You Here it is. Oh, he's checking his hair and makeup over there in the monitor over here. Getting ready, getting ready. Hey, we're live. Yes, we are. All right. Guys, welcome. Welcome once again to Gospelicious Radio. This is episode 131. Amen. I'm Adam. This is Tim. We're just a couple of brothers who love Jesus. Yes, we do. And we just want to spread that gospelicious word. Not a mean, I mean, I was just gonna say people In other words know what I mean know what I mean? No, I mean, it's a gospelicious day Tim, how are you? I'm doing great. It's getting, you know, it's a little muggy out, you know, and a little warm. We're going to have to do something up here in Gospelicious Studio. I forget how muggy it gets. I'm going to have to get an AC or something like that or something up in here for us. Yeah, something that... Of course, it doesn't help that I have my hot coffee as well. Literally, you know, I can see the heat ripples coming off of it. I know, coming off of it. Distorting space-time. I know. You know hottest day of the year hot coffee in hand. That's right. You just hot hot coffee. That's right. Might as well be like the anger from Inside out your head just basically on fire. Oh, yeah, that's right Maybe I'll take a screenshot right now And I'll Photoshop the fire on your head We'll see if I have time for that Let's see, that was timestamp 150, so there you go. Alright, yes, there we go, yes. Do that later. Yeah, amen. Nah, man, nah, but how are you? I'm alright, I'm good, I'm good. Yeah. I'm good. Yeah, that's all, I'm good. You're just good. That's all. That's it. The end. That's it, the end. You're good, you know, nah. You having a gospelicious week so far? Yes, yes, it's weird. It's weird because, you know, with Youth Ministry over for the summer, there's almost just like there's a piece of me missing well yeah it's weird it's a weird feeling to not meet on wednesdays and well it's funny too with with wednesdays we're doing something for for those you know who are local we're doing something a little different last normally it's i've gone through different iterations of summer like Wednesday night midweek ministry, and again, those who are local, you guys know this. During the year, of course, Adam leads our Olympian program, Kids Club Olympian program. Then we have Teen Club, of course, for our middle school, high school, and then we have a Ladies Bible Study, and then I lead basically a discipleship class prayer meeting kind of thing. all of those other ministries kind of close out at the beginning of June, mid-June, and sometimes though, most of the time, I keep going with Wednesday night. Most of the time I'll either keep prayer meeting going, or I'll continue with the discipleship, but this year I decided not to. I've done it before. I mean, this isn't new. I think two I think it was two summers ago, I think I decided not to do it, and instead we decided just to do like particular prayer meetings for things like Vacation Bible School and other ministries as we go, and so I decided to do that this year for a number of different reasons, and I gotta admit, last night I was sitting, you know, we were recording this on a Thursday, and it was Wednesday night, and it felt very strange. I felt very strange sitting at home on a Wednesday night. It's really weird. Obviously the work never ends. In fact, summer is one of the busiest times in ministry. Like you said, with Olympians and kids and youth groups over, it's really shifting to VBS mode now. Which we have an awesome VBS program, by the way. Not that it's not always awesome, but this year it's awesome. Well, I always like to say the next one is the best one. The next one is always the best. You know what I mean? This is the best one yet. And I truly actually believe that for this one. I've always believed it, really. Maybe except for the COVID year. Because you can only do so much. Although that was super creative. That had to be really cool though. Kept it going and you also had, correct me if I'm wrong, but you guys had kids like around the country doing our Vacation Bible School program. Yeah, I think we had one as far west as Michigan. Right. There might even have been one up in, was there one in Alaska? I think there was one in Alaska. I think there was. That was awesome. But being a YouTube-only one because of lockdown, I was kind of forced into that, but it ended up being really fun. It was fun, and that was a superhero year. It was. That was really one of the first iterations of, again, for those of you who know, I mean, we mentioned it before, but Adam writes our own curriculum for our church. All original, baby. All original for our church. A lot of that kinda, but that was the first year that you did that. That was the very, and then we, then I think we went back to AIG the following year. For the theme, but I wrote the curriculum. Oh yeah, for Mystery Island, right? Yep. Yeah, that's right. I ended up writing that one too, I think. I did, or did I? I might have used the theme, but didn't use the curriculum. The curriculum itself, yeah, that's right. And that was the year Matt dressed up like the parrot, remember? Yeah. Yeah, that was great. And you were Captain Jack, that was right. Yeah, I was like a Jack Sparrow wannabe. Overweight Jack Sparrow. The pirate. And then and then and then I think it was a year after was the first like full-fledged VBS Which was the space adventure that was galaxy adventure. That was the first custom custom. That's all from scratch well other than here's a faith, but the first like live one yeah, that was fun and I And we're already planning 2026 already. The theme is a secret. It is a secret. We're not going to share. All will be revealed in due time. That's right. You'll have to take part in Vacation Bible School 2025 to find out what 2026 is about. We may have. the next couple as well. We have a few in the hopper. We're working on things. You have to plan these things ahead because you have to be able to think and prepare. It really is a year-long thing. There are things you do obviously in the last few months is really where the rubber meets the road. But really it's once you end like that last night, I'm already thinking about what we're going to do next year. How we're going to improve, what we're going to do. Things that we needed to do differently, do better, and then really I would say late fall, January is where it really starts to kick in. I'm always thinking about what the curriculum is going to be, what the theme is going to be, how that all rolls in together, and how many kids we're going to have. I'm praying, our VBS has grown, over the years in a pretty steady rate. We started out with about, what, 20, I want to say, when we first started? 25? Yeah, 20, 25 kids. With Ocean Commotion back in 2016, summer of 2016. This will be our 10th one that we've done together. That's right. That's pretty awesome. But we're already looking at probably close to 100 kids. Oh, yeah. We already got a lot signed up. By the way, if you have children and you or if you know of some kids in your local, here in Connecticut, in the area, you can go to eastfordbaptist.com, and there is a big, giant ad right there, right on the front page for our Vacation Bibles. Just click on it, register your kids, send that link to other people, and And yeah, I know we gotta plug that ministry, but it's... Have to, have to. It's a huge ministry for us. I know that it gets bigger and bigger every year, or the whole church transforms into whatever theme we're doing. It's awesome. It's a week long of just, of madness. But at the same time, it's so cool because really, what you and I have tried to do, and Matt, I don't want to... Oh yeah, Matt too, yeah, yeah, yeah. The three of us together have really tried to keep the gospel at the forefront of what we're doing. You know, I think a lot of times in ministries like this with VBS, when you're looking at an event-focused thing, an evangelistic event, and that's what I consider VBS to be, an evangelistic event, that's the core of it. But that's the key though, right? If it's going to be an evangelistic event, it can't be just fun and games. That's part of it. but the core has to be the gospel. It's got to be the teaching, it's got to be the truth of God's Word, that's got to be the centerpiece of what you're doing all week. And I think part of the reason why we write our own curriculum and why we pick the theme particularly for... because the problem is that when you have... and it's nothing against churches, I mean most churches, they don't have a professional writer, You know what I mean? They don't have the resources or time to do that. So there's nothing wrong with that, but one of the problems that you have with vacation Bible school curriculum is that you're kind of at the mercy of the curriculum writers. And this isn't a knock on AIG, but I'm not a huge fan of their 2026 theme. That's the question, right? What if you don't like the theme that's coming out? Then what? Then what do you do? Then you're either forced to use an older one or look elsewhere. But what if there are no good options? Yeah, and that's the issue. That's where we were. And so we just said to ourselves, why don't we just make our own option? And we can make it what we want. It's more work. What was worse, too, is that there's certain curriculums, too, that get into that go in vogue and become like the thing for all the churches in the area so like AIG was the one that everybody was doing including ourselves sure and so like and they did good stuff they do excellent i love AIG i think they're great answers in genesis they're excellent i would recommend them um they're great but uh but like when because a lot of times i was gonna like everything well then you also have like the kids that go to multiple vbs's and so it's like there's only so much I wanted to create a unique experience where there were also, like you said, I think the straw that broke the camel's back, as it were, was when one year we had another church right down the road who did the same exact VBS during the same exact week. uh earlier in the day but it was like okay yeah right this is i mean that was it what are we what are we doing here it's like you know we you know i won't get into it but i know it's it was it was one of those things where frustrating yeah it was frustrating but at the same time i was like it was it was a confirmation for me Yeah, this is what we have to do. That's the way the Lord works. Okay, now we know. We know for sure now. This way, there's no way that this will be repeated. Unless someone asks to do our stuff, which is cool. Go ahead and do it. If someone sees our VBS and wants to do it their own with that theme, I'll give them all the resources I got. That's it. Go for brother, you know, but that that was kind of the the impetus of that or the genesis of that Yeah, and it's worked out ever since it's been a lot of work, but it's been really fun to Though, you know, you know, you and I are pretty much on the same page when it comes to the you know The fun of the the creativeness of it Being able to create all that and then not only that but honor God with what hopefully is a a God honoring curriculum that really focuses on Christ and especially with this year, we're doing a Christmas theme. So, you know, I was able to create a curriculum that focuses on the, you know, the Christmas story and the different aspects of it and what our reaction to that should be and how we are to worship Christ. And it all leads back to him. So, and then of course, it's a four part curriculum. And then on the fifth night, you kind of wrap it all up with the gospel message. It's kind of like, you know, the first four, kind of like the alley-oop for you to dunk the ball home on Friday. It's going to be a fun week. A fun year, it always is. And it's one of those things too. Christmas in July. And pastorally, just, you know, I started ministry as a youth pastor kind of reluctantly, but I found that it was something that I really enjoyed. And so it's like that one week that I get to really uh i i i stretch those youth pastor muscles to their furthest possible uh i can tell you love it i can tell you love it too i'm exhausted by the end of the week but this would be like go back to the pulpit but This would be like the worst for me. I see the joy in your eyes when you're serving. I would, you know, that's one of those things where it's like, oh, the pastor's priorities and all that. Dude, I would hate to take that from you. That would be like, I don't ever want to do that. It's one of these things. I think that it's good for kids. I think that pastors tend to get very, very stuffy. I think that they end up getting to this like, I'm more dignified than that kind of thing. What kind of message is that for kids though? It's not, and it actually makes the children more afraid, especially in your church, more afraid to approach you and intimidating you, and I don't ever want that. I was always... Listen, I love my pastor more than words can describe, but when I was a little boy, I was always kind of a little intimidated by him, you know what I mean? And, you know, grew to find, you know, just love him and have a good relationship with him, but I mean, I was always kind of intimidated because he was pastor, and, you know, and You know, but at the same time, it's like, that's why I've always been like, well, you know what, I want them to see me, you know, dressed up like a banana. You know, I want them to see me dressed up like Superman running around like a, you know, whatever. It shows them that you don't take yourself too seriously. We make this very clear during VBS that we take God's word very seriously, but we don't take ourselves too seriously. You can't have that air about you because really then at the end of the day you're just telling kids that you're That you're better than them or that you're above them somehow. You can't present both of those things at the same time. It conflicts. And I think that this is what's unique about our Vacation Bible School program in particular. Because most churches, the pastor is not involved, number one, with it, but I think also, number two, I think that men are usually not the ones leading the charge, okay? And we have me, you, and Matt are up there, and we are the main people, and we are the leaders and everything else, and I think that there's a lot to be said about that in the life of the church. I think it sets a good tone. I think that the energy that you exude to them, and I think also in thinking about it as an evangelistic outreach, of course, a lot of those kids that come, this is the only time of year that they come to church. This is the only time that they darken the doors. Maybe they'll come at a Christmas service or something like that, but for the most part, And so you got to think about that this is the only experience that they are going to have with church, and it's going to be a good one, Lord willing. You know what I mean? It'll be a good experience for them. Great memories. Right, and because chances are, it's like planting seeds. It's like literally scattering seeds in their hearts, because it's like, look, probably the next time as they get to be an adult, the next time that they'll be in a church, some of these unchurched kids will be at a funeral. And it's like, okay, you think about that, that's the only church experience that a lot of people have, besides maybe a wedding and a funeral. So it's not really like a joy, and no offense to weddings, but you know, they're fun, it depends on, but it's also, sometimes they're more of a drag, you know, not a drag, but I mean, like at the same time, have you ever gone to a wedding that you just, you kind of felt obligated to go to? I would say the majority of the ones that I've been to. Not because I didn't love the couple and not because I wasn't, you know, so like I'm saying that that's a church experience. I don't like wearing a tie. I don't like wearing a tie either, I can't stand it. I hate wearing a tie. I hate it, you know what I mean? I guess I'm in the right job for that. That's right, you know. I don't wear a tie often. But it's one of those things. So if you're out there and you're watching this episode, pray for our Vacation Bible School program. Yeah, coming up. A little over a month from now. A little over a month. There's a lot of little pieces that come together, and so we're doing that. But one thing that we've been praying about as well, and perhaps you're on the same page, is our world right now. Our world is always A lot of craziness in our world right now. And I want to say this, just preface where we're going to go with this. We're not going to go into politics. Our podcast is not a political podcast at all. If you saw the thumbnail and thought that we were going to talk politics, you're probably in the wrong spot. We don't do that. We may mention it, but we're not going to do a whole episode just on politics. At this point, I would say our politics are probably pretty clear to most people at this point. Just being transparent, we're definitely conservative, and I think that's what a biblical worldview is going to lead you towards. But I think that still, as just a human being, but as a Christian living in the world, uh... there's a lot going on right now and you know we you know at the past few years of course there's been uh... uh... the ukraine russia conflict uh... couple years ago we kind of more related to what we're gonna talk about today there was the uh... israel uh... hamas uh... slaughter that happened uh... was two years ago most two years ago we talked about that episode sixty one if you would like our reaction to that that was Yeah, that was 70 or so episodes ago. Yeah, actually exactly 70 episodes ago. Wow, because we're on 131 now, so 61. 61. Yeah, yeah, that's wild. That's crazy. It's amazing we've been doing this, but we kind of want to come back and revisit that idea of Israel just because this past week Israel has been in the news. What has happened is, let me just bring up just so that I can uh... just kind of get my actual factory here is on june thirteenth uh... of this past month israel uh... executed and and i'm getting this by the way i'm using uh... our best friend chad here to help me with this and so it's it's uh... it's one of the sick but executed massive preemptive strike on over one hundred iranian nuclear and military sites uh... was uh... entitled according to this operation rising lion yep and uh... the key facilities were in tehran uh... i can't i can't pronounce a lot of these but a lot of these high-ranking uh... you know places is it is ishfahan right there in natanz natanz you know were targeted uh... reported killing high-ranking uh... IRGC officials So basically, the goal, according to this, for Israel was to set back Iran's nuclear ambitions and cripple its command. Now, a lot of this does, I think, go back—I mean, this goes back to, you know, years and years i mean there's never been peace in the middle east now so a lot of this is rooted but uh... you know in this goes back a while yeah you know and so but there's also ties between iran and what happened a couple years ago with hamas uh... according to uh... you know certain sources sure uh... but so basically what it came down to is that on the thirteenth that israel attacked iran and that's that's big news because obviously uh... israel is one of our allies and uh... donald trump of course the president is uh... very much uh... supporter of the nation of israel and there's a lot of divide over that in our nation at this point uh... but uh... just kind of just talking about the united states uh... response of the facts of what's going on yeah donald trump uh... he's according to this it just again as i said before he supported israel he's voiced a strong support for israel's right to defend itself and quote prevent iran from going nuclear that's such a that's such a trump quote that's it Though that was the fear of Israel, and really a lot of countries over the Middle East, was Iran's almost imminent ability to go nuclear. That was the reason behind the attack, was to de-escalate that, because there was intelligence out there that says that they were pretty close to achieving that, which would have been a huge problem. Yeah, a huge problem for Israel, it's a huge problem for the world in many ways, because uh... you know quite frankly i mean uh... you know i mean iran is uh... is a dictatorship it's similar to north korea uh... it is uh... the there's and we were going to talk about this a little more is doctrine theology in these kind of things play into their the islamic you know mentality kind of plays into that so very dangerous situation obviously for the world and and so ayatollah yeah you know the ayatollah Ali Khamenei I believe so yeah I might be pronouncing that wrong yeah Ali Khamenei anyway So the thing is this, is like right now, as of today anyways, the U.S. of course has not, while Trump and others have voiced their support of Israel, we haven't gotten directly involved, okay? According to this, we have deployed additional Navy destroyers and missile defense systems in the region. They have intercepted Iranian drones and missiles headed for Israel. They've increased air patrols over the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf. But there is increased pressure from certain individuals in Congress and in other places for us to actually get involved with support of Israel and actually get into some semblance of a war in support of Israel against Iran. And that's kind of where the debate is today in terms of politics. and where this kind of comes in and again i don't want to get into all of that whole issue so much as much as one voice that uh... that kind of came out of all of this just right and this is where bleeds into the theology exactly which is what was what we're about so yeah so the other day you had on senator ted cruz of texas who's obviously republican uh... and he was uh... according to this uh... urging a a quote more aggressive u.s. stance to support Israel, invoking biblical and moral support for Israel. And so where this kind of came to a head was in an interview that Tucker Carlson, the former Fox News anchor, and now he kind of does his own thing now, right? Yeah, he's almost like his own Ben Shapiro-esque presence online, where he's sort of like a political commentator on his own YouTube channel now, I think. Am I correct in that? Yeah, I think he does. And again, don't necessarily support everything, any side, or any of these kind of things. But he did an interview with Ted Cruz where he basically invoked biblical, theological reasoning into why the United States should get into a war with Iran and join Israel side by side, okay? And where I want to go with this... So Cruz said that? Cruz did, in the interview with Carlson. As a matter of fact, let me read exactly what was said, and then we'll get into this, because I think it really is important to see how our theology, what we understand about the Bible, how that affects everything, how it does affect the world, how theology does matter. And I think specifically our our viewpoint on israel in this particular case and how does the christian deal with israel how do we define israel all these things so anyway so uh... in the interview uh... this is on june eighteenth tucker carlson show uh... carlson interviewing cruise uh... he uh... it did just kind of reading the the the transcript here from a tucker carlson says uh... to cruise i said i resolved to be the uh... I said that I resolved to be the, wait a minute, I just want to make sure, okay. I said that I resolved to be the leading defender of Israel and you said your driving motive, the reason you're in the Senate, was to defend Israel. This is Tucker saying this to Cruz. Cruz responds, let me tell you why. Carlson, and you know what, they got this backwards, didn't they? Did they get this backwards? Because I was looking at one of the transcripts on the signpost, so I take that back. What I just said was Carlson said that. That was actually Cruz. And so Cruz says, and the reason is twofold. Number one, as a Christian growing up in Sunday school, I was taught from the Bible those who bless Israel will be blessed, and those who curse Israel will be cursed. And from my perspective, I want to be on the blessing side of things. So Carlson says those who bless the government of Israel, and Cruz says those who bless Israel is what it says. uh... doesn't say that the government uh... say the government of it it says that the nation of israel so that's in the bible as a christian i believe that carlson responds and says where is that he says uh... cruz responds i i can find it for you i don't have the scripture off the top my mind uh... you pull it out of your phone and use it and then carlson says it's in genesis And so he says, and this is where he goes on to quote him, he says, you're quoting a Bible phrase that you don't have context for, and you don't know where it is in the Bible, but that's like your theology. I'm confused. What does that even mean? And so he kind of goes on from there. Actually, you know what? Oh, yeah. And then it goes in. He says, Carlson, I forgot that I had that. I was reading the wrong thing. But Carlson corrects him, cuts in in front of him, and says, it's in Genesis 12, 3, where God tells Abraham, I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you, I will curse you. And so this is where the clarification comes from Carlson. So you're quoting a Bible phrase. You don't have the context for it. You don't even know where it is in the Bible. But that's like your theology. I'm confused. What does that even mean? I'm a Christian, and I want to know what you're talking about. And Cruz responds, biblically, we are commanded to support Israel, okay? And so, interesting. He goes on from there. I'm sorry, I did this kind of in several piecemeals. That's why I was a little confused going back up through it. He says, Biblically, we're commanded to support Israel. And then Carlson responds, and this is where I want to end. He says, but isn't it dangerous to build American foreign policy on a single verse, especially when that verse isn't interpreted the same way by everyone? and so that's kind of where where i wanna where i want and uh... because is obviously a real tenuous back-and-forth between uh... cruise and uh... carlson but i think that what carlson brings out is a really really important thing And that is this, and we've talked about it a lot here on Gospelicious, it's how we shouldn't cherry-pick verses in order to build our theology, okay? Because theology has consequences. And in this particular case, you have men who are, like Ted Cruz, who are taking one particular verse of scripture, and like, taking it out of its context, taking Genesis 12.3, and by the way, it doesn't just say that there, it says it in other passages like Numbers, and there's another passage in Jeremiah that says, those who bless Israel will be blessed, those who curse Israel will be cursed. But removing that from their Old Testament contexts, and making a modern-day application for it that sets the tone for, in this particular case, foreign policy that has the potential to kill a lot of people. And so I bring that up because, number one, as a lesson to show us that our theology matters. How we interpret the Bible matters. But on a more specific note, I want to talk today about how we define, specifically in this particular case, what is Israel. Matter of fact, I've got to look this up again, because actually I believe Tucker brought this up. He says, oh yeah, he says, biblically we're commanded to support Israel, Cruz says, and then Tucker Carlson pushes back and he says, define Israel. That's important. He says, are you kidding? This is a majority Christian country, define Israel. Could you not know what Israel is? uh... that would be that would be a country questions he says currently it's the modern nation run by bb netanyahu uh... any and then carlson pushes back and says and you believe genesis twelve three clearly applies to the modern political entity okay and so uh... That's a good question. That's a very, very good question on Carlson's part. I don't know. What are your thoughts? I've been talking a lot. The idea of a delineation between the people, the ethnicity of Israel, and the government of Israel, that's what's at play here, right? 100%. I would agree. Are we trying to apply a modern definition to an ancient text? Is that kind of the crux of the confusion here? I think so. Is it a prescriptive narrative versus a prescriptive thing? Or descriptive versus a prescriptive? i think so uh... in a way i'd also think Because there's some nuance here, I don't think. There is. And I think that it really kind of gets into the question about how do we define Israel is really the key. I really believe that that's the key. Because obviously, like you say, we read the Bible, Cruz invoked the scriptures, so we need to get our definition of what Israel is from the Bible itself. And obviously, we read the Old Testament, he cited the Genesis passage, Israel obviously was a nation, an Old Testament nation that God had established through Abraham and God worked through, chose them as his as uh... his people uh... to work through and to uh... communicate his word and communicate his will for the world uh... but uh... as you get into the new testament uh... you find that uh... that that promise that was made to abraham uh... going back in establishment uh... what of what the nation that he would raise from him would be uh... was always meant to be not a national people but as spiritual people. When God made the promise to Abraham in Genesis 12, which is what Cruz cites, that promise was not was not to be fulfilled ultimately in a physical people here on earth. The physical people here on earth were but a shadow of the eternal, the spiritual people of God throughout time. And how do we know this? And this is kind of where I want to get into, that definition of what Israel actually is, and I think of how it kind of defines and guides us in our theology. I bring this back because we've got to kind of define where Cruz is coming from. Cruz is coming from a perspective of what I would say is a more dispensational kind of understanding of the scriptures, and therefore a more dispensational understanding of what the nation of Israel actually is. Now by that, what do we mean? We've talked about dispensationalism before. Dispensationalism is basically the idea of cutting the Bible up into uh... it depends on which dispensationalist you talk to but different parts and saying this part applies to one person this part applies to another person and that leads to some interesting eschatological understandings in the future and our understanding in the book of revelation and what's going to happen in the future uh... and so basically what it comes down to just to kind of give a a summation of what dispensationalism is is that dispensationalists because they cut the bible up into so many different parts they will uh... they they see a clear delineation between the old testament people of god israel and the new testament people of god the church okay that they are two very different things that god has made two very different promises to to both groups And that, as a result of that, depending upon your viewpoint in the end time schedule, that one day God is going to stop working with the Church, and that's going to, well, the next thing on that particular eschatological framework is the pre-tribulational rapture, which is probably where Cruz is coming from. The church is, and the people of God, which is not ethnically based, it's just, you know, the church is comprised of all believers, is then going to be replaced again with the nation of Israel, where God is going to work primarily through them in the future as they put their faith in Christ and God basically ushers in the remainder of the end times, okay? The seven-year tribulation period, and then eventually the thousand-year reign of Christ in eternity, and all of these kind of things. It's rooted in an idea that the Old Testament covenant and the promises that were made to the nation in particular were not fulfilled in the Old Testament, and that they still are yet to have been fulfilled, and so that they will be fulfilled somehow, someway in the future. Meaning, what were the promises for Old Testament Israel? Well, land, seed, and blessing. Okay, that's basically what you could bring it down to, land, seed, and blessing. Okay, an actual piece of property in the Middle East, That sliver of land right there by the Mediterranean, right? In between Europe and Asia and Africa, right there, a very particular place. The actual seed, the tribes of Israel, the actual race, Okay, and you know the the blessing. Okay, which which we see in the the prosperity of that particular nation becoming a world power. All right. The idea is is that is that that God will always have a uh... an actual physical king on the throne of day are on the throne of david you know which ultimately will be jesus in that particular viewpoint but on but it uh... might where i'm glad that's a lot of technical you know you know whatever but basically what it comes down to is that they make that strong delineation between the old testament people dot israel and the church focusing so much on the race of israel and uh... and that by the way was exacerbated after the first world war when uh... the state of israel the current state which we see today was established in the middle east creating a lot of other problems previous to that they had not had their own country for ever since the time of uh... Solomon, essentially, and the evil kings, the divided kingdoms, and all of that. And so what a lot of modern theologians on the dispensationalist mindset end up creating in their mind is that they create a theology based upon current events, based upon that current state of Israel, and so they read a lot of the Scripture in light of that, which gets into, as I said before, how we define what Israel is. Is it that, when the Bible talks about Israel, like Carlson brought out, is it that current state that we see over in the Middle East, theologically speaking now, or is it something else? How do you define that? And like you kind of brought out before, is it the ethnicity? Is it the actual political power that's over there? How do you define that? And I think that really the Bible, and how you answer that according to Scripture, will guide and direct not just your understanding of the gospel, and not just your understanding of what God's people are throughout time, but also how it affects world powers and decisions. I don't know. I know I'm going on. I know I'm pontificating today. So, no, you're explaining kind of the background to this because the question then remains, is a Christian commanded to unequivocally support the nation of Israel? The current modern iteration. Are we called to support every single thing that they do? Well, that's a really good question. That really is the question. We're talking about fallible people here. What if they do something wrong. What if they do something we don't agree with? And again, we're not making any political statements on whether or not... I'm saying what if. What if they do something that's... What if Netanyahu, Benjamin Netanyahu, what if he makes a political decision that maybe is incorrect or something that may be unbiblical or sinful? What do we do then? What do we do with that? That's a tremendous question, because according to Cruz's theology, what would the answer be? Agree with it. You just agree with it? You go with it? Or else you're sinning. You support Israel, or you're cursed, one or the other, right? Ripping that right out of its particular context, unfortunately, which is what Carlson, I think, rightly points out. And so to answer your question, No, obviously not. As Christians, we don't support any nation for what they do right or wrong, you know what I mean? Only as much as it is guided by the text of Scripture, and I would say that that includes the current state of Israel. And the proof of that, we were talking about this before offline, but I think the proof of that is you find it right in the text of Scripture, because even ancient Israel should we, when I read through first and second Kings, should I support everything that every one of those kings of Israel did? No. Absolutely not, right? They were put there for that purpose. Right. To show us the wrongness of it, you know? Right. And by and large, Israel today, the modern state of Israel is by large a secular state. Yeah. I mean like from what I understand, I mean from people, I've never been over there or understand it, but I mean like they're very, very uh... secular okay like a there's a lot of different branches of judaism and for for a lot of jews it's it's it's nothing more than just uh... uh... an ethnicity it's it we're not talking about uh... you know those who are you know strictly biblical jews who are you know that they attend synagogue in a you know they actually try to prag you know that you that you got the historic city got all of these different ones uh... for many jews out there today it's just uh... It's more of an ethnic identity and nothing more. And so the state itself is a very secular kind of environment, at least from what I've been told. And so you have to ask yourself, do we support them in every single facet of what they do, everything that they do, just by purely the fact that they are Jewish? that my obligation, biblically, according to Cruz, is to support everything that they do? Absolutely not, okay? I mean, no. Do you think he's trying to create a simple answer to a complicated question? Yeah, what do you mean by that? In other words, is he trying to make an over-generalized blanket statement on a question that demands a more nuanced answer? I think so, but I also think it's a very pandering answer as well. That's true, that's a good point. Because here's the thing, is that I get into all of that dispensational theology, and this idea that we should just support Israel, because that is very prevalent in American churches today, and has been for the last 60 years, alright? you know, the idea of, and why is that? Well, it's rooted in, well, I think it's rooted in a lot of different things, okay? And this is where understanding our history and theology and where it comes from is so important, right? I think that dispensational premillennialism and its viewpoint of Israel itself and this idea of supporting Israel was largely rooted in response to World War II. because obviously we saw the atrocities that happened to the Jewish people during World War II with the Holocaust and the world was obviously shaken by that. Yeah. Understandably so. Right. One of the main reasons, I mean like... One of the worst atrocities of all time. Right. And so I think that there is this strong push and has been since the 1940s in our theology to not be anti-Semitic. Okay? Regardless of the fact that Jewish people, and this might sound controversial, they are not like our long-lost cousins. Theologically speaking, they reject Jesus Christ at the heart of their doctrine. I had this verse up. This came up. This is Matthew 21, I believe. And Jesus flatly told them, you have rejected the cornerstone. And that this kingdom is going to be given to others. I had this brought up when you were talking about that, only because Jesus himself said, you've rejected me. And if you've rejected me, you've rejected my father. And that's been the case ever since then. Rejecting the Messiah, rejecting Jesus, it means that their role has changed. And by the way, every person, regardless of whether or not they were Jewish by race or not, that rejects Jesus Christ, spiritually speaking, is in the same boat. But as far as the entity known as Israel in and of itself, because they rejected the cornerstone, like you said, because they rejected Christ, regardless of their adherence to the Old Testament scriptures, they are not saved. Right. That's what I was about to say, because I'm sure that there are people in Israel that would consider themselves ethnically Jewish, that are ethnically Jewish, not consider themselves, if they are, they are. Yeah, they're Jews. But also proclaim Jesus. Oh, sure. Because that's the key. Right. So just because you're Jewish doesn't grant you automatic entry into heaven. Just because you're an Israeli citizen of the government does not make you a child of God. And what you brought up right there is so funny because you start talking about this kind of thing with a lot of American, more conservative, you start saying that, and you ask them that question right up front, does being a Jew automatically guarantee salvation for you? And the answers to that that you get are because of this infiltration of this hardcore dispensational viewpoint. It's interesting. And this idea that there is a future for national Israel, and how that all plays out, the answers are interesting. Because, I mean, like I've talked with people before, And I've had everybody who's, I've had everything on the perspective, you know what I mean? I've had people actually say, yes, yes, Jewish people are, just by virtue, they are God's chosen people. Which is, I like to say, you've made the classic mistake. Or maybe from Princess Bride, you've made one of the classic blunders! Blunders, that's right. Because that's, sorry. No, no, no, that's great. That's literally, the Bible literally addresses that attitude. It does. It's Galatians, right? It's Galatians, it's in Galatians, and the one that came to mind, I think it was chapter four, I think so, yeah, I have to look it up, but the one that pops into my mind is John chapter one, verse one, where it says that you become children of God not by blood, okay? It says it right there, but yeah, it's Galatians chapter four. Is it four? Yeah. uh... to do to do to do that i should have this one up i'm sorry i don't know it's all it's all good this is this is what we want the uh... please visit him to three uh... uh... yeah it's by a it's it's chapter three uh... so as a chapter in yeah i know it's good he says uh... it is picking up here he says i'd give an expecting example brothers uh... and pre-shoot this is what it was this is the past i was going to start reading i know it'll get into it No one annuls it or adds to it once it's been ratified. This is chapter 3, verse 15. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. So you're talking about Israel. You're talking about the ethnic people that came from Abraham, right? It doesn't say to the offsprings, referring to many, but referring to one, and to your offspring who is Christ. It's an interesting way to phrase it, but ultimately who was the true Israel is Christ, right, ultimately. And he says, this is what I mean. The law which came 430 years afterwards does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God so as to make the promise void. If the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise, talking about salvation, right? But God gave it to Abraham by promise. And then he talks about the law, and he goes down in here, he says, I'm just gonna jump down a few verses, I'm gonna jump down to verse 22. But the scripture imprisoned everything under sin so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. And so then, the law was our guardian until Christ came in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under the guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, sons of God, through faith. For as many as you were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither, verse 28, Jew nor Greek, There is neither slave nor free. There is no longer male or female, for you are all one in Jesus Christ. And if you are Christ, and this is the kicker, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise. Yeah, that's right there. So who are the true heirs of Abraham? It's people, anyone, regardless of their race, who come to Christ by faith. Those are the true people of God who inherit the promise of Abraham. What was the promise to Abraham? It was salvation. It was an eternal kingdom. It was being a part of a people who, it's like the sand on the seashore and the stars of heaven, that those are his offspring. Now, was it just referring to just those who came from his bloodline? No, obviously not. That's not. And, uh, matter of fact, jumping into this, um, did you have anything to add? I'm sorry, but while I'm bringing up, uh, something else, yeah. So I'm going to actually bring it up on the screen here because I had it prepared beforehand, but I, and I think I may have covered this before, but the kicker is Romans chapter nine. All right. Um, and so I think I, uh, brought that up making sure. All right. Yeah. So Romans chapter nine, let me just make sure that I can bring this up and that it will. All right. There it is. Beautiful. So the question in Romans 9, and I probably covered this the last time we were talking about the subject of the Jews and their relationship with, you know, salvation and the promises made and whatnot. But the context here, of course, you have chapter 8, where Paul just gets done with the golden chain of redemption, saying, you know, whom he justified, he also, you know, glorified, and who shall separate us from the love of God, you know what I mean, with neither death nor life, nor things to come, all of these kind of things, nothing shall separate us from the love of God and Christ Jesus, right? So now he gets into, and I'll just pick up in verse 1, a common question, especially at that particular time. He says, I'm speaking the truth in Christ. This is chapter 9, verse 1. I'm not lying. My conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I wish I could, for I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. Who are they? Verse 4. They are Israelites. And to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. And then he says in verse six, but it is not as though the word of God has failed. And why would he bring that up? Well, because obviously, by and large, the Israelites, his kinsmen according to the flesh, the race of Israel, had rejected who? They rejected the cornerstone. They rejected Christ, like you said. And so the question is, if the people of God, the Old Testament people of God, who had all of these amazing things, the adoption, the covenant, the promises, all of these things, they rejected their Messiah? Did the Word of God fail? That's a good question. And he obviously says no, that's not the case. Why? Continue in verse six. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his children. Speaking of physical offspring. But he says, through Isaac shall your offspring be named. And what was Isaac? Isaac was the child of Abraham's old age that only could have been produced, how? Spiritually. Miraculously. Okay, yes, Isaac was a physical offspring, but God was the one who caused Isaac's life when he was 100 years old or whatever, you know? Through Isaac shall your offspring be named. And so it says this, this means it's not the children of the flesh. Isaac was not a child of the flesh as much as he was, but he wasn't. He was a spiritual offspring. It's not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as the offspring. for this is what the promise said, about this time next year I will return and Sarah shall have a son. Speaking about Isaac's miraculous birth. Yeah, right? God prophesied that and gave that, and then he uses another example, and not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, same deal. Our forefather Isaac. Though they were not yet born, and had done neither good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works, but because of him who calls, she was told, the older shall serve the younger, as it is written, Jacob I have loved, Esau I have hated. And of course we get into this issue of election, but really as it relates to Israel, okay, this is the context, is that salvation, what Paul's point here is, is that salvation was never ever granted based upon anything else but the grace of God. Okay? It was all always, since the beginning of time, as a result of God's choice. and that had nothing to do with individuals' race. Salvation was not promised to individuals, the physical offspring of Abraham. That's not what made you one of his offspring. No, God had to do a work in your heart. God needed to perform that transformative work that only the gospel, in our case, can bring about in order for you to be one of Father Abraham's many sons. right which is amazing to me uh... about five that that song you know it i know i brought it up before father abraham and many times earlier do you guys do you guys do that one of those what's old it's very rare if we do right you know it's a good one though yeah and it's it's interesting because uh... just making sure that that's that's nothing crazy but uh... So, Father Abraham and many sons. Many sons said, Father Abraham, I am one of them and so are you, so let's all praise the Lord, right? Right arm, left arm, right foot, left foot, right? Now, it's a silly kid's song, but... It's rich theological truth, though. That's a deep song when you think about it, that I am one of Father Abraham's many sons, and how am I one of Father Abraham? Because Father Abraham was a man of faith. And to be a son of Abraham, to inherit the same promise that Abraham was promised to his people, to become a part of that promise, you have to come to him the same way that Abraham came to God, and that is by faith alone. Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. So salvation was never ever based upon race, ever. It was always based upon the grace of God. And that's really what the remainder of Romans 9 goes on to talk about. You know, we talk about, I brought it up many a times, it's the classic chapter if you ever want to be shown that election and predestination is true, of course, we have the verse 14. It is, 100%. What shall we say then, verse 14? Is there injustice on God's part? No. No. For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. And so it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who has mercy. So it's God's... And by the way, I would add race to blood. Um, he says, but God who has mercy for the scripture says for this very purpose, uh, to Pharaoh, he says for this very purpose, I will raise you up, uh, that I might show my power in you, that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. And so he has mercy on whomever he wills and he hardens whomever he wills. And you say, of course, why does he still find fault for who can resist his will? Of course, I love Paul here. This is, this was the verse that turned me into a Calvinist. All right. But who are you? Oh man, to answer back to God. That was what it was. That one right there. And the answer to that question is obviously, I'm nobody. Well, what does Molded say to the Molder? Why have you made me like this? No. Has the potter no right over the clay to make out of one lump, one vessel for honorable use and the other for dishonorable? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make his power known his power has endured with much patience vessels of wrath for destruction in order that to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy which he prepared beforehand even us whom he has called not from the jews only But also from who? The Gentiles. As indeed it says in Hosea, those who were not my people, I will call my people. And her who was not beloved, I will call my beloved. And in the very place where it was said to them, you are not my people, there they shall be called sons of the living God. And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel. Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved. For the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay. And as Isaiah predicted, if the Lord of hosts had not left us, we would be like Sodom and be like Gomorrah. And then he rounds it out with this, because again, we tend to focus so much on the election part that we forget that the context to this is dealing with God's relationship with Israel. What shall we say then, verse 30? The Gentiles, that the Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have obtained it, that is a righteousness that is by faith. But that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching the law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were by works, based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, the cornerstone, as it is written, Behold, I am laying in Zion, a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame. So the answer to the question is, is Israel, is this iteration of Israel today, does that mean that they are the physical Israel, the nation of Israel? Bibi Netanyahu, the nation. uh... is that is being used to be his nickname i think so i forget that i think it is i'd just i know it's benjamin but i don't have to be a idea short shorts i think it is i don't think so yeah you know place i can't like that in people who do you know it's not a good idea for the tool kind of a cool name you have a derailed no no no no it's good you know i mean but it's it's it's really sick so it's like no that the answer the question is no that the true israel those who come to christ by faith alone And now, does that mean that we don't sorrow for their salvation? You know, absolutely not. We want to see them get saved. But it answers a lot of questions, because, and I want to get into a little bit more here just in terms of the future of Israel and how we should view that from chapter 10 and 11, because he goes on from there, but I don't know how much time we have, but... Right, yeah, let me just... What do we got left for time here? Yeah, let me... It's blocking the... Yeah, I gotta go back over here. Sorry. Yeah, um... What do we got? Yeah, we're about an hour, so I... Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, so, um, which I just blanked us out, which I'm going to, uh... I'm gonna go back to the main camp. Sorry. There we go, yeah. I derailed you again. So, no, no, no, but, but, but, but the, the, kind of, because I know we're getting to the end here. I, and I know, by the way, I'm sorry that I kind of hijacked the whole episode, but... No, it was a lot of information. my point in all of this is this is that if we Israel, the actual nation of Israel over in the Middle East right now, in the way that Ted Cruz views it and tries to utilize the Bible outside of its particular context, outside of the greater context of how the Bible itself defines what Israel is, it leads to a lot of problems. In this particular case it can lead to war. It can lead to literal geopolitical instability. pausing for a moment does that mean that i don't think that uh... like we said at the beginning that with that the united states should not support them in the middle east well uh... that's really to be determined okay uh... iran is not a goods you know nation okay and uh... they create a lot of problems for the world and There's a lot of issues. But I think my point in all of this is that Cruz, and along with the Church, and those who have this kind of viewpoint of Israel, stop using the Bible to justify everything that Israel does. Because they are not the true Israel of God. And that's not an anti-Semitic statement. They are Israelites by blood. but they are not the true Israel of God, all right? The true Israel of God, the true chosen people of God throughout time, from the time of Abraham in the future, is God's elect. The people who come to him, and how do we know who the elect are? Well, we know it when they come to faith in Jesus Christ, right? And therefore, how does that play out into our eschatology and things like that? Well, that's for you to determine. But ultimately, I think that it really says a lot about especially with Romans 9 and 10 and 11, and I don't have time to get into it today, but maybe something to reconsider in terms of even your eschatology, that if your eschatology involves an understanding of what Israel is that is unbiblical, okay, that basically justifies, like we talked about before, everything and anything that the nation of Israel today does, when that's not how the Bible defines it. Maybe you need to think about your eschatology. Maybe you need to think about the end times a little bit more. As if it upholds the Israeli government as some sort of holy nation that can't do any wrong. Like an infallible country. That can't be the case. I think that a case could be made to support them in terms of political support. Oh, yeah, sure. Oh, we're not, yeah, we're not. Right, I think that, I'm not saying anything, this is purely theological now, okay? Yes. Because, and the reason why is because- Putting politics to the side. Because Cruz brought it up, and he happens to be a politician, but he brought up an important theological note that has effect. He's saying that we should go into war because the Bible says that we should support the nation of Israel, and that's an important question that you need to answer. We're dealing specifically with that. Right. So here's the thing, is what he's saying by implication, is that if I disagree with the United States getting into another war, with a foreign power. That I'm sinning. That, yeah, that I'm sinning. That we're gonna bring, and by virtue, bring curse upon the United States, which I've heard that come from dispensationalist preachers, too. And I think we gotta be very careful with that. I think we gotta be super careful with that. That's my, again. Well, there's a 30,000 foot overview for ya. I hijacked this whole episode. No, no, no, I asked you the questions. I asked you the questions. Listen, sometimes my job is to facilitate you. We should have an episode where I, for once, facilitate you, brother. No, this is a good episode. It's really interesting when it comes to stuff with Israel, because it's such a hot-button thing. Obviously, we don't agree with what Iran was doing. The whole Iran regime is completely evil. There's no other way to put it. The things that they do to their people, the threatening of the world. Whether it was right or not for Israel to preemptively bomb them, That's for you to determine. That's for you to decide. We can't really answer that question, but hopefully we brought some clarity to at least that Cruz and Tucker Carlson issue in that question. This is good stuff. Thank you. Thank you for that info. Praise God, brother. I think that ultimately, the beauty part about it is, and just kind of bringing some beauty to it as opposed to just whatever, is that as you study this subject of Israel out, what the beauty part about it is is that When you fully understand God's election, and that salvation is not based upon the law, it's not based upon your blood, it's based upon nothing but the grace of God, okay? It is humbling. It is precious. that I was adopted into the family of God by nothing but the blood of Jesus Christ, and by faith alone in Him through His grace. And that's the beauty, that I am one of... And by the way, that this wasn't like a plan B, that the Gentiles were not just like an inclusion later on. No. My salvation was planned before the foundation of the earth, and that when that promise was made to Abraham, all of those years ago was made to me. Father Abraham had many sons. Many sons had Father Abraham. I am one of them, and so are you. So let's all praise the Lord. Amen. Right arm. Left arm. Tie and bows. Left hand, right hand, tie a bow. Here we go. Guys, thank you so much. That was episode 131 of Gospelicious Radio. Thanks for joining us. We have a little YouTube channel here. Go ahead and subscribe to that if you haven't already. We're on Sermon Audio. Sermon Audio, of course, is the semi-exclusive home of Gospelicious Radio. Our audio version is there. If you're listening to that, then hey, guess what? You found it there. YouTube, Sermon Audio, those are our two outlets. Connect with us, engage with us. All the links you need to do that are in our link tree, which is in the description below. All our social media stuff is in there. We're on the Facebooks, we're on the TikToks, we're on the Instagrams, we're on all that stuff. All the links you need are in the description there. Our email is also in there, gospeliciousradio at gmail.com. Excuse me, find us there. Little frog in my throat there. Guys, we love you. At the end of the day, all we want to really do is share that gospelicious word. And not only that, we're gonna post as of this, as you're listening to this, we're also gonna have a social media thing. We're gonna post, I think. Yeah, a little giveaway. We got a little book giveaway here. Yeah, I know. This is Joel Beeky's family guidance series. It's called Family Worship. Yeah. So check out, we got a little book for you here. We're going to give this away to a lucky listener of the pod. Just check our socials for that. We'll probably do something like, you know, like and comment on this and we'll pick a random person. Yeah, we'll get it to you. Even if we have to mail it, we'll mail it out to you. But yeah, so we're giving away Family Worship by Joel Beeky. Joel Beeky, of course, prolific speaker, author. He's great. Tremendous. Loves them Puritans. He loves the Puritans. Yes, he does. He loves the King James Version, too. Yes, he does. Yes, he does. Amen, yeah. It's a great book, though. Amen. Check it out. From all of us here at Gospelicious Radio, have a gospelicious week. Yes, amen. We'll see you next time for Pastor Tim. Amen. Happy painting, and God bless, my friends. I've been Adam, and we'll see you in the next one. Take care. Bye. you