New Age Practices and the Church. Today we're gonna be talking to Marcia Montenegro for a part three on the New Age. Welcome to the Youth Apologetics Training Podcast. Welcome back guys, right? We've done two parts and that second conversation I had with Marsha We went so long that really needed to be broken out into three pieces. So today is gonna be part three There's so much more interesting content in this interview that we talked about Marsha really is a wealth of information again her website is ChristianAnswersForTheNewAge.org. Okay, I've messed that up a few times in previous podcasts. ChristianAnswersForTheNewAge.org. And so without further ado, we're just gonna jump right in and basically pick right up where we left off last time. Okay, what about Reiki? Reiki is a form of energy healing, which means that doing Reiki is somebody believes that they are manipulating or channeling a healing energy to help somebody. And this was allegedly started by a man in Japan who was a monk. He was a Buddhist monk. Gursai was his last name, U-R-S-U-I. Now this is his story and of course it can't be verified, it's just his story, but he claims he spent many, many days searching. Well, there's two versions. There's the Christian version and there's the real version. The Christian version is that he was a Christian minister who was trying to find out how Jesus healed. And so he searched the Bible and Buddhist texts This is actually stories I read online when I was researching it. And I thought, well, if he's a Christian minister, why is he searching Buddhist texts? But that was part of the story. And then after that, he meditated for 21 days, and then he welcomed the Reiki energy into himself. Now, that story was told so that when Reiki was brought here to the US, It was told as a Christian story so that Christians would think it was okay. The real story is that he was a Buddhist monk. He was not a Christian minister. He was not a Christian. He didn't study the Bible. He was studying Buddhist and maybe other texts, maybe Dallas texts more likely. And then he meditated in a monastery. And then this is how he puts it. He welcomed the Reiki energy into himself. It's very occultic. Undoubtedly, this was a demonic thing that entered him. This is my opinion. And then he began using it on people. An American woman was there, and she wanted to learn how to do it. And he trained her. She or another woman that she trained, I can't remember now, came to the United States and started the first Reiki center in Atlanta, Georgia. And it just so happens it was started in the city where I was as a new ager when I was getting into the new age. It was right around that time. And so I was aware of the Reiki center. I had friends who went there, so I knew about it. I didn't know the history of it. I knew it was a form of, you know, New Age type healing, although they didn't call it that, they just called it, you know, Reiki, they called it healing. And people urged me to go, but I just, for whatever reason, had no interest in it. So for a while there, Reiki was, you know, it was introduced in the New Age and New Age circles, and it kind of stayed there for quite a while. And then in the 90s, I started getting asked about Reiki when I went and I was speaking in churches. And so people were asking me, well, what is this, this Reiki? You know, usually they couldn't say it. They'd say it starts with an R and it has a K in it. And I would say, do you mean Reiki? And they would say, yes. And I thought, this is interesting. If people in different churches and different areas of the country, and I was getting emails too, are asking me about Reiki, it means that it's beginning to grow. And that's always been true in my ministry. I've always noticed when something is beginning to grow by the questions I get from people in different places. And so I thought this is something I need to read about. So I did. I did some reading on it so I could answer the emails and answer the questions. And then it just got to be where there were so many questions and so many emails, I thought, I need an article to send to people. And I looked online, I couldn't find a single Christian article on Reiki. I couldn't find any Christian information on Reiki at all. I mean, zilch. I maybe found a reference to it in some ministry with one sentence or something, but I could not find anything substantial on it from a Christian viewpoint. I could only find pro-Reiki websites or the websites of Reiki healers. So I realized I had to write an article on it, and I did. So I do have an article on my website on Reiki. And what this is, it's very occultic, because it's very, there's three degrees of healing. And if you're learning to be a Reiki healer, you have to be initiated by somebody who's a third degree Reiki healer. They have to, because only a third degree can initiate somebody. And this is the same thing that happened to Irsai, where the Reiki energy is awakened in you. And then after this point, and this is done through a ritual, and after this point, you know, you supposedly learn. Now, I did not learn Reiki, I never did it, so I don't have inside info on it. I have talked to some Christians who used to do Reiki. And then you can, if you want, you can go to the second level or the second degree, and that allows you to do like remote healing. And then if you want to go further, and especially if you want to teach it, then you go to the third degree. So it's very secretive, they don't really share this information. And it's having to do with this invisible force or energy that supposedly they are channeling into a person's body at specific points of the body. So what you have here basically is occult healing. This is occult healing. And a lot of people don't realize that healing is very, very big in the occult and in the new age. It's a huge, huge thing. And I remember when I was young that, you know, I used to hear now and then, or maybe there was some goofy movie about, you know, a crazy witch doctor. And, you know, that term witch doctor, which really you don't ever hear anybody use it anymore, because I guess it's considered sort of politically incorrect or old-fashioned or something. And it sounds, you know, it sounds like you're trying to, it's a pejorative. So, I mean, I actually don't use it except when I'm explaining this kind of thing. But witch doctors were seen as people who were doing these, you know, rituals that had to do with contact with spirits and with God calling on gods and everything. I mean, it wasn't medicine. And this is really what we now call shamanism, except now shamanism is glamorized. And so shamanism is now a good thing. It's not a bad thing. It's a good thing. And so the term witch doctor isn't used anymore, because essentially that's what a shaman is. And that's what occult healing is. It's what shamans do. It's what occult healers do. It's what witches do. It's what new age psychics who do psychic healing do. I had psychic healing done to me several times. And whenever you have anybody who claims they are channeling some kind of energy into you, even if they call it a healing energy or an energy from God, or they're manipulating energy in you or around you, you have somebody practicing a very a very evil form of occult healing. I consider it very dangerous. I would, you know, advise anyone never, never, never, never get this kind of healing. It's not really healing in any way. So now, unfortunately, Reiki is now going mainstream and they're actually allowing nurses and Reiki healers to come into hospitals. And nurses actually started learning Reiki back in the 90s at nursing when they had like seminars and conferences for nurses. Reiki was imported to the nursing community by a woman who knew another woman. She was a nurse. And she, I don't know why she knew this other woman, if she was involved in theosophy or not, but this other woman was a theosophist. who did, oh, you know what? No, that's therapeutic touch. Never mind. But I'm glad I mentioned it because let me say something about therapeutic touch. It is true. Reiki is being done in hospitals and by some nurses and Reiki practitioners. There's also something very similar, which I should mention so people know about it. It's called therapeutic touch. And therapeutic touch, I always get these two mixed up because they're so similar. But therapeutic touch actually is not touching the person. You don't touch the person in therapeutic touch. In Reiki, you may hold your hands over the person or you may touch them. You may do both. But in therapeutic touch, you don't touch the person. And this came from a woman in Theosophy who taught it to a nurse. Theosophy is an occult organization and taught it to a nurse who took it to nurses. And therapeutic touch spread in the nursing community and a lot of nurses became therapeutic touch healers. Some nurses have become Reiki healers. I just noticed recently, and I posted on this on Facebook, that big major hospitals now, because they are wanting patients, are offering them the alternative modalities including Reiki, and so like Columbia Medical Hospital or Columbia Medical Center, I forgot what it's called, is offering what they call integrative medicine, and when you see the word integrative, that's a big red flag. It means they're combining valid scientifically-based, scientifically-tested forms of medicine and healing with spiritual, invalid, unscientific, non-tested forms of quote unquote healing. So you're getting like this combination or they present it as an equal option to the medical stuff. So they had on the website, they had different things like Reiki, they had Reiki on there. And they had a very kind of benign description of it. that, you know, that didn't make it sound so bad. It said an energy thing that would relax you. So people aren't really, if they don't research, they're not really going to know what it is. And they had, I wish now that I don't think I would, I don't know that I could bring up the website again, but they had other things they were offering too. And I mean, we're going to see more and more of that because now with this movement towards, first it was complementary, first it was alternative healing, then it was complementary healing, which used regular medical approaches with the alternative, but now it's integrative is the kind of new catch word. And so to me, a major hospital, that offer something like Reiki should be ashamed of themselves. They should just be ashamed of themselves. This is inexcusable. It is absolutely inexcusable. They might as well just hire psychics to come in and do psychic readings for the patients. I mean, why not? You know, if you're going to have Reiki healers, then bring in the psychics and astrologers, because it's no different. It's absolutely no different. It's the same kind of thing and perhaps maybe even worse because you may, you're giving something to patients and they think that there's something of value in it that's going to in some way help them with their illness. So, you know, I'm just, it just makes me angry. I'm very angry about it. Now. Okay. So there's Reiki. What about acupuncture? Because that's kind of in that same kind of vein. Is there any real science to it or is it just another New Age practice? Acupuncture really comes from Taoism and Taoism is an ancient religion. It's really got a lot of facets to it. It's extremely complex because it was like a religious movement, a spiritual movement that sort of you know, went through centuries and centuries with different teachers and different teachings and changed over time and had teachers who taught different things. So it's not a monolithic religion, but there are certain views that tend to be part of Taoism consistently. And the Tao is the impersonal source of everything. And yin and yang are forces that seem to be opposite but actually are complementary because they need each other. And so yin and yang come from the Tao. And yin and yang have to be balanced for health, for happiness, for everything to work well, there has to be a balance. And then you have this force called qi or qi. It's sort of this animating force of the universe that's present everywhere and present in you. and it is related to the yin and yang. And so acupuncture is the system of treating symptoms based on the belief that the chi that is flowing in your body through channels, invisible channels called meridians, are blocked. And when this chi is blocked, the yin and yang are imbalanced and you have pain. or illness. And the way to unblock it is by putting needles at various points of the body that don't necessarily have to do with where you're sick or where you have pain. And this is based on these old charts used, I don't know, hundreds of years ago in China when they didn't really know about the body because autopsies were forbidden. So I guess they knew some basic things, but they didn't really know where all the organs were. And so that is why, just to talk about something related, it's not the same, but it's related to the same idea. Reflexology, for example, is belief that the various areas on the bottom of your feet, and even on the palm of your hands, relate to different organs. And there's also, you can do it on the ear. And so, you know, one part of your foot is for the heart and other parts, the liver, you know, and other parts of the lungs. And so by rubbing these parts or treating these parts of the feet, then you're affecting the organs. And the same is true with, you know, they can use the ear. And I see a lot of this on Facebook. I mean, people go to these pages that, oh, here's how to treat this, you know, and it's really a form of reflexology. There's no science. It's totally based on this belief in the chi, and they believe that by rubbing these areas, and the chi will go to the organ that is specified by that area. And acupuncture is also based on the spiritual belief of the chi. And these invisible, the meridians don't exist. They're invisible. So of course you can't prove they don't exist, because you can't prove invisible things don't exist. Um, I could tell you that I'm seeing, you know, 45 little fairies sitting on my desk right now. And you would have very hard time disproving that, you know, you could just say, well, there's no evidence for them, or I don't believe you, but I could say, well, no, I'm seeing 45 fairies here. So, um, this is how, this is the subtlety of Satan here. So he has all these things be invisible like the chakras and the chi and the meridians. You know, it's all invisible. So it's unfalsifiable. But what they started doing, National Institutes of Health started looking into alternative treatments and they set up a committee in 1993 and actually this gave a lot of validity. This was the beginning of the big alternative healing movement in this country. It was right then, 1993, when National Institutes of Health instituted investigation into these areas, they said they were going to study them and test them. And that immediately gave them validity, because if the NIH was going to spend all this money on looking at these things, then there must be something to them. And over all the years now, since then, they have not been able to find any scientific or medical validity to acupuncture. And a few years ago, basically the word was acupuncture has no medical or scientific basis. And it's a done deal. However, because it got popular in the culture, it's still used. Some insurance companies cover it. Some doctors, there are even doctors who do it. So it's already in the culture. It's already there. People see it as valid. They don't care if it's been pronounced unscientific. So that's the story of acupuncture so far. Wow. That's fascinating. Okay. And, and you brought up a reflexology, um, way back when I was a brand new believer, I got sucked into going over to some, uh, friends' houses and they took pictures of my eyes. Uh, have you ever heard of iridology? And it's the same idea where the eye is mapped out and supposedly all your nerves dead end on your eye and then you can pinpoint ailments in the body by looking at the eye. Yes, and that's totally bogus. One of those shows, like 60 Minutes or something, did a whole show on aerodology a number of years ago, like I think in the late 90s. in which I watched. I think I've actually seen it twice. And what they did was they got a woman volunteer who was, she was like 27, 28. She was absolutely healthy. They had her checked out by one or two doctors to make sure there was absolutely nothing wrong with her. She was about as healthy as you can be. And they sent her to five iridologists. And you just can't help but laugh because each uridologist found something wrong with her. You know, one said something was wrong with her liver, someone else said she had digestive issues, someone else I think thought she had some heart issue. And so they all diagnosed her with these, and they were all different, you know, they weren't all the same. And then the reporters for this program went to the uridologist and said, you know, you looked at them, they had the woman with her. And they said, did you examine this woman? And they were like, yes. Did you say that she had, you know, some problems with her liver? And they said, well, yes. And they said, well, we just want you to know that she's been checked by a doctor. And some of these iridologists wouldn't talk. Of course, they wouldn't talk anymore. They're like, leave, you know, and they would turn their back and walk away because they had been exposed. And a couple of them, I think, tried to defend themselves. Basically, they showed it was a complete sham, complete sham. And really, you can just say that that's true for reflexology. and acupuncture and Reiki. Although I think when you open yourself up to these, especially like Reiki, because there's this energy being manipulated that is not from God, that it can be spiritually, you know, dangerous. So even though I'm laughing, their ideology, they aren't doing any energy thing. They're just looking at you and telling you stuff that's not true. But, you know, you're wasting your money. Yeah, yeah. And I guess along with that whole idea of iridology, they also had me hold various herbs and supplements. And then they would either have me hold out my arm and they would press down on it and You know, if they could push my arm down easily, that meant that I was deficient in that particular supplement or vitamin or herb. And I needed that. Or they would try to spread my fingers open, you know, hold your fingers together. And then, oh, it was so hokey. It was embarrassing. By the end of it, I was thinking to myself, I have got to get out of here. These guys are crazy. But yeah, so, Have you encountered that as well, that whole... Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I had that done to me in the New Age, and here's the sad news. The sad news is that applied kinesiology is very big in the Christian community. Yes. That's the sad news. There are many, many, many Christians who go to people who do this, and there are many Christians who actually practice this. especially like chiropractors and naturopaths and quote unquote holistic healers. And so they're practicing this hokey stuff on you. It's based on a belief that somehow your body has this inner wisdom. It's going to give the information through your muscles. Yeah, it's just it's terrible. I often post on this on Facebook every once in a while. I will put up another post on applied kinesiology or sometimes called muscle testing, although there is a valid form of muscle testing where you're really testing the muscles. But sometimes this is called muscle testing. And just so people know, kinesiology is a valid study. It's a study of how the muscles and body work. And like people who major in sports medicine or physical education, will take courses that are called kinesiology in college. That's different from applied kinesiology. So I just want people to know that I'm not talking about kinesiology. So applied kinesiology is the thing like you described. And there's several YouTube videos of it. There's YouTube videos of people demonstrating it as something, you know, valid. And then there's some YouTube videos showing that it's completely invalid. So people can look for that and try to find the ones that show it's invalid. And I'll show how it's how it's how they how it were how quote, unquote, it works. So that it seems that the the whole thing is actually working the way the practitioner says it's working, but it's not. Okay, and I guess changing gears a little bit something else that I see a lot from within Christianity is this the crystals that these different like clear quartz crystals and topaz and these different rocks and crystals that people put on necklaces or carry around with them in little bags and Supposedly there they have different frequencies to them and different almost supernatural properties. What's with that and Yeah, crystals in the New Age, crystals are, they come from deep in the Earth, and since the Earth is sacred, everything's imbued with a divine energy in the New Age. So, crystals have sat in the Earth for a long time, I guess. I don't really know how long it takes to form a crystal, but it takes a while. And so, therefore, they have a more concentrated divine energy from the Earth. And that makes them special. And so then different crystals and different colors mean different things. So some you carry for health, some you carry to attract love, some you carry for mental clarity. And, you know, there's other things too. And it's very, it's very big in the new age. Crystals are a big deal for a lot of people and they really believe in them. They'll put them in their homes in certain places. Now I have, I've not come across any Christians personally who believe in this. However, the idea of frequency and energy is in the, in the church, mainly because of the alternative healing stuff that's in the church and the idea that there are these frequencies and things. Um, I have seen that in some areas of the church. I don't think it's common. But this whole thing of quantum physics and quantum mechanics, which actually is very much misused by the new age, is beginning to come into the church. And people just use quantum physics and quantum mechanics as though it just validates everything. I mean, I've never seen anything like it. Kind of like, well, you know, in quantum physics, blah, blah, blah. Well, first of all, so many people who refer to quantum physics don't really understand quantum physics at all. It's not that easy to understand, and quantum physicists don't even agree on it. And what people are doing is they're taking these certain things that have been stated by some quantum physicists, and when the quantum physicists are talking about them, they're talking about things on this very, very small, micro, subatomic particle level. And people take that and extrapolate it to the bigger, larger macro level, which isn't scientific. And they're trying to apply it to everything. So, you know, we're all energy. We're really just energy. And, you know, in the new age, that means then you can manipulate things because it's just energy, you know. And it's being applied in all kinds of ways that are invalid. And this whole frequency thing comes from that. So you have a lot of these people, they're all over the internet. And I have had many, many, many, many emails and private messages from Christians who either have been exposed to these healers, or they have relatives who go to them. And they will ask me about it. And they'll say, you know, this guy is a Christian, and he's using this machine. and the machine reads the frequencies of your body and then it can tell when you know what's wrong or what's needed or sometimes it's a machine that's used to treat the body and this is really common and there's you know an origin of this that goes back goes further back but it's become more popular and that is in the church there that is in the church of course the people who use these machines as far as I have been able to tell and I have looked at a number of these people and their websites, quite a few of them, none of them are medical doctors, none of them. They usually have no background at all maybe in anything medical or health related or they're a naturopath, chiropractor or they have a background in that or they call themselves a holistic healer or whatever. They usually don't have medical credentials. In some cases it might be an osteopath because in some states apparently you can call yourself an osteopath and you don't have to have any training. So a lot depends on the state, the regulations in the state as to what you can call yourself when you're being a healer but you're not a medical doctor. So that's something people should be aware of. But these machines are just completely invalid and people go and pay all this money And I've had so many emails from Christians who have Christian relatives and friends who do this. In Fort Collins, Colorado, there is an electrical store. They sell various electrical supplies, different fuses and these types of things, different diodes. I have to shop there every once in a while. And in the back, they have the Vibe machine. And this is in a legit electrical supply store. And they have it advertised out front that they have the vibe machine and that you ask within. Well, one day I went in and I'm like, okay, what's the vibe machine? And they explained to me that you gather around this vibe machine and it emanates a frequency that your body will come in line with. And then when you think about certain things, it will, influence the universe to bring those about. So basically, if you know, if you're sick, you can sit around it and think about health. Or if you're experiencing some financial problems, you can sit around it and, you know, bring those vibes of finances to you these types of things. And it, in one sense, it's a little comical, but yet in another, it's really sad. Yeah, that's really something that they would even actually say that to you. So it's a valid thing. Wow. Yeah, it's shocking. And, you know, and this is a store that sells electrical components that are based off real science, you know, things that you can certainly test and repeat. It's very bizarre. Yeah. Well, it's strange they would have that. in that kind of store, you know? That's very odd. Yeah, it really is. It caught me off guard. Okay, so speaking of various devices that help you tap into some kind of supernatural realm, you mentioned in part one Ouija boards. What are those and how are those used? Oh, Ouija boards. Did I mention that? Okay, I don't remember. A winged keyboard is, of course, a lot of people are familiar with this because it's been sold as a toy in toy stores for quite a while. But it actually has origins in the 1800s. And the man who started an early form of this was a spiritualist. The spiritualists believed that they can contact the dead, that you can get messages from the dead. And he was trying to find an easy form or an easier form to get these messages. And so what he came up with was sort of this alphabet board kind of thing. It wasn't exactly like the Ouija board, it was an early form of it, or writing the letters as you ask questions. So that started in the 1800s and then it gradually developed and around the early 20th century, there was a man who decided he wanted to really update it and bring it more in line with the times. It was actually called the Baltimore Talking Board initially. And I can't think of his name right now. I usually always know his name, but his name's just gone out of my head. And his name is actually still on, it's still on the Ouija board. So if you look at the top, if you look at the top of the Ouija board, if you get, now there's different forms of, there are other boards that look like the Ouija board, but they aren't called the Ouija board. But I have seen other forms of it, different kinds of boards with letters and a different placement than what you normally see on the Ouija board. But yeah, his name, I know, I'm pretty sure it starts with William. Or is it Elijah Bond? His name is William Fold. Well, Elijah Bond and William Fold, they were partners in this. But William Fold is the one whose name is on the Ouija board. And so they came up with this more modern form that they called the talking board. And the thing is, is that other companies were imitating it and calling it the talking board. So Fold and Bond decided that they needed to change the name and just have it as their name. And now they claim that they asked the board what they should call it. And this is their story. And the board spelled out Ouija. And so they called it the Ouija board. And if you look at the word Ouija, I mean, it looks like a strange word. And people were like, oh, I don't know how to spell that. But really, it's easy. Because if you've had any even basic French or German, it's very easy. We, O-U-I is yes in French and J-A is yes in German. So basically you have yes, yes. So that's the name of the board. And I have a whole chapter on the Ouija board in my book, Spellbound, The Paranormal Seduction of Today's Kids, which you can get as used copy or on Kindle actually get a percentage of the proceeds from Kindle. I don't get anything from the hard copies anymore. So if you're trying to decide which to do, go for the Kindle. But I have a whole chapter on the Ouija board and I read, believe it or not, I read three or four books on the Ouija board before I wrote that chapter. I already knew some things. I already had my article on the website on it. So I already knew some stuff. but I had never read a whole book on the Ouija board. And I read either three or four books. I know I read at least three on the Ouija board. I think two of them were secular and one was, um, was by a Christian. And I, uh, yeah. So I read a lot about the Ouija board. It was very interesting. It was very interesting. There's a lot of interesting stories connected to it. But essentially, what you're doing when you're playing with this is that if you think about it, you're asking a question usually. I mean, that's why people do it. They don't do it to give statements. They do it to ask questions. And so you have to stop and think, who am I asking this question to? You know, people who do the Ouija board on purpose who have no problem with it, you know, will say, well, I'm talking to the spirit of the board. Now, if Christians are playing around with it, when I talk to youth groups about it, I always say, well, who do you think you're talking to? You think you're talking to God? Because this isn't how God tells us to talk to him. You know, of course, nobody thinks they're talking to God when they do the Ouija board. Oh, yeah. They think it's some kind of who knows what, you know, some kind of something out there that will give the answer. Well, you have to think about what that something out there might be because it's definitely not God and it's not anybody has anything to do with God in a good way. What you're going to do is get a, you're going to get a, if you get any kind of answer or contact, it's going to be from a fallen angel. Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't doubt that at all. I got involved with Ouija boards when I was a young guy. And this, this being started communicating with me. They called him called himself Jake. And at first, he would give me all kinds of insight about various things that were going to happen that day and would tell me, you know, give me give me insight that would give me an edge in life. Well, pretty quickly, he started asking favors from me. And yeah, Yeah, yeah, and they continue to get darker and darker and darker. He would always try to justify it, these actions. But eventually, I mean, he started asking me to do some really evil things. And eventually I had to put it down. There was a point at which I realized this is wrong. Whatever this thing is that I'm talking to, it's not the departed spirit of some boy that got in a car wreck, which is what he tried to tell me that he was a young boy that got in a car wreck. Oh, yeah, it was fascinating. But downright evil and these things, whatever, you know, it's so demonic in how they will communicate with you and befriend you and lure you in. And next thing you know, you are far from God and you are doing things that you really shouldn't be doing. You're going to get in a lot of trouble. Yeah, absolutely. The Ouija board. Yeah, I there are two experiences in my life that or one was not with me involved, but it was with a group of girls at college. And one of them came knocking on my roommate was the advisor. She was a freshman advisor. And she was a senior. And so this freshman girl knocks on the door and she's crying. And she says, oh, this really scary thing happened down in Susan's room. Oh, it's so scary. And she's going on and on. And so my roommate goes with her down to the room. And I followed because I was, of course, very curious as to what was going on. And there was a group of girls in the room huddled around a Ouija board. And they all looked terrified. Now, of course, I was not a Christian at the time. Neither was my roommate. And they were just terrified. And they said we were, you know, asking the Ouija board questions. And then all these strange things started happening. They said the lights went off or went off and on and something fell. And they were so terrified. I mean, this was real. They were not putting on that, you know, one of them actually came down to get my roommate, I guess, just for some kind of comfort or something. And this is a really creepy part that they said that whoever was talking to them through the Ouija board said they were called Alpha and Omega. Oh. Yeah, I think that's pretty stupid. Now, at the time, that didn't mean anything to me. You know, I mean, I knew those were like, well, I had heard of Alpha and Omega. I knew that meant beginning and end. But I didn't know, I didn't know the Bible. So I didn't know that. you know, used in Revelation, and Jesus says that. He's the Alpha and Omega. So that, you know, once I knew that, you know, every time I think back to that story, I think that's really creepy. And then after college, I was living with some girls from college, including this roommate that I mentioned, who had been the freshman advisor. But I was doing the Ouija board with another girl. And she wanted to do it. And I think it was her Ouija board, because I actually never owned one. And until after I went into Christian ministry, I got one. I take it around with me when I speak to youth groups, or I used to, and show it. I would never do it, but I just would show it to explain to them what it really is. So we were asking questions, and this was supposedly a dead person talking to us. And, you know, at first it was kind of giving these benign answers and everything to our questions. And then all of a sudden it started turning kind of nasty. And I do not have any memory of what was said. I just know that it was giving these kind of dark statements. And my friend, well, actually what happened before that was that it started moving so fast over the letters. we had to call in the other girl, the one who had been my roommate in college, and ask her to write down, you know, we said, can you write these letters down? It's moving too fast for us. Because it was really moving fast. I mean, and I know I was not pushing it. And then it started saying these really creepy things. And my friend got freaked out. And she said, she just took her hands away. And she said, none of us were Christians, by the way. And she said, oh, she said, there's something really evil here. She said, I don't want to do this anymore. And she went up to her room. And I was very disappointed because I thought, well, it's just getting good. And you're going to your room. I was like, really? I mean, I was a little freaked out, but I was intrigued by it. It showed where my mind was in those days. So also, the Ouija board has been used as a point of contact for channeling books There's a series of books called the Seth Books written by Jane Roberts and Jane Roberts had been fooling around with the Ouija board and was contacted by this entity that called himself Seth and he began to give her messages and then eventually he told her you don't even need the Ouija board anymore, you just lie down and I'm going to speak through you and she would go into these trances kind of like Edgar Cayce. And her husband recorded what was said to her, which she never remembered when she came out of the trance. She did not remember it. And basically, Seth wrote three books through this woman. And they're extremely evil, demonic books. I read the first one, Seth Speaks. I was very, very heavily influenced by that book. It had a huge impact on me. you know and that was when I was really getting deep into the new age and it really spoke to me because of course the philosophy in it is this really esoteric demonic philosophy but it seemed so profound and that all came about through her using the Ouija board. Goodness. Boy, yeah, it's dark. They're really dark. And you are communicating with spirits that they will lead you astray. They will give you an edge in life only to lead you astray and get you involved in things that you really don't want to get involved with. And it's very dark. Yeah. Oh, you know, I guess in that same sort of in that same vein But I guess more in the in the vein of divination. What about tarot cards? Yeah, tarot cards would be another would be a form of divination like astrology and so would Numerology so really you can kind of talk about them together because they're just different forms of divination so tarot cards is reading a meaning and to see and image or images on the card and numerology is reading a hidden meaning in numbers and then trying to get a message from turning your name or birth date into numbers and tarot cards is you know laying out the cards in a certain pattern and that's supposed to have a message for the person. So it's similar to astrology it's just using a different form for it same with palm reading where the palm reader is looking at the lines on the hand and not just the lines, but sometimes the shapes too on the hand. So they're reading that because they're reading a meaning, a hidden meaning. And so there again, you have divination. So all of those are forms of divination. Numerology, astrology, tarot card reading, palm reading, tea leaf reading. um there's so many forms of divination I actually have an article on my website uh that's on divination so someone can go there and look under topics and I give many many many forms of divination and explain what it is and why it's you know not a good thing to do you don't want to try to get information that way you're not going to get information from God that way All these things, divination and sorcery and spirit contact, which we've been talking a lot about, are all forbidden in Deuteronomy 18, 10 through 12. And God lists all these practices there. Of course, he doesn't say palm reading, but you know, he says divination. And these were all forms of communication with pagan gods, with false gods. The very first part of that passage, God says, you will do not put your children in the fire, which was a child sacrifice to some of the false gods. And then he lists these practices of the occult. It's very interesting. It's listed with child sacrifice to these false gods, because this all had to do with their relationship with these gods. And of course, who are these gods? They're demons, they're fallen angels. Right, right. So if my listeners know somebody who's a believer, who is getting involved with the New Age movement, do you have any suggestions to them, like how to try to steer people away from that? If they know someone who's getting involved? Well, if the person is a Christian, then you can take them to scripture, or if they're open to what the Bible says. I think it's very important to tell people, you know, do you know that God has addressed that issue? Do you realize that God has said something about it? If it's any of these things we've talked about, they fall into those categories, most of what we've talked about tonight. Even if you get into things like the acupuncture or Reiki healing, you're talking about some kind of energy and they're getting it from some disembodied place. It really, I think, comes down to spirit contact. But many of these things are more obvious. So you can always say, this is something God has addressed. He denounced it. He forbids it. It's not from him. You're not getting the answers from God or the healing from God. Now, if they're not a Christian and they're not open at all, I really don't think, OK, this is my take on it. It's OK maybe to say something like, that is forbidden by God or that's not that's not from God. And if the person is just, you know, scoffed at that, really all you can do is pray for them. You can't, or you can try to share Christ with them. Trying to convince a non-Christian that astrology is bad or that you know, tarot cards are bad, or that Reiki is not a good idea, is really, in my opinion, kind of a waste of time. I think it's better to try to use the conversation, or maybe not even talk about those things, but, you know, just try to witness to them about Christ like you would anybody. I mean, you know, it doesn't matter if they're in the New Age or not. It just, you know, that's my thing is, you know, warn Christians about it. Give them scripture or people who say they're Christians. You can try it with a non-Christian. They might be receptive to it, but on the whole, they probably won't be because they don't care. You know, if you're saying God doesn't like it because their concept of God is completely different. Plus, even if you convince them, okay, it's not good to do the Ouija board, or it's not good to go see an astrologer, that's not really helping them in the long run. They need Christ in their life. So that's the priority. Right, right. So in other words, talking to them about a particular sin really isn't going to mean anything to them. until they really know who this God is who created everything and understand what He's done for us on our behalf. If you don't understand the holiness and righteousness of God, then nothing else I don't think really makes any sense at that point. I've had success talking to New Agers in the past, and it's usually lies in me trying to show them how the, you know, New Agers generally are interested in supernatural abilities, right? So when you take them to the prophecies in the Bible, and start showing them how these prophets of old, accurately, just absolutely, you know, razor sharp accuracy, depict various future events in these old books, That blows their mind and you show if you if you show them a good number of these prophecies And then you start moving them toward prophecies about this coming Messiah. I've been able to have success that way Do you have any other suggestions as far as like how to witness to a new wager? well, yeah, no, I agree with you on that and I I mean, you know, there are other things you can show the power that Jesus had over nature. Oh, yeah, the power, the power he had over illness, the power he had over, over the demons, you know, he, he demonstrated this power that was, of course, beyond human power. He resurrected bodily from the dead. There's no other religion that has that. You know, I think showing them the unique thing about Christ and talking about Christ and how unique he was living his life as Jesus, all the things that his life fulfilled, the prophecies, the power that he had over everything. And then his love, showing his love is very important. there really isn't any true love in the New Age. The word is used a lot, it's tossed around a lot, but actually it isn't there. The love is not, I don't mean these people don't love, but I mean when they talk about it, it's just a sort of abstract word that sounds good because they don't have any standard. There's no standard for that love because the New Age God is so fuzzy and undefined or sort of an energy or, you know, maybe the New Age God talks about love like he does in a lot of New Age books, but it's never defined. And since it's not the true God, it's not, there's no standard there. And I mean, love doesn't mean anything unless there's a standard for absolute love. And there is no absolute love in the New Age because there's no real God there. So there's no standard for that absolute love. So love can kind of just mean whatever you think it should mean. And so, you know, I think talking to them about what love really is and how we know it, how we know that it exists is from knowing this God who was, you know, the one who sent Jesus to Earth. And John is a good gospel, I think, to show people in the New Age because just of how it's written and the focus on the deity of Christ. I don't know. It depends on who you're talking to in your relationship. I often ask New Agers who they think God is. And then I listen to what they say. Sometimes it's inconsistent or it's very vague. And, you know, so I'll ask more questions or I'll ask them who they think Jesus was. And, you know, sometimes they'll say he was an enlightened spiritual person. He was a spiritual master. He was like Buddha, you know, and I give different answers on who they think Jesus was. Well, if you really, you know, if you if you really get into a dialogue, then you can say, oh, well, you know, Jesus said this. Or did you know Jesus did this? or whatever, you know, you can kind of get into a dialogue and share what you know about Jesus, and that way share true things about Jesus. So, you know, I think it's good to get into a dialogue with Him. Amen. Yeah, yeah, and just keep bringing it back to Christ, who He is, and what He's done. That's really good. Right, right. Really good. Well, you know, I realize now that we have gone really long. Marsha, okay. Your website, ChristianAnswersForANewAge.org, just a wealth of information. Would you say that's a good place where people can get a hold of you if they have any questions? Right. And I'm not sure I may have misunderstood you. I think you said ChristianAnswersForANewAge. It's actually ChristianAnswersForTheNewAge.org. Maybe that's what you said. I'm not even sure at this point, but you're right. It's Christian Answers for the New Age. You know, all one word, Christian Answers for the New Age. And I have a lot of articles on there. My story is on there. But the article is really mainly what people would probably want there. So I, of course, I can't cover everything, but I've tried to cover a wide range of popular things. And I continue, I continue to write I'm about to send another article to the man who graciously does my website, bless his heart. So I'm about to send him another article to go on there on angels. And then I have a few more articles that I'm working on. So I'm always putting up new articles. I try to do, you know, at least four or five new articles, or maybe even six a year. I haven't been too good at it this year. I only have one up there. But anyway, there's enough articles on there to read right now. And I'm on Facebook. If people want to find me on Facebook, I have a ministry page on Facebook. So if they do a search on Facebook, Christian Answers for the New Age, they should be able to find my ministry page, which they can like. And hopefully, it will show up in their news feed, or they can come to the page and check it, because I post a lot of stuff there. Yeah. Oh yeah. It's, it's really good. It's very informative and well, like your website, there's so much there that, you know, can keep you updated on all that is going on and, and various topics concerning the new age. It's, it's really good. Great resource. Well, uh, Marsha, thanks for coming on the show. It's been a blast. Well, it was great. Uh, Michael, thank you so much for your questions and, I think we covered quite a bit there. There's always more, but we did cover a lot. Yes, we did. We covered a lot of interesting stuff. We pretty much hit the whole thing. There is still some New Age practices that we did not touch, and something tells me over the years we're going to end up getting into those. in these podcasts as well. Eventually, I plan on drilling down on several of these practices and actually going real deep and getting a closer look and spending a whole podcast on several of these different issues. But whatever the case, yes, Marsha had a wealth of information. Her website, ChristianAnswersForTheNewAge.org. Thanks for listening. I love you guys. Singing out loud Declaration Singing out loud