Watch the movie then, I mean, but that makes a lot of sense, you know, as far as, you know, I'm not saying that Jesus was a man, but they just took elements of him being immortal and elements of, you know, him already a man and put it together, and they exited it, they minus all the elements that make him man, you know, as far as all the sex that he had with Mary Magdalene. I'm sure he had at least two or three children, I hear. See, the thing is, You guys want to come closer just a little bit? Oh, we're recording now? Is it okay if we wanted to stop? No, I've just been there for a second. Yeah, if at any time you want me to stop, it's okay. No. You know, educational. But, you know, like, um, you know, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, all these religions, you know, they all, you know, come from the same thing. Because they all have the same principles. Yeah. The same principles. Same origins. Same origins. Or similar origins. Exactly, similar origins. And, you know, it's like, um, They, in some cases, try to explain, you know, the things that were going on around them that couldn't be explained at that time, you know, without science. I mean, how do you explain an exploding volcano when you don't have no science, no books, no... I mean, you can't. You know, that must be, you know, some, you know, power that's ready or not, you know. A biblical disaster. The sun, the moon, you know, changing. I mean, now we know, but back then they didn't know anything. Yeah, they're talking about maybe like the flood from Moses and things like that. Yeah. or the angel of death taking all the first steps. Yeah, it was like, what, how long ago that they actually thought the world was flat until... Evidently, 4 out of 10 people still believe that the sun revolves around the earth. So if you look at progression, as we know more, as technology improves, science can explain a lot of that stuff that wasn't you know, that could have been explained back then. But, you know, so although I don't necessarily agree with religion as far as like, you know, some of the radicals, the more, you know, Christian radicals, the Islamic radicals, you know, I do agree that they do have some group principles, you know, to live by. Okay, real quick, if I could ask you even, because you mentioned the distinction between radicals or the essence of Christianity, what would you guys say is the, what is Jesus' main message? We're not talking about like, you know, Christian fundamentalism today, but just... If we look at what Jesus did and what the Bible did are just two different things. Jesus was all about love and peace and wonderfulness, whereas the Bible When Peter stuck it together, or really when he started the religion, he was a pretty angry person. I mean, he even said, I don't know Jesus so he could live. I mean, who's going to do that and have problems? And even though at the end when he found the light, that was still part of him. It wasn't that he just became like, he morphed into a... this saint of a person. He still has the negative parts about him. So what is the message of Jesus? Jesus is about love. The Bible is not about love. The Bible is about control. About the control of the people. Yeah, the Bible is about control. Especially, you know, because back then the churches had the power. Catholicism, you know, Christianity back then, I mean, churches were big. When you say back then, what's my period? Any time between now and when the Bible was written? When was the Bible written? The Bible that I've been able to uncover. Because the stories happen. You've got the Old Testament, you've got the New Testament, things like that. when was it actually put into a book? I believe it was 200 years after the life of the event, the life of Jesus and the apostles. But it was a piece by piece, too. But as far as the KGB, the one that's the most popular now, the English translation, I mean, that was... 500,000 years ago around there. No, no. That was like 1600. That was 1600. English, yeah. If we're at 21 subtract 5, what would that be? But that's... We're going back to the math class. That's the Bible that everybody uses. But no, the Bible is different from what Jesus taught and preached. Jesus was about passion, love, compassion, and all that stuff. So was Gandhi, so was MLK, so was Luther, so was... A lot of people, you know, they were about passion. The Bible is creative. It's stories, just like mythology. A lot of creative stories, you know. The flood, you know, if you want to entertain your kid, you can read the flood. And the Bible is very controlling. Especially when she gets the New Testament, when she gets the different churches and the letters that went out, all this other stuff. Very controlling. I mean, it's almost like, you know, how government controls now. You know, you get people to believe certain things. You can make them break that bread. Let's go back on to what I'm hearing a lot is the distinction between the Bible and Jesus. I get that from messengers. So Jesus is, I guess, the essence of the Bible? No, Jesus. The main essence message is God. That's what I've been hearing from both of you. The essence of the religion is Jesus. and Jehovah, things like that, but that's not what really the Bible teaches. Yeah, I'm saying like, of Jesus himself. No, I don't think they intertwine quite exactly. No, I'm saying about Jesus himself, like, is he about love? Give that love understanding. Well, I think ultimately he's about love. I mean, but ultimately Martin Luther King was about peace and equality. But again, he was an adulterer as well. I'm surprised you know that. I'm surprised you know that. Let's put that in context. Jesus was about love and peace. And McCabe was about peace and equality. and you know and I'm sure Gandhi was about peace you know so yeah they were about peace but they were also man let's not forget that. There was more to them than just the one message that they gave. They were multifaceted like most people. They were men. Because you know what Jesus probably did not like the Jewish people the Jewish He probably had problems with them. He didn't hate them. He probably had differences with people. He did not like the Romans. Because I don't think anyone did at that point. The Romans liked the Romans. Yeah, the Romans liked the Romans. That's basically the way people live in themselves. Going back on that, do you guys believe there's a God out there? How do you believe in a God? I believe that there is a point. Now, people call that force God, people call that force Allah, people call that force the universe. Frieza from Dragon Ball Z, they do call that force. But the point is, I believe there is a relevant, significant, more powerful something out there. I'm not going to say being, because it might not be a being, you know? It could be a thorough energy, I don't know. But it's something. Consciousness or something? Yeah, it's something. Do you think that force or that God created the world in this course? I think there was definitely some Well, based on our understanding of it, that's sort of like the aim. We just talked about that. No, no, no, no. We agree that there was something that triggered something. Now, you know, what some of the Jews believe, they do believe in their God, but they don't believe their God, you know, interferes with their daily lives at all. Whether some Christians believe every single thing that happens is God's will. Some Jews, I think most Jews don't believe that at all. They believe in God, but this is the world, they do their thing, and you know. I tend to stray towards that belief, that there is something out there, but he has no effect on me. And if it does, then I don't know about it. I don't like to think of it in that kind of way. The interesting thing you guys mentioned is, even in the beginning, I know there's a lot of humor, LCB. But with that, also as well, what I hear is actually a lot of objections towards the Bible. the Bible. And actually a lot of the objection is moral objection. Where do you guys, where do you think right or wrong comes from? Who determines right or wrong? I know what you're going to do, you're probably going to try to tie that back into the Bible because mom was trying to do it to me last night. Oh well, this is true. The thing is, before all that was written, No, I guess if I could just say what I'm trying to go through. Let me just illustrate one thing to you about what my objection is. The reason why I brought that up is because, you know, we've been hearing you out for a few minutes about the various objections of Christianity. By the way, have you met Caleb before? No, I haven't. He's an angel. Let me answer one thing before we go too far. What my first objection is, I will do as I say, not as I do. Look at the crusades. Look at the inquisition. Look at the Salem witch trials. That's on a smaller level, I know. Let's go back on Elisa. I don't want to defend all of what people have ever done in America. Let's talk about what the Pope did. This is the guy at the top that has his backbone to Jesus himself. What should I do? Don't forget about Hitler. Let's just stick back to the Bible. The reason why I don't subscribe to the Pope, because when we do that, that's illogical to call an ad hominem. That's actually a strong man. It's, you know, I don't believe in the Pope. I'm not Catholic. I'm not old school Puritans, or I'm not even the Spanish Inquisition in the 1400s. I think the best thing is to stick with the Bible. Yeah, go ask your brother some questions. Yeah, so I guess my question, what I was trying to do when I asked the question is, I heard a lot of objection against Christianity because of moral problems. The more dilemmas you guys brought up for the last ten whatever minutes, I mean, even before we recorded. What is the basis of right and wrong? The reason why I ask that is because I think when we measure right and wrong, we always bring a standard of rule of loyalty. We always treat it like that. And obviously our morals probably contradict. Or not contradict, but we have different standards of rule of loyalty. But I want to go actually, because sometimes I feel whenever I sit on campus, Christian conversations, non-Christian, you see debates about homosexuality. One side is yelling Prop 8, the other side is yelling Prop 8 and stuff like that. I think a more fruitful discussion to add more light is actually ask, what is the foundation for even our morality? And even say, what is the basis? Is it intelligible and rational to begin with? So what is right or wrong, basically? What do you think right or wrong comes from God? I think right or wrong comes from God. Okay, well, we're not for the law. The thing we talked about, he made a very valuable point about A lot of people believe, especially in the Catholic and Christian community, that everything is brought by God. God gave us this shiny day. God gave us our shoes. God made me have that conversation with that woman. I thought it was crazy. God, we have willpower. Question you real quick. You're the second guy here. And you too. You too. Both of you. If we have willpower, then everything doesn't come down from God. Everything is our decision. I walk this way not because God let me, but because I wanted to. And I think that's one of the problems I have is that Again, the Bible is do as I say, not as I do. They say a lot of these things are all wonderful by God, but it's not about... What is right and wrong based upon? I guess that's where my question is. That's where they get the crux of the issue. I know, I know, but there is no answer to that. That's like the chicken and the egg. Because, I mean, you know, you and my mother and my uncle say, oh yeah, the Bible, God is truth, and that's it. That's where the bat stops. That's your exit. You don't need to go anywhere else. I would actually say, I'm going further than your mom and dad is going, is I'm actually going even further to say, what is the foundation for both of us to make that conversation rational? But see, that's the thing. I mean, who knows? At the beginning, you know, when, you know, when humans, you know, started, you know, evolving from, you know, eggs or whatever, you know, and all of a sudden, you know, they became a little bit more intelligent, and all of a sudden, killing that guy became wrong. I don't know. That's the foundation for something. You know, but just to say, oh, this is the foundation because something up there said that's that's almost like Mormonism you know Joseph Smith you know when he when he found you know I think even if we could by the way if you guys want email can email you guys this too I'll just load it on online for later just so that you know Even if we go back, I don't think I've ever said, just even in our conversation thus far, that thou shalt believe the Bible as a standard or else. I don't think my question was that. I think my question was more like, if not the Bible, then I think it is a fruitful conversation to say, what is the basis? We can't answer that because there's not enough, I mean, you have to go back really far. Gabriel, you have to go back really far. Honestly, I don't know. I mean, that's like me saying, well, I don't know what's out there, but I know it's out there. I don't know where morality came into. Christianity, that's a very great foundation. I mean, I grew up in a Christian home. America, you know, was founded in Christianity. So we know where our morals come from. But there's other religions, you know, that have the same compassion, you know, principles, you know, that could bring up a good person. Who knows where all of it actually started from? I mean, was there a single point where all of a sudden morals and all that stuff came from? Maybe. Was it Christianity? Definitely not. I can tell you that. That's the thing, I find it so interesting because I guess if we were to talk about this in logic, we would call this undercutting the heater, self-heating, because what it is is that we're saying Actually, what I'm trying to say is that you have no foundation to even say that the standard is wrong. There's no rational definition to it. Unless you want to be arbitrary. If we want to have a psychologist conversation, then you have to have the foundation. I'm not going psychological. I think it's the rational thing. Assuming we're trying to have a rational conversation, right? Unless you say no, then that defeats the whole point. Again, what he was portraying in his argument was There isn't really an answer to it because what he believes is right or wrong. That's one thing. What I'm trying to get to is that if we If we say we don't know what the foundation is, if we say that, if we really mean we don't know the foundation, then we can't say definitely it's not the Bible, like what we just said earlier. Do you see that? You're agnostic towards it, and then you made a claim of knowledge that it is not that. But when you do that, you pretty much just tell the other religions, Essentially, that's exactly what's happening. What I'm doing in philosophy is called internal critique. I'm just assuming, stepping into your world, assuming everything is true in your belief, your own belief is internally incoherent. But you're saying we don't know the cause of it, but then you make a truth claim, a knowledge claim, that it's definitely not Christianity as the foundation of morals. Again, I'm not right now even defending Christianity, or even making the claim I'm stepping towards that. Actually, I would not say no, because I've let you talk. I didn't say I suggested you there. But you suggested right or wrong is an individual thing. Is that what it is? I think it is. I think right and wrong is an individual thing. We sit there and it's like, why don't you say that? There's a larger morality to it. I think we're going to get to that point where, I was with Joseph, where he basically said, that's the promise and I'm going to take that over. You know, those people made that city, those people lived in that city, those people, you know, had their everyday lives and Joseph comes up and says, you know what? That's the promised land. God told me we're going to burn some ground and we're going to take that place for us. That's what the Bible teaches us. It really is doing the thing not as I do. I mean, you could say there's no basis for what I believe. I mean, just by me going to church for the many years I did as a child, just by me reading the book, just by me really going into what the history of it was, it's tough for me to sit there and say that there's anything really moral about the Bible. Outside that, it's a good way to maybe live a life on the small terms, but on the higher terms, there's a big problem. This is where I do feel, even in logic, even as you guys are taking classes here, Red herring or complex questions is a fallacy one. For instance, someone asked, when's the last time you guys beat your wife? Yeah, I know, I know. When's the last time I had a wife? Never? Yeah, exactly. You go back to the pre-deposition. I would actually say the Bible never taught Joseph Goh to kill everyone in the Promised Land and therefore we have to go do that. I don't think that's ever... But he did rape all the women. I would actually say, if that's the case, I would happily provide you the Bible. What about David and Bathsheba? What about David and Bathsheba? Where he's seeing her, taking her to her, oh, I want her. He's going to front lines so he can die. Yeah, if you read the scripture, the scripture actually, written by them, actually condemns him. Actually, as a matter of fact, Israel split in two because of that sin. I mean, I think the Bible captures sin as it is. It condemns him, but he was still, you know, the chosen one. I mean, in all sense of... the chosen one is, you know, yeah, well the kingdom split, but it's not like he was condemned to leprosy or, you know, it's not like, you know, he was turned to a pillar of salt like Lot's wife, you know? What about the bears? Let's go back to even with the morality thing, and that's what it comes down to, is you said the problem is that morality must be subjective, right? Otherwise, we have this absolute archaic and tyrannical force that is, you know, now if right or wrong is subjective, that is its own individual opinion, then you actually have no basis to even... you pulled your rug on yourself. Any of you guys know martial arts or anything like that? No, I don't. I joined the Marines, you know, there are a lot of guys that, you know, there's very few Asians in the Marines, and they always say, oh, you're Chino, you're Chinese, you must do, like, the hee-haw thing, right? No, I don't. Anyone can beat me up. I think it's funny, if, you know, if you guys were to do the whole hee-haw martial arts thing, I would have to say, in an argument against me, what ends up happening is you're pulling your own rug on yourself. Let me say one thing before you go farther. Let's talk about bears. Let's talk about children. Let's talk about bald heads. So if we talk about morality issues and some kids come up to this bald man and say, ah, you're bald. And what does God do? Bears to kill all the kids? Then don't talk about bald people. Let's have bears kill little kids. They don't get to learn their lessons. They get to become mulch at this point. They're a snack to a bear. That's some of the things that I see in the Bible. I mean, is the Bible totally just this immoral thing about let's control stupid people? I don't think it is. I think there are many facets to it, but I think the overall thing is that there are two different gods. Okay, let's actually live this out. You know, none of us are bald and all, so let's just live this out. Could I borrow your backpack just for a purpose of demonstration? Now, as a Christian, I believe stealing this is wrong because the Bible says thou shalt not kill. And by the way, you guys can run over and beat me up any day if I were to steal. Let's just say I took this and I like it a lot. I'm going to keep this and steal. That's cultural relativism. then morals become relative to the culture, by the way. So, but your friend here believes right and wrong as an individual opinion, yes? Sure. Yeah, well, my opinion shouldn't... But my opinion, as a, you know, Jibrel, let's just say I'm a kleptomaniac, right? You know what's a kleptomaniac? I believe this is appealing to life. It's my desire. I get joy from it. I don't think I'd like to impose a road you're going down. Yeah, no, actually, you don't have to vote. I mean, you're throwing in so many different variables. I mean, in the beginning, we were talking about Christianity, morals, I mean, you're throwing in kleptomania, you know? We're probably going to go back to, you know, cannibalism. That's cultural relativism. You reject cultural relativism? I do not. You do not. But you're protesting again. I'm not. No, no, no. I didn't say it was bad. In different aspects, okay? I mean, nobody's perfect. You're going down a road and you're going to try to spin it. And I know what you're trying to do. And, you know, I'm afraid I'm not that intelligent to put you down. Let me just say what he's doing. What he's doing, he's saying that he's... You're spinning. No, no, I know what he's saying. But what you're doing, you're trying to spin it. You're spinning. I'm not talking about what he said. I'm just saying what he's doing. I know, I know. He's spinning. If I can be clear, I'll be very public about what I'm trying to do. What I'm trying to do is demonstrate I think this is a real one, because I think we have to talk about the rationality of You're trying to make us dig our own graves and make us jump in it. That's what you're trying to do. Yeah, I'm doing that. The way you're arguing, there's no way to stop it, and there's no way to avoid it, but just say goodbye. You don't have to do that. You don't have to justify what you're saying. You can say bye, and next time we say hi. No, but you know what I mean? But continue, continue. If right or wrong is subjective, it's based upon individual feelings, then you have no basis to condemn that person as a bald guy or God. I do based on what I believe. Because like I said, if it's subjective, that means I look at something as that being wrong. A Republican might come back and say, you know what, that's right. Yeah, then you have no basis to say he's wrong. But the basis is my personal basis. I'm not going to answer that because I know what you're going to say. I know the question. But you know, I'll humor you. Vanilla. I like vanilla too. Oh no, I was not humoring. I like Häagen-Dazs ice cream. I like Häagen-Dazs ice cream. And you happen to like whatever, okay? This is a brand though, not a flavor. I just said what's your favorite ice cream. Now, if right or wrong is individual opinion, then we basically would collapse into nothing more than... But that's the thing. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying that I would not choose that notion. Because if you're saying that there's a right and wrong, the answer is a yes and a no. The problem is, everything is in the middle. So would you say then that the prophet and the kids that lost their life is not wrong? I think it is wrong. You see a contradiction to that? I think it is, but... You say my opinion is not wrong. Because the children are... Based on what everyone says is that we have real bad luck. I love that when you said that. What do you say is the trap? The trap is because the kids were being yelled at by the little kids. No, you're onto something, Gabriel. You're onto something. Listen, you know... I think you've captured it. When you were reacting, I think you've captured it. You know, Gabriel, you've captured it beautifully. I think what you're reacting to is that right or wrong cannot be an individual opinion. Because if it is, then it's nothing more than when you say you like peanut butter ice cream and I like hot ganache or whatever else. That's your opinion. But it's not a right or wrong answer. Yeah, there's no right or wrong answer. Which means that you undercut yourself. You're undercutting Defeater. You have no basis to say that the guy... You have no basis to say it's wrong. Again, the basis is my personal opinion. My personal opinion is for the sake of the conversation. As a social mania, it's okay to fail. Yeah, and that may be right for you. The right answer for me at that point was run after you and jump you. That's the right answer for me. See, the thing is, I don't think there are no any... You want to go with the business. There are no wrong answers. There's just regret at the end. I mean, we can take that too. And at the end of the day, there is no right, there is no wrong, there is just grace. Gabriel, you heard what he said earlier, like he'll just jump you up. And I know it's for a conversation, but anytime you want me to have this back, I'll give it back to you. Because I believe there's a good God. Even though if you don't see it, I should never steal from you. That's my basis. You can make fun of it, but I believe there's a good God. Now, going to God, if you kind of appeal to a might makes right, like, oh, okay, this individual thing, the way we resolve it is, if I were to walk away, then you'd jump me and beat me up pretty badly, and I'd probably lose. Now, do you think the basis in right or wrong is always might makes right, Gabriel? Do you believe that? Just strength alone makes it right. I don't believe that. You don't believe that's the case? Might make sense. I'm just trying to see if there's some underlying question there. You're talking about definite answers versus situational answers. Now, definite is, this is a piece of wood, that's definite, right? It doesn't fly. See, there is no definite answer. It's me feeling this bag ever wrong, in this case. That's who I am as a guy that, you know... Because even if you can justify it to yourself, if another person sees it as... So, let me get this straight. You think there is no such thing as definite knowledge? No. That's the same thing as the moralities. Now I'm going to come down to morality. If that's the case, then you have no basis to definitely argue rationally to get this back. Do you realize? Because this belongs to me. And even though you may hold it, you do not belong to me. I know I am, but see, the problem I'm having in this conversation now... Is it true that your backpack really belongs to you? Yeah, why would you even dispute that? Now my personal opinion is this is now mine. That's a kleptomaniac, not a Jimmy Lee. I bet you I can say my name's in there somewhere. Is your name in there somewhere? Can we move on from this? Is it true that the name in there is your name? What you're trying to do is you're trying to say definite versus not definite. Now, Gabriel, I want to move on from the conversation. The reason why is because this is the irrationality of just subjectivism. I'm happy to. Tonight, if you don't say you're a Christian, I'm okay with that. I just want to put at least rocks in our shoes to think about. I think if you want to convert people, then you cannot have a straight, this is what it is. Because unless you've seen him, which no one has, that look hasn't even seen him. There is no way to know. Do you believe that the only way to know God is to see him? What you believe is not facts. Now we're going to get to the reality. Belief is never fact. Belief is I think it is, therefore it is so. The sky is blue because I believe it is. The ground is hard because it is. But I can tell you right now, this ground is not hard. It's not falling. What is fact? Back to something that can be proven scientifically. What is the criteria? By testing it. By saying this is something that is, this is something that is, this is something that is true. That's how you do it. The scientific method is two steps. is, one, it's empirical. That is, you know, you verify it by your five senses, and also you repeat it, it's demonstratable again and again. So by that definition, I would actually say, is that true? Let's just say, what are you really trying to do here other than to confuse the situation and... Fell into the trap, man, see? That's why I stopped talking, because he pulled you into the trap. You know, I don't have no hidden agenda. The reason, what I'm trying to do, don't you, But the Bible, what does the Bible teach you? Isn't that the hidden agenda? No, my agenda is straight up clean. I want people at least to think about the basis for why they rule away Christianity. That's what it is. I think oftentimes, Christianity, one time a friend of mine, who's a non-believer, Christianity to him is just so annoying. It's like a mosquito. And, you know, we all want to kill the mosquito. It's annoying, whatever else. But I submit that the way most people try to get rid of Christianity is like a crazy guy with a shotgun. He shoots the mosquito, but ends up destroying a lot more things that are precious than actually what it is. What I'm trying to do is just at least put some rocks in your shoes, or point out the rocks in your shoes and realize, hey, there's some things that are tension, rational tension, what you believe. Now, if tonight you don't believe you can convert, that's okay. I'm fine with that. But, you know, That's my agenda. That's my agenda. I think what I see here, I think you're right and I think we're right. And I think what you're trying to do is you're trying to make me doubt what... He did. He made me run around in circles. No, because I've had this conversation with dozens and dozens of people. If you take like a... class or like a rhetoric class. But you guys believe opposite things. My background is philosophy. Just FYI a little bit. I'm actually a pastor of a church. So I did spend a long time in the language. But you know how to talk and you know how to argue with people. I would actually say the reason, it's philosophy, it's secular philosophy or UCLA. That's where my undergrad was at before that. You did a very good job. By the way, if I could say one thing, Gabriel, to me, I don't want to say it's my loss. I actually think there's objective truth here. I don't want this to say, okay, just because... Listen, you guys are pretty bright. You, Gabriel, are retracting the argument pretty bright. I don't doubt you guys here are bright. I don't doubt that at all. But I think the issue is the fact of what you guys believe. Actually, I think you guys are bright. The reason why I think that is because you guys have some pre-set vision, and you guys are trying to take it to the logical conclusion. And I'm just trying to say, you guys are pulling your own rug. You guys are self-declaring yourself. And I see that you guys are bright because you guys are trying to live that out. And I'm just trying to say that this is actually, I think this is the problem. It's in the end of rejection, in the end of acceptance. But you know what? I'll let you guys have the last say. I know we've been moving away a little bit. I'll let you guys have the last say. I don't want to... I have a preacher's mouth. I could go on forever. I think the problem with this conversation is that they're saying that there is. And what I'm going to always say is that there's always a maybe or an if, which is the gray area. Because, like I said, unless you've seen him, I don't think you have. If you did, then... You can't prove there is. You can only say, I believe he is. I have faith he is. And that's one of the problems I have with the religion is not only is it some invisible force we're supposed to subscribe to and say this is when there is no proof around it. I mean, all of this stuff can be scientifically proven based on everything else. The one thing that can't be proven is God. They can say, well, it's proven. this way, this way, but it's all just subjective. I mean, I've seen, I've seen, you know, I've seen sermons on it, I've seen, I mean, I've been, I was a practicing Catholic for almost 15 years of my life, and I just realized the book is not exactly what it is. I mean, not only are there only five or so of Jesus' lieutenants that, that wrote it, there are 12, I mean, not even, you know, Thomas the Doubter is in it. I mean, I mean, you have freaking, I mean, in my opinion, there are problems with it. You can always say your opinion is based on psychology, and we can go around, around, around in a circle, and there's never going to be an answer, because you're not proving anything to me. The only thing you're doing is you're reacting to my situation, which is why we're spinning around. I mean, I don't really know what you're trying to prove. You're not trying to make me... We're not Catholic. You're saying we're Catholic, Christian, whatever, Jesus Christ, what does it matter? I mean, the 50 million things that there are. I mean, it doesn't matter. You're just trying to say you're wrong and this is why you're wrong because I'm using your words in a twisted manner that are not really what I said, but you're saying it in a very cool and disciplined way. And that's the problem. You know, first of all, I just want to say, you know, I thought it was great how you kind of, you know, obeyed it and then, you know, and then we kind of went off on a tangent with our passions instead of being totally logical. And all of a sudden, yeah, you had to chase ourselves there for a minute. That was great. You know, Religion... I mean, ultimately, I guess, I mean, Christianity, I mean, it could be a great guide as far as morals, you know, adoption of Kale, still. Got it. You know, nobody's gonna argue that. I mean, those are the morals that America was based on. You know, but... I mean, you see the way, you know, things are progressing, you know. I'm not Christian. I don't have an issue with homosexuality. But the Bible does. And implicitly, in Leviticus, it says, Thou shalt not lie with another. It says that, you know, so nobody can say, oh, well, the Bible doesn't say it. Or the Bible is vague about it. No, the Bible does say. Oh, because of the Romans. And Leviticus, the Bible does say that. But I don't really put that much faith in the Bible. But the thing is, it's like, I mean, I think eventually it comes down to who knows. I mean, we know that there is some moral truth out there. you know, depend on where you go. I mean, if you go to any of the, you know, modernized countries, America, England, you know, Japan, even Russia, there is some universal truth, you know, basic things that are right, basic things that are wrong, that everybody accepts. But then you go to places like, I don't know, you know, some place in Afghanistan, you know, some places in, you know, South America, Africa, where they don't necessarily believe the same things. I simply believe that as humanity progresses, as humanity progresses and we become more integrated with each other, then there is going to be a single universal truth. Now, I know it's going to be down the road that there will be a universal truth, but as far as where it came from, I don't know. And you pulled us in that way. Arguments did become a rationale at one point, because we were trying to justify this. I don't know. He doesn't know. I mean, we accept that we don't know, but you believe in your God and then, you know, you believe you do know. So that's, I guess what it is. I mean, agree to disagree. Okay. That's why you should never argue philosophy. Okay. I'll just end it here.