Oh, the gospel will overcome in a world full of sorrow, by evil over all. You're listening to The Dean's List, an analysis of news, culture, and theological trends from a biblical worldview. This is your place for intelligent conversation on the relevant issues of our day. And now, here's the host of The Dean's List, Dr. Paul Dean. All right, Mary, there's been a media buzz about a new Pew Research poll that says that 78% of white evangelicals plan to vote for Donald Trump this fall. Did you say 78? 78% of white evangelicals plan to vote for Donald Trump. Everybody's talking about it. Okay. And here's the deal just for me. Now we're going to wade into some stuff here, but I'm just going to throw this out there. Everybody is talking about it. A lot of folk, what? How can evangelicals vote for Trump? A lot of folk lamenting that. All the people that are questioning how evangelicals could vote for Trump, I'm not a big Trump fan, not a big Trump supporter. I get the character issues. I get a lot of stuff. But I just think there's a lot of either ignorance or hypocrisy out there. And I don't mean that ugly either way. Well, I guess hypocrisy would be, well, it wouldn't be ugly if I'm saying it in love, and I am, but ignorance, there's a lot of ignorance out there. If you're going to object to evangelicals voting for Donald Trump over Hillary Clinton, but you had no problem with evangelicals voting for Mitt Romney or John McCain or George Bush or Ted Cruz or Marco Rubio or Jeb Bush or Chris Christie or John Kasich or whoever, you get what I'm saying? I get what you're saying. You're killing me. Not you, but they. Yes. They're killing me. Anyway, I'm not mad about it. Just don't get it. I am mystified. I mean that sincerely. I'm mystified in the morning. Okay. I'm mystified in the evening too, just so you know. Mystified, just going to say it. That's my word today. So anyway, Thomas Kidd, he's a history professor out at Baylor University now. They got an article. He's written a piece here. I don't know why it's out on the Gospel Coalition. Man, they're going and getting stuff from a lot of other sources now. I'm not even going to comment on that. That's fine. I have no problem with that. I'm not a big Gospel Coalition fan anyway. um not that they're not brothers and evangelicals and conservative and all that i mean it's okay i look i learned i shouldn't even say i shouldn't have said that on the air why'd i say that i don't know just i forgive me you eat the fish spit out the bones yeah i know it well you just gotta be you know you gotta be part of the club you gotta know all the buzzwords the lingo anyway Um, I'm just, you know, I don't like cultural, I don't know, club stuff. I don't like being, you know, gotta be a member of the club. Can't, can't, uh, anyway, nevermind. Maybe that's why you're going outside the club. Maybe. Maybe. Anyway, go ahead. History guy, Baylor. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Thomas Kidd, here's what he says. The survey, this Pew Research survey, um, confirmed that the religious right is alive and well. Of course, that's a relative term. It's certainly not the moral majority anymore, right? Yeah, that's right. But anyway, he says the religious right is alive and well and it remains beholden to the Republican Party. Absolutely true. See, it seems like he's lamenting that. And look, I lament that too. Not because they're voting for Trump. But because they're beholden to the Republican Party. Because they're beholden to the Republican Party. That's exactly right. He says whomever the GOP might nominate. Here's my question. Why didn't you write this article when Mitt Romney was running? Maybe Thomas Kidd did. I don't know. Yeah, who knows? Maybe he wrote it with McCain, but there's a lot of people writing articles like this saying things like, oh my goodness, the evangelicals are tied to the GOP no matter who they nominate. And they're saying it in response to Trump, but not Romney, not McCain. This is my beef. What's my beef? It's my beef. He says, however, a number of key evangelical leaders remain opposed to Trump, even as an alternative to the equally unacceptable Hillary Clinton. Now, wait a minute. Equally unacceptable. You're all right. Now look, let's listen. I'm not waving the Trump banner, but you're telling me that Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are equally unacceptable. Really? Okay, fine. Why not Romney and Hillary or Romney and Barack? Well, or McCain and Barrett, why are they not equally unacceptable? Why all of a sudden is it Trump? This is what I mean when I say either ignorance or hypocrisy. And I'm tired of it. And I mean that sincerely, not angrily, but sincerely, I'm tired of it. I don't even want to talk to some of my pastor acquaintances anymore about politics. I just don't. Because I say it, I say it, I say it, they nod their head, they seem like they get it, and then they go back and they agree with stuff like this. They're either not going to vote for Trump or, you know, they hate Trump. Oh, but Romney, oh, oh, we're the Halcyon days of Mitt Romney. We love Mitt Romney. I'm just saying. All I can do is sit over here and smile, but no one can hear that. Oh, no. See, you're smiling because you wish I weren't so over the top in my rhetoric. Always hyperbolic, yes you are. Huh? You're always hyperbolic. Yeah, hyperbolic, throwing down. Listen, I've changed the definition of the word hyperbolic. You're using it properly. You say I'm exaggerating to make a point, throwing beyond. I say I'm throwing down. Okay, whatever. I'm not exaggerating. But, you know, eyeball to eyeball, I'm much quieter, I'm much nicer. If I'm in a lecture, I'm going to try to be more, I don't know, subdued. Something happens when I get behind this microphone. I don't know. I don't know what it is. You know, I want to fancy myself a John the Baptist, you know, in terms of throwing down, but, uh, I don't know. Probably not. I'm just, I'm grieved. That's all I can tell you. I'm so, I don't, I don't know what to do. I mean, honestly, if you want to get right down to it, I kind of put on the, doesn't matter, we shouldn't even go down this road, but I just kind of put on the voice, you know, but I'm, I'm really grieved. I just, I am, I'm, I just don't even talk nearly as much as I used to. Anyway, um, here, here, here's Thomas Kidd, you know, Trump and Hillary, equally unacceptable. Okay, Thomas, fine. He asks a question though, it's an important question. Who are these rank and file Trump supporters? Who are these rank and file Trump supporters who tell pollsters that they're evangelical? Wish they wouldn't do that. That's the implication. You can't be an evangelical if you're voting for Trump. That's his implication. Hey, by the way, I'm not a Trump fan, but I am definitely an evangelical. In fact, I'm probably more conservative than most and I'm voting for Trump. Over Hillary. Yeah. And guess what? I'm also a church goer. You'll know what that means in just a moment. Oh, and guess what? I'm also educated. You know what that means in just a moment. You know, like to say, well, it's only the non church going evangelicals that are voting for Trump. Or the uneducated. It's only the uneducated folk that are voting for Trump. Yeah. Whatever. Who are these evangelicals or people that tell rank-and-file Trump supporters that tell pollsters they're evangelicals? Who is it that darkens the door of God's chamber? It's kind of like... What do they believe? Thomas Kidd wants to know. Do they attend church? Do their lives reflect the transforming experience of grace? Well, you know what? For the most part, probably not. But you know what, that's true. That's true whether they vote for Trump or not. That was true of all those same people who voted for Romney. Yeah, when you said the religious right, I wanted to say you mean the religious mush, you know, middle. Yeah, so there's a sense in which I'm agreeing with Thomas Kidd here. But, you know, I don't know. It's the whole Trump thing that's just bugging me. Maybe if Thomas weren't. Yeah. Maybe if Thomas were here, he'd, he'd be ready. He's like, wait a minute. Wait a minute. I would say the same thing about Romney McCain. Maybe he would say that. I don't know. It's just not the way the article comes across, but anyway, you know what? And he might even imply that, but it's not the conversations that I've had or that the real conversations that are going on across the nation. So that's why I'm anyway. He says, I would suggest that these poll results point to a wholesale watering down and politicization. Why did I not say that right the first time? That's usually me. Politicization. Politicization. Politicizing. Politicization. Watermelon. Watermelon. Watermelon. Watermelon. Ryan. All right, go ahead. Look at scoreboard and see who's behind. Hillary. Oddly enough, that's what the polls seem to be saying here. Listen, I've been saying Trump's gonna win. I'm the only one. Been saying it for months and months. You know what? I'm not a prophet. Not gonna gloat. Not very smart. Not bragging. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not arrogant. Hey, I said that Trump would win Iowa. And oh, anyway, I'm not even going to mention his name, but, uh, Dace, Steve Dace, he said he wasn't. He said Cruz was going to win Iowa. I said, no way Trump's going to win. Guess what? Cruz won. Okay. So I was wrong. Dace was right. Dace is one of these guys that doesn't know how you can vote for Trump, by the way, but he's all good. He's all cozy with Romney. Whatever. Okay, let me back it up. Dial it back. Get off the hyperbole and quit throwing fire. Thank you. All right. So we're talking about the watering down and, uh, politi- Don't try it again. You got past it. You need to move on. Politicization. There it is. Politicization. What is wrong with me? Um, not a word I say every day, just so you know. of the term evangelical. That's what we're talking about. He says, in American pop culture parlance, evangelical now basically means whites who consider themselves religious and who vote Republican. That's pretty true. We've been lamenting that for a long time ourselves, haven't we? Talks about the fact that early evangelicals specifically fought against cultural Christianity. I believe that. Yeah. Well, see, you know, today, you know, his point is, and I agree with this point wholeheartedly. You got just cultural Christians. They're conservative. They might be a member of a church and they vote Republican. And so they, you know, a pollster ask them, you know, how they identify and they say, oh, well, I'm an evangelical. And that's kid's beef. Thomas Kidd, that's his beef. Of course, I don't know if anybody out there is like I am. When somebody calls on a poll, I give all, I give different answers every time they call just for fun. I know. Because I'm tired of them calling. That's right. Maybe, anyway. You give the wacky answers. I do. They don't call back. A lot of time they don't. It's good. Don't want them to call back. Anyway, so. Yeah, historically, if you lived in England, for example, or the colonies, you had to be baptized as a baby. And once you're baptized, you're regarded as Christian. And people fought against that. George Whitfield, for example, said things like, you must be born again. He was booted out of the church for that. He took a stand. See, you had cultural Christianity back then, and then, of course, you had the Whitfields, for example. Then you had a great awakening, and you still had issues. Kids pointing out, he said, you know, all these guys stood against the cultural Christianity. Well, that's not true. I mean, the Whitfields did, but, you know, that presupposes that there was a lot of cultural Christianity going on. So it's not anything new. But he says swimming against the stream of culture, the evangelicals of the great awakening preached against nominalism and national faith, declaring that you must be born again. The born again believer would find a radically different kingdom minded way of life in the community of the redeemed. And that is absolutely true. And that is what we need in the church today. And that is what we do not have. And that's what kid's talking about. What'd you think? It sounds like that's right. Yeah. Now what Thomas Kidd does in his piece, you know, he talks about the fact that, okay, we're a little bit different now. He's just talking about evangelicals in this term. It's a historical term. It's got historical connotations and baggage and all the rest. We're not going down that road. But the point he's making is that evangelical, the term has been corrupted today. It means something different today than it meant, say, a hundred or two hundred years ago. And he points to three factors, three factors that have led to the corruption of the term. You ready for these? And then we're going to make our own comments. We've already been doing that, of course. All right. But he's going to point to three factors. Number one. By the way, these are factors, one more time, in case, you know, the listeners are drifting in and out. Factors that point to the corruption of the term evangelical. Number one, the success of the evangelical movement itself. Why would he say that? I mean, you know, things get successful, they get popular and there's an automatic watering down, isn't there? I mean, I think that's true with anything. You see that when, you know, generation after generation values that people had are watered down. He says by the mid 20th century, many Americans could grow up imagining that they were evangelicals because that term seemed in some quarters equivalent to Protestant, Christian, or even American. You know, how many pieces have I read? Well, nevermind. That's another subject, but that's right. Most Christians, they equate, if you're a good American, you're a good Christian. And if you're a good Christian, you're a good American. And if you say you're a Christian and King Jesus is ultimate, but you're not a good American, then a lot of people question your Christianity. So there's some syncretistic confusion going on there. And that's not throwing beyond. That's not hyperbole. All right. Second, talking about factors that led to the corruption of the term evangelical. By the way, here's, here's a statement from before I move on. He says, uh, here's what people think. Now you are born evangelical, not born again, evangelical. I can make a comment on that, you know I can. Oh, I know. It's in my favorite book. Say it! The Evils of Infant Baptism. RBC Howe, you talk about throwing fire. But yes, I can agree, you're right. You're born an Evangelical. I would have thrived in the 1800s, because my rhetorical throwing down or throwing beyond would have been mild. It's such a melancholy evil. As he would say. That's right. But anyway, that's what it leads to, that you're born Christian. I know. Even though, you know, they try to say no you're not, but that's what it leads to generation after generation. What would you just say? I just want to clarify. What do they say? It's a most melancholy evening. No, no, no, no, but... That you're born, you know, you were born as a covenant child. Oh, yeah. Generation after generation, that loses its meaning, so rather than... Sure. It ended up bearing fruit. Look, if you read Westminster, it says in there that... If you read the Westminster, Paulus Baptist out there would be appalled. Well, the sign, infant baptism, the sign of baptism signifies the same thing for the infant that it does for the adult, that you're basically born again. And people say, oh, it doesn't say that. Read it. And you say, well, we don't believe that. That's fine. People in the pew do. Yes, I do. I have many, many, many, I'm not exaggerating, let me say it one more time, many, many, many Presbyterian friends who would tell me their children are guaranteed heaven. Yes. Because they're covenant children. Especially in our counseling ministry when we have to deal with issues when we're like, they're not born again. But they will be. So you've got to practice it. You can't prove and support with scripture. I understand covenant theology, I really do. But you can't really prove it or support it. And then you've got people in the pews thinking that their children are guaranteed heaven. That's an evil. Just like Southern Baptist easy-believism is evil. True that. Right? The way we, you know... Yeah, I was gonna say Baptist is not Baptist anymore either. Walk the aisle, get baptized, just pray this prayer, ask Jesus into your heart. And go to a rock concert every week. You know, you get your spiritual birth certificate in your back pocket, that is a most melancholy evil as well. Alright, so I'm an equal opportunity... You know, calling out our particular practice is evil. You want to have a theological discussion, let's just sit down and talk about it eyeball to eyeball. I'm happy to do it. I'm not just throwing fire here. What's the second reason? Second factor that's led to the corruption of the term evangelical, he says the political alignments of the 1970s and 1980s. In those decades, evangelicals began gravitating away from candidates with personal evangelical backgrounds, like George McGovern and Jimmy Carter. Now, I don't know what Thomas Kidd is implying. He might just be stating a fact, OK? But who in the world would vote for George McGovern or Jimmy Carter, even if they do claim to be evangelicals? He doesn't age, Jimmy. Well, sure. But here's the point. Do you just want to vote for somebody because they're evangelical or because they talk a good game, or are you looking for somebody who's going to be better for the civil society in which we live, whether he's an evangelical or a pagan? See, that's what we got to get straight and not be embarrassed about. The average evangelical and the average evangelical pastor who particularly is lamenting the whole Trump thing, what they are is they don't understand what we're voting for. That's number one. And they're embarrassed to say, well, I could vote for a pagan if he were better for our civil society than an evangelical. I wouldn't vote for Billy Graham for president. I wouldn't vote for, I for sure wouldn't vote for any Presbyterian for president. And let me qualify that. Let me be kind. I'm talking about my theonomic Presbyterians. How about that? Now, do I love my theonomic Presbyterian brethren? Do I read their commentaries? Do I glean a lot from them? Sure. Do I agree with them on a whole host of other issues? Sure. Do we agree with about 85, 90%? Sure. But don't give me a theonomist in government office. No, no, no, no, no. That's what us Baptists fought for, the separation. That's exactly right. Separation of church and state. Give me Thomas Jefferson. He's a pagan. I'll take him. He at least understood the Constitution. He understood the Constitution, understood liberty. Wasn't perfect. Anyway, see where I'm coming from? All right. Is that number two? Yeah, well he said, you know, evangelicals began to gravitate toward people like Richard Nixon, who defended the Senate majority. Richard Nixon? Well, I'm talking about the way he talked and what he ran on. Okay. Yeah. Wow. Wasn't he a cusser and a denier? He sure was a cusser, that's for sure. That's true. Claimed to be a Quaker. I wonder what kind of Quaker he is. Cussing Quaker, yeah. Cussing Quaker, denying Quaker. But anyway, he says this tendency culminated in the election of Ronald Reagan in 1980 who knew many evangelicals... Reagan? Go ahead, keep going, I'm just laughing. No, no, I'm not being ugly. What? I'm laughing too, but you've got to hear what he says. You've got to hear the full import, the full impact. He says Reagan knew many evangelicals, but he was not one himself. And you know what? I agree with that. But you tell the average pastor today that Ronald Reagan was not an evangelical, you're going to get in a fight. Well, maybe not a fight, but they're going to be like, what? Well then no, they're gonna get mad. Well, maybe the average pastor, I know some. Not in my personal circles now, let me just be clear on that. But pastors that I am aware of, they will, oh, they'll shout you down. Ronald Reagan is God's gift to America. Oh, wait a minute, he was a pagan. Well, not gonna judge his heart, but probably. He says, Reagan mastered the art of talking like evangelicals and promising progress on issues like school prayer and abortion. By the way, this is part of what I'm talking about. I don't want school prayer. Well, we don't want government school, but that's another topic. That's right. But, you know, you send your kids to government school, you ought not be forced to pray what the government wants you to pray. I mean, come on. Are we, do we understand history? Do we understand theology? Do we understand the scriptures? Do we understand civil society? These are the things that I'm talking about. He said, wait a minute, you're not conservative. You don't want school prayer. Oh, I'm conservative. The problem is I believe in the Bible. I don't want state religion. I'm a Baptist. I'm a Bible believer. Yeah. Now are we anti-abortion? Absolutely. Should abortion be outlawed? Abortion be outlawed? Absolutely. Abortion should be outlawed. It's murder. We don't have a civil society right now. We got one group of people simply because they have power who can indiscriminately murder another group of people in our culture and nobody does a thing about it, including the police. They can't, in fact, they can't do a thing about it. That's the problem. He goes on to say that Reagan didn't make any progress on those issues. Maybe meager, but not much. He did appoint a notable exception. He did appoint Scalia to the Supreme court. Reagan did some good things. Listen, I'm not an anti-Reagan guy. No, that's why you're saying you'd vote for Trump. Well, sure, I could vote for Reagan. He wouldn't be my first choice. Our first choice got out early. I'm not fooled, but I could still vote for Reagan. I'm just trying to clarify that because people say, wait a minute, he's the best. Well, of all that we've had, he's probably one of the best. He's not as good as Thomas Jefferson. But, but in my lifetime from Kennedy forward, Reagan's been the best that we've had in my lifetime. I'll agree with that. Oh, let's see here. So that tells folk where I'm at, but I'm not stupid either. But see, what Kit is getting at is that really from that point, self-identifying white evangelicals have often been okay with candidates who learn evangelical lingo and who promise good Supreme Court appointments, whatever the candidate's other positions and background. And he's saying that's why they're willing to go with Trump. That's not why I'm going with Trump, by the way. But anyhow, because I don't believe Trump or Romney or McCain. Of course, Romney's not an evangelical, he's a Mormon. but you know i don't for one minute believe see the republicans have been lying to us for so long the republicans had a majority in the house and in the senate they could have overturned roe v wade but they wouldn't do it because because they they don't they're they're liars they're liars They're not pro-life. They say they're pro-life, but they're not. And over and over and over and over again. And that's why Trump has popularity. It's not because these evangelicals believe that Trump is one of them. It's not because they believe that he's just like Romney or McCain. It's that they believe he's a little bit different. They are sick of the Romneys and McCains. Or at least a lot of them are. And I'm one of them. Trump wasn't my first choice. Not saying that, but I know where some of his popularity is coming from. Anyway, third factor that corrupted the term evangelical modern political polling, he says basically pollsters don't understand the people they're polling, and so the most serious problem with understanding evangelical political behavior is letting respondents define their own religious affiliation. Yeah, maybe pollsters ought to have more sharply defined categories, but pollsters don't even understand evangelicals, so I'm not sure, you know, what his... Well, polls are just statistics. Yeah. Limited by the question. And it's not whether they understand it or not, it's that their questions, you know, how many of you have taken polls? Their questions are so narrow, you know, you're going to say, all right, are you this or this? Well, okay, I identify as an evangelical more than that, you know? So that is the problem. Well, that's right. That's exactly right. It's the poll makers. So we're running out of time. Issues that I want to put on the table already. We put the big one on why is it the church going evangelicals or those with a deep understanding of the term won't vote for Trump, but they're happy to vote for Romney or McCain or Kasich or Bush or Christie or whoever. I think it's because these other guys talked more like evangelicals. I think so. They seemed to have more moral character. If you're lost, you're lost, just so you know. Romney's lost, just so you know. And because they believe their lies, which indicates a lack of scriptural discernment. How about some discernment out there, Christians? And after these conversations that we're having, why in the world would they still vote for Romney or McCain? Which they would. It's because they somehow think that those guys are more godly than Trump, and they are not. John McCain, Mitt Romney, they are not more godly than Trump. Trump's not godly. But neither is Mitt Romney. He's a nice guy, but he's not a godly guy. You understand what I'm saying? He's a pagan. See, and they think that God is pleased because we're going to vote for the more godly candidate. Mitt Romney, I'm just pulling his name out. Marco Rubio, he's not a more godly candidate. I'm sorry. There's that music. Why don't we put a biblical filter on all the candidates and use some spiritual discernment and look at the big issues that a president might really deal with. And really there's a better answer to all of that. And that's what we're going to talk about next time on The Dean's List. The opinions expressed on today's program are those of the announcers, their guests, and callers, and do not necessarily represent those of the staff and management of his radio network, the Radio Training Network, or iHeartMedia.