What's up, y'all? Welcome to The Dividing Line. I kind of want to call it the DL the whole time. I like that. DL, you know? My name is Vocabalone. There is no Dr. James White in the studio today. We're missing him. But I think this is going to be a historic episode. I hope that he enjoys it. But most of all, I'm praying that this episode is used by the Lord to bless folks. In the studio, Chilomer Rich. What's up, Rich? Always good to see you. And let me give a brief introduction to today's very special show, why we're doing all of that. A little while ago, the Lord brought to my attention a movement happening in our cities called the Hebrew Israelites. Sometimes people call them different names. We're just gonna call them the Hebrew Israelites, a name I think they're okay with. and over time I took more and more note of it mainly because of the interesting mixture of doctrines and the effect it was starting to have on the minds of a lot of my friends on the minds of people I come across with and also out in the streets when you're walking out and about and you hear somebody shouting all of that so The Lord has opened up a pathway for me to really begin to kind of dig in and try to understand this community better, the Hebrew-Israelite community. I've learned a lot since I've done this. There's things I would have done differently if I would be starting right now. But here we are. And I'm very thankful to Alpha Omega Ministries and James White because he heard some of the stuff I was doing and said, hey, let's talk to that guy. And the guy that I'm talking about, of course, is Adil Raqqa, GOCC. And what's happened is there's just been a new light. that has shined on this very important issue. And I'm thankful that the Lord has done it that way. He's using imperfect vessels, but I'm glad it's happened. I'm glad that apology was down. I'm glad that a lot of people kind of took a step, took a risk in something they didn't really know about. They weren't really sure people would even be interested in if it was relevant, but they took a chance and now we see it is relevant. It is important. And so I'm going to read a scripture out of the King James Version from Titus, and then I'm going to bring up our guest today and explain what we're doing in relationship to this issue that has been popping up, especially over the past couple months, sort of in the apologetic world, which is discussing the claims of the Hebrew Israelites. Today we're going to discuss their history in a new way that I don't think has ever been done before. Titus chapter 3 verses 8 and 9. This is a faithful saying, and these things thou will affirm constantly, so it's supposed to do this, frequently and competently, that they which have believed in God, this is a way to say those who have believed in the gospel, might be careful to maintain good works. That means it's something we're thinking about and doing constantly. So the belief comes first, notice, but then There's an attention in our life to good works. We don't do away with good works. We believe, but then the belief produces good works. Next verse. These things are good and profitable unto men. And even in that little verse, there's a refutation, I think, of some of Hebrew-Israelite theology, because the implication throughout the book of Titus, and in this verse, 8 especially, is they're good and profitable for all kinds of men. All men. You see that? Now, What's really best and profitable for men? To know the truth. To know Christ. To be free from sin. To embrace the gospel. And here's why I wanted to read this. Listen to verse 9, everyone. But avoid... That means like if something's in the road and you... Real quick, right? But avoid foolish questions. and genealogies and contentions and strivings about the law for they are unprofitable and vain." So one thing you go for, which is the gospel, the other thing you avoid. Foolish questions. Honestly, I think it's a foolish question how you pronounce a certain paleo-Hebrew word based upon a speculation of how you've reconstructed an alphabet that you'd have no access to the vocalizations to. That's a foolish question. And genealogies, Hebrew-Israelite theology is all caught up in genealogies. In fact, they preach the gospel of the 12 tribes chart. Now listen, I know some Hebrew-Israelites are like, vocab's already tripping. Doesn't he know we're not all the same? Yes, I do. But I do know that if you call yourself a Hebrew-Israelite, generally speaking, the key thing that drives you together is this idea of the 12 tribes. And there's a primacy put in your theology. If you have the gospel first, praise God. But a lot of y'all got the gospel way back here, or the gospel is so misdefined it's no longer the gospel. And contentions, another translation says dissensions. This whole thing brings dissension. It says, you can't even make it into the kingdom except as a servant. Or it says, you can make it into the kingdom, but only if you're underneath me because of my ethnic heritage. And strivings about the law, or sometimes we'll say quarrels about the law. It's like the old school Judaizers sit around and talk all day about what you can and cannot do on the Sabbath, this type of thing. You got some similar debates, man, going on, like how to wear your fringes and this and that. It gets real tedious and you lose sight of Christ. And that's why Paul says, for they are unprofitable and vain. So listen, even if you don't agree with what I'm about to do and say today, it's because of passages like this why this is passionate to us. Because we see that, and we see something that's flipping the order of priorities for God's people. So with that, I'm gonna bring up my man... Kaddash. Kaddash is calling from a secret, undisclosed location, and he is a former Hebrew-Israelite insider, who is gonna help just do a walkthrough of the timeline, but especially in the Hebrew-Israelite history of the, what I'm gonna call, the fractured 90s. Welcome to The Dividing Line, Kaddash. What up, man? Greetings, greetings. Thanks for joining us. So yo, man, you want to comment real quick on anything I've said already, and maybe give a brief induction of yourself before we jump into this thing? Sure, I mean, no comment. I just concur with everything that you put forth. And my involvement with the Hebrew-Israelite organization was throughout the 90s, very much in its heyday where it emerged out of the you know, sort of the, uh, you know, kind of out of the dark and primarily in Harlem, New York, and started going public with, uh, the street camps, Times Square, 34th street, and a lot of that, uh, stuff where it really came out into the limelight really, um, before the advent of the internet and, um, you know, began to encounter, um, you know, people out there on, on the streets and, uh, just, just started to make their waves pretty much. Um, that was the era that I got involved. Now, a lot of times Hebrew Israelites don't really seem to have an awareness. Now I'm not saying everybody, but a lot of dudes, especially the newer dudes of their history, and they kind of act like this has always been there. Now we're not really focusing on the old, old school stuff today, but we don't want to totally neglect it. So briefly say something about what you know about a man named Abba Bivens and his importance in this. Yeah. Um, well, he goes back, he goes back to the origins of what became UPK For everybody that's universal practical knowledge and a lot of times people just say the UPK because the first two Parts of the acronym or sometimes change either is or I see so when you hear UPK or UPK er It's someone affiliated with that stream of the movement. It's very Harlem not as much Chicago. There's sort of a different stream there We're really kind of focusing as of now on the New York side. Is that correct? That's right. A completely different route out there in Chicago. Yeah. Maybe in some ways, some healthier tendencies. I'm not saying it's all good, but from what I can ascertain, some healthier tendencies perhaps? I think so. Definitely. I've spent time with those guys out there as well upon my leaving the school. But yeah, as far as Abba Bivens, he was the teacher of, I believe it was the Israelite school of the Torah at that time. and uh... he would have been jacquard's uh... teacher who's the other one who's the aqua jack jacquard is aria's father the man that uh... is credited for the twelve tribes all right chart and sign of the last one quid dash which is that you know that alternative hebrew exactly okay now now what's the time frame in general we go back to have a bit ends in general or in the late sixties Oh, yeah, they go back about that far. Yeah, certainly. That's before I was born, but yeah, for certain. And there's a bunch of... Yeah, bunch of stuff that happens you want to jump right into sort of the early 90s now I mean, that's that there's a lot of stuff happening before then but basically things kind of grew then they kind of split but I mean when do you jump on and What was the stuff that happened right before you jumped on that you were aware of that was important when you talk about Hebrew? Israelite history Yeah, I officially joined the school in about 95, so the second half of the 90s. Well, to go back before that, you had the one solid school, which was ISUPK, Israelite School of Universal Practical Knowledge. My experiences with them were just when I would be strolling through Manhattan, midtown, I would come across the camps, had no idea who they were. I thought they were something related to ex-Klan at first, standing out there with the big Staffs and decked out and stuff. For those who don't know, X-Klan is a mid-90s kind of what you might call Afrocentric hip-hop group. But all right, I can see you say that, all right. Yeah, yeah. A few years later, I ran into a brother who I used to do music with and hadn't connected in a couple of years. And next thing I'm seeing him, you know, with a big star David on, massive sideburns, he's got a completely different demeanor. And, uh, so we had a conversation about, you know, all of a sudden he looked like the Jewish shack or what? Yeah. Yeah. I'm at shafts. That's what my pronunciation was Jewish shaft. Right, right, right. So what's he say? What's he say when you talk to this man? Well, it was actually in the hip hop nightclub and, uh, I bumped into him. We had just finished performing and, um, I said, wow, what are you into? Cause it, cause I was always a seeker. I used to like, you know, Walking through through New York City and checking out what I used to call the different sidewalk religions, right? The Muslims of fathers and it is all these different groups Rastafarians Whatever you have and so I was curious what he was into and I had asked him What are you a Rasta now? Because I saw the big shoe I gave it, you know and You know, he was like hell no, you know, how is the last he's a fraud? He's not a real Jew and you know from right there. We started going into the scriptures. He started showing me Deuteronomy 28, right? And I had, you know, kind of from the beginning, man, hook, line, and sinker. I had just bought right in. What appealed to you about, like, his style of exegesis and the way he moved through, you know, what grabbed you? If you could take yourself back, what was it? Yeah, just the boldness and confidence. and what he believed. I had never seen anybody represent the Bible with that type of, you know, I was used to churches, et cetera, and that sort of thing. You know, I had never seen anyone appear to have a command of the scriptures like that. He was citing a lot of verses that, of course, you wouldn't talk about in church. A lot of things out of the Old Testament. And looking at things in a, you know, what seemed to be a deeper insight into the Bible, and I was intrigued. You know, I was absolutely intrigued by it and wanted to know more and kept kind of coming around and learning and learning. It took me about two years to finally visit the school in my area. And originally I had, had went to the school. We, you know, we, me and a few brothers, a handful of brothers had looked at some of their claims and found it, you know, what about this issue right here? What about the Gentiles? Are they, are they just reading right over this? So it occurred up. Can you give it? I know what you're talking about, but can you give an example? So you here's what happened You're kind of getting familiar with some of the claims made by Hebrew Israelite Proponents and you're seeing things in the scripture as you study them that you feel are incongruent with the main thesis now What are some examples of some things you felt like were bumps that you wanted to bring up or talk about? In the Old Testament the laws of the stranger. Explain. Explain a little bit if you could Okay You have, let me have my e-sword here. Well, I mean, you don't gotta, you know, quote, I'm just trying to give people an idea of things that don't match up, you know. Right, so we're looking at, I was looking at verses, passages like Isaiah 56, let not the son of the stranger say the Lord has utterly separated me from his people. They said the Lord said I would give them a name in my house better than that of sons and daughters passages like The option out of bore and Edomite, you know, right You see that there's a new a new name. It's like Hey, it has a Hebrews are like doing he's like follow the commandments follow the law and then it goes to the commandment that says do not Abhor an Edomite and then it shows the Hebrews are like looking like, huh? Yeah Now that what I've heard is dudes basically say that's been abrogated in some way for everyone to understand They said that back then that was that was the retort that they had given me Our first trip to the school was to try that we believed a lot of what they were saying But we also had some some issues with it right lot passages in the New Testament about the Gentiles and so our first trip there was to kind of Discuss that right? Okay. How'd that go? How'd that go? It didn't I Think we were just sort of impressed with their presentation. Okay, and Something clicked in my mind and I said to myself The verses the passages on Gentiles in the scriptures are so prevalent and littered everywhere throughout the New Testament they have to be seeing They have to be getting around this somewhere. Something clicked in my head where I said, I guarantee you what they're going to say. I told a brother that I was going to the school. I said, I guarantee you what they're going to say is that these are not real Gentiles. These are Israelites in a Gentile state of mind. And sure enough, that's exactly what they said. But yet you joined, right? And we kind of stuck around. We didn't, you know, we kept coming up for a little while and hearing the other parts of the breakdowns and just being impressed with all these, you know, young men that were zealous for, you know. what we believe to be, you know, the Lord's truth, the Lord's commandments and stuff like that. Well, before we get into some of the craziness with maybe the splits and the personalities, maybe share up what you might call a positive or warm memory. You know what I'm saying? Because sometimes people look at this as all bad, but you see a lot of these groups, man, got a real brotherhood and kinship. And I remember you brought that up. I'd like you to hear a little bit, kind of share the inside of some of the good side of what it's like to be around this joint. Right, right. Well, one of the things it was, it was sort of like joining a gang. You had, you know, you were welcomed into a family, um, you know, and the activity was far beyond. It was nothing like going to church. Right. You know, brothers were purposeful. They were disciplined. They were, they were unit, uh, they were organized. Um, you know, you had, you know, like I said, you just, you got into this family of brotherhood that, um, you know, It was a very exciting thing. I said before, when you looked at the Book of Acts, and you saw the constant movement of the disciples, the bonds that they had, they were always about their business. It wasn't something that you did part-time, like going to church on Wednesday night, Bible studies on Sunday morning, and then you kind of went back to your life. Your life pretty much revolved around the school. Some of us were there every day. And you said it was like if you got a new pair of socks dudes knew about it Right, right But people gotta understand, you know, that's that's a certain level of community and you shared one other thing about francis schaefer With a new convert to christianity. Can you share that briefly because I want people to see some of the appeal Oh francis chan, my bad. I thought it was schaefer. Okay francis chan Yeah, well, it was a short clip where francis chan had had talked about a young gang member who had joined the church. And after a while, he stopped attending. And so a couple of brothers from the church decided to pay him a visit and see how he was doing. And they asked him what was wrong. And his response was that, he said, you know, when I was in the gang and I got jumped into the gang, I had a family. We were constantly together. It was ongoing 24 seven, you know, if I wasn't with them, they were with me and, you know, right. It was like a, like a pride, you know? Um, so he said, um, he said, I'm sorry. He said, I, uh, you know, I just, I just had it wrong in my mind. I didn't realize it was just, you know, Wednesdays and Sundays, like I had said, and Francis chance response to that was, was like, No, he said you didn't have it wrong. He said the church has got it wrong. The point he was trying to make is that we need to be that community. So before we switch over, man, I want people to stop for a second. You know, instead of just mocking people or however you want to get, and realize that there is a gap a lot of times in our evangelical communities and fellowships, and there's things missing a lot of times. And so you can see that there's a need there, and a group like the Hebrew Israelite, which we believe has a lot of false doctrine, has some other things, yeah, okay. Is that part of the package would often cause you to overlook some of the downside? I think so. I think so Even if something clicked in your head did I don't think those brothers are breaking that down, right? Right, right You know, there was you know, you valued the brotherhood there so much that yeah a lot of brothers, you know They wouldn't say that straight up in the environment there, but you might catch someone to be honest with you on the side Yeah, you know, but then nobody was gonna go against the grain for sure. I Well, what were some of the things that were being taught? And here's what I really want to start focusing on. What were some of the developments you saw firsthand? Everyone, this is, pay attention. So we're switching a little bit from personal to kind of more broad stuff going on. But what did you see some of the doctrinal developments and changes that were happening sort of right in front of your eyes? Yeah, I came in at an interesting time, right? Because it was right at the cusp of the division between Masha and Arya. Who was Masha? Masha was, he was one of the seven heads of the school. Aria had somehow dubbed him the reincarnate these brothers believed heavy into reincarnation, right? Now this is important everybody reincarnation in most camps I think geocc rejects it but reincarnation a lot of camps is very very important to them and Yes, kind of a logical corollary if you think about it is well, maybe we could figure out like who's who so my shot was a dude who got dubbed as King David. Now who was Arieh? Who was Arieh supposed to be? Arieh was, as they would call him, John the Revelator. Okay, all right. He was John the Revelator. Okay. The very apostle John. Masha'a also supposedly had several reincarnations. He was Moses, He was also King David, and he was the Apostle Peter. Dang. This is kind of like Sir Pintor. Yeah, this guy carried on. He wore a lot of big hats, you know? Yeah, check it out. If you've ever seen G.I. Joe, OK, in the 1986 series. They wanted a new leader because Cobra commander was like dropping the ball, right? And so dr mind bender and destro went behind Cobra commanders back and they they combed the tombs of all of history's greatest military leaders such as Genghis Khan and Vlad the impeller and Napoleon, etc, etc snag the DNA and then put it sort of into a genetic Genetic blender and made serpent or who's supposed to be like the ultimate Cobra Emperor, you know He's Julius Caesar and all these other dudes and uh, this sounds like when my shot got going on a little bit Interesting. I'm sorry. There's a couple of y'all get that reference. But okay, so that's who Masha supposed to be We know where you are supposed to be now what's going on with those dudes? Oh, well, it was a mistake that Aria made it I think he later came to regret because he ascribed my Shah more authority and power to himself, right? Because my shots King David and Moses. All right, okay There were there were certain verses in the Bible. They would use and the people will seek to their King and They also use one of the passes in Deuteronomy 28 about your king will go with you into captivity Yeah, you know, this is a little side note But I just noticed one of the problems with the interpretation of Deuteronomy 28 something I just saw You know our mutual friend point out on the Facebook group He was saying what King went with the folks during the transatlantic slave trade. That was that was a killer That's verse 27, right? That's important. That's an important verse. And the way you guys just, he just kept on asking the question and you realize there's not really an answer to this. That was good. That's because the emphasis is always, well, you know, we're the only people who fit each and every exact prophecy in there. They'll say that. They will say that. However, as we both know, there's only certain verses they'll necessarily grab out of Deuteronomy 28 that have anything in common with the transatlantic. So while they say that, well, well, you got to fit each and every detail to be the applicant for this prophecy. There's a lot that they glaze over as well. All right. So let's talk about, um, is the first major break with the Shah splitting off, would you say? Yeah, there was, as we talked about, there was the sons of thunder over in Brooklyn a little bit earlier on. Um, I wouldn't exactly call it a split. It was just camps that, that did their own thing, their own way. And UPK ended up disassociating. They did come up to Harlem quite a bit. And a few of those Brooklyn brothers joined and moved out to Harlem. The majority, a lot of them stayed out there. and kind of did things their own way. So everyone knows there used to really be a lot more centralized unity in this movement. Oh, for sure. And what's interesting is people think that a nation-building thing is happening, but actually the opposite is happening. There's fracturing, and we're talking about these 90s splits, but now it's even more. Yes, absolutely. And so that split is what, House of David? Is that correct? that was called house of david because michelle in david right david all right as they look so much uh... from what i understand is that you know the there was always there was frequency right after after that there was a there was frequent splits and uh... a lot of it had to do with personal personal differences, vendettas even, and stuff like that, but it would always come out, it would always present as it was something doctrinal. From what I understand is Masha and Aryar went their separate ways over money. And Aryar and those brothers from One West ended up paying visits to the other schools and tried to sort of get out in front of that and give their explanation. Of why that went down, you know, I tried to retract on the marshall was king david thing You know, he tried to downplay that and back that well, we're all reincarnated But none of us are sure exactly who we are. We were wrong about that, right? It was a little too late for some of the zealous true believers You know did anybody ever tell you who you were? Did anybody ever tell you no? No, you had to be somebody really significant, right? Um, you know sure. Yeah So with that then, now let's look at House of Daves for a little bit. There was a split within that with Tahar, I believe, right? Right. What goes down with that? That was the second split. So so everyone knows tahar is still active And I would say quite important and what's going on in this and from what I understand is really the first Man to get his camp to really utilize the power of youtube, which is now kind of standard practice among the groups But he was the one to really jump on that and he's over gms now great millstone and uh What's going on there with that split kadash? Tahar used to, Tahar goes way back. Right. He used to go out and street preach with Aria. You can see him on Times Square and stuff and a lot of times he's like Aria's reader even. Yes. Yeah. He was a lot younger at that time. He was coming up in the ranks. Yeah. Tahar for some reason made himself a lot of enemies. He was kind of brash and you know, he stood his ground on whatever he believed. Didn't compromise too much. He had a loyal following. And started to kind of leave his is just naturally people sort of flock to him if you loved him or hated him yeah, you know and as you see he is a You know somewhat of a charismatic figure. I like look on a personal level I've gotten to know some of these guys. I like to heart. He's always making jokes. He strikes me as funny He's got like nicknames for everybody He always will like relate something to a movie, you know, like what's It just strikes me is you know This dude, you know, okay, but the funny thing is he's over GMS, which is really the most tripped out crew in my opinion But yet there's this dude that I kind of feel like a warm affection for like check out this guy All right, I could listen to him. You know, I don't mean like it's accurate I'm just saying on a personal level kind of enjoying him. You know I'm saying I He does, he was always a showman on the streets and he was one of the more enjoyable teachers out there to watch. Yeah, I mean I can say I mean if you know, I'd be I mean I could see going over to Horace house, you know kicking I don't know if you'd have me but I'm you know, you know Okay, so what's up with Tahar in Cornelius because my understanding is that's a key? Piece to all this going down Tahar Cornelius explained brother. So I was the first brother They always had a breakdown of x10 and x15 to do with Cornelius because that was obviously a Sort of a monkey wrench in the, um, the Gentiles can't be saved. Because it appears Cornelius is not by any stretch of the imagination and Israelite. I mean, just read the text and you can see how Peter speaks to him. You can see the way he's described. So all of a sudden this dude is, it looks like he's in the mix. Right. So how do they explain it back then? They, the explanation kind of jumped around a little bit one of the uh... some brothers to go back in the school will will know what i'm talking about when i say the uh... the trick bag you know there was a trick bag a trick bag the most i had a white man in the trick bag some brothers admit that cornelius tahar was one who would admit that Cornelius genuinely received salvation. I remember him saying in one interview, he said, because when we came with the gospel, Cornelius was the only one who bowed down. Our brothers frequently would teach that Cornelius was going to receive some type of mercy in the kingdom, alms deeds toward the people of Israel, et cetera, and stuff like that. But no one ever came up with a satisfactory explanation of, well, if Cornelius could be saved, you know, why not, doesn't any other Gentile need to just do the same thing? About a God-fearing man and receive the grace of God? Quick question. Do you know the answer to this? Did anybody ever say, well, dude is probably Italian, so he's still an Israelite? Did anyone ever go that route? You don't sense that so I was the first one to say that also so the explanation the modern explanation is Via his so I guess they probably assuming he's some kind of southern Italian such as Sicilian or Napolitano and then probably thinking through that he's able to have Israelite lineage and so he legitimately is that so that's the current explanation that's pretty much as far as it goes. There's nothing in the text that says that. All the conversation that happens between Peter and Cornelius... This is Acts chapter 10, everybody. Acts chapter 10 primarily. But then there's a follow-up in Acts 15. Go ahead. Precisely. The follow-up in Acts 15 emphasizes it even more. Right, yeah. Just read it. Okay, so Tahar comes out with this to kind of get around a problem and, um, what happens? What's the reaction? Okay, he already had some rivalries going on before that. Yeah. Um, there was, there was two things that Tahar was teaching. He started saying that Cornelius was indeed an Israelite. And here's the next one, everybody get ready for this next one. That, uh, in the kingdom or when Israel, um, receives their power, it's all right to rape women. All right, we'll be raping women ravage the women and all that sort of thing, you know put a pause on that for a second So that's why sometimes people use this. They call it the rape doctrine now GMS wants to make sure you know, they're not talking about doing it now They are talking about the kingdom just so everybody knows right. Well, really we want to call it like it is However, I'll tell you ma'am The Southside GMS crew that I ran into, which homeboy has resurfaced currently on YouTube. Shout out to my fellow Southsider. He would be in Schiller Park, place I used to play ball at, and watch augers are going around saying, what OJ did to Nicole Brown Simpson is what's gonna happen to all Edomite women in the kingdom. That was righteous to do. That's right. So it's kind of like a precursor to the kingdom, I guess. At least that's what... Now, I don't know if Tahar would say that, but his crew was saying that, and so GMS kind of has that. And so Tahar came out with both things at the same time. What was the result? Well, okay. So, at that time, some funny things were beginning to happen in the school. All right. Marshall was moving on in age. You had, uh... Hold on. Can I ask you a question? Yes. I heard, now you may not have to comment, that some people suspect he may have been going senile. Yeah. Yeah, there was some evidence of that. Okay. It was shortly before his death. Okay. Go ahead and just... Some people had whispered that. Okay. Go ahead. I'm listening. Sure. There was two upcoming leaders in the House of David school, which were Nathanael Rahab Nathaniel a good now is who everybody knows as Nathaniel who spearheaded the Israel United in Christ movement That's the camp whenever we talk about him. We refer to them as professional polished very organized Rational in in a certain manner of speaking yet still kind of Hardcore and doctrine. I mean I'm trying to they wear the purple and gold So everybody can know you know They very much have all kind of been somewhat that that that is very much Nathaniel and Nathaniel is persona, right? Okay, and He's kind of shaped, you know his group after himself or they modeled themselves after him, right? So that that was always his style and his approach Rahab was a little more of a belligerent guy You know more like some of the guys you would see in some of those more, you know Rough-around-the-edges camps on YouTube today, right? so These guys were up and coming in the ranks and they kind of became Marshaw's spokesperson. Whenever there was, you know, whenever they, as Marshaw aged, he would send these guys out to follow up with the schools going and, you know, visit the different schools around and, and spurred them on and that sort of thing. You know, um, they began to develop a little bit of a different vision. Right. And my opinion is, uh, They wanted to take it in some new directions. Yeah, and sort of a you know a season a power seat So I've heard this talked about is this what you can talk about kind of sometimes referred to as the coup Yeah, yeah, I would say so. Okay. So what happens there's a council, right? Well one thing the council didn't happen yet with a deal they overturned my Shah one of my Shah's loyal man was, uh, was Tahar. And there's where you can see his sort of what I would call maybe tendency towards personal affection of warmth comes in very loyal. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. He, he never stopped being loyal to both Marshawn and Ariyar, no matter what differences he had with them. Right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. He still speaks to both of them very highly and with great regard, reverence. Um, but I think, you know, from where I was standing, yeah, Tahar was somebody who, Sort of needed to be moved out of the way, right? He had a lot of weight. He had a lot of influence in the school Yeah, he was dear to Marsha. Mm-hmm, and I don't think that they were going to to Take it where they wanted with which are still around so they had to find a pretense to bounce him out right and the pretense they used was the cornelius issue which is ironic because what is almost every group teach now belts that now yet it was all do reserve a g o c c i think right i think they just got a message about yet you do cc is you know probably come the furthest out of the u p care groups again any kind of orthodoxy you know yeah yeah uh... So as I was saying, I think Tahar saw the difficulty with the Cornelius breakdown. the trick bag thing, you know. We had a multi-mated, there was always an explanation of why the Bible seemed to be saying one thing but really said another. It was almost, whatever the Bible really seemed to be saying was the opposite. If the New Testament appeared to be saying you don't have to keep the law of Moses anymore, it was a special reason that you had to get to understand why it was saying you had to keep the law of Moses. If it appeared that it was saying Gentiles could be saved, no, you had to delve into it deeper and find out. So almost everything that was manifest and obvious in the scriptures You had to go for this long walk around. And they tell you exactly why what you were reading was not what it seemed to be saying. And it was the exact opposite. Tahar, I think, was one of the first brothers that saw ahead that there was a difficulty in buttoning down the Gentile issue so long as Cornelius was a genuine non-Jew, a genuine Gentile. Yeah, right. There was also several people in Tahar's camp going way back who didn't look like typical quote unquote Israelites. Right. So, I mean, even in the modern era, there's the dude who led the Southside GMS Columbus crew that's kind of notorious because he looks like an Irish dude. Now, he'll call himself light-skinned. And that's why sometimes dudes are like... That's really light-skinned. Yeah, light-skinned with red hair. And they'll say, yo, man, don't call us the black Hebrew Israelites. Look at that dude over there. You know, that type of thing. But, uh, so you're saying there are some dudes that seem like, well, You don't seem to fit the profile, but hey, all right, right if they could vibe with the teaching was right Tahar is as you see is, you know, he he claims to be able to read spirits. Yeah, no, so You know, he exercises that if somebody's you know, if somebody strikes him as Israel and Then, boom, they're Israel. You know, Leonardo DiCaprio in Tahar's book is an Israelite. Oh, he's Italian, you know. Yeah, he likes his style, you know. Leonardo DiCaprio's a cool dude. So, you know, we'll mark him down if we ever get a chance. We might be Jake He might be Jake. Let me let me stop really so Jake is short for Jacob and a lot of times It's the way that an Israelite cat referred to somebody who's sort of not awoke to the truth yet But is of the proper lineage is the way I would describe it. So they might say he might be Jake so because prior to Israel Who is Jacob? Well, let's abbreviate let's abbreviate break it down speak a little flavor Jake. So there you go So everybody can understand sometimes people talk about their Jake job. That's their job kind of outside. They got to go do you know? Right. So learning the lingo now, there was always a teaching there, you know, they would quote certain scriptures Israel is as a speckled bird It was always a teaching that there were Israelites out there who didn't look like Israel, right? Okay Yeah, but nobody ever you know What do you do with that? Then you gotta preach this thing to anybody and whoever responds to it, you know, you gotta say they're an Israelite. Now you told me something, at least I heard it from somewhere, where sometimes where in a modern era where Tahar will kind of be not feeling, let's say, Brother Nathan, he'll say, you're kind of looking like a Watusi right now. You're starting to look like a Watusi to me, right? Now I understand what that means, but can you explain that to somebody who's like, I don't really understand what you guys are saying right now. What's the significance of that? Well, if I had a nickel for every time somebody left the school, or had a fallout in the school, and they were no longer dubbed an Israelite. Yeah, yeah. Same thing happened to me when I left the school. Oh, what'd they call you? Oh, you're an Edomite, or something like that. Yeah, you're a Gentile. Do they sometimes use the phraseology tear? Yeah. So is a tear somebody who looks like an Israelite, but is actually of the wrong ethnic lineage? Is that kind of the technical definition, or what? Yeah, that could be. That could be, yeah, that's one of the possibilities there. So yeah, like I said, they always kind of held that teaching that anybody might be an Israelite for all we know, but only Israel is going to respond to this truth. Right. So Haar was the first person to actually take them to task on that and say, well, you know, well, let's, let's, you know, let's make it a, cause to them that was just a theory. No one ever actually brought, A non-Israelite looking person into the school to be the first one. It's interesting because sort of the most radical in the way they street teach, most people would say is GMS, but yet they're also the most open to say, yo, this dude may not look like, but he can be down with the crew. Even really more than GOCC because GOCC still has these rules and regulations for so-called Gentiles where You got to be under the authority and in a kind of clear way You got to be kind of like commissioned your teaching needs to be monitored that type of thing It seems like GMS is a little bit more of an openness in that way Which is again highly ironic considering their whole approach and vibe, but you know, it is what it is right, right so my Shah dies and When does he die? Not before Taha got bounced out of the school. Okay. That, that was something that I was in the midst of. I was right in the eye of the storm and then, you know, that council where, um, you know, they were kind of pre because I did have, you know, something to do with, uh, you know, some brothers out there in the Bridgeport, Connecticut area that Taha presided over, you know, became close with one brother in particular. And, um, so, every every, every school leader or camp leader was kind of jealous over there, man, you know, they kind of want to control and you know, keep them to themselves. They didn't really like people. You know, solid sort of, you know, cross communication between other camps. You know, yeah. Was I kind of broke that, you know, I became good friends with one particular brother. and uh... because it is some of the conversations that ensued they wanted my input at the council uh... it was really very manipulative i didn't really understand what i was getting into the middle of this young man at that time right you know but it was to to to frame and uh... you know And get evidence against Taha to boot him out of the school, right? Okay It's true. All right, so I mean Let's let's jump a little bit to the ICU I see you PK stuff, you know, Taza dhakiya and all that stuff Like there's kind of let me bring something back, you know, and you mentioned it before Shortly at night now to ours out of the school they disassociate from him my Shah continued to have Some some concourse with him. Sometimes they would keep certain holy days together and stuff like that Okay, and I think once those guys once those younger men sold it to her and my shot still had a bond That's when they had to attack my shot. Oh Okay, right Once you know, we got to get my shot of the way and it's time for us to usurp, you know, the reins here And then they came out with things that were probably true, uh, maybe somewhat exaggerated, but things that had been whispered since way back that, you know, some of those, those old elders like Marsha and then Maria that they had been dealing with, uh, Kabbalah with certain types of Satanism dealing with, um, there was a book they didn't share with other brothers that, you know, they probably long since discarded it by the time I came around. But there was a book, The Seals of Solomon, where it was teaching you even in contentions on how to bind and control demons and get them to do your bidding. Okay, so I remember you mentioned this. So basically how to control demons. That was kind of an undercurrent. And they brought this out against Meshach saying, hey, this is shady business type of thing. Exactly, exactly. It was a convenient time to bring those things forward. Yeah, I got you, I got you. So that's what they used for him. Yep, they severed from Masha. The school I was part of followed suit with Nathanael and Rahab. That became 12 tribes, 12 tribes of Israel. Okay. And that didn't last very long. It was shortly after that that I left the school. Right. Because once they became 12 tribes, all of a sudden the teaching surfaced that Cornelius really is an Israelite. Yeah, so... And I'm like, Wait a minute. Then these guys needs these guys. Oh, Tahar and his camp and apology. Right. Right. You know, when Tahar hears this show, I feel like he's going to be like, listen to these, listen to even these fools be vindicating me. You know, something like that. Yeah. Right. But you know, like I said, it is what it is. Not that I endorse the things Tahar teaches on, on any level, you know? Um, but, but that's just the way it went down. That's the way it went down All right, so I want to look at the UPK stuff though because we kind of left that for a minute But what's going on there a lot of changes there to around this 94 95 96 type thing. What's going on there? Yeah UPK continued to be you know, they both they both continued to be rivals House of David and UPK. Yeah, okay As the countdown to the What becomes the you know, and I guess the brother will talk about that later on the year 2000 prophecy We're gonna talk about that at the very end of the show So we're kind of really hitting the 90s kind of hard and we're gonna end this show today With the discussion briefly about the failed prophecy of the year 2000. So we're moving through the 90s gonna jump into that So what's up with UPK and all that? Yeah, I didn't that was one group that you know since since we split ways I didn't have any contact with we just would hear things and You know, they had some web pages up at the time. They still had some programs going on in the New York area and some other cities and stuff like that, some television programs. But we didn't really have much to do with them. They really despised us, you know. But as as the countdown to Y2K comes, I think they started to shift some positioning. Well, once once it passes, there was a whole regrouping and, you know, you know, adjusting themselves, you know, trying to get some new footing when their foremost prophecy ends up falling flat on its face. Right. Jehovah's Witnesses all over again. Yeah, which was funny because that was one thing they would always cite the passage in Deuteronomy, you know, both us and them. We saw the House of David started to Started to that that prophecy started to take you know a backseat you talk about Deuteronomy 18 The test of a prophet test of a true prophet Well, yeah, yeah. Well, that's what I was saying before is that they would always mock the Jehovah's Witnesses and other, you know, fringe Christian groups who had made these false prophecies, false predictions of the end of the world, and they would cite Deuteronomy 18. You know, if that thing comes not to pass, you already know right there not to listen to anything else they say. But they didn't measure themselves, you know, they didn't meet the same measure to themselves. When if prophecy you know, bottomed out. When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is a thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him. Yeah, so, with UPK, what are some of the changes going on there? I see... Your changes, your... Yeah, we got Tazedakia, I see, there, and we got Yeshia getting kicked out. Right, right. desire is kicked out uh... let me just see here and then it is a transformed into i c g g c what's their importance does not everybody knows them but for a long time they were the biggest maybe they still are and they've got aria which to me is a boon i mean what i'm saying is that aria is kinda like the brainchild of a lot of this and he's with their this group explain a little bit about that Well, Ariar is like the golden goose, you know? So much of the doctrine was put out there and developed by him. The old belief was that he was actually encountered, he actually encountered an angelic being who revealed the Hebrew-Israelite doctrine to him. And none of this stuff, you know, was always presented. Is that the dude that taught him the language? That said, hey, this is the tongue our forefathers spoke? Is this this story? That I'm not certain about that. Okay, I'm not certain about maybe we'll do that on next week's show By the way, everybody plan as of now is to do a part two of this But it's actually gonna be like a prequel Gonna kind of go back into even some more of the old-school stuff and discuss its modern-day relevance This is really focusing a little bit on the 90s and early 2000s. So what's up with Israelite Church of God Jesus Christ? I Think all those changes happened after the prophecy failed. Okay, I Tazodakia, Jemaine Grant, takes a trip. They take a trip out to Israel, the Mount of Olives or something like that. He supposedly receives his revelation. Reminds me of the same kind of Aria stories all over again, that divine encounter, you know? What is the revelation? The Comforter, the Holy Spirit incarnate in the flesh. Say that again? that he is the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, incarnate in the flesh. Just want to make sure everyone understands that, which is a certain advantage to that, because if you've got to be King David, you know, there's kind of like a heavy expectation, you know, you've got to have a certain personality, and if you're the Holy Spirit, What I mean, it trumps King David. Yeah. I mean, it's like it's like, hey, I got the king. Oh, I got the ace, you know, type of thing. So it does trouble him. And also, you can kind of shape the Holy Spirit. I mean, you know, we're speaking crassly, but kind of how you want. So it's like, OK. And this is the same man who, and I made a mistake in a previous interview, which I've apologized several times for, this is the man called Comfey who made the 12-inch action figure doll of himself, which the doll manufacturer did not make dark enough, and so the doll manufacturer got sued because it was too light. This is the man who did that. So there is a cult of personality, I think, around Comfey. I mean, if he's the Holy Spirit, it kind of makes sense, right? Right now tell me this though, but they always were big on marketing whatever, you know, you know overpriced Books and artwork and garments and things like that. They were always big on marketing and drawing, you know I mean some of these guys were You know riding bicycles and stuff like that while the elders, you know, we're riding expensive cars and things You know, they basically was a business pyramid in a lot of ways. They drew a the funds from their congregation. And back then, like I explained to you in another conversation, the doors would be barred at the end of the night come the time when it was supposed to pay your tithes. And men had to produce their their check stubs so they could know that you were giving your 10%. Dang, I didn't know that. It's funny because I remember we were talking the other day and your boy was like, hey, don't you kind of want to pin this one dude down and ask him like, hey, do you believe this or is this a hustle? And the dude was like, man, he was given a hypothetical answer from one of these older leaders and be like, man, it's New York City, of course it's a hustle. You don't talk about By the way, that was hypothetical in Harlem 125th Street, right? Just so understand everyone understands. We're not saying that was an actual dialogue We're doing we were reconstructing a hypothetical dialogue. So everyone understands that conversation did not actually happen People be misinterpreting so much man. I gotta like stop and qualify, but okay, so How do you think it was that Aria was willing to say that Jermaine Grant? The manifestation incarnation Holy Spirit. I have not figured that one out yet Yeah, I can only give my opinion But I think is our y'all also is aging because he's an older man, you know, and he like just dropped a lot of this stuff It's just shocking that he would because from what I heard Jermaine was a cameraman prior to this Right. Yeah, you can see him in some old videos even though the Louis Thoreau videos, right, you know, I Interesting, because Ariad changed his position on so many things. As you know, he went from denying the virgin birth, even denying the opening chapters of the Book of Luke. Oh yeah, I remember I heard about the council, where at the end, Ariad says, well, the Book of Luke is a lie. That's a lie. Because it was, I guess, by a Gentile? Was that the rationale with that? Well, uh, I don't know. That's a good question. I just can't argue that was it was inserted in there by the white man or something like that. You know, I knew brothers who actually were there and heard him say that. He was kind of outgunned with what the scriptures say there in the book of Luke. It's funny because by him saying that, he tacitly admits the book of Luke really is saying that it's born of a virgin. And I don't have any defense for that. I can't talk my way out of it, so I'm just going to dub it a lie. Right. There you go. There you go. Yeah. Which, of course, today he's backpedaled on that and now asserts and affirms the virgin birth. They now affirm the deity of Christ, which they never did. Okay, now that tripped me out, too, because generally speaking, we say the Israelite groups denigrate Christ into some lesser status. But yeah, Israelite church God Jesus Christ who has holy spirit God sent comforter in the mix at the helm, you know, you can see some pictures of him online where he's rocking all yellow suit man This dude put together a messed up meme. I'm just gonna tell you about it real quick It had a picture of the Michael Jackson jacket like the old school, you know kind of thriller era jacket and then it had a plus sign and it had a batch of bananas and it had the equal sign of Jermaine Grant standing there in his yellow banana looking kind of suit with the studs and type of thing, you know, I'm sorry, man The internet is a deep dark place And when you start getting to the world of Hebrew Israelite memes and counter memes, you're a whole nother level But okay, go ahead. So so really no good explanation. It seems like with area what's going on with him? And he's still alive today. I would love to hear an interview with this man You know? Sure, sure. Another thing is, what does that do to the claim that this doctrine was handed to you by angels? Right. If you flipping and flopping and this and that, yeah. Right, right. Which was the thing that started to shake my faith in the movement when I was part of it. Because when I entered, these brothers presented it so bold, so confident about their handle on the scriptures. And when I actually got to be part of it, I noticed there was this never-ending shuffle, you know, about interpretations and breakdowns. As we know, to be true, the Bible only, you can proof text and cherry pick and get that Bible to say anything you want it to. If you just grab, you know, like that thing here a little and there a little, you can make that Bible say anything you'd like to hear. But if you arrange it in a way that everything the Bible has to say on a particular topic you have to add into your, you have to take account for and give account for before you arrive at the conclusion, at the interpretation. That's a different type of... That's exegesis. Right. You know? That's a different type of... Eisegesis is where you put something into the text that's not there. Exegesis is where you draw out of the text what actually is there. Hey, yo, our homie Abu's waking up on Twitter. Let me say a couple things that he said, and then you can comment on that. Greetings. Yeah, what up? I think I heard him say all praises all praises With the transition to the ICG JC comes an embrace of the virgin birth Even the perpetual virginity of Mary Christ's divinity also a literal hell overturning the old breakdown of Revelation 9 That's those are big changes. And this is why um, I hear sometimes people will say uh, I see gjc is kind of like like the orthodox if you wanted to make some kind of rough comparison within christiandom so-called or perhaps the roman catholic, uh Version or something out of the camps because you kind of have a popish figure there with um comfy by the way Abu also notes comfy is a slur used by the rivals. He calls himself tazidakia and the comforter, just so everybody knows. And I think Chief High Priest or something like that, too? So that means now we're embracing the virgin conception, we're embracing Christ as truly divine, embracing an actual eternal conscious torment idea in hell, and overturning the way Revelation 9 used to be broken down. Those are big changes. Which, I mean, actually, good changes, it seems like. You know what I'm saying? Well, yeah, they did revise a lot of things and started to step in the direction of, you know, on some issues, Orthodox Christianity. Right. And they always kind of had a leaning toward that. They were the most...so they always had, like, these Catholic and Eastern Byzantine influences in UPK. I remember early, early back on when they were selling the icons, you know, the black icons of the, you know, the brothers would paint about the saints and Christ and stuff like that. They were almost giving this, you know, same kind of, you know, attributing a certain quality to these pictures that, you know, sort of like the windows of heaven teaching from the, you know, Eastern Orthodox. Yeah, sort of almost bordering on veneration type thing. Sure, sure. See, that's interesting, man. The fact that they had a priesthood You know, yeah, they're the ones with the most, you know, that made the most issue out of the priesthood. Other groups kind of tended I always look at it almost like upk was a sort of the Catholic Church of the Israelites. And then you had this Protestant break off almost where they, they ended up discarding a lot of traditions that had, you know, came to came to be part of their practice and belief. Now, real quick, it is sort of a side note, and I'm gonna let you probably say one more thing after this, and we're probably gonna jump into that 2,000 prophecy, but what's the significance, if someone's not tracking, of this virgin conception idea in the first place? Why is that even an issue for Israelite groups, the virgin conception? Why is it important whether Christ was virgin-born or not to them? Well, I mean, that's a good question. Well, I have a theory. I thought you had a ready-heady... I got a theory if you want to hear mine first. Well, I'll share mine, too, is that some of it, a lot of it, a lot of their interpretations is simply being at odds. simply being at odds with what the mainstream Christian teachings are. So you think it's just a product of contrarianism? They just like to be contrarians? Very much. Those guys are a bunch of contrarians, man. Yeah, yeah, you ever heard the old joke? Whatever you see in the Bible that seems to say, um... Oh, I was just looking at something, you know, Brother Faithful had still made the distinction that the ICGJC still teaches that Christ is a created being. So they did retain some of their old doctrine. Right. But they do ascribe divinity, deity, divine status. You ever hear the old joke, I tried to give this book to a contrarian friend of mine called Letters to a Young Contrarian and he wouldn't take it. I always thought it was funny. Heard it from Christopher Hitchens, believe it or not. And just one of the brothers, a brother named Loyal, who I used to fellowship with on a regular, he left with Le Havre and that crew back then was Central Command. And he always thought it was significant that the first miracle that we encounter in the New Testament is the virgin birth. And he always felt like it was significant that they denied that. Right. Well, isn't it because if you're making a big deal out of lineage and being an ethnic Israelite, and the way you track it on, according to most groups, is your pop side, because it goes like this. The Gospel of the Twelve Tribes chart is almost preached like this on the street. You stop, you talk, and they say, what's your nationality? Well, I'm such and such. On your mom's or your dad's side, you see? And it's got to be on your pop side. So believe it or not, everybody, most so-called Hebrew Israelite groups deny that bob marley could be saved in a sense because his pop was in their dictionary an edomite and so bob marley for example chanting down babylon and everything else is actually an edomite because on the pop side he got the wrong thing going on which is kind of trippy unless you come on unless you come across some brothers who really dig bob marley yeah and they're like well maybe you know they start singing redemption song So with that, um, so there's just so much going on. So what's he say here? Opposition to the virgin birth seems rooted in their Tanakh only anti-christian origins and emphasis on paternal lineage. So we haven't really discussed the Tanakh only Israelite section that exists. Zion Lex is one of the most well-known proponents, probably at least, you know, he's a well-known proponent of the Tanakh-only side, and we haven't got much into that. Most of these folks in some way embrace New Testament and Christ and all that as Messiah, but there is also the Tanakh-only as well. Okay, so it's interesting that going further back to Abba Bibbon's day. Mm-hmm. They were a Tanakh and Torah only as well. Yeah. Yaiqub, I believe, from the stories I heard, was the first one to introduce Christ in the New Testament. Okay, okay. Yeah. All right, so... I mean, this goes back, you had the black Jew, I mean, this is going further back, like you said, you know, we're gonna have an addition on that as well. Yeah, talk about like the commandment keepers, for example. Yes, the Moorish temple of you know, Moorish Jewish temple of Harlem the black Jews of Harlem Yeah, and that sort of you know, some of them which was just you know, identical to rabbinical judaism Yeah, I got some old books on that. Here's his one. This is old school book Howard Brotz the black Jews of Harlem Now some of the languages here is a little outdated meaning sometimes he speaks in certain ways about ethnicity that I would prefer he not but the books a product of his time, but As far as being an up-close encounter of some of the stuff popping off at that time with the commandment keepers and whatnot, which we're not really discussing today. Great book on that. Let me see, I think I got one more. Let me just mention it real quick. Because there are, there's some history on some of this stuff. There's not a ton, you know. But there's some things, and so just bringing that out. Where did that other one go I had? I can't find it right now, but... Whatever we get to that. It's called heritage seekers. It's another one a similar type of track, but yo, man One more thing you want to say maybe tie this together because we kind of just went back we did a full circle we drop out of Bivens one more thing you want to say about the fractured 90s about all the stuff because Here's my understanding of the point of why I wanted to do this today Things are presented within the camps as if we've got our ducks in a row. I Everything's lined up. You know what I'm saying? There it is, button up tight. Ain't nobody handling the scriptures like us, type of thing. We're trying to peel back the curtain, show you there's a man back there. We're trying to take you to the hot dog factory, show you how the hot dogs are made. We're trying to shine some light on the reality of it. Now, now, this is not to say that there's no development and personal and political conflict within Christian church history. That's not the point of this. Meaning we recognize that as well. Just study church history, you see it. But the point is that these groups tend to act like that's not them, type of thing, and sort of as if they dropped out of nowhere with the stuff, and especially with everybody kind of being exposed to it on the internet when it's like their first time, and they're like, oh, okay, alright, alright. You gotta understand, man, this stuff has a lineage. And it's really messy. And my prediction is... As this thing grows, it's gonna get messier. Final words from you, my man, though. What you wanna say before we bring your boy on? Yeah, well that's exactly, that's what led to my exit, you know, of the school in the late 90s, is that, you know, the more you try this ongoing shuffle, they were hammering it out, it became evident to me that they were making it up as they went, pretty much. They were hammering it out, and you know, make a statement, retract it, go back to it, revise it, say the opposite of what they were saying. And when you do that, you try to have, you grab certain verses and you try to arrange them in a way that says what you'd like it to say or what you've already preconceived the Bible to be saying. And then you have all these problem verses that are popping out and glaring at you over here on this side. That's no way to approach biblical interpretation. Your duty to have any kind of integrity in biblical interpretation is to, hold on, you don't come to the sum before you've, you know, done the equation. Right, right. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, you don't have the answer already in hand. And this shows the importance... Exactly, well, I'd like the answer to come up to, you know, 777, so I'm going to tailor and omit certain things so that we arrive at the answer I've already decided to get, you know? And I think that started to provoke some second-guessing and, you know, some doubt in some of those guys. After we left the school, a whole bunch of brothers shook loose. And this is where it gets presuppositional, because when dealing with the Hebrew Israelite cats, and when you start flipping to the text, I'm gonna tell you, man, their presuppositions drive their exegesis, which makes it eisegesis. Sometimes I've heard people dub it narsegesis, which is kind of a, you know, a little bit whatever, whatever. But what you see is the presupposition is driving it. And that's why when clear language gets subverted and all of a sudden Gentile doesn't mean Gentile whenever it doesn't mean gentile, not because of really linguistic considerations. Now, they'll try to say that. They become more sophisticated. Like, you listen, you know what I'm saying, to Czariak or somebody like that, and it sounds like, oh, okay, but you kind of stop and say, what actually are you saying in all this, and where's the consistency in this? Then you see the problem is presuppositional, because the thesis is driving the interpretation. Now, let's just say, I'm just reading the text, I'm just reading what it says, but they're assuming a certain interpretation as they do that. And so people need to be made aware, and I think what I want to see Christians do and engage in a respectful manner, according to 1 Peter 3.15 and Colossians 4.5.6, is to hammer in on those presuppositions, to show our friends in this movement, every time their presuppositions are being exposed, because what they end up doing is crafting the Word of God more into their own image, instead of letting it shape them. Right, right, right, which was a big, you know, milestone that I crossed. Wait a minute, I had to humble myself and surrender to what the, if I wanted to understand the scriptures, I had to surrender to what it was really, what the text was even saying. It was the only way that it was going to work out, where there were no problem verses anymore. That's right. Another thing, I'll add this last thing. Last thing. Certain brothers were, a man would be applauded and lauded if he or a guy that could come up with a certain, you know, an insight into the scripture to support the things they wanted to say, if you dig what I'm saying. If he could get in there and mine for something that supported their presuppositions that they already had. Oh, you know, it was like a big round of applause. Oh man, that brother, you know, he went and dug there and dug in there and he found more. evidence to confirm that we're really right about what we're saying. Right. Yeah, yeah. That was interesting, too. Well, let me play some of this video here that our main man, Faithful to God, put together, Black Hebrew Israelites, False Year 2000 Prophecy. That's the way he's titled it. Like I said, I've been calling everybody Israelites, so-called, or Hebrew Israelites the whole show, but that's the title of it on YouTube. I'm going to start with it, and you're getting some old audio from the 90s of Hebrew-Israelite camps. In fact, Tahar is going to make a cameo in this in relation to 2000. After I play it, we're going to bring up Faithful to God, and close out the 90s with the false prophecy of 2000. Rich, my main man, do you got my volume up? Because I'm hitting that button. God is going to set his decree in these last days, and that is to totally annihilate America. America will be blown off the face of the earth by the year 2000. It's talking about Judgment Day. Jesus Christ is coming back on the white horse. And he's coming back, and he's going to take down the white man, the Edomites. That's why your Pope is down on the ground. It's going to happen by the year 2000. Dude smiles. You ready? That's it, yeah. These places that's going to be hit in this thermonuclear war is America. America's going to be wiped off the face of the planet Earth. That's going to take place before the year 2000. That's right. That's going to take place before the year 2000. That's right. That's going to take place before the year 2000. That's right. America has less than 628 days. America has less than 628 days. That's Tahar. America has less than 628 days before this country is taken out and thermonuclear destroyed. This kingdom, America, is going to be destroyed before the year 2000. evil kingdom that God spoke over the planet. And all you so-called white people, your condemnation, you are condemned to what? Hell. And you're going to be in hell, you're going to be oppressed before the year 2000. Christ is going to come back. Museum of America is going to be destroyed before the year 2000 by thermal nuclear destruction. The pointer stick made all the difference there with that guy, I must say. Let me flip over, try to get our next spot set up and just see where it is. All right, there it is. Let's talk to the creator of the video, my main man, faithful to God, laboring faithfully. What's up with you, man? Welcome to The Dividing Line with Vocab and Kadash. How you doing, man? What's going on, man? I love everything that I'm hearing right now, man. So much information about the history and everything. you know, as the people heard out there, you know, the craziness that was going on in the original school. True that, true that. Well, Faithful, you've been laboring faithfully in this area for a minute, and I want to give you some time here at the end as we close out the Fractured 90s to discuss this year 2000 prophecy, and I believe I saw Tahar making a cameo there, right? He was the one with the 628 days or whatever? Is that right? Right, yes. Yeah. And that was probably around the time that he was with House of David Church. All right, so tell us about this prophecy, because it's kind of been downplayed a little bit here. Yeah, you know, basically, starting somewhere in 1989, I guess, the original school, specifically R. Enoch, came up with this notion from a faulty breakdown that he, I guess, conjectured from Hosea, the sixth chapter. in the second verse, where it talks about the two days and the third day. Yeah. Let me pause it real quick. Everybody pause it. This is significant, because Ariah is the same one who constructed the twelve tribes chart that is preached faithfully, as well as the pure tongue. And so this is significant. Yes, this is very significant. Continue on. Right. So basically, If I'm not mistaken, he tied that together with the verse in Peter, where it talks about days like a thousand years for the Lord, and Christ's words, where He essentially states that He cut the days short in order for the Saints. And that's where he came up with his faulty understanding, and basically used that to springboard this false doctrine onto the school. Everybody was essentially forced to teach it, right? It didn't matter who it was and you know, I'm gonna say this right now It doesn't matter if it was Johanna Nathaniel Tahar as we seen in whoever else all the people in that school taught that right without exception that was something that was mandated and It just goes to show the lack of discernment, as the brother Kadash was explaining. You know, there was just a general lack of discernment in the school, and it manifested itself in a false prophecy. You know, what else you want to say about this prophecy? I got some more clips here. I can play in a minute You want to say anything else about it and its significance before I play this next clip around? 504 see where do I need to be 513 I think yeah, okay I'm not mistaken and I two elders from the original school. I don't remember their names off the top of their head right now, but they do show up in the title of the video. And yeah, they pretty much let it be known that this was Ariadne's doctrine, and he forced it on the school. All right, well, let's play this next part, see what they say up in here. This is an audio excerpt from a debate called, Is the Twelve Tribe Chart Relevant? I started reaching out to different churches and things of that nature, but before I did, I started examining everything. you know, all the doctrine that I, you know, learned. And the brother was right about, you know, Ariel was one of the pioneers to bring out that crisis coming before the year 2000. And the understanding of that came from Isaiah, the chapter, the sixth chapter, that after two days I will restore you, and after the third day you'll live in my sight. So he figured that, you know, the third day is after the year 2000. So that kind of, you know, came with that understanding. Everybody in the school, everyone was. Real quick, real quick. So that was Gabbar right there talking about it. And Gabbar, for those who don't know, is with GOCC now and someone that I've been able to speak with frequently. And actually, Gabbar's another man that I have a lot of respect for. I've enjoyed conversation and dialogue. He's a really knowledgeable man and pretty forthright about stuff. So kind of shout out to Gabbar. What's this next section we got going on here? Now this next section should be the two elders from the original school. Yeah, I believe their names are Azariah and Pariyam. Okay. Yeah. All right, let's play this joint. Good job putting this video together, by the way. Faithful to God. All right, here we go. The Christ is going to return in the year 2000? All of us. That was sanctioned by Hariya, you teachers on the street. and 34th Street Camp. I was in 34th Street Camp right in front of the bank. What's the name of the bank now? The name of the bank? Citibank. Citibank. I was out there teaching that for almost 10 years. From 1989 to 1999, I was teaching that. Oh, wow. And I was honored. I was honored to teach that. If I wasn't teaching that, if I wasn't teaching that, don't kick me out. Excuse me. Well, you talking, you saying something? What up? Was that you? I don't know. That was actually in the video. It's hard to tell what's going on. We apologize. The original audio, everybody, is a little bit poor. But since I stopped it there, I don't want to start back up just yet. So, you guys, Kadash, are you still listening? You with us? He's still around. I'm here. I just went on mute. I'm on mute here. Yeah, I mean, what you got to say about this? What's going on, brother? Hey, shalom, brother, shalom. What's your comment on this? It's just that that's 100 percent accurate. You used to have what you called camp class, where they drilled exactly what was to be taught at camp. Only upper, higher ranking teachers could kind of freestyle on the street. Everybody else had a, you know, they had a pitch. And so what you what you heard was always rehearsed. and authorized okay uh... out there on the street so that that that is a hundred-percent accurate uh... that was one of the so-called dogmas of uh... the hebrew israelite teaching was y2k and uh... and we'll see uh... at the end of this uh... basically this was enforced on everybody in the school uh... this was pretty much a dogma as the brother was saying this was something that they had to basically teach, or they could leave the school. And that's pretty much what it boiled down to. Either obey the, you know, obey that teaching, you know, go out there, preach it, or you can just see your way out. Right. There's some more audio we want to play here. Even in the late 80s, they were teaching about Christ coming back in the year 2000? Yeah, they were teaching that. When I came in, they were teaching that in 1989. They were teaching that. If you were among those who pre-stepped... 1989. Yeah, so that's back, man. Alright, is there some more audio you think I should play for this, or is it mainly the text at that point? No, no, that's pretty much it, and I think that says it all. And pretty much the reason why I put the video together is because I wanted to get some of these people, some of the younger dudes that are caught up in some of these camps, like GMS, or Israel United in Christ, or whether it be the new ISTPK, that's Yohannes' camp, these different guys who might not know about this, to kind of give them an insight into what's going on, or what went on, I should say, back then, and that this should really make them think. I mean, their elders were out there, you know, teaching this doctrine, with no discernment whatsoever. I mean, where is, you know, it's almost, it's almost as if they embody what 1 Corinthians 2, 14 states. The natural man receives not the things of the spirit, but they accomplish this also. Neither can they understand them because they are spiritually discerned. Now, they would assert that that's what we're doing with, you know, making, you know, you know, talking about these things. But think about it. This was Ariah, a natural man, with no spiritual discernment, coming up with the so-called breakdown, uh, telling people Christ is going to return. And yet, I mean, in the Bible, Christ himself states that no one knows the hour except for the father. How could they possibly think to go against Christ's own word and exalt Aria? Right, right, right. I'll say this too. Two, two things on that. Uh, if I may, There's a population out there that has not completely let go of this prophecy either. If you realize that you'll catch some of them saying that, you know, the white man played with the dates. The calendar is off by some. uh... the four hundred years of israel's captivity has to be fulfilled which began in in in uh... a sixteen ninety and let me know what let me just interject for a second so sixteen nineteen when you jump into jamestown virginia is when it seems you might be able to consider the beginning of the transatlantic slave trade in some way As far as coming to what they would call the house of bondage united states of america Sort of this new egypt or babylon not really sure is us babylon or egypt against both But anyways 1619 is when you see the beginning of that and so what's 400 years of captivity everybody 2019? And so that's where you see there's still that apocalyptic strand. However, I do hear the predictions being made a little more tentative, and it'll be interesting to see what happens if you don't see, well, you know, when you probably see the failure again. I wonder if they're gonna say, well, there's other places in the text where it says 430 years. Yes, I kind of anticipate that too. Then the Abraham thing, the Egyptian thing, that will apply to the Egyptian captivity again, but it will be sort of a secondary fulfillment, a reoccurring fulfillment, because right now they try to say that 400 years has nothing to do with the Egyptian captivity. Yeah. And if I could just throw one more thing, the impact, that's something we haven't talked about is a lot of these doctors impacted people, right? Whether or not the the leaders of this movement 100% believe these things or not. I can't say I have my doubts. But the average layperson certainly believed it. And so like I said, one thing we haven't talked about is how this has impacted a lot of people's lives. A lot of brothers that were working menial jobs and for doing things like investing in education, or, you know, just making any kind of moves for themselves financially, academically trade skills and things like that because hey this thing was about to wrap up we're about to be out of here and then we were going to inherit all of america's riches on the way back to you know new jerusalem anyway this is funny like after two thousand all of a sudden you saw a lot of brothers start to go back to school again uh... try to try to step forward and and make some progress for themselves well maybe that's the best thing that came out of that failed prophecy is uh... more guys getting in trade school I don't know, man. Yo, uh, Kadash, final, you know, thoughts on all this, and if I could probe you with this question before you jam out, because we're winding down here on this DL, which again, so thanks to Dr. James White, Rich, holding the downloads, Beyond, Alpha Omega, all that. What do you predict the reaction to this show is going to be on the internet today? That's a fair question. Are you staying away from prophecies now? You don't want to do it too? Yeah, I'm gonna pass you my shirt. Kinda gun-shy now? Alright, let Faithful go first. Faithful, you've heard this show. What's gonna be the reaction, dude? Well, of course they're gonna accuse us of supposedly being agents. Oh, look, Esau paid them off now, you see. They're trying to, you know, the time is coming that they're trying to come against this truth. The reality of the matter is that these guys aren't in the truth. They're in the lies. They're being deceived. And the only thing that I have to say is this, um, this is why I have channels like my own, where, you know, we do debates with Hebrews, like components, uh, usually have them on Monday nights, 11 PM Eastern standard time. Then there's also the brother G man who does his, uh, G man versus the black Hebrew. He does his at 7 30 PM Eastern standard time on Mondays. And I'm just going to say this, if anybody has any issue with what was said today, please, please come on our program and we would love to interact with you. And let's critically examine your doctrines and see if they hold up to the test of biblical exegesis, proper biblical exegesis, and if they stand up to historical accuracy and criticism. Some of the things that they say in regards to history, such as the Dark Ages Doctrine, I don't think we've even touched on that. The Dark Ages Doctrine? This is news to me. I mean, we gotta end this show, but you can't just say that. You gotta tell me, what is the Dark Ages Doctrine? Well, the Dark Ages doctrine, and I'm sure Kadash knows, is basically this belief that the Israelites ruled Europe for a thousand years. Okay, so the black nobility, black royalty. Dark Ages, you get it? Oh, but also they're really... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Come on, man. Oh, okay. Yo, check it, check it. Using that same precept, is Bruce Wayne an Israelite? Right? He's the Dark Knight. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Okay, okay. Maybe I'm not Jake after all maybe I am and I'm just sorry. I was just kidding I don't want to make too many jokes. I'd like to see a debate though Yo, I might bring my afro back just because people comment on I might gotta I might gotta bring it back man It's just a lot of work man. Especially in these summers in Phoenix like it's just it's just kind of you know It takes a little you sleep on and this and that but you know, I might I don't know. We'll see. We'll see. Oh, I What's up? I mean the problem is Esau ain't really paying enough, and so I still got to work You know driving a truck, so they got a dress code, so that's part of the problem, so anyways. I'd like to see a debate is Misha Like Sir Pintor that'd be interesting, but I don't think I'll do that either Somebody's gonna get mad and say I should be killed for that that joke right there, but okay Very quickly if anybody wants to find my channel it is faithful to God and YouTube you can type that in or TTB 2050 Uh, you can just type in Gman, uh, you know, G space man, and you can find his channel. And again, we do debates, uh, Monday night, 7 30 PM Eastern standard time on his channel and 11 PM Eastern standard time on my channel. Good stuff, man. Faithful. Thank you so much for your work in this area, this video, you know, your focus on the gospel as we do this thing, just a mad love on that. Thank you. Thank you. You don't have to jam out or none. We're just kind of that's the final, you know thing Kodosh final shout out and you want to give it a second crack at a prediction about what this is gonna You know produce like how many how many YouTube videos will be? There's gonna be two crowds out there it is there's those that you know, the newer generation of Israelites who have a disdain for the camps and And we'll just kind of sweep that aside and say, well, that was all part of their madness anyway, not realizing that those are their predecessors. Those are the guys that basically forged and handed down what they, you know, the basic tenets of what they subscribe to. And I think we will get maybe a little bit of a backlash from some of the older brothers if they've tuned in. Like we said, Tahar may have something to say. He may feel a little bit vindicated about how that whole deal closed there for him. So I'm just, I'm ready for anything anyway. You know, what I told was, you know, accurate in, you know, the first hand eyewitness experiences and stories rehearsed to me from brothers who were first-hand witnesses as well. Hey, how about this, Faithful? Because I like the way you dropped this real quick. Here's how we're going to end the show. The Scythian passage in Colossians. First of all, do you remember off the top where that is? Because I want to read it, and then I want you to explain real quick how you do the significance of the Scythian in there. Absolutely. So basically that is Colossians 3.11. Can I read it? Yeah, sure. Yes, you can. Where there is neither group... Oh man, sorry, I was about to do a thing and I made myself laugh like a... Okay, let me just respect this. Colossians 3, verse 11. Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free, but Christ is all and in all. What's the significance of that? Because it's gospel right there. Break it down, faithful, and that's how we're going to close. You know, basically, that is in reference to the Magogites. Now, some might say, well, how do you know that's the Magogites? Well, Josephus, who was a natural Israelite, lets us know this in Antiquities of the Jews. If I'm not mistaken, I believe it's book one, and if I'm not mistaken, it might be section six. Now, I could be getting this wrong, but it definitely is in Antiquities of the Jews, and he basically outlines, you know, who the Scythians are there, let it be known that they were originally known as the Maggadites, and then the Greeks are calling them Scythians. So that's a non-Israelite people group is the importance of that, a non-Israelite people group. Now what about the mummies? Right, they're descendants of Japheth, and if you look in Genesis 10 verse 2, we see that the Maggadites are indeed descendants of Japheth. Now, here's the kicker. When you do your research on the Scythians, And anybody can do this. First and foremost, you look at what the ancient writers had to say about them. All of them depict the Scythians as fair-haired, fair-skinned, even going as far as saying that they have golden hair. And this is the most damaging thing. When you Google search Scythian mummies, you're going to see blonde-haired, they're in the people looking like brad bed up in here looking like brad pitt right right and and that proved definitively that caucasian people could be were indeed from the carcasses mountain that proved definitively that caucasian people will be paid and they cannot get around that they can't make them is like uh... and and let me tell you this also shoots a hole into the whole white men if you thought that great And if I could add one more thing, just very quickly. In the Septuagint, in Job 42, verse 17, Job, by the Israelite translators of the Septuagint, this is 200-300 years before the time of the apostles, Job is identified as an Edomite. And guys the reason why this is important is because the gospel matters and when Christ leaves He says go into all the world preaching this gospel to all the nations You're gonna teach them the commands teach them how to observe it, you know, basically make disciples right baptize them and this is the Trinitarian formula the name singular of the Father and the Son and the Spirit. It's a gospel issue, man, and we go Revelation 5 and we see the completion of that where every nation, tribe, and tongue is up in there. And that's why we say, yes, God chooses. Yes, God has His elect. We're okay with that because that's scriptural. It's true! That he predestined before the foundation of the world was laid in love according to his plan his purpose. That's all true, but Don't let us dare make the elect Only one type of people from which he draws because first John 2 2 says he is the propitiation for our sins That means the sacrifice that atones in a satisfactory way He is a propitiation for our sins and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world now We know the whole world's not Save so the sacrifice hasn't been made for literally everyone in the whole world John uses world in different ways That's that Greek word cosmos and here. It's clear. He's saying not just for us cats, but cats out there as well Christ is a propitiation and that's where salvation is to be found and with that we close out today's Broadcast of the dividing line props to dr. White for letting us do this crazy business process rich for holding it down Thank you faithful to God for joining. Thank you Thank you to Kadash for joining. Vocabulona signing out. We're going to do this again next week is the plan. Man, it's going to get crazy. I don't know what's going to happen over this next week, but we'll just have fun with it either way because this type of stuff is fun, man. Urban Apologetics for the hood. We need this. All right. Peace out, y'all.