Will please turn in your Bibles to Jeremiah 23. The book of Jeremiah 23. I'll begin reading in verse 9. I'm going to read a lot of passages, especially at the beginning of the message. Because of that, I'm going to skip down through the passage, and I hope I don't leave you behind. But please turn to the passages when I call them out, because I believe the Bible speaks for itself on the subject that I'm going to preach on tonight. People say, why do you have to bring the subjects up? Because I believe the Bible. I don't mean that lightly. I'm practicing what I've preached for 18 and a half years as a pastor here. I'm practicing what I've taught the students in our college. Why speak on it? Well, another reason is our people are being attacked. You know, I spoke to the leadership of the church, to the deacons and the staff. I spoke to the college because I knew they'd be going back and being asked about things. But our people are being attacked. Why speak on it? Well, another reason I have to speak on the subject is that Jack Hyle's reply was full of holes, and I have to say, full of lies. Why speak on it? I'll tell you another reason, because the hordes are coming out of Hammond, and excuse me, with buttons that say, I'm 100% for Jack Hyle. And the whole idea is if you're not 100% for Jack Hiles, you're wrong. That's it. All around the country, I'll speak on a little later tonight, but missionaries are being turned down as far as speaking if they're not 100% for Jack Hiles. They're losing their support if they're not 100% for Jack Hiles. Churches are being tore up if the pastor isn't 100% for Jack Hiles. And what's that done is put the local church pastor on the defense. Either you make Jack Hiles a bishop, either you kowtow to him or you better defend yourself. You ever think of it that way? It's been that way for quite a while. Now, I'm not 100% for Jack Hiles and I want to tell you why tonight. It's not a subject, it's not something that I wanted to speak on. And I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I've never prepared a message that tore me up like preparing this message. It made me sick at my stomach at times. It kept me from sleeping at times. But I believe as you read the Bible, whether it be in the Old Testament or New, God always had some men that would stand up and say, that is wrong. I've had preacher friends say, you're going to kill yourself. Very well may. It won't hurt our church, but it very well may hurt our college. But I've never been a man that would say, well, let's weigh the damages and by that choose whether we're going to speak on a subject or not. I believe God's Word has to be defended. I believe God's men have to be defended. I believe the independent Baptist movement has to be defended. Now, there's people that are much more qualified than I to do it, and some have. But I feel God wanted me to also. And so again, as we read the passages, I beg of you, look at what you're reading, because it'll be pertinent to the subject matter. Keep awake. It's going to be a long message. Not as long as some we've had in the past, but it's going to be a long message. Keep awake. and ask God to speak to you. Let's pray. Our Heavenly Father, Lord, I ask You to guide me as I speak. Of course, this isn't a normal sermon, but I so believe it's important, important. Oh, my heart breaks that others won't stand up. Now, Lord, even as we speak, I pray this might be an encouragement for others to speak on the subject. Lord, that we have no mediator between You and us. We have no bishop. We're independent Baptist churches. And we hold Your Word high. And we want to go by Your Word, not by man's word, not by my word or any other man's word. So Holy Spirit, please, guide my thoughts and my words. And then, Lord, I pray that many would be taught by this, be convinced about what's right. I'm convinced that this area, this subject matter, if it's not dealt with, if preachers and people don't respond to it in a proper manner, it'll mean the end of our independent Baptist movement as we know it. So God, I pray that You'll bless this message and bless people as they take their stand on this subject across America. In Your name we pray, Amen. The devil's on a rampage in America. We could speak on many subjects, but I think when Jim Baker fell and the news media had a holiday, I cringed. Then when Jimmy Swaggart, the one that seemed to stand in the church of God, when he fell, more of us cringed. But we said, well, praise God, they're not vastus. But we forgot a fellow by the name of Dave Hiles. Dave Hiles would make Jimmy Swagger and Jim Baker look like altar boys. Dave Hiles. Having adultery with girls from the time he was a teenager. having it hidden, covered up, and being made a youth pastor at 18 years old, and continuing his adulterous affairs. When it got too hot there at First Baptist Church of Hammond, he was sent down to Dallas, Texas, and went on his merry way, committing adultery, having affairs. But God has His way. And there is a certain briefcase of his full of pictures of nude women that he'd have affairs with. It was thrown in the garbage, and as I understand it, the janitor found it, made its way to the deacon, and Dave Hiles was exposed. Now, I think the very saddest thing about Dave Hiles is not all the women that he ruined, even though that was sickening, It's not the babies, even though that's so sad. But it's the fact that the man that we call our leader, even though we don't have a denomination, even though we don't have bishops, the man that was considered the leader of the independent Baptist movement, hid that sin. Let me take it another step further. A thing that's sadder than him hiding it is the response of independent Baptist preachers across America allowing him to hide it and defending the fact that he hid it. There's something wrong with a movement that knows that their leader is hiding adulterous, sickening affairs and says we shouldn't say anything about it. They want to hide it themselves. They're afraid that they might be besmudged by it themselves. It's sad. Another famous trio is the Smith brothers. Out of Hammond, the most famous of the brothers that would come out of Hammond, the most famous three brothers in the ministry, I would say, Oh, they were famous. We thought they were doing a good work in Atlanta and Michigan. Down in Texas. I preached for one. But it came out that the man in Atlanta was wife-swapping. I mean, the staff and deacons, wife-swapping. He finally divorced his wife and married a deacon's wife and vice versa. They get along good. It's a family affair. It's sick. The other man Bob Yockey worked with as his assistant pastor ran off with a woman. The other man, the man I preached for, used to be the pastor of Longview Baptist Church, has had so many affairs and so many accusations that it's a joke. And there's exposés in national magazines and news stories. Now you say, you ought not to just listen to the newspapers. That's correct. You're looking at a guy that doesn't like the news media very much. But it's sad, it's so sad, that when we have such a disregard for God's Word that we have all the fodder given to the newspapers that they ever need. Preachers' wives that are lesbians. And the preachers are still in the pulpit. A preacher was at a S.W.O.R.D. conference. I was told about this. I shouldn't say at a S.W.O.R.D. conference. The S.W.O.R.D. conference was being held at his church. And he announced to the speakers of this large conference that when it was over he was going to take off with a secretary. They finished the conference because they didn't want to discomfort the people or have any problem with the schedule, and he just left his wife and took off with his secretary. That's the norm in the Independent Baptist Movement today. You hear of this all over the place. One man was speaking for a famous preacher, After the meetings, he would go to the hotel, change his clothes, get himself a nice stogie, get a cab, and off he'd go to the red light district. The problem was that the head of the baggage handlers there happened to be a deacon at the church where he was speaking. And a cabbie came back and said, you see that guy? He's the raunchiest of the raunchy. He was a special speaker at the deacon's church. I could stand here and I could tell you stories like this for hours. I heard Dr. Evans The president of Hiles Anderson College say, I heard him with my ears say, it's a shame we have more of our men that we've trained for the ministry divorced than we do have in the pulpit. That's a sad statement. A very sad statement. Now, you say, what is my responsibility? You ask me, what should I do as a pastor of a local church? Should I do what's popular? That seems to be what most of my friends want to do. Just do what's popular. Treat it as though Xerox would treat damage control. We are not Xerox. We are not IBM. We are a local church. We are a part, we are the Church of Christ, you see. And we don't go by Xerox's handbook or DuPont's handbook. We go by God's handbook. And God tells us exactly how to handle things like this. A well-known passage, every pastor knows it, is Matthew 18, verse 15. The Bible very clearly teaches us every preacher boy has learned in college how to deal when you have a problem with a Christian brother. Everybody knows it. They know the passage. Everybody knows how to turn to it. Matthew 18, verse 15. Moreover, if thy brother shall trespass against thee, Go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone. Everybody knows that. If he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. That's how the Bible says to take care of a problem. Amen? That's the way we've practiced it in this church. Now, some preachers say, I don't believe in church discipline. Then you don't believe in the Bible. That's the way. It's not popular. It's not a happy time. But we've had to exercise church discipline on our biggest giver at one time. We had to throw him out of the church at one time. It's not a happy time, but it's Bible. And if he shall neglect to hear them, Tell it unto the church. We've had to do that, haven't we? But if he neglects to hear the church, what does it say? Let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican. Now, as I read the Bible, the Bible says, here's how to handle this. If the accused person doesn't want to handle it in the Bible way, then you're through with them. Now, that doesn't matter whether he's a newborn babe in Christ or if he's a pastor of the largest church in the world. The Bible has a method and a way to handle problems within a church. And if he neglects to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican. You say, but you mean even if he's a pastor? Paul said in 2 Thessalonians chapter 3, And again, please turn to these passages and read them. You might want to write them down and look at them after church tonight. 2 Thessalonians 3, verses 6 and 7. 2 Thessalonians 3, verses 6 and 7. Now, we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which you have received from us." Now, please follow what I'm saying. I am not out to get anybody. I'm surely not out to get college students, because we're not going to gain from this. But what does the Bible say? The Bible says, now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourself from every brother that walketh disorderly and not after the tradition which he received of us. What the Bible says is if you don't go by this Word, get away from it! It's clear? It's very clear. Every brother. Verses 14 and 15. And if any man obey not the word by this epistle, note that man and have no company with him that he may be ashamed. You see, there's too much politics today. That's the problem. We're afraid of the consequences. The Bible doesn't say hate the man. The Bible says know them and have no company. I believe with all my heart, if independent pastors, Baptist pastors had handled this thing correctly, it wouldn't have gone to the extreme that it's to today. You count him not as an enemy, but admonishing him as a brother. We don't hate anybody. We don't want to hurt anybody. But we love God. We love the Bible. Now notice here in this passage that the Apostle Paul used himself as an example. And I guess I would say that if Paul can use himself as an example, if Paul says he has to live by this, why not Roger Vogelin? You see? Why not Mike Edwards? Why not Jack Hiles? You see? Turn with me to 1 Timothy chapter 3. Here we find the qualifications of a pastor. 1 Timothy chapter 3. Now, verse 2 talks about that he should be blameless. Again, this is elementary. This again is something that's taught in the freshman class of Bible college. that if you're going to be a pastor, you're blameless, which means you don't have a handle. A person cannot point to you and say you're a liar. A person cannot point to you and say you're an adulterer. It doesn't mean perfect, but you have no handle. When a person has a handle, he's disqualified from the ministry. When you can point a finger and say he's an adulterer, he's disqualified. He's a liar. He's disqualified. It doesn't mean if you have a lie, you understand? Every preacher, every Bible student had this taught to them. Then down in verses 4 and 5, here's the qualification that says, "...one that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity. For if a man know not how to rule his own home, how shall he take care of the church of God?" Common sense, isn't it? If you can't take care of a house of 5 or 10 people, how are you going to take care of a church of 500 or 1,000? Common sense, isn't it? You see, if we believe the Bible, the Bible says, train up a child in a way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it. Amen? That's what the Bible says. If you believe the Bible, there's a way to train your child up. If you do it the Bible way, he'll turn out right. It's common sense then that if a pastor knows his Bible and follows the Bible, his family will grow upright. Well, people don't hardly believe that anymore. It's a sermon that was preached across the country 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, especially 50, 100 years ago. It's a sermon that was preached always. You train a child upright, he will not depart from it. But today we want to make excuses. But if we believe the Bible, That pastor, if he's going to continue to pastor, is going to have a family, not perfect, but a family that doesn't have a handle. A family that's right with God. But what do you do when you think a pastor is in serious sin? 1 Timothy 5.1 says, and this is quoted quite a bit in the day and age we live in. Rebuke not an elder, and of course here an elder means a pastor, as we think of a pastor, an overseer, pastor of a church. Rebuke not an elder, but entreat him as a father, and the younger men as brethren. That pastor is to be protected against gossip. And I want to say You ought not to be looking for trouble with any pastor. You ought not to be picking his life away. So many times the preacher has to preach on the family, the preacher has to preach on soul winning, the preacher preaches on how we ought to be, and the people, rather than following the pastor, they're picking at him, thinking if they can pick him apart, then they don't have to follow him. That's the devil. We shouldn't be picking at any pastor in America, any evangelist, any missionary, The Bible says don't rebuke them. Go down to verse 17. And I'm skipping down only for time's sake. Let the elder that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially they that labor in the word and doctrine. For the Scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn, and the laborer is worthy of his reward." Now look at verse 19, "...against the elder received not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses." This is a pastoral epistle. This is written to a pastor. This is telling us how to handle a pastor that falls into sin. Now, we're told that he should be protected. But if there is a serious sin, and as you read the Bible, there are three or four serious areas that a pastor ought to be called upon. One would be adultery and immorality. One would be false doctrine. One would be his home not being right. Those areas are very clearly set forth in the Bible. And the Bible says if there's a serious problem that comes up, don't look for the problem, don't pick for it. But if that problem comes up, you bring it up before two or three witnesses. Now, look at verse 20. Them that sin, if they're guilty, them that sin rebuke before all that others also may fear. That is a Bible principle. It's a Bible principle that Baptists do not follow. The Bible says that if they are guilty of sin, it ought not to be hid. As young preachers, we started this church. I remember saying to Sharon that the older leaders were teaching their children to be adulterers because they were running around the country covering the sin of adultery in the pulpit and putting people that were guilty of adultery, and you can't show me one place in the Bible, you can't show me one place in God's Word that says a man that's guilty of adultery should still be in the pulpit. The Bible says, restore them, yes, but not restore them to the pulpit. Love them, yes. Weep with them, yes. Help them, yes. Do all that you can for them, yes. But the Bible never says to restore them to the pulpit. But all my ministry, I've seen the leadership of the fundamental movement going around the country trying to cover up deep sin, sin of adultery and try to put them back in the pulpit. And I remember saying to my wife more than once, you know, they're teaching their kids to grow up and commit adultery because they're being taught that it's okay. They're being taught that they'll get by with it. They're being taught that it'll be covered up. And we're reaping that philosophy today. That anti-Bible philosophy. Then that sin rebuked before all that others also may fear." You see, a pastor has a special protection against gossip, and he needs it. But I'll tell you what, he also has a special accountability, and we need that too. When you cover up the sin of a pastor, I've heard one time after another, A preacher in Ohio was guilty of adultery. Man, the deacons followed him and took pictures and everything else. They called him before the board, and of course he resigned. But they made a mistake. They didn't rebuke him before off. He came running back a while later and attacked the deacons and tore the church up. It happens all the time. All the time. There's a well-known songwriter and singer. He used to travel the circuit. He was a child sexual abuser. And he went from church to church, but pastors kept on hiding it. I talked to one pastor, the last pastor I know where he was being hid, and he caught the problem. He was messing around with kids in the church, and they hid it and sent him across town to another. That guy came back and was stealing this other pastor's people and continuing to mess around with the kids over there. You're sinning against others if you don't rebuke me for all. I'm not saying every little sin. I'm not saying if you're late for work. I'm not saying if a kid cheats on a test. But I'm talking about pastors. I'm talking about adultery. I'm talking about incest. I'm talking about this type of a thing. What the Bible talks about. There's always been a teaching among Bible believers. That if a man's guilty of adultery, if a man's guilty of false doctrines, if a man's guilty of having the wrong family, his wife, especially a lesbian like we hear today, he's disqualified himself. He's disqualified himself. That it always has been until the last 10 or 15 years. Nathan said to David, thou didst it secretly. But I will do this thing before all of Israel. Look at verse 21. I charge thee before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. Then preacher after preacher come in to me and say, how can you do this? Because the Bible orders us to do it. Not by partiality, you understand. Not preferring one person above another. Isn't it interesting that we can point our finger at Jimmy Baker? We can laugh at Swagger. Strike out against all the rest. But when it comes to one of our own, I mean, this is what preachers are saying. I ask them, well, do you preach against MacArthur? Oh, yes. Do you hold out and preach against Billy Graham? Oh, yes. But how can you preach against Jekyll? How can you not? Who should independent Baptist hold up more than an independent Baptist? Huh? It's easy to go get the Church of God people, isn't it? I'm not saying go out and get them. I'm not talking about a hateful thing. I'm not talking about that. But I've always been taught God uses a pure, clean vessel. And today we are being taught very explicitly that you don't have to be pure and clean. And I say the Bible teaches you got to be pure and clean. And if we allow this, these preachers that keep on asking me, why, why, why? If we allow this, we're going to have dirty preachers all over America. We're going to be producing them out of our colleges and out of our seminaries. We're going to ruin. It's going to be the end. Somebody's got to wave a red flag. Jack Hiles, of course, has been accused of immorality, false doctrine, financial misdealings. But Jack Hiles is a man who's held so high by himself and others that he's thought of as above biblical practice. Now, that's a fact. That's the problem today, and that's cultish. Now, I know people are going to listen to the tape of this message, and preachers are going to listen to it, and I say again, it's cultish. Vic Nischick. tried to see Jack Hiles years ago about an alleged affair with his wife. He tried to go the biblical route. He tried to do it the way he was taught in Matthew 18. Jack Hiles would not discuss it, would not answer his allegations. He took it to the deacons. The deacons wouldn't give him satisfaction either. Wouldn't really listen. Laugh at him. I'm saying, people say, it's a local church issue. It's a local church issue, but we're talking about a pastor who said, I have taken the steering wheel of fundamentalism. We're talking about a guy who says, I'm the pastor of 10,000 pastors. I'm talking about the guy who purposefully has taken the leadership of fundamentalism who has a pastor school, who has a college, who has more influence upon independent Baptists than anybody else in America, and he would not go according to the biblical method. Now, that alone is wrong. He has proven himself guilty. As you know, about 18 months ago, somebody said that I was an adulterer. I mean, I screamed and I yelled and I hired an investigator and hired a lawyer and said, you're not going to live with saying that type of thing. It's not true. It's over. You see, anybody that's innocent will fight and get mad. Now that's the truth, isn't it? I heard of another preacher friend of mine. Somebody said that she had his baby out of wedlock. One of the finest men you want to find. I'm not saying that he can't be guilty, but boy, I'd never believe he's guilty. And one of the reasons I believe he's not guilty is he went right to his people, right to the pulpit and said, I'm not guilty! Guilty man runs and hides. Guilty man runs and gets lawyers. Understand? I'm not saying you shouldn't defend yourself with a lawyer, but I'm saying a guilty man tries to put up a facade. Dr. Godfrey, a man that had been a loyal staff member for 15 years, tried to approach Dr. Hiles. Now, I want to say something. At least I read this, that Dr. Godfrey was a man who would literally put his hands on the bricks on the alley that Dr. Hiles walked on and prayed for the man. I'm talking about somebody extremely loyal, blindly loyal. Dr. Godfrey, a man who had given his life for Dr. House, you see, came to him and said, I've got a problem. Will you answer this? Will you at least listen to me? No! We're not talking about somebody trying to be nasty. We're not talking about somebody trying to tear him up. We're talking about a beloved follower, who I say again, put his hands on the bricks and prayed for him because he walked on those bricks. No. One after another, Ed Nelson, Mr. Fundamentalist, Mr. Clean, wrote Dr. Hiles a letter. Didn't even want his secretary to know about it because he was so shocked at the allegation, so he wrote it out in longhand, kept the copies at home. Just ask Dr. Hiles, will you please answer me? You owe us an answer. Answer me. No answer. Now, I'm saying from every angle, people tried to use the biblical route. Dr. Hanford, Greenville, South Carolina. He worked and worked to try and see him. I understand there was a meeting set up in Greenville, South Carolina after one of the sessions of the S.W.O.R.D. conference last summer. That's when Dr. Hiles all of a sudden lost his mind and had to be walked off the platform. But Dr. Hanford's from Greenville and he got up to the hospital room and said, Dr. House, you've got to answer these allegations. No, I won't. Do you understand what I'm saying? You can sit here and you can say, you're wrong, you're wrong. I'm saying he's wrong. I'm saying there's a Bible way to take care of these things. I'm telling you, I heard these rumors for years and years and years, and I wanted to think the best. I didn't say anything to you people. I wanted to hope for the best. But when a man blatantly will not throw the Bible away, the only thing I can say is he must be guilty. Now, Dr. Heil says, if you're not 100% for me, you're against me. And now poor Ron Williams with his girl's home calls people up and they say, are you 100% for Dr. Hiles? And he asks that they say, no, sorry, no meetings. Now missionaries call up and say, can we have a meeting? Are you 100%? That is trash. You talk about a local church, that is trash. I mean, just after the thing happened, we tried to get meetings in California, and I mean, just like that, word was spread of where I stood. I hadn't said a word to anybody, but word was spread, and we were blackballed in the state of California. That's trash! I called up the fellow that was blackballing us, and I said, here, why don't you at least read the article? I won't read the article. I'm not part of the problem. I'm not part of the solution. You are too! trash. Every workday since this has happened, I've had preachers call me up, I mean shook, because Hiles Anderson students are coming home and jumping up in their Sunday school classes and their church services, accusing their pastor of disloyalty because they're not 100% for Jack Hiles. You talk about bishops! You talk about popes! They're tearing their churches up. Ones that aren't home, they're calling. Another guy called me up and he says, I don't know what to do. They're calling from Hammond, calling, calling, calling my church members, saying I'm wrong. Hey, listen to me. No preacher has to be 100% for Jack Hiles. His closest friend isn't 100% for him. Tearing up churches across America. And yet, you shouldn't talk about it. Pretend it's not going on. He's too powerful. I had one man say, you know, I fear for you because if you do what you're saying you're going to do, He's going to turn on you. Let Him turn. I'll take God on my side any day. Now, I'm saying all these men, for years, tried to use the biblical method and it was refused, and now we're bummed. Because we're standing for what's right. Any lawyer would understand that. I mean, you just look at it. We're just doing... He won't go the Bible way, so what are we supposed to do? We go the Bible way. And it is the Bible way. Our men, we could have people give testimony here. Our men that work with first Baptist men are being told by their men, get out of that church! He's not for Hiles! What does that have to do with it? You understand the mentality? Get out of that church because it's not for Childs. Do you understand the mentality? Catholic Church isn't that blatant. We've got two families gone. College students gone. I talk to their pastors and I say, you know, do you understand what's happening? Well, I understand, and I know it's heresy. I may not be told. I know it's heresy, and I know there's wrong financial dealings, but I don't think you ought to be acting the way you're acting. How in the world are we supposed to act? How are we supposed to respond? I'll tell you something, I'm not only not 100% for Jack Hiles, but I'm not 1% for Jack Hiles. Because of the size and because of his leadership, I've backed him for years even though I've had serious reservations for all those years. I've never used his name and never hinted to use the name until just recently. But I've always preached, haven't I? You people that have been here for 18 years, you've heard me preach against this idea that soul winning covers all sin. That's been being taught for all those years. I mean, our teenagers would go up there and come back, and they just blatantly say, you know, we can do anything, just fill up the bus, just get a bunch of souls saved. That's not of the Bible. You don't put soul winning first. You put God's honor first. That's rudimentary. You put God's honor first. If you honor God first, you'll be a soul winner. And let me say that there's no other church but two in America that sees more souls saved than this church. We're pro soul winning, but soul winning doesn't cover sin. Some funny doctrine over there, I've always thought that. I've been being cussed by their teams for years. You that go out to sporting events, you've seen it. Not only by their teams, but by their coaches. Cuss you out. But I always wanted to have a good relationship. I never wanted anybody to feel we were jealous. We were flat on our back one time. I mean flat on our back. When they were building the college over there. And we gave them $10,000. We didn't have $10,000, but we gave them $10,000. You say, why? Because I wanted to support them. You say, I thought you just said you didn't agree with... I didn't. And that's what I've tried to teach all the time. You don't have to agree with everybody to be a friend to the person. You can have questions. But why do I believe the allegations now, you might ask. 1973. When a Jack Howe secretary, a lady that was raised in the church, and work directly with Dr. Hiles came into my office against her will. Her husband was making her come. Her husband was making her quit her job. Her husband was making at the church of Hammond. And as she cried, and against her will, he said, now you tell him. And she started a sad story. She said, Dr. Hiles is having an affair with Jenny Nischick. I'd never heard the name Jenny Nischick. Dr. Hiles now says he's been accused for five years. I heard it in 1973 by one of his secretaries. Went in and told about how they were on some kind of a trip on buses or together as a staffer, I think it was a bus ministry, something like that, and how they were caught in a motel room. Went in and talked about how Mr. Nischick was living alone and Mrs. Hiles, the Hiles and the Nischicks were living separately. She went into detail. If you read that story, of Sumner's, she told that story in detail. The flicking lights and all. That's the only family that's ever joined our church from First Baptist Church of Hammond directly. They joined the church, and as I recall, they were members for about 10 years, and I had no reason whatsoever not to believe her, but I didn't want to believe it. I told myself she must be mistaken, secretary or no secretary, inside or not. I mean, again, you have to see the circumstances. She wasn't a gossip. She didn't want to tell me what she was telling. But I pushed it aside and I backed Jack Kyle. Not too many years later, I was preaching for Jim Mastin in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Afterward, we had a sandwich with Jim Mastin and his assistant pastor. His assistant pastor had been Dave Heil's best friend as they went to college. As we ate, he started telling stories about Dave Heil. I mean in detail, naming names of people that he had committed adultery with. And since then, I've found it all to be true. One name after another, he's had an affair here, had an affair here, and how he was messing with the teenagers, and how there was so much going on. But he said, Dave Hiles laughed about it and said, I'll never get caught because I have twice as much on my father. I'm talking about the 70's I was told this. Twice as much. And then he told the exact same story again. About his father and Jenny Nischick. and about how his father would sit in the window there and see the lights flick on and off, and how they see their father take off and go over to the mischief home. Do you understand? Now, you call me hateful. You know what I did with that information? Put it back. I said, he must be wrong. I must say, I started thinking about our teenagers. Remember in the early days of our church, our teenagers went up there to First Baptist for school. And let's just say they didn't come back very spiritual, and let's just say they stayed at Dave Howe's house. And I remember thinking, wow, if they're so close friends to Dave Howe's, why do they have the problems they have? But when Dave Howe's fell, all that stuff started rushing back. When Dave Hiles fell, I thought about the guy saying, he did this, and did this, and did this, and did this, haha, but I'll never get caught. Problem is, he got pushed to Texas and he didn't have a daddy to cover for him anymore. When everybody in the country knew Dave Hiles was guilty, when everybody in the country knew about the pictures, what a jerk. carried pictures around a briefcase of him with naked people. What a jerk. I can't say in public, I mean that guy is a pervert. He's just not an adulterer, I'm saying a pervert. Everybody in the country knew he was guilty, Jack Hiles still said he was innocent. That told me Jack Hiles was a liar. I talked to Jim Vineyard, and I hope he doesn't mind me using his name. I didn't mean to use his name. I've tried not to use names. But I talked to Jim Vineyard for hours. Jim Vineyard said that Jack Hiles was the biggest liar he'd ever been associated with. He said that he'd rather tell a lie than tell the truth. For hours, Jim Vineyard told me of one perversion after another. I got a real straight story from Bob Yockey, who, as I mentioned, was Tim Smith's assistant pastor when he ran off. Why was Bob Yockey so far down in the dumps when he came here? Because he was told, lie or else. Do you understand what I'm saying? I'm saying Jack Hiles is a liar. Now, people don't want to hear that, but Jack Hiles is a liar. Alive. Hey, since then I've been told about so many things. Not only told, let me say this. Not only told, but we've seen it. A man here in a church hired one of the deacons. Now follow this. You say, he's not responsible for everything. Follow what I'm saying. This is just a little tip of the iceberg. Hired one of his deacons because he wanted a good Christian man to work with. The man had worked for a very short period of time when it was found that he was messing with the women. Dr. Barron's charged to his house with a punch his face out. He wasn't home. His wife was there. Dr. Barron said, Do you know your husband's a whore monger? She started crying and said, Oh, not again. He does this every place he goes. He's always committing adultery with women. Dr. Barron said, Does Dr. Howes know about it? She said, I go to him all the time and he does nothing. That's one little example. I've had people tell me, people say, well this is second hand, it's second hand. There's too many. There's too many. This would be upheld in any court of law. A man that worked at the mission told me about how the director of the mission was having an affair with a whore. And it was brought to Dr. Hiles' attention, but Dr. Hiles would do nothing. They came back again and he still did nothing. Sent him the slips from the X-rated movies. Would do nothing! Do you understand what I'm saying? A man that would sit up on the platform, Do nothing. I'll go into this later on his response. But Dr. Howell said he's never had anybody guilty of adultery kept on a staff, and I'll say he's a liar. He's a liar because I know otherwise. I know. A lot of this isn't second-hand. What I'd call, this is not second-hand at all. I know a guy whose family was in this church for 15 years, was caught in the act of adultery. A well-known staff member caught in the act of adultery. He called me up and told me about it. Is that secondhand? Called me up and told me about it. You see, he was upset because they were shipping his girlfriend. Let me stop and say something too. When you see church members leave here, it makes me sick to my stomach. People sin, they get caught in their sin, and they get mad and leave. Did you hear me? Then they go around saying, they're this, and they're this, and they're this, and they're this. Come off of it! Not only that, but I know the guard that caught him in the act of adultery. You say, what happened? They shipped the girl and moved him up? And if I named his name, every pastor in America knows his name. Do you understand what I'm saying? I'm talking about a perversion. I'm talking about a sex pool. I'm talking about lies. People say, I'll wait and see how Dr. Howes responds, and I'll wait. You know, creatures are just afraid to take a stand. They're more afraid of Dr. Howes. They're more afraid of the status quo than they are of God. We can lose all our college students. We can lose our buildings. If that's God's will, then that's God's will. A lot of people in the Bible lost things for standing for God. That's no sign of whether you're successful or not. Do you want to leave as a member? Go on. Go play church someplace. If you want to stay, then stay and let's stand. And let's be the type of church members we ought to be, and let's fill the gap. Again, the normal preacher, almost every preacher I know says, we'll just have to wait and see what happens. We don't have to wait and see. Just what I've told you, he has no standards for his deacons and staff. The Bible tells us we're to have standards. I mean, the Bible goes... I'm not going to read it. You know the Bible has explicit standards. Every pastor, every deacon is supposed to be the husband of one wife, and that doesn't mean at a time either. Amen? Understand? This has been a belief down through the years. You didn't have divorced people on your staff. You don't have divorced people teaching. You don't have divorced people preaching. You don't have divorced people on your deacon board. You don't have it! You don't have adulterers either. And you don't have people whose kids are. That's a fact. If he can't take care of your house, how can he take care of the Church of God? That's what the Bible teaches. Another thing is, he has no family standards, and I've already gone into that. Another thing is, it's false doctrine. Heresy. Another area is, he's a liar. I was talking to another big leader in fundamentalism, and I said, he's a liar here, and you know it, and he's a liar here, and you know it, and he's a liar here, and you know it. He said, well, you know, I agree, Jack ought not to do that. Nobody will take his stand. Well, I guess what I'm asking is, should we have a man leading us? who's a liar, who perverts the Bible, who is teaching young preachers all over America not to have standards in their church. You see, it's one thing to talk. It's one thing to yell. It's another thing to produce. When I think of Dave Hiles, I think of Eli. In Samuel chapter 2, verse 22, we read, Now, Eli was very old and heard all that his sons did unto the Israelites and how they lay with the women that assembled at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. I'm going to skip down here. Wherefore kicked ye at my sacrifice? What he's saying is, I made you a priest. I don't have time to read the whole passage. I made you a priest! You have standards and you have not kept those standards. Why do you kick at my sacrifice and at my offering which I have commanded in my habitation? And honoreth thy sons above me, that's it. Honoreth thy sons above me to make yourselves fat for the chiefest of all the offerings of Israel, Israel my prophet, It goes on and says, them that honor me I will honor, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed. And we know God killed Eli and killed his son. And I believe with all my heart that if you raise up a child and away he should go, when he is old he'll not depart from it. I believe that. As a pastor and a leader, I wouldn't point my finger at a guy who stayed in the ministry and his 35-year-old son had gone haywire. But we're not talking about a 35-year-old son going haywire. We're talking about a 15-year-old, 18-year-old, a kid that became the youth pastor being put right in the position where he shouldn't be. tearing up the lives. You see, it's interesting, and again, I don't feel free to name names, but all my friends, all the guys with big churches around here, the guys that know what's going on, and it doesn't mean you have to have a big church to know what's going on, but the guys who know what's going on in this area would stand where I'm standing. You say, why? Because they've run into the poor mothers whose daughters have been ruined by David Hiles, that's why. Because they've seen the sin and the debauchery, and they've seen the lies. They've seen it! It's like an oozing, pussing sore. Why expose Jack Hiles? Because he's a compulsive liar. He lied and covered up for days, for years, and then he teaches false doctrine. If you listen to Jack Hiles' tapes, you'll hear him over and over again say, now, this is something new. This is something you probably never heard before. I want to say again, only cults do that. You see, I can't give you anything that the Apostle Paul hasn't given you. In fact, I'll go further and say, I can't give you anything Spurgeon didn't give you. I mean, if those guys that walked with God through the centuries, if they haven't given it, how am I going to give it? Only somebody with false teachings is going to give you something new. Now, Jack Hiles teaches the eternal humanity of God. And when he was accused of it, he said it was a slip of the tongue. Now, I've got the great Dr. Barron at the controls back there with somebody else. Oh, the great Grantquist. And I want you to listen. This portion, rather than reading it, I want you to listen to the slip of the tongue, and I want you to understand, I forgot to show you, there's two tapes involved here, and I guarantee you, you want to go down to the bookstore and buy those tapes, you can. It's not a slip of the tongue, it's an entire message at two different times, and there's other times when he's taught the same thing. He believes in eternal humanity of Jesus Christ, which is heresy, which is Mormon doctrine. What he says is Jesus Christ was man at the creation of mankind. He was man as he walked the face of this earth, and he's man now. It's heresy! Now listen to this. Not really. Human nature. Our Heavenly Father, tonight, this is the truth. All these people have never heard before. Some have. But hundreds and several thousand people in this room have never heard this truth before. One of that found God was human. Was human. The Lord didn't say he became human. He said he already was human. Jesus always was the human part of the Godhead. You see, we equate humanity with fallen flesh, but that is not true. Jesus has always been, he was from the beginning, the man-like person of the Carthage. Now don't think that's liberalism. It's not. See, I'm not trying to pull Jesus down to man. I'm trying to pull man up to where he ought to be. See, being a man is something else. It was King David who said to Solomon, when he was telling Solomon about the fact that Solomon would someday be the king, and King David said to Solomon, show thyself a man. He wasn't saying flex your muscles and show them how strong you are. He wasn't saying pick up your weights and show them how much you can bench press. He was saying show thyself as a real man like Jesus was a real man, always was, always will be. I'm saying, what if the Godhead, human, that Jesus was already man, And always was man. And always was human. And was already human. He just became flesh in Bethlehem. By the way, he's still man. Tonight. Folks have the idea that Jesus was God and he was God. But he was the human part of God. Look, God made us in his image. That's why we love the group God loves. Human beings are made to love. So to love is human. We are made to worship God. So to worship is human. Sinning is not human. Doing wrong is not human. Doing right is human. Because Jesus was the human of the Godhead. God decided to make some more human beings. God enjoyed the fellowship with Jesus, the Son, so much. God decided to make a whole race of little Jesuses. So He made man in order that there may be an entire race of people who could all mean to Him what Jesus meant to Him in eternity. Now, as God made man in the Garden of Eden, he was human. Hear me now. In the Garden of Eden, when man awoke of God, fellowship with God, obeyed God, he was human. When man sinned, his spirit died, he no longer was alive spiritually. He only had a body and soul. Man, in his own material state, is not human. No, you're not human. But the earth is human. No, it's not. Not the earth is human. The earth is fleshly. I'm only human, I'm not perfect. Oh, to be human is to be perfect. God made us human in order that we may fellowship with Him in the image of His own dear Son. Somebody's going to leave this building tonight. and say, well, the house doesn't believe in the deity of Jesus. Oh, yes, I do. Nobody believes in the deity of Christ more than I do. The difference in you and me, brother, is I believe that man is a whole lot higher than you have ever dreamed that man was supposed to be. And I want to speak this morning on the subject of only human. There are so many misconceptions about Christmas. This is not a Christmas sermon. But there are some misconceptions about Christmas. One of these, which is held by most Christian people, not because they choose to not believe the truth, but because they've never heard the truth. And I'm going to give you an elaboration this morning of a truth that we have occasionally visited on Wednesday nights. What I want to say is this, Jesus did not become human in Bethlehem. Now listen carefully. Jesus did not become human in Bethlehem. He became flesh in Bethlehem. Jesus always was possessed with a human nature. Let me say it again. Jesus, the second listed person in the Godhead, was always possessed with a human nature. Are you saying that Jesus was like we are? No, we were made like He was. You said you mean that Jesus was like us, like Adam. No, Adam was made like Him. You see, Jesus always was and has a human nature. Now don't you say I believe that Jesus is not the Son of God. He is the very God of God's incarnation. But the portion of the Godhead from eternity was possessed with a nature, lack the nature of humanity. And there always was a second person in the Godhead who was humanity and God in the same personality. Human nature did not begin with Adam. It existed forever in the eternal Christ. The Bible says, Jesus Christ, the same, but yesterday and today and forever. Now then, that means that whatever He was in 33 years on earth, He was before. Jesus Christ, He was flesh on earth, but in His personality, In his nature, he was humanity. He was, he is humanity. He was humanity and he shall always be humanity. A man can be, and I hate to use this word but I'm going to use it, a man can be maneuvered. Why? Because man was made human and God can be maneuvered. You take, you check sometimes, read all the prayers of the Old Testament. And you find out how, I've said this so often, our Bible studies on prayer, but you find out how that the Old Testament saints, they knew God so well, they maneuvered with God. Why then, they all started off, they said, Thou the great God of Jacob, Thou the God of the creation, Thou the God that made the stars, and the Lord God in heaven, I think he said, that's me, ha ha ha. And three, well you know God's that way. Cause if I made stars, that's the way I'd be. Ah, what blessed fellowship that the Son and the Father had. And then one day the Father said, Son, we've enjoyed each other all these millenniums and three-thirty. Son, I am going to make a whole bunch of people just like you. Because I've enjoyed that. Thank you. And so God decides to make a whole race of people like Jesus. And God makes a little Jesus. But the Jesus is next. Now, it's one thing, it's one thing, that when God made us, He had in mind our being like Jesus. That's what He had in mind. God had in mind. See, it still comes out, people, though. It still does that. My mama was the best paper doll cutter in the whole world, boy. I tell you all, just when she could cut out sandcloth, paper dolls, and mama's a champion paper doll cutter. And, uh, she'd take one little piece of paper and fold it several times and bring out a whole bunch of little, little, little, little guys holding hands with each other. Bothered feeling guys holding hands with each other. But, my mama got it. She folded it. And did you know, that's exactly what God the Father did, man. God the Father said, I love my son. I love the fellowship we've had. And God said, I am going to make a whole race of people like Jesus. So I may have fellowship with millions and millions of people. And so what happened is this. God made Jesus. I'm sorry, made man in the image of Jesus. And Jesus was human. And then God made a race, and that race was human like Jesus was human. And in due time, this man with type, Jesus, was copied and incorporated as a race. Now that copy of Jesus' sin, and man fell. Then Christ, who is what He was forever," get this, I said, Christ, who is what He was forever, came and brought the pattern from which we remain, set it aside, and began to copy to show us what we were meant to be. Now you say, are you having this Message tonight, because you hate Jack Isles? No. I'll tell you why I couldn't help but preach this message, and that is, did you hear all the amens? Amening, that heresy? Well, I say again, there are thousands of preachers across America amening heresy. I'll say what I said at the beginning of the message, and of course, as he was speaking, and we wanted to give you long portions So you can see it was no split of the tongue. I hate to do what we have to do tonight. But if we say we shouldn't do it, then we're saying Martin Luther shouldn't have done what he did. And down the line. I'd like for you to turn in your Bibles to some passages. Matthew 12, 33-37. I'm not going to comment on Dr. Heil's messages and things he said that much, except through the Scripture. But Matthew wrote in Matthew 12, 33, "...Either make the tree good, and his fruit good, or make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt. For the tree is known by his fruit. O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." You hear that? Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give an account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Why fight corrupt doctrine? 1 Timothy 3-6 says, "...if any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to his goodness, he is proud." And it goes on and says, "...from such withdraw thyself." Why warn people against wrong doctrine? 2 Timothy 2.16, "...but shun profane and vain babbling, for they will increase unto moron godliness." Do you understand what we're trying to say? If somebody doesn't stand up, and I'm not trying to say I'm the only one, But if preachers don't stand up and say it's wrong, then it's just going to spread and spread and spread. Over in 2 Corinthians 11, verses 2-4 and 13-17, again, I guess I'll start with verse 3, But I fear, lest by any means the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your mind should be corrupted from the simplicity which is in Christ." This is a simple gospel. Did that sound simple that you listened to? I saw your faces kind of squinting up and saying, I don't understand it. I guess you wouldn't understand it. If you have a Bible that's founded and grounded in the Word of God, you wouldn't understand it at all. But the Bible goes on here and says, "...for if he that preaches another Jesus..." You see that? As he that cometh preaches another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves to the apostles of Christ." Huh? Is that Bible? Should we not apply it to ourselves? What's the Bible given to us for? Now again, without much comment, I want to read, rather than having it put on tape because it's kind of garbly and it's hard for you to hear it, but I want to read just portions of some of these sermons. And I want to stress something, they are not taken out of context. You'll be able to tell by the title of the message that it's not taken out of context. This message is called, The Helpless God. It was preached May 26, 1985. And he said, this is Dr. Hiles, but God is also helpless in doing His work without man. You cannot do God's work without God, and God cannot do His work without man. Either element left to itself will fail. Humanity is helpless without deity, and deity is helpless in the work of redemption without humanity. That's false. That's wrong. That's anti-Bible. He goes on and says, that's the reason that in the Trinity there has always been a God-man. Jesus did not become the God-man when He came to earth. He's always been a God-man. There has always been a member of the deity who was the God-man. Not sinful flesh, but God-man. He goes on. Now listen to this. And again, you might feel that I'm using the word blasphemous loosely, but listen to this. If I were God's pastor, I would remind Him of His need of man in doing His work. I'm your pastor. I remind you of your need of God. But if I were God's pastor, I would say, now dear God, this is going to ruin me all over the nation. I wish it would. I am already ruined all over this building." Then he says, but I say, now God, remember, you need man. My Bible says you could raise servants up from the rocks. Here's another sermon. Thank you, Adam. It was in the morning that he preached this message. I got these tapes. I just asked somebody that received Dr. Howell's tapes every week. I asked him to send me a couple dozen tapes, and this is what I got. I mean... I mean... Listen to this. Thank you, Adam. The theme is thanking Adam for sinning. You got it? Say you're wearing glasses, yeah. I can't see with them, and I can't see without them. One of our favorite pastimes is railing on Adam for getting us into this mess that we've inherited. "'Twis he," say we, "'described us of the image of God.'" "'Twis he! who deprived us of the favor of God. T'was He, Adam, who deprived us of true righteousness. T'was He, Adam, who deprived us of holiness and virtue. T'was He, Adam, who has given us pride, malice, hatred, and evil passions, along with pain, sickness, a host of unholy tempers." Are you listening? That's what he says. Now listen to him. God knew that the evil resulting from the former was not as much as the good resulting from the latter. God knew that man would gain more than he would lose because of his sin. Let that sink in. Thank you, Adam, for bringing sin upon us. Thank you, Adam, for adultery. Thank you, Adam, for homosexuality. Thank you, Adam, for murder. Thank you, Adam, for rape. Thank you, Adam. My Bible doesn't teach that. Next one, I'll just name the names. Backsliding is a necessary part to spiritual growth. This one points out that God makes you sin for good. Believe me, that's what it teaches. God makes you sin for good because if you continued without sinning, you'd get too prideful. Here's another title, The Bad Backslider is No Worse Than the Good Backslider. Now, his sermons make light of sin. Let me just read some areas out of this sermon called The Bad Backslider is No Worse Than the Good Backslider. And you think, you think about what he's saying. You think about the ramifications. Backsliding does not depend on how much liquor you're drinking. Your backsliding depends on one thing, Are you actively doing the thing you were made to do? Now, you may not understand what's wrong with that, but what he's saying there again is, if you backslide, the only problem is that you're not soul winning. Understand? Now, I'll go into it further. I'm not pulling that out of context. In other words, if you're soul winning, then go out and backslide. Listen. Listen. Whether the doctor is sleeping in the next room or is out in the tavern doesn't matter. He's not doing any good for the patient. You see the theme? The bad backslider is not measured by what he does that is wrong, but what he doesn't do that is right. Do you get the theme? It doesn't matter if you're drunk, it doesn't matter about adultery, just so you're not soul winning. The worst thing about reading a Playboy magazine is the fact that you're not reading this book. Hmm? His sermons continually make light of sin. The one in deep sin is no further than the one with a cold heart. Now what he's saying is if you have a cold heart, go on and go in deep sin. You wonder why there's so much debauchery? If you have been in a tavern, now listen, if you have been in a tavern and living like an animal, God is just as close to you as He is to the one who didn't pray last night. Now, you can say I'm pulling it out of context, but what he's saying is, if you didn't pray last night, go get drunk. God will be just as close to you. That's not Bible. It's not Bible at all. October 87, led by the Holy Spirit to be tempted of the devil. May 88, God's army only uses wounded soldiers. The idea there is that everybody's wounded. You know, I remember none of this is taken out of Sumner's paper, but I remember something that was said in Sumner's paper about the fact that Dr. Hiles was talking to some woman that was a girl who had a baby out of wedlock and said something about, I hope sometime she'll be a Sunday school teacher. And then he said, oh, you're taken back by that? Aren't we all that way? Huh? And this sermon here about God's army only using wounded soldiers lifts up a girl that's pregnant because now she can help others that get pregnant out of wedlock. Lifts up a preacher that's ruined his church because now he can help others that ruin their churches. Now, it's not all 100% false, but the idea that's woven throughout all these sermons is take a light view of sin. The Bible says if a man can't take care of his own home, how can he take care of the Church of God? And how is a guy better fit to help a guy who's fallen because he's fallen? Don't tell me that. The Bible doesn't teach that. I remember listening to a sermon on weight. And again, the basic idea is correct. That God lets things come into your life to make you stronger. Make you stronger. And just like I weight lift and I work out with dumbbells. And if I just work out with the same amount all the time, I'll not get stronger. But if I work out with larger weights, then I'll become stronger. The truth is there. And he went in to talk about St. Mrs. Kelly and her illness and being tied to a wheelchair and how this has made Bob Kelly and his wife stronger. And there's truth in that. I mean, that's a fact. I believe that. But Dr. Howes, who doesn't name names even all the way back then, talked about Wally Beebe and his son who was a drug addict and burned his house down. You see, sometime you'll name names So indirectly, you don't look too bad. And he said that his son going bad like that was a weight and it was good and it was a sense of God. That's not true. And then he went on about a preacher friend of his who came to him and said, Dr. Howells, my daughter had a baby on a wedlock. My daughter has sinned and I need to leave the ministry. He said, what should I do? And Dr. Howells said, What you need to do is just get up Sunday morning and shave and shower and put the odorant on, put your pants on, get in the pulpit and preach! A year later, he said, the same preacher came and said, my second daughter ashamed me and came down and had a baby out of wedlock. What should I do? Now here's a man who says nobody's on his staff that's ever committed adultery. Then why in the world does he preach it? Can you answer that? Why does he say that a preacher can do it? Why does he tell a guy to just get up? You should just shave and shower and get up and preach. Is it just a weight? Is it just a weight? It's not a weight. I can show you in Dr. Heil's book on how to rear children when he said, when a pastor's child goes bad, he is not fit to be in the pulpit and he disqualifies himself from the pulpit. Look it up. Look it up. The last sermon he preached here, he was speaking about Dave. Not by name, but everybody that knew what was going on knew he was speaking about Dave. And he's talking about his mother crocheting and how he'd sit on the floor and how ugly it would look. But how his mother then would pick him up and put him in her lap and how beautiful it looked. And he went on, this was the end of the sermon, the sermon he preached all over America. Someday Jesus is going to take me and God is going to put me in His lap, and all this that is going on with me will look beautiful. Everybody who knew what was going on knew what he was talking about, and the idea was, it's beautiful, all things work together for good. That's twisting the Scripture. The sermon that I believe illustrates Dr. Heil's life view of sin the most, though, is a sermon that's called, How to Increase God's Patience. How to Increase God's Patience. Now, I'm going to read some lengthy areas that we've transcribed off that tape. You listen closely to this. Some people committed the same sin that David did and didn't get up. God didn't use them again. Now, follow me carefully. You never heard probably exactly what I'm going to say tonight. David committed murder and was used again. Some people in the Bible committed murder and were not used again. David committed adultery and was used again. Many people in the Bible committed adultery and were never used again. in the Bible committed the same sin and were used again. Now, what was the difference? Why would one man commit adultery and be used again and another same sin not use the God again? Now, he's going to give us the formula on how to commit adultery and be used to God. That's exactly what he's going to do. I'm going to tell you why. God used Samson where he did not use others who did the same thing Samson did because of one word, consecration. Now, I think that's laughable. I told myself that I wasn't going to comment on this because I don't want to get my comics mixed up with what he's saying. But if there's anything that would not describe Samson, it would be consecration. Now, you tell me what Samson's known for in the Bible. Who did he run with? Come on, say it. The world, but in particular. Come on. Women, whores, prostitutes. Now, I want you to say it real loud. Let's call them whores, if you don't mind using the word. Real loud, what was his... Let's use the word adultery. What was Samson's sin? Over and over and over again, loud. Adultery. Adultery. That's the sin, right? Now, keep that in mind. Now, he stumbled and fell. But he always got back up. He went at it wildly. I guess he did. But he went at it. He went at it willfully, but he went at it. He went at it often waveringly, but nevertheless he went at it. Samson always knew that he belonged to God. Now listen closely. Samson was valuable to God. It's like God can't get along with some of us. I'll tell you what, I know God can get along without me. God can get along without anybody. Samson was valuable to God. Samson was so dedicated to God that when he made some stupid mistake. Now, what was his sin? Some stupid mistake. Now, this does make me mad. God said, I need the fella too much to put him on the shelf. He's doing too much good for one little bad thing to cause him to forfeit his chance to serve me. What did he do? One little bad thing. Now you understand how Dr. Jack Hiles perverts the Scripture. You understand why we have to stand up and say, hey! I again was talking to a big shot. He said, I don't believe in this idea that you go up the stream to find the fault. I do. You see a muddy stream, you got a problem up that stream. And when you see adultery and fornication and sick sin all the way throughout the area over there, there's a problem. And the problem is that sin is thought of as being small. Again, some stupid mistake, adultery. Just keep on going. I need him too much. One little bad thing, adultery. Now, here he really gets going. He's making a statement. He says, statement one is, and you've got to listen to this closely, God's degree of patience with you when you stumble is determined by how fast you were running. He says it again, God's degree of patience with you when you stumble is determined by how fast you were running. Trash. Statement number two, your chance at a second chance will depend on what you did with your first chance. He repeats it again. Your chance at a second chance depends on what you did with your first chance. He goes on. In our school, we have a system of demerits. But we also have merits. And God has demerits, and God has merits. Catholicism. Merits and demerits. You see, if you want to go have a fling with some woman, you just, I don't know, I wonder how many souls you have to win. 10 souls? 20 souls? 100 souls? I mean, you just want to go have a good time? You just say, here's my 100 souls, Lord. I'm going to go have a fling. I'll be back in a little while. Wow. You wonder why preachers are falling into adultery all over America? Jack Hiles would never get up and say, it's okay to commit adultery. Never! He'd preach against adultery. But in this subtle way, he's teaching people all over America. And again, if you could have heard this sermon that I'm reading here was preached in Denver, Colorado, before a house full of preachers. And if you could have heard the preacher shout, Amen. Something's wrong. Listen, now you better know what you better do is take out some stumbling insurance. And stumbling insurance is this. You better be worth enough to God where you get enough merits built up so that when you stumble, the merits will not overbalance the merits. Never taught me that in theology. Never did. You teach that? I'm saying Samson was so dedicated to God I never saw Samson as being so dedicated. He was a judge, and God used him, but I never saw him as being so dedicated. Samson was so dedicated to God that God gave him so many merits, when some demerits came, he had a bonus of merits left over, and God used him again. Heresy. God looks down and says, It's sort of strange, but Gabriel, go check his invitation on Sunday morning and see how it's going. Check out a soul winner. Check how hard he works. Check his Bible study. And God looks down and says, the fellow's doing so much good, I'll overlook the few blunders he makes. God looks down and says, oh my soul. And God says, I think I'll kill him. And about that time, he gets up and preaches a sermon on hell and has 200 people saved. And God says, hold it a minute. Wait a minute. Let him finish that sermon. Then he says, you know, folks, you do the same thing. That's the problem with Jachaus. He equates himself with God too much. Maybe we would do the same thing, but God wouldn't. As simple as that. God wouldn't. The God of the Bible would not. Galatians 1, 6-9, I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ to another gospel. I marvel how independent Baptist preachers can be moved so easily to another gospel and defend this. The majority of people in America are defending We are the hate-mongers. We are the heretics. We are the fringe lunatics. The only thing I can say is they must have been eaten up by another gospel. Which is not another, but there be some that trouble you and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, that means Jack Hiles, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so we say again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you that we have received, let him be accursed. Do you mean Jack Hiles? Yeah. You say you hate him? No. I mean it. I'm not just saying it. My heart goes out to him. I'm sick about this. Nothing as terrible has happened in my lifetime. Probably nothing as terrible has happened in this century. I think we'd have to go way back to see a better victory by Satan than what Satan has gotten here. Why expose, you ask? Why? Because the fundamental movement is being taken by the devil. You see, a lot of people are leaving. You hear the core campaign or whatever it's called, the conference? Now, believe me, there's a couple of my friends that's heading that thing up. But they're leading fundamentalists into the Southern Baptist camp, into the neo-evangelical camp. Now, one thing I want to warn you of, just because he's wrong doesn't mean that the independent Baptist movement's wrong. Just because he's wrong doesn't mean Jerry Falwell's right. Understand that. This is the thing that scares me. Everybody's saying, whoa, we're going to go to MacArthur. By the thousands, independent Baptists are going the MacArthur route. They're going to this core thing because they believe in prayer and the power of the Holy Spirit. Independent Baptists have always believed in prayer and the power of the Holy Spirit. Just because Jack Hiles doesn't, we don't have to leave. I guess maybe that's one of the main reasons as I prepared this, I prepared this to warn my people. But as I prepared it more and more, I said, somebody's got to shout and scream and say, come on back, don't leave the ship. God's still the captain. We don't have to leave. Someone's got to speak up. Well, people all of a sudden are saying we're against standards because Jack Hiles preached it and Dave Hiles went, man, that means standard's bad. No, the Bible teaches standards. Don't turn your back on fundamentalism. Again, I say churches are being tore up. Somebody has to stand up and say, don't tear them up. Don't rip them up. Dr. Jack Hiles has sent a response to the biblical evangelist's article. He sent two responses, in fact. First one was four pages. And if you saw that, it was hilarious. It was written for somebody who was a follower that wouldn't read the article. And believe me, thousands of people won't read the article. They have that idea, I'm not part of the problem, I'm not part of the solution, I'm not going to read it, don't talk to me. Don't talk to me! Come on. Well, he sent this out, and it made it sound like Dr. Sumner was attacking his wife, and Dr. Sumner was attacking his sister, and Dr... No. No. And in there, he defends his family. Now, I understand, again, in here he defends... this is just one portion of it that shows the mentality. He defends Dave Hiles. Again, you have to understand that Dave Hiles has ruined the lives of probably hundreds of women across America, dozens I know of in this area. Babies, pictures with nudes, beats up his wife, leaves his children, goes and shacks up. Did you hear that? Pictures with nudes, babies, shacked up. I mean, I can't say in public what he did. Raunchy! Here's his defense. You see, it's the old idea of, let's just pretend everything's okay. Our son Dave lives in Hammond, and Mrs. Hiles and I love him very much. That makes him good. He and his wife and three children are very dear to us. In fact, I'm interrupting the dictation of this letter for a few minutes to take Dave out for a bite to eat. Dave is faithful to the services of our church, and he and I spend a lot of time talking about spiritual things. He's my buddy, my son, and I love the guy. That has nothing to do with the fact that he's a whoremonger. He says he's living here in Hammond with his wife and kids, but he doesn't say that's the woman he shacked up with. Doesn't say his other wife and kids are elsewhere. Doesn't say that one of their kids is illegitimate. Now, I'm not saying to pick on every little person, but I'm saying that's a big issue in America. And that's the way he answered it. If you think it doesn't didn't happen, then everything's OK. Just ignore it. It's the big lie. You read the articles in the paper, you read the articles and listen to the news about China. China took machine guns and just machine gunned people down. Some people say to the thousands. Just indiscriminately shot people, killed people in the crowds, and thousands and thousands wounded. They took their tanks and ran over defenseless students and old people. They ran over them, they put them in reverse and backed over them again and ground them down, put it in forward and ground them in again, came with their end loaders, picked them up and dumped them in trucks and hauled them away. And then got on national TV and said, we didn't do anything. Now that's exactly what's being done right here. It's called the big lie. The big lie. Now, here's a second response. He saw that he needed more of a response, so he got a second response. And I can only touch on a couple of the things. One accusation is, that there was a door between his office and Jenny Nischick's office. Okay? And... I mean, people have walked through that door. I mean, people have seen that door. The door was there. Okay? Do you understand? One very, very reputable lady who's... I guess maybe I shouldn't go into it, but whose parents are still there and so forth and work there. Has said she walked through the door. Others have seen the door and draw sketches of the door. The door was there. The door was there for years. I can't say I saw it, but again, you know, this all fits in like a puzzle. Here's his answer. There is no access between our offices. Well, let me say the door was boarded up a year ago. There is no access between our offices, and she doesn't even come into my office to ask me a question. You see how he answers it? The accusation wasn't, is there a door now? But the accusation was, there was a door. So very easily he says, there's no door now. Fine. Well, believe me, I'd patch that door up too. Let me read this one a little bit longer. This is Dr. Hyles again, writing this. Sumner also says that he's aware of two other college faculty members guilty of adultery. It's amazing how he states things of fact when one person told me, a deacon told me, a former deacon told me, I cannot prove his statement true or false by the way, neither can he, but I am not aware if it ever had been done. And then in bold print, If it could be proved that any of our college faculty members are guilty of adultery, they would be dismissed immediately. The same is true for any student. It's a lie. Have them call me up. I'll give them the name of a college teacher, faculty member, administrator that told me he committed adultery with one of the students, and he was caught. And the student was shipped and he was moved up. Dr. Hiles knows of that and knows of many other ones. What about the deacon that I'm talking about whose wife said, Oh, not again. He's always doing that. Yes, I go to Dr. Hiles. He doesn't do anything. What about the director of the mission, you see? Well, what about this? If he says that he wouldn't keep it again, I go back and I'm just trying to reason with you. If a faculty member should not be in the faculty if they commit adultery, then why does Jack Hiles go around the country covering up for preachers who are guilty of adultery? His very lifestyle goes against what he's saying here. There's nobody in America that would deny that Jack Hiles goes around the country trying to get adulterous preachers back in the pulpit. Here's another one. Mr. Sumner says that on Wednesday night, I made the statement, all men are mental homosexuals. I did not make that statement. That's an untruth. I do not believe all men are homosexuals. I want you to understand how he does things. Maybe he didn't say all men are homosexuals, but you go get the tapes of pastor school, the pastor school before last. And he got up and he taught that men want to be loved and treated by their wife as a man loves and treats. others, and that it's mental homosexuality. Now, I wasn't here, but one of our assistant pastors was there and heard him say that. And by the dozens, preachers were coming here. They always come here on the way home. We gain a lot of students. And they're coming back saying, you wouldn't believe what Dr. Hiles was teaching. He's teaching that all men are mental homosexuals and everybody was joking about it. Maybe he is, but I'm not. I've got a book here. Right in his book, Dr. Jack Hiles, he talks about different personalities, and he goes into exactly that idea and says, you may call it mental homosexuality. Now, what I'm trying to say is he may be able to say, I didn't say it with exactly those words, but he's a liar. I'm saying that everything that I know, he's vipnistic, have been accusing him. Now listen to this. He's been accusing him of immorality of some sort, of wrong dealing with his wife for years. Vic Nischick has been a deacon all that time. Vic Nischick has been the song leader all that time. And now in defense in this sheet here, Dr. Heil says that Vic Nischick is a whoremonger. Now tell me this. Why didn't he say it before? Why was he deacon? Why was he a song leader? Some place else he said he was a homosexual. Usually that doesn't go together very well. Do you understand what I'm saying? And I say again, if this were Billy Graham, we'd be going crazy. If this was a Catholic church, we'd be screaming from the church top. If this were MacArthur, man, we'd be writing exposes all over the place and warning people. The Bible tells us... I guess I didn't hit that one. Turn with me to the book of Acts. The Bible tells me, as a pastor, Chapter 20, verse 28. Talk to me as a pastor. Take heed, therefore, unto yourselves and to all the flock over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock, also of your own. You hear that? Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch and remember that by the space of three years I cease not to warn everyone night and day with tears. What's he saying? He's saying that it's the job of the pastor to watch for people that are wolves in sheep's clothing that will even come up among themselves. I'm saying we need to warn about people within our midst even more than we need to warn about the Catholic Church, even more than we have to warn about the Methodists, more than we have to warn against Billy Graham. I'm saying if there's anything we need to warn against, it's this right here. Now again, preachers will say, why do you do it? Because the Bible says I need to do it. However, I'm through, basically. But we're dealing with mind control. Blind loyalty. We're dealing with a cultic type situation. One staff member got up in chapel and preached a whole message. I give myself to Jack Isles. I give my eyes, I give my mouth, I give my hands. Don't give yourself to me. Give yourself to God. Jack Hiles brags about how that if he would call up, and I believe this statement, I believe this statement, if he were to call up from Michigan and tell his staff to kill themselves and commit suicide, they'd do it one after another. I believe that. I believe it. Remind you of anybody? Jack Hiles makes statements, if I fall, fundamentalism falls. Fundamentalism won't fall unless God wants it to fall. Let me say something. We will be attacked. If you think the Post Tribune was bad, you wait. Dr. Hiles teaches that if I were to talk about this over a cup of coffee with a preacher friend, that's worse than adultery. You don't talk about things like this. You don't talk Pope. But I'll tell you what, this subject had... I mean, I wrestled over preaching this thing. I in the flesh didn't want to preach this thing. But it had to be preached. This subject had to be addressed. Now, I don't want you to make this your topic of conversation. That's not what God wants either. I don't want you to fight with others outside. I didn't give you this information to fight. I gave you this information so you knew it happened, so when people come at you, at least you know, at least you know where you're standing. You ought not to be happy about this. You might say, oh boy, it ought to break your heart. I mean that. It ought to break your heart. You ought to be sad. Nothing. Nothing. I can't think of anything in fundamentalism that could be worse than what we're talking about right here. Don't judge others. Dr. Hudson, for instance, has the right to make his own decision. I've talked to Dr. Hudson. He will defend Dr. Hiles. All I can say is, I knew things and I stood behind Dr. Hiles for years also. Don't you get on your high horse and knock everybody that doesn't agree with you. Especially as laymen, you don't have a place for that. I have pastor friends that disagree with me. They're still my friend. Understand? They're still my friend. 2 John, verse 8 reads, look to yourselves. Look to yourselves. That we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Verse 9, Whosoever transgresses and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house. Neither bid him God's speed, for he that biddeth him God's speed is a partaker of his evil deeds. One scripture after another, after another, after another, after another tells us what we need to do. And tonight, as sad as it is, I believe we did what God wanted us to do. I don't know what will happen. Like I say, we've lost two families that have been in this church for 15, 18 years. students out of the college, in particular preachers' children. And I don't know what will happen, but I know we did what we should do. And I don't believe in that Pentecostal theory that when you serve God, everything is happy, happy, happy, happy. We might suffer some persecution over this thing. All I say is we better dig in and take the place of those that are gone. I want to ask you something. I've had it about as rough as I could have it the last couple of months. Not especially just over this. But I want to ask you something. Be faithful. When we make announcements about work night, be faithful. Be faithful to the church services. Man, you go slipping out because you want to get an early start to go on vacation. That hurts. It hurts. Be faithful. You know what has made this church? You know what's made this church? Is that we don't just preach it, but every person in that choir, every person in that choir lives a separated life. Every usher. You see? Every Sunday school teacher. Every assistant Sunday school teacher. Every bus worker. I remember we had an evangelist. Remember that evangelist that stood over here in this third and said, I want the workers to come over here? And all the people just went over there? Do you understand what I'm saying? We're a working church. And every person, I'm not saying they're perfect, but every person is required to go soul winning and we check on it. So that's what's made our church. When we have an offering deficit, we dig in. When we have a need of building, we build. And I'm asking you, we can take things from the outside and believe me, I'm going to catch it. Believe me, I'm going to catch it. But as I've said, when the Post Tribune attacked us, as I said when the welfare attacked us, as I said when the police departments attacked us, nobody will get us from the outside. The only thing you'll ever hurt us is from the inside. As I look out, I don't see anybody that's been here at least a year that I'd ever think would leave. The two that left didn't surprise me in the slightest. Two families. I wouldn't expect anybody else to leave. Don't let them get to you. Don't let them get to you. I expect God to bless us, just like He's always blessed us in the past, but there's always a battle before the blessing. So what I'm saying is, suck it up. And do everything you can. Be faithful. Be where you ought to be. Do what you ought to do. Keep your life clean. Because Satan's going to attack. I believe as much as he's ever attacked before. Let's stand and pray.