Welcome to Watchman on the Wall, a daily outreach of Southwest Radio Ministries and SWRC.com. Today, archaeologist Scott Stripling continues to reveal what digging in Israel is really like, and why what is discovered there is important to Christians around the world. Friends, we continue to need your help. Historically, summertime giving is always slow, but this year, giving is at a critical level. Unfortunately, we're having to further cut expenses, and we need your help. Please continue to pray for Southwest Radio Ministries. Ask the Lord to provide the needed funds so that we can continue to proclaim the good news. And as your lead, please consider giving a gift to our summer relief effort. Your one-time and monthly gifts are needed. You can give when you call 1-800-652-1144. That's 1-800-652-1144. You can also give at our website, SWRC.com. Thank you, friends, for your prayers and continued financial support. Now, here's Clayton Van Hus and today's guest, Scott Stripling. Welcome to the program. We're so glad you joined us for Watchmen on the Wall. I'm your host today, Clayton Van Husk. I am the director of Affirm, the apologetics branch of Southwest Radio Ministries, and I am joined today by Dr. Scott Stripling. Dr. Stripling, welcome to the program. Glad to be back, Clayton. Great. So if you weren't here yesterday, Dr. Stripling is my mentor. He is the provost of the Bible Seminary in Katy, Texas, where I have been attending and working on my master's degree in biblical history and archaeology. He is also the president of the Near East Archaeological Society, and so that is a fascinating organization we'll talk about a little bit here in a minute. He is also the Director of Excavations for the Associates for Biblical Research, and that means he's an archaeologist, and he runs dig sites. We are actually in the city of Jerusalem today because we have been digging for the past five weeks at the site of biblical Shiloh. Dr. Stripling, can you tell us a little bit about what being an archaeologist means? Being an archaeologist, Clayton, is the opportunity to remain a kid, okay? You know, you get all this education and experience, but really we get to go dig in the dirt. And we do it slowly and carefully and scientifically and all of this, but we're able to take the historical record that's been left behind in the material culture And then take the texts that are relevant, in many cases for us it's the Bible because these are biblical sites, sometimes there are other texts as well, and then juxtapose them. Set them side by side so that there can be a dialogue between the two, or as I often say, to bring in illumination to the background of the biblical text. So that's what we do. That's very cool. So being an archaeologist, do you get chased by boulders and bad guys and things like that? We see the movies and we get all excited. What is the difference in the romantic version of an archaeologist and what an archaeologist really does? Yeah, if only it was that simple. I go in and I grab the artifact and the girl and off I go. It's, as you now know, after three full seasons of archaeological expertise and experience, that it's a slow, hard, tedious process. And there's a romantic notion, I agree, of archaeology, but once you set your alarm for 3.45 in the morning, and you do that four or five weeks, and you work in the heat and you deal with the issues and, you know, the foreign country brings its own challenges. Then you find out that that's only the fun part of it. Then the hard work starts, which is processing the fines through our protocols and the publications and so forth. Then you find out, you know, who really wants to be an archaeologist. Sure. So we have an intro, we're going to go a little side note here because I know a lot of our listeners They'll see things online, they'll watch videos where somebody has claimed to make some amazing discovery. They've found the Ark of the Covenant, or they've found Noah's Ark, or they've found any of a number of things. The remains of Pharaoh's army at the bottom of the Red Sea. We find all sorts of sensational claims. What should we do when we see these? Should we just say, yeah, that's great, that supports the Bible, or should we do something else? I think, Clayton, there is something within human nature. We like to know something others don't know. I'm always skeptical when we're trying to prove all the scholars wrong. I understand if somebody's saying, well, these liberal scholars are saying this, and these people are saying this, even if these people are in the minority, let's say on the right. But when there's not a single archaeologist that would agree with the position, and this is something coming to us from YouTube, from the evangelical right, then I think we should be very cautious because these scholars on the right, these aren't the bad guys. These are the good guys, okay, who spent their life studying the ancient languages and the culture. And Moses put it this way, and Jesus echoed it, at the mouth of two or three witnesses, let a word be established. And if there aren't at least two or three Conservative scholars who are agreeing with you, for example, if you're saying that the temple wasn't on the temple mount. Find me one archaeologist who agrees, just one, because I haven't found it yet. And so that would be a good rule of thumb for folks is join ABR. I mean, you'll get our quarterly magazine and our website is fantastic. And check those things out. You can just search right in the box and you'll find out what conservative scholars are saying about these controversial issues. Right. So there are actual scholars like yourself doing actual work, real archaeology, methodological, It is meticulous. Systematic. Yeah. Everything that's going on. And we have to go through peer review. Right. Okay. So our work, our ideas, they've got to be grilled through the peer review process and hammered out, which makes us be spot on because we're going to be, our feet will be held to the fire. When somebody's on their YouTube channel and he has 10 million views of something, that hasn't gone through peer review, so you can say anything that you want. Unfortunately, it makes it harder for those of us doing actual archaeology, because we need to raise money, we need to do the things that we need to do, and then people get burned by this pseudo-archaeology. Right. And you yourself have recently gone through, you're going through attacks today on one of the fines that you've made, the claims that you made, and then the peer review was published, and now you're getting attacked from other directions because of your claims. Of course, I'm talking about the Mountie Ball Curse Tablet that a lot of people know about. So you're the guy. Scott, you're the man. If you want to hear it from the horse's mouth, this is where it's coming from. Tell us about that find and about your process of getting it out there and how that works in a scholarly way. Well, and this is a good question because this shows you what you do. You have a find that is sensational. If we're right about the tablet, then it has a chiasm, you have a curse on it, and it dates to the period of Joshua ben Nun, and it comes from a place where the Bible says that he built an altar. It has the mention of the name of God, Yahweh, Yahu, the three-letter spelling. That establishes that Moses and Joshua were literate, that they could read and write. So, this is sort of cutting the legs out from under the documentary hypothesis, which is the basis of modern skeptical scholarship. So, if it's true, then it is sensational, okay? It's big. What do you do when you have a big claim like that? Well, you better be able to back it up. You better be able to get it through peer review, give the public the academic reasons why this is. And then they can agree or disagree. And that's how academia works. When the Kervit-Kaiapha ostracon was published 15 years ago by Yossi Garfinkel, since then 14 different articles have been published giving alternate interpretations of it. That's fine. Garfinkel did it the right way. He put it out there. And I think that's what we did with the Mighty Ball tablet too. Right, so we're seeing a lot of responses, which is what you want. If you publish something and everybody ignores it, then who cares, right? And you're getting responses both positive and negative. And that's fine. We said up front, when I first announced this, I said, I know there's going to be a divergence of thought here. because the script is so ancient it can be read forward or backward and horizontally and vertically and as the ox plows and so there's going to be different ways to read this. All I did with my collaborative team was to say after studying this for 18 months to the best of our ability and I as the lead researcher, this is what I think it likely says. Yeah, there are a lot of scholars who agree with you. I think it's interesting where you've got you mentioned the name of God written If so, this is, this is huge because people have been saying, well, you know, the Israelites were just Canaanites who kind of came out of the hills and started these cities or started their civilization and came together. But now we're seeing something that really looks like what the Bible's teaching us. It really does. You know, we have the song of pirate left down in Egypt and it has an inscription. which says the land of the Shasu of Yahweh. This is 1366 or thereabouts. I mean, mid 14th century BC. We already have a land with people who worship a God named Yahweh. Now that's down in Egypt, Nubia. And now what do we find in the land of Israel? Here we have the name Yahweh, also the three letter spelling. on the other end in Hebrew, early proto-alphabetic script. So it's super interesting. I hope people will study it and then arrive at their own conclusions. Sure. Listen, my career doesn't rise and fall on the Manny. I'm not the curse guy or whatever. I mean, the Manny Ball was fascinating, but my main project was Shiloh. I mean, that's what we were doing. That's what we are doing. And I hope people take it seriously. I hope they consider it as part of an overall view of what was happening at the time of the conquest. So, okay, so let's talk about your book for a minute, The Trowel and the Truth. Now, you're no stranger to writing. You've written some things in the past. You're actually working on something very interesting. Can you tell us a little about that? Well, I wrote an archaeological supplement, 50,000 words, for the Open Study Bible, which is about to have its 50th anniversary. And so they're updating the Open Study Bible. And so the archaeological supplement for 50 years is badly outdated. And so I wrote a new supplement, which will come out later this year in 2024. And if folks want a really cutting-edge tool, something that they can read alongside the Bible to give them, if you're reading the patriarchal narratives, do you really know anything about those lands, those cultures, the manners and customs and so forth of that time? So I've tried to bring all that in a very specific way. Kind of what an evangelical reader would want to know, how does this illuminate the biblical text? And so it'll be out later this year being published by HarperCollins. That is very cool. Another thing that I find interesting is in your book, The Trowel and the Truth, we look at dates, and everybody always wants to figure out, when did the Exodus happen? When did this happen? you know, when and where, how, we have a scholarly consensus of a timeline. Of course, evangelical scholars versus, say, atheists are going to have very different views on the age of the earth and on the ages of the, we find in the archaeological record, we find interesting things. Well, Jericho, We're just down the street from Jericho right now. And that is supposed to be one of the oldest, if not the oldest actual city in the world. How do we look at this in the book? I know you, you have a, a timeline comparison. So as we go through the ages, Bronze Age, Iron Age, the different ages, how does a believer look, and do we look at secular scholars and say, well, they've just disproven the Bible because they're showing us there was a lot more time or whatever? How do we handle that as believers, balancing between what Scripture says and what it appears that people are, the conclusions are coming to? Yeah, at least the majority consensus. Glad you asked that. I deal with it in the book at the beginning. And I just lay out what is the traditional chronology. And you know, as a student of mine, that you have to learn that traditional chronology or else you won't understand the literature. So we're going to say, for example, that the Chalcolithic period was 4,500 to 3,500 BC roughly. And, you know, we'll go through each of the time periods. And then what I do is I set side by side an alternate chronology for folks to consider. If we did have a universal flood and if it was around 3,200, 3,250 BC, Then that means that the traditional date for the Neolithic cities, pre-pottery Neolithic and post-pottery Neolithic, Chalcolithic, and really most of the early Bronze Age, those are out of whack. The rest of it, once we get to the lifespan of Abraham, for example, for dating Abraham around 2000 BC, Then we're syncing with the traditional chronology. It's before that that we have a variance. And I think it's very interesting that the average archaeological time period is about 400 years. The Late Bronze Age is 400 years. The Middle Bronze Age is 400 years. But when we get the Chalcolithic, it's a thousand. The Neolithic is four, five, six thousand, depending on what you're doing with it. Yet it's the same amount of material in the archaeological record, but we're assigning 6,000 years to it. There were a lot of presuppositions at that time, for example, that certain cultures couldn't coexist. You couldn't have primitive cultures and advanced cultures existing at the same time. We now know, just look at the pygmies in Africa, we now know that that very well can be the case. So, I think we need to rethink those earlier time periods in light of that. And I need a future PhD student to come along and say, hey, we're going to go back and look at the critical strata at each one of these archaeological sites, you know, Hatsuo to Megiddo and everything in between. And we're going to reassign them in light of an alternate chronology. So at least you have an alternate way of looking at it. You can't beat something with nothing. Right. Yeah, you've got to have an answer. And I think that's a very wise way to look at it. We don't panic. We trust that the Lord knows what he's talking about. And we read the text. We read the scripture. And we need to look, like you said, someone to come along in the future to sit down, go through this. Maybe one of our listeners. That's right. I think that would be awesome. I wrote a chapter in Zondervan's book, Five Years on the Exodus, and I dealt with a critical dating issue of a carbon offset. This is not an evangelical thing or a stripling thing. This is an issue in the Levant among all scholars. Why do we, about 1400 BC, have carbon dates that cease to be reliable? They match. Our pottery dates match our radiocarbon dates up until about 3,400 years ago, and then they begin to stray. And the further back you go, the more that they stray. That's a fact. And so we have to overlay that when we're talking about these early time periods, because when the Chalcolithic and Neolithic dates were assigned, there was not even an awareness of a carbon offset. If we're looking at the Bible correctly, what is somewhere around the lifetime of Moses? Yeah, I mean, the time that we would need it the most, because we use, right? This morning I separated 26 carbon samples that we're going to take for this year. But the problem is when it could help us with this critical issue of the timing of the exodus and conquest, that's when we have to be most careful with radiocarbon dates. But before that, if they're taken correctly and calibrated correctly, then we find them to be very accurate. So, people will often, they'll come down on biblical scholars who believe the Bible, and they'll tell us, well, you're biased, you're an evangelical, you're of course going to come to these conclusions. Aren't they guilty of the same thing themselves? Absolutely. I've always laughed when the idea that because I'm a believer, I can't be dispassionate. I can't, that I'm going to just blindly ignore evidence and arrive at a different, that is not at all the case any more than I should say that someone is an agnostic. Therefore he's going to manipulate the evidence to seem that it doesn't. That's let's just deal with the facts on the ground, not these ad hominem sorts of attacks. Yeah, absolutely. So let's talk just a few minutes here. We've gone through some of the things. So the book is the trowel and the truth. Of course, the trowel talking about archaeology, the truth, the Bible, God's word. And so we're pulling the two of them together. So you and I I have the privilege of working for you at Tel Shiloh. Tell us what is Tel Shiloh? It sounds like, I don't know, it's a weird sounding thing. It's an amazing site. It was Israel's first capital. So Joshua 18.1 says that at the end of the conquest period around 1400 BC, that Joshua ordered the tabernacle to be erected at Shiloh. And seven tribes that had not yet received their allotments came there, they received them, then they went out to possess their possessions. Joshua's hometown is just a few miles away at Timnah HaRez, and it's now under excavation by a brilliant Israeli archaeologist named David Raviv. We had the opportunity to excavate Israel's first capital. And how amazing is that? And we knew some things from the biblical text. And now, as I have published also from the Amarna letters. So it's it's a fascinating study. I want to give your listeners an interesting homework assignment. All right. Go to Judges chapter 21 and you'll find the first ways or the first GPS. All right. And just type this in and it will tell you in Judges 21 exactly where Shiloh was and how to get there. It gives you three data points and you follow those and guess where it leads you. Edward Robinson found that in 1838. He followed those three data points and it led him to Kermit Ceylon, which is what we are excavating today. And we know because of inscriptions was biblical Shiloh. That's not an accident, Clayton. The Bible is giving us real people, real places, real events, real geography, real topography. Yeah, that is something that you certainly drive into us as students. So there is something you've mentioned to me before, so I want to get you talking about that a little bit, in that we can dig in the ground and we can find the evidence of things that have happened before. The Bible is a supernatural book. It makes supernatural claims. Are we able to find evidence of the supernatural in the ground, or do we find something else that maybe helps us to relate? That's a great question. As an archaeologist, I can, for example, I'm doing some new research on crucifixion, preparing a new peer-reviewed article on crucifixion and examining the remains of crucified victims just a couple of miles from where we're sitting. I think in the end, I could prove to you or someone else that Jesus existed, the historical Jesus. I could prove when he died, where he died, and how he died. But what I cannot prove is that he died in your place. That's an act of faith. That's a work of the Holy Spirit that brings a person to conviction and ultimately to faith. We bring evidence out of the ground, we illuminate it, and then the difference between fact and truth is an issue of faith. See, and that's the thing that first brought me to the Bible Seminary, brought me to be your student, is the idea that you're a man of science, you dig in the ground, you analyze the data, but you're also a man of faith. You believe what the scripture says, and you are finding where the two work together. Any last thoughts on that before we're actually coming to the end? Well, just keep reading and keep digging. How about that? Okay, that sounds good. Come dig with us, right? How can people dig with us? digshilo.org. digshilo.org. And we're here right now in the middle of this war, and yet it has been safe. It has been good. We're confident that next year things will be better and folks will feel more comfortable coming, and we'd love to have them join us. All right, Scott, thank you. The book is The Trowel and the Truth. The author is Dr. Scott Stripling. How can we find out more about you? Okay, my personal website is scottstripling.net. To learn about the school, it's thebibleseminary.edu. We're an accredited school with an archaeology program. And then to learn about the dig, it's digshilo.org. And I might add that you can do the Bible Seminary online. That's right. From wherever you are. And as part of the requirements of the archaeology program, of course, you're going to have to come with a scripture. That's right. So, thank you so much, Scott. I'm your host, Clayton Van Hus. And the book is The Trowel and the Truth. In our resource spotlight today, we are featuring Scott Stripling's excellent book, The Trowel and the Truth, a guide to field archaeology in the Holy Land. This book gives readers a masterful treatment of the how and why of biblical archaeology. Order your copy today when you call 1-800-652-1144. That's 1-800-652-1144. You can also order at our website, swrc.com. The Trowel in the Truth is an important and timely book for at least two reasons. First, archaeological work in the Holy Land continues to make good progress, resulting in exciting discoveries and fresh insights. Dr. Stripling's book informs readers of many of these recent and important discoveries. Secondly, archaeology greatly aids in the interpretation of scripture. Be informed and have your faith encouraged and affirmed when you dive into the pages of Scott Stripling's book, The Trowel and the Truth. Order this outstanding book today when you call 1-800-652-1144. That's 1-800-652-1144. Now, here's Dr. Larry Spargimino with an important update about the ongoing work in Pakistan. This is Pastor Larry. Pastor Victor Samuel is on the phone with me. He is, of course, the CEO of Grace Charity School in Pakistan. Friends, this is our final appeal. We need your help. The school is unable to meet its financial obligations. The situation is critical. Our economy in America is in terrible shape. Discretionary spending on charities is very limited because of conditions in America. And of course, this is an election year, a very, very important election coming up. Hello, Pastor Victor. So nice to be with you. Hello, Pastor Ray. How are you? I'm doing good, and it's so nice to be with you as well. Pastor Victor, tell us what will happen to these children, 400 or more children, boys and girls, what will happen to them without Grace Charity School? Well, hello everyone. God bless you. If the schools close, it could further accelerate the issue. Many of these children are forced to work alongside their parents in the bricklayers, exposing them to hazardous conditions and limiting their opportunities for education and social mobility. Those old work alongside their parents in bricklayers. often for 12 hours a day in hazardous conditions. And many families are trapped in the debt bondage, forcing children to work to pay off loans. Inadequate food and nutrition lead to stunted growth and related health issues. Because for these children and for these people, medical care is often unavailable or unaffordable. Children are at risk of physical, emotional, and sexual abuse. At the end, I must say it is important to raise awareness. So guys, you know, this is... We close the schools. Things are going to be very worse for these children. Me and Pastor Larry and some of my family members have worked very hard to rescue these children. We have now hundreds of children who are only looking to us because they don't have anyone else to take care of. If he closes these schools, they will not have anywhere to go. I am speaking from the bottom of my heart. Please call our toll-free number, 1-800-652-1144. 1-800-652-1144. And if all you can do for us is pray for us, we would love that as well. Pastor Victor, thank you so much for being with us. Thank you so much too, Brother Larry. In our resource spotlight today, we're featuring Scott Stripling's excellent book, The Trowel and the Truth, a guide to field archaeology in the Holy Land. This book gives readers a masterful treatment of the how and why of biblical archaeology. Order your copy today when you call 1-800-652-1144. That's 1-800-652-1144. You can also order at our website swrc.com. The trial and the truth is important and timely for at least two good reasons. First, archaeological work in the Holy Land continues to make good progress, resulting in exciting discoveries and fresh insights. Secondly, archaeology and its discoveries aid in the interpretation of Scripture. Dr. Stripling's book informs readers of many of these recent and important discoveries. Order the trial and the truth today when you call 1-800-652-1144. That's 1-800-652-1144. Lord willing, we'll be back here Monday, ready to once again bring clarity to the chaos. Head into the weekend with the encouragement that God is still on the throne and prayer changes things. Watchman on the Wall is a production of Southwest Radio Ministries and is supported by faithful listeners like you. Visit SWRC.com.