort of an expose because I've felt like when I speak to a Hebrew Israelite, which is a growing mission field, we want to do these shows to get more and more people involved in the enterprise of reaching out in love to their neighbors. That's what this is all about, guys. When I speak to them, though, a lot of times they seem to believe this doctrine has always been there. They just kind of thought of it on their own. It's clear that the Bible teaches it. Sometimes there's a real lack of awareness of their own historical development, and we want to educate as best we can, as well as offer what I hope is some helpful analysis. I do that by beginning to read from a book called Black Judaism, Story of an American Movement by James Landing. You've heard a story time with Uncle or Grandpa Jimmy. This story time with vocab, ladies and gentlemen, page 368. Early Sunday morning, June 30th, 1974, a young black man arrived by bus in Atlanta, Georgia, and walked to the Ebenezer Baptist Church, pastored by Dr. Martin Daddy Luther King Senior, the father of the civil rights leader who had been slain in Memphis on April 4th, 1968. The young man, attired in a tan suit and tie, attracted little notice as he attended Sunday school at Ebenezer, a church noted for its visitors. At the regular church service, Mrs. Alberta W. King, Dr. King's wife, was serving as guest organist since the normal choir was not singing in favor of older choir members who had moved from Atlanta and returned for a reunion. Mrs. King had been the chief organist for years but had resigned several years earlier due to age. She was 69. The Reverend King was not preaching that day, having invited Reverend Calvin Morrison, aide to Mrs. Coretta Scott King, to preach that day. The young man in the tan suit sat in the amen corner. The choir had just finished singing the Lord's Prayer, and Mrs. King had begun several bars on the organ in preparation for the next hymn, when suddenly, the young man in the tan suit leaped from his seat, shouted something that sounded like, I am taking over, When I am taking over, he brandished a pistol and each hand it began firing randomly. After threatening a visiting choir member, Mrs. Lillian Watkins, his guns jammed and he was wrestled to the floor by members of the congregation amidst great confusion. Deacon Edward Boykin lay dead. Mrs. Jimmy Mitchell was wounded. And Mrs. King lay slumped over the organ. She died an hour later in Grady Hospital. The young man in the tan suit was identified as 23-year-old Marcus Wayne Chennault, Jr. of Dayton, Ohio. He had withdrawn from classes at Ohio State, where he was, if you read the whole paragraph, from all classes the previous December, but maintained his room in Columbus, that's where I'm from, several blocks from the university. Now, I'm going to skim through some of this, and here's the interesting part why I'm reading this. He says the real target was Dr. King, that's Martin's father. but he fired at those who were closest to him. And Reverend King inquired who the enemy was. And the man, Chennault, replied, Christians. And apparently this man had a death list that included Ralph Abernathy, president of the SCLC. And this is key, at his arrangement, listen to what he said to the judge, quote, I am a Hebrew and was sent here on a mission, quote, and it's partially accomplished. Alright, now this goes on, and the reason though is because of something he was involved called the Troop that operated in Youngstown, Cleveland, Cincinnati, and again where I'm from, Columbus. And the Troop's purpose was to kill black ministers and civil rights leaders who members of the group felt had deceived and falsely led black people. Theology matters, folks. The reason why we're going to dip into some of this history is not because we're saying everyone is going to do this. We're not saying everyone would do this or thinks that they should do this. It's affiliated with it. However, it is important to inform you that the person who killed Martin Luther King Jr.' 's mother was someone who called himself a Hebrew-Israelite, and his theology or what his theological convictions is what drove him to do this. Now, this is one step along many things. This is back in 74. We're gonna go even back further with today's guest on The Dividing Line, Abu. What's up, Abu? Formerly known as Abu, from Truth After Knowledge, calling from New York City. What up, man? How you doing? Very good, very good. Good afternoon. Good afternoon. Yes, this is Abu Kamra. All right, real quick, before we get people, before we get started, how can people find you online? What do you want people to know about you real quick before you start whisking away with the questions about the history? Well, there's nothing much. I mean, I can be found on Twitter and YouTube just under Abu Kamra, A-B-U-K-H-A-M-R. I'm just someone who's been interested in the subject of the Israelites for a few years, have some information on them. I've focus specifically on the UPK wing, as they call it. You know, those groups that came out of One West. That's been part of my focus. Of course, I focus on other things, but yeah. And that's sort of the more prominent, rising faction of the Hebrew Israelites. There's groups out of Chicago, such as Israel of God, who are different, even though they have the same basic thesis, but they're not what you might call UPKers or One-Westers. Most of the groups that you see online are, though, however. Well, let's go back. Let's go back. Let's start with a man named Abba Bivens. Who is Abba Bivens, and why is he important when we do this historical research into the foundation and beginnings of the Hebrew Israelites? Well, all the groups that descend from one West, they can see themselves as descending doctrinally from Abba Bivens, as they call him. He went by other names, apparently. He went by the name of Eber-Ben-Yomim or Ben-Yamin. But he was the founder of a school that predated One West, and it was his students that started the school at One West that's given rise to all these Yiddish factions and splinter groups. It's called the Israelite School of Torah. Whereabout is it? When was it started? And where did they come from? Well, the school apparently was not too far away. It was on 5th Avenue. Where exactly? I myself don't know. Speaking to a number of people, they always say, oh, it was right around the corner. It might have been a little bit further away than that. But apparently it was right on 5th Avenue. It was not at 1 West, which is an important detail to a certain degree. And he himself was a former member of the Commandment Keepers. And this becomes relevant to a number of subjects. It becomes relevant to the fact that there's still vestiges of what was brought from the atmosphere that the commanding keepers existed within and how that affects their, to this day, how they approach, some of these groups approach them. Some old school books on the commanding keepers. Here's a book called The Black Jews of Harlem by Howard Brotz. This is an old school book and it really focuses on Rabbi Matthew there and Here's another one that that gets into them as well and some other things but uh The heritage seekers it also gets into been on me really but he's covered in there Another book called black Zion and so there there is some history when you start talking about the commandment keepers They've been on some historians and scholars radar for a minute and I'll get my understanding and you can correct it but The commandment keepers began when Rabbi Matthew failed to convince Marcus Garvey to sort of make Judaism the kind of official religion of the movement there. And he started something in Harlem. And the group was called the Commandment Keepers. And he began teaching some of these doctrines. And so I'm talking about all the way back in 1919 is when he first organized the Commandment Keepers Congregational Living God. And it was incorporated in 1930 and then relocated to Brooklyn. And you can read about some of the things that they believe and some of their evolution as well. There's a little bit on him and it's important to notice, but Abba Bivens came out of the Commandant-Keeper's congregation. Why is that significant, Abu? Well, it's significant in terms of, first, showing some of the trends that, first off, the rabbinic trends, and also showing the differences, how these groups have evolved from what Abba Bivens was. There's some elements that he brought with him that still affect the UP Cares to this day. There's other elements that they've clearly diverged from because honestly and frankly, they're continuously evolving and, not to be disrespectful, but making it up as they go along in many respects. Right, so why is it important that the genesis of this starts with a heavy influence from rabbinic Judaism? Why is that significant to us today? Well, first and foremost, just for a historical note, because the different Yupikayer groups really push away from rabbinic Judaism. They really try and distinguish themselves from mainstream Judaism. But mainstream Judaism had a huge effect on those groups, that environment, not just the commanding keepers, but also groups like the Moorish Zion Temple of Mordecai Hermon and stuff like that. And that's the environment that Abba Bivens came up in. But man, they now call Abba Bivens anyway. I think you showed me a picture. You sent me a picture of them, right? The Moorish Zionist Temple. Can we show that picture, Rich? That was one of the last pictures I showed you. Since you mentioned it, might as well show it now. Okay, so there it is. Let's talk about this picture for a second, Abu. Tell me about this picture and what's significant about it. Well, first off, the way they're dressed. If anyone sees one picture of Abba Bivens, out there, and he's going to be dressed similar, and also if you find pictures of Wentworth Matthews, you're going to see this similar. They're wearing, for example, the Sephardic style, they call it a mitzvah fit. Hold on, when you say Sephardic, could you quickly define it, and also define the Jewish and the Hebraic, rabbinical Judaism, technical terms, you could, if you could, real quick as you go through this, because people will get lost. It's something analogous to a turban, although now that's very misleading if you say turban, but there's a word misniffet and some Sephardic Jews to this day, especially rabbis, especially rabbis with authority, will wear that. And by the way, Sephardic represents, if you say, within the different groups within mainstream Judaism, within rabbinic Judaism, you have these different, I won't say factions, but these different streams that honestly are defined by region and language. So, Ashkenazis are really associated with Eastern Europe, Germany, and also with Yiddish. And that, basically, that is a natural product of the diaspora, meaning Israelite being spread across the globe. We recognize that as sort of a natural outflow of that. And so, Rich just zoomed in on the picture to kind of give a close-up of Matthew there. Yes, well apparently there's the gentleman in the midst of it, there's a disagreement. I believe that's Mordecai Herman. Oh! The people who say no, that's Israel Newman. Okay, I'm sorry. I believe that's Mordecai Herman, though. That's who I believe that is. Okay. Sorry. If you look in the book you read, Black Judaism, they claim that the man, the older-looking gentleman, is actually Israel Newman. I believe it's actually Mordecai Hermann, but nonetheless, the school at the Moorish Zion Temple was run by Mordecai Hermann and Israel Ben-Numan. Question. What is the significance of the address of the Moorish Zionist Temple of the Moorish Jews? What's the significance of their address? Well, this is where we get into a little bit of speculation, but it's that the address is uh... one twenty seven west a hundred and thirty seven i'm not mistaken it should be right there in the windows it is not beneath the window uh... there was a family called bitten that lived it did you go into old phone books uh... going right back into the forty i think i got a picture of that video that was that other second of the last picture i sent you rich and you'd throw that real quick i haven't been certainly one of the there's not a lot of people may be a bit in harlem at that time right but one of the families and i can't prove that this is uh... the family of opportunities but it doesn't significant the family need to get in that lives right next door at one twenty five west on one twenty five west under thirty seven street right next door. And also it should be noted that while people throw around the name Divens with the E at the end, some people spell it with an I, which is the way it's spelled in this phone book. It may or may not be related. So this is speculation, we're not claiming this for sure, okay? Now, what's going to happen is some Hebrews are going to hear this and say, hey, we're just speculating the whole time, at least they admitted it. What we're saying is we're trying to figure out some places where we know there's influence and other places where it's not as certain. And all we're saying, because this hasn't been fully disclosed to the public. And so we're having to kind of do the work and track it down because there's a lot of sort of things shrouded in mystery. And I think part of it is because of the embarrassment, the truth that the beginning of this movement really was heavily influenced by rabbinical, rabbinic Judaism. Now, one other question, you mentioned something about the writing, I think in the window. Of the picture? Can we go back to that picture? This is significant. You can see there's horizontal writing and there's vertical writing. The horizontal writing underneath the star is backwards, unfortunately. Maybe because they put the glass in backwards, maybe because they intended to read it from inside the apartment or something. But what it reads in Hebrew, it says Talmud Torah. Why is that important? Why is that important? Well, the word Talmud is something straight from Rabbinic literature. It doesn't have to be a reference to what we say, what we call properly now the Talmud, but nonetheless it's a concept straight out of Rabbinic Judaism. They were teaching something Talmudic. And you can also see on the sign, it says in English something like a Moorish Zion Temple or something like that right next to it. They have not Hebrew, but Yiddish. They write the word Temple and the word Moorish using the Yiddish approach to the Hebrew characters. I have another question to ask you. Now, we don't call white people Edomites. We don't call them red men. Are there Edomites, though, in this picture? In the background, there's quote-unquote apparently Edomites, although I imagine while some people will say yes, they are, others will say no, we don't know their lineage. But yeah, it seems that there's clearly, I think, What had happened was, this is what becomes, even if the family that lives next door isn't Bivens' family, nonetheless, or even if that Bivens' family is not related to him, nonetheless, we do know that Bivens was in the Commanding Keepers, and we also know that there was some interaction between the Commanding Keepers and this more Zion temple. They had some interactions, they sometimes did joint things, although by the time of, like, roughly the 40s, specifically Mordecai Herman was gone, I believe even as early as the 30s. uh... what what that is the thing that he was he was uh... it passed on but nonetheless it sort of establishes that there were a number of groups in harlem right that they were people they were started by men who grew up in somewhat christian homes yes we're trying to move away from that and embrace judaism and they were doing that by taking a number of elements from rabbinic judaism from mostly from afghani streams, because that's what you find in New York, but also trying to lean towards something Sephardic, hence the headgear and stuff like that. Because they viewed it, it seems at the time, as a more pure strand. Now, you've got to go back to the early 1900s to understand what's going on here. There's a couple of significant historical factors that I want to talk about. One, After the Civil War and Reconstruction and all that, you have black migration from the South into other places throughout the U.S., especially Chicago. I mean, that's a big one. That's extremely important. And you also have folks going into Kansas, just all types of movement, lots of movement. And you have new encounters between black folks and Jews that generally speaking did not happen, sort of an antebellum slavery, as you can imagine. Why? Not only that but you have an influx of Jewish migrants into certain places such as Harlem Lower East Side all this is going on and You have people who live and work there Jews who are trying to make their way migrants interacting with black Americans in the 1900s 1920s all that so this It is very significant that all this movement we're talking about, we talk about the beginnings and the genesis and the origin of the Hebrew-Israelite movement, that it really is Harlem-centered. That's important because the Lower East Side is... Well, let me stop there. I don't want to take it all away. Explain why that is significant. I don't want people to miss the point that really a lot of this... It doesn't make it not true, necessarily. We're not actually saying that. We're just saying a lot of this is very explainable by historical and sociological factors at the time, and we just want people to see this. This didn't drop out of heaven. It wasn't just clear to people. You know, there's a real paper trail, and sometimes photographic trail. What's the significance of Harlem and Jewish migrants and all that when we talk about this Abu? Well, as a number of people from the West Indies, but also as you mentioned, a lot of people from the South, were moving into harlem right there was at that at the dawn of the twentieth century there was also a significant jewish community there uh... mainly afghani and uh... that jewish community was connected with a much larger jewish community at the other end of the island of manhattan in what's now called the lower east side where i'm actually from and uh... so both mordecai herman wentworth matthew in their writings that are still extant they talked about going down into the lower east side and interacting with the jews there and and basically getting things from them, getting ideas, getting clothing even, you know, and the Torah scrolls and just about everything they used. And that sort of had an influence on them, and these men began to shed their Christian past in an attempt to adopt something more Israelite, and really what they were adopting was rabbinic Judaism, and Abba Bivens was very much part of that environment. That's the environment he's coming up in. Now, I would like to play a clip of Abba Bivens' teaching here that you provided me with. This is a pretty rare clip. The audio quality is going to be super low. Do you have an idea on the date of this in general? I mean, I guess it can't be later than the 70s, right? idea i would uh... i don't know the date but being that he was able to record it i assume it's later in his in his career, and also he makes an appeal to the New Testament, which admittedly some of these other groups did as well. So I assume it's also later in his time as well. That's significant. We're going to talk about this pretty soon here. At the end of this clip, he's going to make an appeal to Romans, and that's significant because that shows sort of moving away from full-orb rabbinic Judaism. I mean, this is already an amalgamation, but this shows some significant development, and Abu is going to talk about that. Here's the clip Rich tried to do with What You Can. It was given into the hands of a certain man, which is called Esau in the Bible. Some people call him a white man, but he's not a white man. If we will look at him and see that he's not a white man. But he's Esau, Edomite, which is in the Bible. Now I want the young man to get me the Scriptures, Job 9, 24, and we'll see that this earth was given into the hands of a certain people. The earth is given into the hands of the gentiles. See? It says the earth is given into the hands of the gentiles. Well, since the earth is given into the hands of the gentiles, he is the higher power in the world, and we should obey this power. Give me Romans 13, chapter 1. Let's see. So he just said Romans. And it will tell you here that every soul must obey this. All right, so Abu, I'm gonna let you break down the significance of what was just taught there by Abba Bivens. Honestly, I couldn't hear it, but I did listen to it before. Well, let me tell, hold on, let me fill everybody in then if you couldn't hear it. He's basically, you hear the beginning of the idea of white man's a red man, they're really edomites, and then he says, in this current time, the time of the Gentiles, they've been given power, and then he goes to Romans to say that we must be subject to the governing authorities, who he's saying at this time are the white folks. And that's why it's important to talk about this, actually, because I began with this discussion of the man who assassinated Dr. King's mom, but here in this clip, for example, you hear him saying, under the dispensation of the Gentiles, we're supposed to listen to the governing authorities. And so, Most Israelites don't agree that we're supposed to be like, you know, nationalistic, violent revolutionaries in this side of the kingdom. Just to be clear, it's not a similar doctrine to jihad or anything, for the most part. I'm making that point there. That's what he was talking about there, but at the end he goes to Romans. So why is that significant, Abu, that Abba Bivens goes to Romans? Well, because he came out of an environment that was rejecting the New Testament, but because the environment that they preach in, which is primarily Harlem, but also other parts of New York and also New Jersey, was, you know, preaching to the African-American community largely. They're dealing with a lot of people who are Christians. And so even though he came from an environment of former Christians who rejected the New Testament, that sort of environment was still trying to grapple with the New Testament. So you see the beginning process of this precursor to the UPKers starting to get back into the New Testament again, begrudgingly accepting parts of it for the sake of argument. In this case, he's using Romans to his advantage. In other cases, as I understand it, they began to get into Matthew 5, into, of course, Revelation 1, and so on, so that they would have these tools to deal with the many Christians that they dealt with. All right, now, Abba Bivens self-styled himself as a boxer, you know, and he would often knock cats out. There's a famous story that has been relayed to me several times about he was preaching on a stepladder, just like you see in the Malcolm X movie, for example, real old school style. A dude's heckling him, Abba Bivens drops off the ladder, pow! Clocks a dude, knocks him out. Well, that kind of brawler mentality continues on. Ah, Bivens is an older man. He's in Newark, New Jersey, a place that's not so nice, you know. You know, sorry to folks in Newark, but if you know anyone from there, you know what I'm talking about. So he's there in Newark and gets in a squabble with some Muslims. Not sure if they're Orthodox or 5% or, I'm sorry, Nation of Islam. but uh... he gets stabbed it appears uh... release he did receive some injuries tries to drive himself to the hospital but he dies the year is maybe nineteen seventy no uh... what the year's not really known for sure but what a week it can be any later than what year i don't assume it's later than seventy two i think the latest i think people get is when when his two students and one of those students on start a new school, the latest I've seen it dated is to 73. That's what we need to talk about. Everything we've done so far is really just laying the groundwork. Abu Bivens is now out of the picture, but Abu, tell me about the three students, because here's where we're getting rubber-meeting road. Tell me about the three students. So from his environment that was mostly Tanakh only, but apparently with some leanings towards the New Testament, his school upon his death his school apparently collapsed. The school was not at One West. And two of his students, a guy named Moshe and a guy named Yaakov, and the guy Yaakov's son, went on to start a new school, bringing some of his teachings, but also developing them and changing them. And they started a new school at One West 125th Street, which would evolve ultimately into the Israelite School of Universal Practical Knowledge, or uh... israeli church if you're about to back the knowledge and then split into the many groups that exist today the men were giant wobble masha that that's the thing an area uh... yes that's what it was it was you have uh... the guidebook and and yacob and then yacob's son uh... aria or aria some people claimed his name was and then later on aria developed a new form of people a lot to work with us which they claim is ancient And so they redid their names. Moshe became Mashah, Yaakov became Yaikvab, and Aryeh or Ari became Aryah. And we talked about this, Mashah was later said to be King David reincarnated, and that created a lot of problems, and he started a school called the House of David, and a lot of the groups that we're going to talk about, or that we talked about last time, came out of the House of David, which originally came out of UP. It does get a little confusing, but what's the significance of these three, and what are some important developments that happened in the 70s and 80s with this new school? Well, the big one for me is the language that they created. That's one that I'm most fascinated by, what they create, the Lashon Kodosh. The interesting thing is, that itself is an attempt to... it's a repudiation of rabbinic Judaism. It's part of their attempt to pry themselves away from the Jewish community that they were involved in, but the concept itself is taken from rabbinic Judaism. uh... interesting though so everyone just stop right there when i was then so they believe this is like a pure tone of hebrew and my basic understanding of how they did it what was uh... basically guessing a speculating at the vocalizations of helio hebrew because nobody would really know so i think that we could not we we haven't heard it so uh... but you're speculating what they were a patient yet yeah well i mean there's these rumors about you know an angel or something gave it to him this and that is clearly been developing it But what's so interesting is the phrase itself for the language is not found in the Hebrew Bible. Abu, where is it found? It's found in Rabbinic literature. Lashon Kodesh is their pronunciation of a Hebrew phrase, Lashon Kodesh. Now, that phrase doesn't appear anywhere in the Hebrew Bible. Some ubiquitous will say, oh no, that's not true, it appears in Zephaniah or something like that, but they'll say specifically i believe but but but i have to remind them which i don't think he did make a reference to a pure language will pay well that's that's a reference to a lot of a lot to walk about of course the phrase doesn't appear in the hebrew text there right that freedom but that's comes from rabbinic judaism it's all over a bit of judaism you know uh... a number of commentaries rashi and uh... not monarchy they use this phrase to refer to the hebrew language It gets even more. This is kind of a presuppositional argument in my Takeaway now, I'm not saying you sign off in the subwoo, but here's the way I look at it People are saying this is the pure Hebrew tongue basically given to us by God in the modern era to restore the Israelite nation and It gets us away from the tradition of the Talmud is which is a name They derisively call folks who follow modern rabbinic style Judaism however following their own presupposition that that's what they're trying to do, they betray themselves because the name of the language invented itself comes from Talmudic literature, not from the Hebrew Bible. Exactly, and here's where it gets even more interesting. When the Hebrew language was being brought back as a spoken language by a number of pioneers, the most famous one is Eliezer Ben-Yehuda, When he started doing that, what happened was that the pioneers in bringing back Hebrew would meet with the Ashkenazi community, who had a very heavily Yiddish form of Hebrew, and they would tell them that the pronunciations were wrong. Now, most of the Ashkenazis accepted that, and they embraced the form of Hebrew that was largely based on the work of people like Eliezer Ben-Yehuda, but some communities, especially really, really ultra-religious, ultra-Orthodox communities, most Ashkenazis rejected it. And the interesting thing is there's still these communities that hold on to their Yiddish pronunciations, like, for example, the Sotmar community, which is in Williamsburg in upstate New York, and they call their version of Hebrew Loyshyn Koydesh. Loyshyn Koydesh, I'm sorry. Loyshyn Koydesh, which is the Yiddish version of Lashon Kodesh. That's their pronunciation. And the thing is, I don't think this is a coincidence. Yahariah came out of a rabbinic environment, and I believe he got that idea of Lashon Kodesh you know, from his rabbinic environment. Now I'm going to show this picture here in a second. Before I do, let's talk about something that's going to make some folks mad. The man known as Nate that leads up the IUYC, the Hebrew-Israelite camp called Israel United in Christ, they're the ones who wear the black and gold with the little things on the bottom there, you know, fringes. uh... what does he call this language he has a derisive name for what's he call it yet none of the former napalm dollar that he refers to it as the ebonic people at least he did in the past and this is significant because a number of groups attacking for not using the name that popular amongst the u p care groups not generally not using the name that uh... if you've got what you've got one left and the real reason why he's skeptical about getting into that is because he knows that it's based on a language that's made up he knows that aria made the language up and so he's trying to distance himself from that language he hasn't done it fully because it still has an influence even on his group there's a number of even high-ranking members that still have Lashawan Kodash names but he himself is trying to distance himself from it on a number of occasions He's very disdainfully referred to it as the Ebonics Hebrew. Or I've heard it shortened as Hebonics. so now we're not saying this is nate you know from uh... what we can gather innate from what we can understand is always had his his ideas as innovative in certain ways in his always had sort of a clear-cut vision about what he thinks uh... this thing should be and what it should be calm now uh... look at the part of the committee the fact that he used to be with when he was with one left in the house david right he was called nathaniel ago which nathaniel is their way of paying the annual in so-called masha one for the right And for him to drop Nathanael or even Nathanael and just be Nathanael, even that was him winking. that he doesn't really believe in Lashawank with us, but he knows what's made up. Right. And then you have G.O.C.C., which does a totally different pronunciation when it comes to what they view as the name of God. And so, and honestly, I think it's probably going to get worse. You know, you're going to see more of this and people with alternate vocalizations, the further you get away from the one West being so influential. Oh, absolutely. You see that, for example, a number of people who aren't connected to camps the the one west used to refer to israel as joshua but now you people still drop the final a and pay up for all that's like a popular thing on the internet and these are people that are slowly tweaking the last month about right now All right, so we do know one important thing that happens, because we don't really know much about what happens in the 70s and 80s, but we do know that the three men... Oh, wait, wait, wait. Before I talk about this, we need to show this picture before we jump into the seven heads. Can you show... Let's start with a group picture. Can I switch up the flow on you, Rich? Rich is... This dude's awesome. But tell us what's in this picture and why we should be looking at this. So is this the group photo? Yes, it is. okay in this photo you have a young boy there that aria at about thirteen years old picture the hard copy of it is at uh... nineteen forty one madison for the state and within the confines of the uh... i p uh... g g c that's a group everybody that's a group that as a man who leads in who claims that he is the in uh... sort of embodiment of the holy spirit and aria still with his group to this day who now we're showing a picture of a young area Exactly. They claim that this was his bar mitzvah. Now, I don't, I have my doubts about that because an interesting thing about it is two men, one of them being Abba Bivens, Abba Bivens is the man right next to Aria. Can we show a close up of Abba Bivens there? He's the, with the, the older man with the beard there, Rich. Okay. I got the closer up of Abba Bivens. He's holding, he's holding a lulav in his hand. He's holding a palm. This seems to obviously actually be, during uh... support during the what they call for some of our which is uh... i think the seventh day of support so that's what i think that that but nonetheless the fact that the the very issue peter groups except that that the story that this was aria bar mitzvah that mitzvah shows that they understand that back you know but they've been today they were having bar mitzvahs which is again a rabbinic concept right and only that when you look at the way papa david is dressed at the same thing he's wearing the prayer shawl you've got the so far to commit not that on the fed you know if you use he's clearly much like uh... that the picture that we had a more type herman or if it's a little bit newman and also the pictures that many of them online about what what matthews they all sort of crap like this and they take this this was this where they're still in this very rabbinic stage and this picture of relevant because it shows aria one five rabbinic So it shows that him using a phrase for Hebrew that's also used by Rabbinic Judaism and is not found in the Bible? That's not a coincidence. That's because he had a Rabbinic background. He comes from an environment which was once much closer. with mainstream Judaism. Now I'm going to play a clip here, Abu, of Tahar, the modern-day leader of GMS, the Great Millstone Israelites. They take their name from Revelation 18, where he talks about running into Ariyah, who he calls, I think, Chief High Priest, in the modern era. And he says some important things that we're going to come back to about Ariyah's importance. So listen to Tahar, And what he has to say here about sort of their run-into meeting, I sped it up a little bit, but here is the clip of Tahar talking about running into an older Ariad, who may be 70, 74, I think he says in the clip. Here I go. Real quick, so right there, He's saying dealing with that madness with tazidakia. He's referring to the man who calls himself the comforter the God sent comforter Who again says he's the incarnation a manifestation of Holy Spirit and aria Believe it or not is actually with that group, but then to our kind about running into him. What's up, Rich? Yeah, don't go full screen on that. Okay, I'll bring it Got you. Okay. I'm gonna bring it back down when I do it. Well, let me play this clip again here You know in my heart Um, I truly believe he's a man of the Lord because all these, um, all these, uh, scriptures that all the people that came from one West, the main scriptural man was Aria. Even though we had went a little beyond that and went into other scriptures that he never really went into, but he was the scripture man. He was the man that told you when the High Holy Days came in. He was the man to go to, to learn the Hebrew, to learn. We wouldn't be able to do the Sabbath service, like the Passover Sabbath service. We did that based upon what High Priest Ariar taught us, all right? All right, what's the significance of what Tahar just said there, Abu? He mentioned the Hebrew, if I'm not mistaken. Yes, he did. He said he's the man we would go to to learn the Hebrew. The version of Hebrew that all these groups use, with the exception of Israel United and Christ, they're sort of putting in a difference. Most of these groups, GMS, the ICGJC, also the GOCC, basically they're all still using the made-up version of Hebrew that he created. And Tahar is one of the people that admits that. He says, you know, basically, you wouldn't have the heating if it wasn't for ARIA. And then, of course, also a lot of their breakdowns come from this, which he also admits, admittedly, they've continued to change things since then. Just a minute. When we say breakdown, that's a common phrase that is used to describe what might be the standardized interpretation from a Hebrew-Israelite perspective of a verse or a passage, they'll say the breakdown of it. And you mentioned one on the last program is a chapter in Revelation that the breakdown had been changed. I can't remember what it was off the top of my head, but just so everyone... Revelation 9. Revelation 9, yes. So just so everyone understands, when we say breakdown, it means sort of the standard exegetical narrative that they're getting out of a passage. And a lot of these, a lot of them are esoteric interpretations, come from Aria, and you'll see a common thing that they do, especially GMS even to this day, Even if it's clear that a prophecy has been fulfilled in the past tense, they'll take it and make it future tense, especially stuff in relation to Babylon. And so this is all significant. Now, let me play one other part of this clip that he... Well, first of all, do you want to comment anything else on that before I play one other section of this clip? No, go ahead. Alright, so here's where we, he mentions one other thing here, Tahar, who uh, probably is my favorite guy, I'm not saying he, he um, he's hard not... He's certainly very charismatic. Yeah, he's hard not to like, and I love when he makes videos. He's so hateful, he's very charming, yeah. Yeah, and um, he says funny stuff, and um, he just seems like a personable, warm man. Again, we think this is false doctrine, okay? So I'm not saying that to try to flatter him. Although, you know, if I spoke to him, I would try to talk to him with respect and love and as an older man and as a fellow human and all that type of stuff. And by God's grace, someone seeking after truth. But at the same time, there'd be some serious things we would need to discuss. But nonetheless, listen to what he says here. As you know, we curse these guys out. The scriptures tell you to rebuke them, man. But, um, they're still Israelites. And when the kingdom is established, we're gonna all come back together any damn way. That includes, uh, High Priest Yeshia, High Priest Rahab, or High Priest Gazak. I'm calling them by the titles that they had back in the past, alright? Whether they did wickedness or not, at the end of this thing, we're all coming back together anyway, man. And so, there you see a few things. You see Tahar's, sort of, he appears to have sort of a nostalgia for a more unified, authoritarian, maybe 80s, 90s type of Hebrew-Israelite thing going on. And he also has the view that it's all going to be sorted out in the kingdom. and that there will be a reunification because you'll hear some of these guys talk about this is the gathering of the valley of the dry bones and so they believe this is a nation-building time. However, we can look around and clearly see it's not gathering, the bones are splitting and fracturing and getting more broken if you want to continue that metaphor because more and more groups are splintering off. They view it as growth, I guess, but it's not more unification. It's not like sinews and muscles and joints are coming on top of the bones. It's the opposite. The bones are getting snapped and broke and spraying it all over. But, Abu, commentary on that clip. Well, first of all, with regards to him saying that men who did wickedness are going to be in the kingdom, he's talking about men who he believes have absolutely diverged from the doctrine, but what he's alluding to is his belief that if you descend from Jacob, no matter what you did, you're going to wind up ultimately in the kingdom. You might suffer temporarily here on Earth, maybe, as he likes to say, you'll catch a missile or something like that. But ultimately, all those guys are going to wind up in the kingdom, maybe some of them feeling some shame about what they taught. And what it shows is that salvation is ultimately based on lineage, and if you really go down to the logical conclusion of it, it doesn't matter what you do. You can teach any doctrine you want, do anything you want, and you might suffer a little bit in this world, that he likes to say, I've seen him predict that that even Arya might lose an eye or something like that because of what he's teaching, but ultimately, if you have the right lineage, you're safe. Yeah, and so, you know, they would sometimes accuse Christians of, you know, licentiousness, you know, type of thing, because we teach salvation by grace. But honestly, a lot of the Hebrew Israelites, not all of them, but a lot of them teach salvation by race. And so there you see that coming at the forefront. Okay, so, back to the school there. You've got Arya growing up, and really becoming prominent, the Bible man or the scriptural man, as Tahar calls him. Who are some of the people that join in and become what are called the Seven Heads, and why do they matter? Okay, so as we had said earlier, Bivens dies, then you have his two students and their son, so the men who would become Masha, Yaqub, and Arya, and then what happened is big they became the seven heads when another foreman join them which were charla hobb kabak and yeshia who went to different ways at different times uh... for example uh... yeshia wound up getting pushed out when taftabaki came to power and so on like that they split off but there was a time where they were all together and when you talk about his uh... tahars nostalgia it's a nostalgia for a period when all these groups were united in one west Now, what's the significance of Lahab, specifically? Elder Lahab. There's some things I know about him, but could you comment? Because I'm not as familiar with some of the other seven heads besides the main ones. Well, interestingly, he's one of the guys who broke away. He wasn't pushed out. He broke away on his own. One significant thing about him is apparently he's one of the people who tried to present the virgin birth to Aria. And this ties us back into this sort of begrudging acceptance of the New Testament, or their slow acceptance of the New Testament over time. So Ariah coming from Abba Bivens, who himself came out of an environment that rejected the New Testament altogether, slowly accepted the New Testament. And you get to this point, all the way in the 90s, and this came up last Thursday when you were discussing with Hadash, that it reached the point where they were showing Ariah the verses, the proof text for the virgin birth in Luke, and Ariah said, Luke was lying. Now, another vestige of that is, if you go to Luke 3.23, and specifically the King James Translation, it employs parentheses. When it's talking about Joseph being the father of Christ, it says, as was supposed, the father of Jesus. Now, they, for a long time, One West taught that that was an interpolation, that the mere presence, they didn't base this on any sort of manuscript. They did it purely on the use of parentheses in their favorite English translation. So that was a period where they slowly were grappling with the New Testament, slowly accepting more and more of it over the years. but still having arguments like saying, well, you know, it has a number of interpolations, a number of texts that you can reject. Now, here's something interesting... Hold on, hold on, real quick. Keep that thought. Let's put a pause for just a second on the discussion of some of the development and the splits and all that, because we're about to get into some major splits here in the 90s. But first... Can you backtrack and tell me that anecdotal story you told me about this other group that had been discussed? I believe it was in the book, Black Judaism, or an article that you had read. I forgot the exact source. I think I might have been landing. But it relates to the King James Version of the Bible. Do you know the anecdote I'm speaking about? It made me chuckle. We've got to share this. Tell everyone who it is, and then tell the story. Okay, let's listen to this story, guys. Story time, hold on a minute. Story time with Grandpa. Are you a grandpa? I don't know. What are you, Uncle Abu? Not yet, not yet. Uncle Abu. Okay, here we go. But this is relevant because the 70s are so murky. Right. It becomes relevant because in it's in the lady's book black judaism but he's actually quoting an article that's written by a guy named rabbi coleman or rabbi cole who was a african-american convert to hafidic judaism who had a very uh... visceral reaction to a number of the uh... hebrew israelite the groups that existed in harlem and brooklyn and elsewhere and he would write about the articles so landing quotes this article where he meets with the group he doesn't the name of the group that got the rabbi african-american rabbi who met the group doesn't say what group it was but landing speculates and i think he speculates wrongly that was a group called the news document whatever the case it's not about nineteen seventy and he meets with this group and he said they were first off the leader of wearing a turban the leader uh... refers to himself among other things as uh... high priest and the this group the leader of this group told them that they study tora daily or weekly and so when the rabbi asked him to see their torah they present a king james bible Can you repeat that one more time? Can you say that again? One more time for all the Raiders fans out there. One more time. So again, a convert to Judaism meets with this Israelite group in the 70s, doesn't say who they are, but the leader is wearing a turban, he refers to himself as a high priest, and he claims that they study Torah. When this Orthodox Jew asks to see their Torah, he shows them a King James Bible. All right, so maybe you can see why that kind of made me chuckle. Where's your rhetoric? You know, the law written in Hebrew. Right here, the King James Bible, okay. All right, so the thing is, what he's describing sounds very much like a UP care group. So as far as I'm concerned, there's only two possibilities, really. Either one, he actually met with, he was at One West. or possibility or or some precursor to it or possibility number two there were other groups that somehow faded away that were similar, you know, with them wearing the turbans and being King James only, and so on down the line. Which is entirely possible, because, for example, the commanding keepers are pretty much bare-bones these days, you know. A lot of these groups came out of it, but they're not much to speak of from every accounting I can get, even though they were... A lot of groups faded away, definitely. Yeah, like Mordecai Hermann Zeist, Morris Zion Temple disappeared, a lot of them disappeared. That's why it's so hard to trace the precursors, because all the precursors are gone. Now let's reiterate, I want to reiterate our main topic today and then we'll get back into the discussion about some of the changes in the school and the acceptance of the New Testament and all that. We're saying, this is the basic synopsis if you want it, the abstract, that modern Hebrew-Israelite theology, practice, doctrine, etc. has been heavily influenced by rabbinical Judaism. That's what we're demonstrating here from this sort of prequel in a way. The founders certainly were. Yes, to the last show, yeah. The founders were especially, but we're saying there's still little things where you can see it popping up is kind of what we're saying. And there's two reasons why it's significant at least. One is... It's something that they really deny or seem embarrassed by or shy away from. They're vociferously, these days, anti-Judaism, and especially Talmudic or Rabbinical Judaism. Secondly, it shows again, similar to last week's show, how much these groups change, how much doctrinal development there has been and honestly still will be. Comment on that before we pick back up. We've only got maybe five minutes, ten minutes before I want to bring on Faithful2God to pick up some of the pieces in the 90s, because we've sort of done the back in the day, we don't know much about the 70s and 80s, but we said what we could. But let's pick up where we were, you know, Lahab is there, these guys are there, there's some splits. What do you want to make sure we get in before we talk to Faithful2God about that last section that we're going to cover? Well, real quick, to point out also how much their history matters, this also relates to what you started out with with the murder of the mother of martin luther king jr that today well of course a lot of the groups will say well you know that the murderer was never with one west a lot of these you could care groups will still refer to martin luther king is quote-unquote martin lucifer king they have a deep hatred for him and that goes all the way back to this pool of groups that produced abba bivens and so it's sort of from the same pool they're not exactly in league with the murderer of course many of them would project what he did their hatred which did not translate into action is rooted in the same environment that existed in the sixty right divide but getting back to the now they got it that that was uh... that's doctor king's nickname do you want to share their nickname they have for louis farrakhan i actually don't know if i don't really have in mind louis i had that okay uh... normally we should never be saying this but they call louis farrakhan that's it's a death that all of that but that uh... unfortunately they love to use the anti-black slurs and that becomes especially strange with gms because they have a lot of white members who themselves are throwing around these racist slurs and it becomes very strange to see a white UPKer using words like that especially if you are seen the one guy who um... you know my Southside Columbus homeboy that started that GMS clique eight or nine years ago I understand the environment yeah with the red beard I understand the environment he came out of because that's really he was raised we were raised in the same neighborhood in general basically from what he told me so I kind of understand his environment and approach and all that but there's another guy I think that's in one of the Bay Area GMS that's a little bit more of like your standard prototypical like you know white guy and when he uses the n-word he does it with that hard er and listen listen if you think you're down enough to toss that word around ladies and gentlemen and you're with your friends chilling first of all i don't i don't recommend any of this i'm just trying to give advice Don't use the hard ER, okay? That makes it doubly unacceptable. But this dude in GMS uses the hard ER. And anyways, there's some videos of it. They're kind of like, make you go, ugh. Ooh, anyways. Horrifying. Horrifying. Yeah, all right. So, okay, go on. Where were we? Now I got lost in this. New Testament. Okay, yeah. New Testament. So what we were talking about was the this slow acceptance of the New Testament because they came out of an environment which had originally connected the New Testament and tried to be monotony. So you have the slow progression. The interesting thing is, eventually, the main school, the one that was at One West and now is at 1941 Madison, in which R.E.I. is still with, they came, over time, over the decades, to fully accept the New Testament. And now they accept the virgin birth. And even, interestingly enough, because they work with the King James, they even fully accept controversial texts like the Kama Yohaniam. First John 5-7. Yes, First John 5-7 in the King James Version, but the interesting thing is, unfortunately, because of the splits, some of these splits happened, all of the splits happened before the full acceptance of the New Testament by the main school, and so sadly most of the splinter groups are still using these outdated arguments, like claiming that, as was supposed in the King James Version of Luke 3.23, is an interpolation because of, in parentheses, these kind of arguments. Sadly, the seeds of poison that they sowed are... it's grown into these weeds all over the place in the forms of all these splinter groups. So while the main school has fully accepted the New Testament, Sadly, a lot of the other groups are still trapped in some of the arguments that date to the period where they were sort of in this middle ground. This sort of uneasy acceptance of it, but a growing acceptance of it over the decades. all right now uh... this is your uh... there's listen before the show you emailed me so much good information so so much archival material i mean abu everybody this man digs into old public records we're talking about death records Talking about birth certificates, we're talking about old phone books. A phone book, to those who don't know, they're millennials, is a book that has phone numbers in it. You know, sometimes it would be yellow or white, sometimes blue. Anyways, this man spent some time at the library digging in, man, and has uncovered some incredibly interesting and important stuff, you know? Details on the history, yeah. Yeah, and the reason why we're doing this I know people are going to question our motivation, but if I could share our heart for a second, because we talked about this before the show, and we can't cover all the stuff you presented in the emails, but check it out. We want Hebrew Israelites to hear this and be willing to self-correct. Because as you see this and start to realize everything's not all glossy like you might have thought, to be willing to challenge some of your presuppositions about where this stuff came from and really honestly where it's going. Are you willing to do that? Are you willing to say, I am truly a truth seeker Are you really willing to say what does the scripture say here? I? Know that groups think they're doing that we understand that and we're not claiming that You know I have all perfect knowledge just because I'm sitting here. We know that however Is the gospel right in the Hebrew Israelite movement? And unfortunately, often the answer is no. And we think that this historical analysis is a perfect chance to maybe give somebody pause and say, you know, let me reconsider and recalibrate. Now, don't recalibrate the shady way, which is, well, really what I meant was all the time, a long, you know, actually, you know, most misquoted typo. Recalibrate in the way that confesses doctrinal error and moves on in a spirit of humility Seeking the truth. I mean, I just want to share that and and I pray that there's people listening who are willing to do that Abu do you want to maybe a final, you know kind of plea? What's your interest? Why do you care about this? Why is it matter that we're doing this and then I'm gonna play a clip that faithful sent me and then we're gonna bring up faithful riches faithful on the line and Okay, so Abu, final kind of heartfelt cry before we turn a corner real quick here. Well, you covered it. Ultimately, this is rooted in a stance for the truth and an attempt to invite people to the truth. This is a small part of it because their doctrines have a history, and their history provides the context to how they reach the conclusions they do. So it's very relevant, relevant to understanding how they reach some of these conclusions, and therefore becomes relevant in the attempt to trying to invite these people to the truth. That's the most important reason. That's why I'm interested in this subject. Alright, that was good. Okay, now here's what we're gonna do. We're not all done. Like I said, there's so much more we could discuss, but I don't know if his phone is wacky, but maybe just turn it down until... if you want to say something, just pipe up. But I'm gonna play this clip that Faithful to God sent me, and... Okay, this is Pastor King Greig, everybody. And he's gonna show why, Faithful's gonna explain why this is significant. Faithful joined us last time at the end as well. He brings a unique perspective. He probably knows every interpretive framework that the Hebrew Israelites use for any passage, as well as their counter-arguments, examples. I mean, he's basically like got a catalog and he's a catalog himself. But here I wanna play Pastor King Greig and listen to what he says here in light of what we've just got done discussing. Here we go. I'm an imperial clut with the Knights of Yahweh. And I'm also a Christian identity pastor. We are trying to waken the white people to their knowledge of who they are. The Bible's written two for and about one race of people. Genesis 5-1 says this book is to the generations of Adam. The Hebrew word Adam is Adam. Ruddy, complected, able to show blood in the face. And the word generations is Adam. family or race. So the Bible's written to, for, and about the white race. And Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were direct descendants of Adam. King David was a direct descendant of Adam. Yahshua the Messiah you call Jesus Christ. He is a direct descendant of King David who is a direct descendant of Adam. And Yahweh promised King David as long as He promised King David that he would never fail to have one of his family sit on the throne. In Westminster Abbey in England, they have Queen Elizabeth's lineage on the wall. She's a direct descendant of King David. She's a white woman. The Bible's not written to any other race but the Adamic white race. In Deuteronomy 7 and 6, it says, I have chosen you, Israel, above all people on the face of the earth. And he's talking to Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel, And to his 12 sons, who are the 12 tribes of Israel that Yahweh promised as long as the stars, the moon, and sun exist, Israel would never cease to be a nation. Well, Israel only became a nation in 1948 by the help of America, France, and Britain. We stole the land from the Ishmaelites and gave it to the Edomite Canaanites. So, we are the people of the book, Revelation 2-9 and Revelation 3-9. Yahshua said, I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are of the synagogue of Satan. Well, who do you know today that call themselves Jews? We're one people. That's these Antichrists, Edomites, that are the ones that murdered our Heavenly Father. All right, by the way, a little heresy at the end where he said, murdered our Heavenly Father, an ancient heresy, I believe pronounced as Patrapasinism, where the Heavenly Father is actually the one in some way suffering on the cross. He may have made a mistake there, not sure what's going on with that, but that's one of his many problems. Faithful to God! You heard the discussion with Abu. We're doing a little prologue to today's show, which was a prequel of sorts to last week's show. I encourage everyone to listen to that. It's called The Fractured 90s. And why did you want me to play that clip here on today's Dividing Line? Well, I think it's pretty relevant because if you look at some of the arguments that the Christian Identity Movement uses, which actually stems out of their teachings from British Israelism, You're going to see parallels with what the Hebrew Israelite movement teaches, specifically the One Westers. There is a lot of parallelism between what the two groups believe. I mean, you kind of heard what he was talking about concerning the Jews. He refers to them as Edomites. He says the Bible is only written to or in about one group of people, similar to the Hebrew Israelites. And I am of the belief, or I'm becoming more convinced, that Abba Bivens and later Arianne, the rest of the people in the school, may have borrowed from the tenets of British Israelism and the Christian identity, seeing as they predate the Hebrew-Israelite movement that came out of One West. Right, yeah, when I was playing that clip, Rich in the other studio was just in shock, sort of in awe, He's hearing this other perspective, but yet very similar things placed upon a different group of people. I'd forgotten that clip because I had watched this before, that he calls those folks Edomites too. I'm getting a little bit of deja vu here as I'm following along and then not following along at all. Right, yeah, so that was interesting. So, Faithful, I mean, you heard the discussion. I don't know if you want to comment more on this or you want to comment on something we've talked about today as we wind things up here. right and quickly for those who are listening to that i know how these guys do today what they think they're going to think that we're somehow endorsing the video we do not endorse anything that that man said in that video we are completely against what he said as well Right, yeah. Just letting that be known. I know everyone's not watching the video, but he's got his white beard there, he's got a white t-shirt on, and his tie looks like the Confederate flag there, stars and bars or whatever, and it's titled, Pastor King Gregg, Christian Identity Slash British Israelism. Uploaded 2008. Pastor King Gregg speaks the truth. Well, it speaks to lives. And honestly, I think that, again, there's no coincidence here. This is all being orchestrated by the same enemy that we're fighting against, which is Satan. And ultimately, I know some Hebrews-like proponents said that, you know, throughout the entire show last time, we didn't say anything bad about Tahar or anybody like that. Well, I'll just come out and say it. Tahar is a false prophet. The men who are in that movement are false prophets, specifically the one western. I'm talking about those men specifically. They are false prophets. Yohanna is a false prophet. Nathaniel is a false prophet. All those men, false teachers, they are teaching lie, they are teaching heresy, and we are going to continue to fight against this heresy, as we are called to do, and give a defense of the true gospel found in Scripture. Yeah, I mean, you know, just on the 2000 prophecy alone, we closed last week's show, and we showed how all these guys were saying, you know, the year 2000, He's coming back, it's the end of America, et cetera, et cetera. And then, you know, after the fact, they say things like, well, we were kind of forced to teach that by Er-Yah, and that's significant, because Er-Yah is a significant theological heavyweight and influence in all this, so where's the discernment, you know, this type of thing. And not only that, but all the people who were teaching it, you got that issue. And they have this ad hoc explanation, like, well, like Nineveh, with Jonah, the people repented, and so that's why that's why it didn't happen. That's an exclamation point. You know, Brother Volkanov, if I can just interject, I find that ironic that they would meet the appeal to Jonah, being as the Lord always had a plan for Jonah to go to the people. In fact, that is what the last chapter of Jonah is talking about. He's having the discussion with the Lord. He said he didn't want to go because he knew that he would save those people. Now, mind you, yes, the people went back to their wickedness, and then the Lord let his wrath pour upon them. But it was not the way that, for example, the UPKers, who are continuing to promote this belief that that wasn't the false prophecy that was pushed in the original school somehow wasn't false. Well, let's look at the difference. First and foremost, Jonah was given a prophecy to Nineveh, right? And they repented before the forty days were up. And it's what the Lord always knew that they would do. whereas on the side of the Hebrew Israelites, where they're promoting this false prophecy. Well, the irony of ironies is that the prophecy doesn't come to pass. And moreover, they ignored Christ's own warnings, where he tells them that no man knows the time nor the hour except for the Father. But somehow, Aliyah, in his ignorance, thought that he could do something that would go against Christ's own word. right and that showed up the probably in that moment That shows that folly in the UPK Hebrew-Israelite doctrine. The whole book of Jonah is highly interesting in that Yahweh says to a man of Israel, go to Nineveh. So that's part of the Assyrian Empire, the capital of the Assyrian Empire. Go there and preach repentance to them, saying that if they don't turn in 40 days, God's gonna bring judgment. Well, Jonah does not want to go. That's why he gets on a boat and goes the opposite way, because later on he'll say that, I knew you would relent, I knew you're merciful God. And if you study the ancient Assyrians, they were cruel people, especially when they defeated enemies. You know, you can see the release where they were putting hooks inside of the noses and they would chain a hook to multiple men's noses and they would drag them along that way, captured enemies, just all kinds of stuff. And the VeggieTales version, for those of you who've seen it, where the Prophet Jonah is, their cruelty amounts to they slap people with fishes. You know, VeggieTales can only do what they can do. I always thought it was funny, you know, a vegetable with no arms or hands is able to slap someone with a fish anyway, and the idea of a vegetable using a fish to slap another vegetable is actually funny to me anyways. So they did a lot more, is my point, than slap people with fishes, okay? And so Jonah… Well, that doctrine turns people into vegetables, that doctrine that those guys are promoting. Right, so Jonah doesn't want to go, goes the other way, but God is going to have his way. Jonah goes there. Jonah preaches, "...Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown, and the people of Nineveh believe God." They repented, God relented, and then Jonah is heated at the end of the book. He's mad about it. He says in 4-2, "...And he prayed to the Lord and said, O Lord, is Not this what I said when I was yet in my country. That is why I made haste to flee to Tarshish, for I knew that you were a gracious God and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and relenting from a disaster. Therefore now, O Lord, please take my life for me, for it is better for me to die than to live." So Jonah He so wanted them to face wrath that he's saying, I'd rather die than have to see them experience God's mercy. Now, later on, you know, they sinned again, and God did bring judgment to Nineveh. But this whole story of a missionary out of Israel called by Yahweh to a non-Israelite people is highly significant. in this whole discussion anyway, so I figured we could spend some time a little bit at the end there, since you brought it up. What else you want to say, faithful to God? By the way, before I forget, YouTube channel, Hangouts, tell people about that, so we can make sure people write that down and follow you. Sure. After this podcast is done, I will be hosting an after show on my channel. Everyone can find that by typing in faithful to God in YouTube, or TTV, the numbers 20 and 50. And it should be going on roughly about an hour after this program ends. All right, all right. And then, there's anything else that you heard on the show you want to make sure you mention about what we just said? And then I'm gonna bring up Abu one final time if he's still on the line. Sure. As far as the Lashawan Kodosh thing, I find it ironic that that these men will make appeals to it, and yet they won't look at things, for example, like the Septuagint, the way that the Septuagint transliterates names. For example... Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, this is great. I remember you first showed me this. Actually, I heard Abu... I've heard a few people with these kind of translation issues, and even with the Aramaic. This is important. Everyone listen to this. Faithful, give us some importance about some biblical evidence against this made-up language. Go ahead, I'm excited now. So, for example, when we look at the Septuagint and we look at David's son's name, which is Abbie Shalom, right, in the Masoretic, it's Abbie Shalom. Now, remember that they claim that peace is actually Shalom, where they omit the word, or Shalawam. Now, when one looks at the Septuagint, for example, we look at the word that's rendered peace in there that's the uh... the shin the wah and the mem, if I'm not mistaken, no the shin the Lamed, the Wa and the Mem are rendered Shalom. I know most listeners know, but just real quick, the Septuagint is the Greek translation made by Jewish translators of the Hebrew scriptures that was made because a lot of Jews were not able to have such facility with the Hebrew anymore, and so they made a Greek translation, sometimes abbreviated in academic studies as the LXX, but go ahead, continue on. Right. So basically, when we look at, for example, in the Hebrew, in the Masoretic, which some of them actually ignorantly call Yiddish, we'll see, for example, Shalom there. So how is that rendered in the Septuagint, which transliterates it from the Hebrew into the Greek? Well, we see S-A-L, then the Omega, which makes the O sound, and then M. Basically, Shalom, with the S-H, because there was no S-H sound in Greek. and you'll notice that it is perfectly in line with the same pronunciation or pronunciation, I should say, that these men claim is somehow Yiddish. Mind you, they don't even know the difference between Yiddish and, for example, Hebrew, you know, because they claim that words like Elohim or things like that are somehow Yiddish. Now, this is the irony of ironies. I want to read something very quickly from, if I can find it, And after you do that, and bring up Abu, because he has something, now we've actually discussed it before, but maybe he could say one more thing about the pure, so-called pure tongue, pure language. He has some other evidence as well we've discussed, and I'll bring him up and then give him a final shout-out. Alright, alright, break us off proper faith with God. This is kind of a last thing, homie. What you got? What? What happened? You switch me over to Abu. Abu, I'm out of here now. Okay. Did you just drop Faithful? Hey Faithful, we actually dropped you. He'll call back. But Abu, break it down about, you've mentioned this before, but other internal biblical evidence against the pure language so-called. Well, the interesting thing is Faithful to God already brought up that the Septuagint has a large amount of evidence against it. Now, some UPKers try to react to that by rejecting the Septuagint. That's, first of all, a problem because they affirm the so-called Apocrypha, the vast majority of which the King James Apocrypha was translated from the Septuagint. So their use of the Apocrypha is an affirmation of the very text they want to try to reject. But more importantly, the same sort of evidence is found in the New Testament. As the video you showed when you were on with Dr. White, the cry on the cross shows that the way they speak, the way Christ is quoted, He clearly wasn't speaking Rosh Ha-Watah, He was speaking something much closer to standard Hebrew. Admittedly, it was a form of Aramaic, but nonetheless, you know? Right. It shows that the vocalizations supplied by the UPKers later on were not the same vocalizations that even Christ, as He's on the cross, would have utilized. Actually, there's one quick thing to tie this back in with the connection with rabbinic Judaism. Yeah. The 18th character of the Hebrew alphabet, if you don't include the final letters, the Sophie letters, the 18th character is the tzaddik, right? And this Yom Kippur, proponents of L'chaim on Kodosh, they claim that's pronounced ka-zah. It has two syllables, the pronunciation, ka-zah. Now, the question is, where did they get that from? And there's no evidence for that whatsoever. The reason that happens is because when Aria was throwing the a-vowel on every character. He was using a rabbinic transliteration of the Hebrew characters, and rabbinic transliterations into English will often render the tzadeh T-Z. So when he saw two consonants in his translation provided by a rabbinic text, he threw in the a-vowel twice and created this completely ahistorical phoneme, taza, or character pronounced pop-up it's probably not yet uh... how do you uh... So, the information you just said, like, how would a person confirm that? Like, do they have to read a bunch of rabbinic literature to see? You know what I'm saying? Like, I understand what you're saying, I'm tracking, but how do we say to people, like, here you can see this. Is it with the men earlier you mentioned who were some of the main scholars involved with bringing back Hebrew, or how would a person... To this day, if you just, like, delve into Jewish texts, Ashkenazi texts, and even some Sephardic texts, You'll see the way they transliterate that character. Often enough, it'll be TZ as the together to try and capture this sort of a hard S sound that also exists in Arabic as the Fahd, you know? And so that's where you can just see it just by going to Jewish literature that employs a transliteration of that character. For example, when they're discussing for charity, they say Tzedakah. You'll often see Jews, mainstream Jews, translating that TZED, you know, AKA, et cetera. uh... so anything any word using that character and then but the real question is is is for you to get into one of all but that the question is just ask them can you find one source people before aria claiming that that character the eighteen character the hebrew alphabet was pronounced pop-up anyone you know like a couple of uh... i think it's not you know if it did the there's not the perpetuity and not the new testament nobody renders that pop-up it it's completely historical and the reason why it's because aria solos to compliment together So he threw in two vowels. Oh my, oh my. I mean, you start to see some of the similarities in some ways with Mormonism, you know. Angelic visitations. We haven't even discussed all the so-called angelic visitations. Supposed language skills, you know. Languages that don't exist. Reformed Egyptian. One thing about language skills, yeah. Yeah, you know, all this type of thing. So, you start to see some of the similarities there. But okay. Faithful, what were you about to say before you got dropped? Okay, yeah. Can you guys hear me now? Yeah. Speak at peace. So basically, if you look at Genesis 11-5, for example, in any Hebrew Bible, it'll read as follows. It'll say, Now, that's the way it reads in Hebrew. They claim that's Yiddish. But let's look at actual Yiddish in the same exact text. Now, this is from a Yiddish Bible. Look what it says. Not only is it completely different, but if you look at the way that it's written in both of the texts, because they both employ the square script, the length is different, and also, again, even the way that God's name is pronounced. They pronounce God's name as God in Yiddish, whereas in actual Hebrew, it's pronounced Yahweh. Or, you know, Yud-Heh-Vah-Heh. And even people with only minimal knowledge, say, of German, can kind of hear the kind of obvious influence on the Yiddish versus the way the Hebrew is. And the reason why we're bringing this out is to say, yo, these cats call modern Hebrew Yiddish, but listen to what Yiddish sounds like. And it's not the same as modern Hebrew. Now, if I could add one more thing. There's also the New Testament, and this was actually brought up in the video that you played to Dr. White, the Lashon Kedash video that is found on Truth After Knowledge's channel. The cry on the cross I believe it is, uh... Oh, when you were dropped, when you were dropped, Abu brought that up, you probably didn't hear him. Oh, he didn't, in Matthew 27, verse 46, right. Now, ironically enough, why didn't Christ say, and it could have been very easily transliterated, why didn't He say, Hey, did you just do the... Lashwan Kledash? You just did that? Yeah, so it's saying that's how it would have sounded. That would have been easy fix, you know, you have it from Christ's lips himself. Yeah, that's a good one. I like that. All right, man. So, hey, faithful to God, final shout out, all that. What do you want to say? I mean, I don't know if you want to share any of the testimonials you've heard briefly without, you know, giving too much away, but I want to Maybe that's a way to close. Abu, do you mind if we close with one testimonial or so by faithful to God and call this DL a close? A great show, a lot more to discuss, but we got to get out of here eventually, so maybe close with that. What do you guys think? Sound good? Thank you. All right you by the way you guys have great awesome resources and yo God is got something going on. There's momentum here There's more and more people jumping out of the woodworks that are studying these things more and more people taking interest in it and more and more people have are growing a heart for this and see this is a mission field and They want to heart they want to help they want to be part of a solution in our churches in our streets And I'm glad to have some of the brothers on over the past couple weeks that are that are part of that so Testimonial time and then we're done go ahead what you got? faithful? Well, basically, since we started doing these refutation videos against a lot of their core doctrines, I'm talking about the UPKers, the One Westers, seven people have come out. Seven confirmed people have now left the Hebrew-Israelite movement, and we are hoping that more people will leave. And that is really my hope and my prayer to the Lord. Ultimately, I know that a lot of these people are very much caught up in this some of them are emotionally attaching you'll be surprised uh... vocab some of these people even when you present to them the most thorough reputation against their doctrines they do not want to let go and i think that ultimately it's not the intellectual argument that is going to convince these people it is the holy spirit and i hope and i pray that he will do that to every one of those people in that movement uh... but ultimately i do believe also that the holy spirit can use the intellectual arguments to at the very least bring the person to the recognition of the flaws, the folly that is found within that movement. And again, I think all of us, every one of us, should pray for those people because they are lost, they do not know Jesus Christ, and we would hope and pray that one day those scales would be removed off of their eyes and they would truly come to know Him as Lord and Savior. Amen. Colossians 4, 5, 6 says, And I pray that as we grow in this, we learn more and more how to answer the people that call themselves Hebrew Israelites. Well, I pray that the Lord uses this show. Thank you very much Dr. White for having me on. You can start that outro music if that's how it works, Rich. And I thank all the Dio listeners. You're going to get Dr. White back next week, I believe, in the flesh type of thing. Okay. And he'll be taking over. Thanks for having me in the meantime. And thanks for putting up with my G.I. Joe Serpentor reference. That actually got a decent amount of views. Twitter back and forth. It's just funny. And thank you faithful to God for joining me. Keep up what you're doing. And thank you to Abu Truth After Knowledge for what you're doing. And hey, peace out y'all. Have a good one. That's all. Shalom.