If you would like a free newsletter on this or other subjects, just give us a call at Christian Answers. The phone number is area code 512-218-8022. That's 512-218-8022. Or you could email us at cdebater at aol.com. That's cdebater at aol.com. Thank you. Hello, this is Larry Wessels, director of Christian Answers. I wanted to let our listeners know that we experienced technical difficulties with our master recording during this broadcast of the Ouija board with Dr. Edmund Gruss. Unfortunately, the sound quality may be not quite up to normal standards at some points during the program. So please bear with us due to this problem. Thank you very much. Welcome to Christian Answers Live, an outreach of Christian Answers, a nationwide apologetics ministry dedicated to contending for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints, dedicated to giving Christian answers. And now, from the studios of KIXL Radio in Austin, Texas, here are your hosts, Lee Meckley and Jim Tungate. Good evening. I'm Lee Meckley, Director of Radio Outreach for Christian Answers, along with Jim Tungate. And Jim is our Director of Research and Editor of the Christian Answers Journal. And also tonight we have with us Larry Wessels, who is our Director of Christian Answers. Gentlemen, how are you doing this evening? We're doing fine, Lee. Yes. Okay, now tonight we're going to be dealing with a subject that I must confess from the beginning, I did not realize that you could actually do an entire show or write an entire book on this subject, but tonight we're going to be talking about Ouija boards. This is going to be something that you definitely need to be listening to because they are quite popular nowadays and according to our guest tonight there are some things that you definitely need to know about these. Tonight we're going to be speaking to Edmund Gruss, who is Professor Emeritus at the Master's College in Santa Clarita, California. He is author of Cults and the Occult, also Apostles of Denial, an Examination and Exposé of the History, Doctrines, and Claims of the Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Jehovah's Witnesses and Prophetic Speculation. Okay, yeah, we got you on the line now. Edmund, how are you doing this evening? Okay, I guess if you could comment briefly on what I had said at the beginning of the show. This is kind of interesting. I've heard quite a bit about Ouija boards, but it didn't really occur to me that you could actually write a whole book on this subject. Well, I didn't think a person could either. I started investigating the subject about 40 years ago. I started teaching a course in a Bible institute dealing with various groups, including spiritualism. And often the subject of the Legion of Words was nothing to do with that. I'd been involved in religious versus radicalism. So I couldn't find much on it. And I started looking a little bit. I found a little bit. And I found more. And I found more. And I was looking to see if it was possible. And ultimately, I thought, well, I should write maybe an article on it. And I did write an article that was published by Moody Press in a little acorn booklet back in 1973. And then in 1975, I came out with a complete book because it related to the film The Exorcist, which was really well-related, not only in the film, but also in real life. Then I was asked again to write something for Moody in 1986. And then that went out of print. I had gotten a lot of material. I just thought, well, there's too much good stuff here by good. I need important stuff here. And I thought I'll get back to the desk and write a book. It turned out to be over 200 pages long. Edmund, who invented the Ouija board and where did such devices originate originally? Well, we have several things in that question. First of all, we have the Ouija board as a patent device. which was patented in 1891 by Elijah Bond. And that's the Ouija board, basically what we have today. We have a few changes, but it's a basic board with a little bit of changes given the number of years it went by. But devices like the Ouija board go all the way back to ancient times. And we have devices that incorporate the alphabet and a pointer of some kind. or it might be that which is like a pendulum, or it might be some other like device that moves around and either describes an answer by spelling it out or points to various letters of the alphabet or numbers. And you can trace devices like that all the way through from ancient times, the Greeks, the Byzantines, devices in the Middle Ages. 19th century have the practice of table tipping or knocking. And then you have the planchette, which comes into the picture. It's a way of automatic writing that comes into the picture mid-1850s. And ultimately, we get to the combination of the device that moves with the alphabet and numbers and words that we have in the Ouija board. And as I said, there's a patent device, 1891. Now, you mentioned a couple of things that maybe our audience may not be familiar with, and the first one was table knocking or table tipping. Well, people would ask questions, and the table would either wrap out internally. You'd hear a wrapping sound. In other words, you could say, if you wanted to answer, one wrap is A, and two wraps are B, that kind of thing. Or in some cases, the table would lift up and actually tap on one leg. That's the way I understand it anyway. So that was the practice that was very current in the 19th century. Right. And haven't they also used like wine glasses or crystal for the same purposes? Well, when we talk about the Ouija board, we're talking about a patented device, but also in our country and abroad, England in particular, a person would just spell out the numbers of the alphabet and put them on a table or on a piece of glass, and then they'd use a wine glass or anything and throw it around the table and they'd ask questions, and you'd have the same principle there, except it's not the patented device that's doing the same thing. We've talked a little bit about how the Ouija board works. If the Ouija board talks, where do the messages come from, Edmund? Well, the first thing I would say is we're not saying that everything comes from widget mortgages from some supernatural source. We set that aside. We just say in some cases we feel very strongly it is. But if it's not by conscious movement of the pointer, and some people have done that just to fool someone. I really moved it. Many times neither of them actually move it to their knowledge and yet it still seems to be spelling out something. There are different interpretations. Some would say that from the subconscious and imperceptible muscle movements are spilling out messages on the board. Some would say, yes, we do have the subconscious operating, but we also have a dimension that would be disincarnate spirits or other intelligences that are coming through. And most Christians would say, yes, there is a subconscious movement dimension, but in some cases you do have evil spirits or demons that are communicating through that device, because it is historically a divination device. It's an occult device. It's not the kind of game that it's made to be. Although, of course, people can play at the game, but historically it has not been associated with a game. Is divination something that the Bible allows Christians to participate in? No, divination, occult involvement is something that's universally condemned in scripture because it's clear that we aren't to be turning to these devices or the occult, but believers are to turn to God for their answers. And the occult is spiritualism or mediumship, any way you want to identify it. It's clearly identified as wrong, Jews apostasy, departing from God, and there are a number of references, I have some before me here, but there are a number of references that could be cited which would condemn occult involvement and occult devices. Now, before we did this show, I guess it was about two months ago that I read your book when I received it from the publisher. After I read your book, I went at my office. I walked around and asked people, you know, have you ever used a Ouija board and what did you think? And one of the people in particular that stands out in my mind was a friend of mine who is a practicing witch. And I asked him, I said, well, what do you think about the Ouija board and have you ever used it? The look that came over his face kind of took me back a little bit. He said, no, he said it is totally evil. He said I wouldn't touch one of those, that there's, you know, many dangerous things that can happen and it can be used for much evil. And he really didn't even want to talk about it after that. It kind of stuck out in my mind that maybe he had a bad experience with it himself. For those people out there who think that maybe this isn't such an important topic, according to Consumer Reports, the December 1994 issue, the only game that ranked above the Ouija board was Monopoly. And according to the statistics for girls, the second favorite game behind Twister was the Ouija board, and for boys, it was the fifth. most popular game. You're saying that it was more popular than like Clue? Oh, definitely. Or Uno? There's a whole list of different games. Yahtzee is way down at the bottom of the list. Othello, Pictionary, you know, games that we typically think of as being very popular. Well, the Ouija board ranks second only behind Monopoly. Well, let's ask Dr. Gruss. Doctor, what What is this tremendous appeal where only Monopoly beats out the Ouija board? Well, the age group there was ages 10 through 14. I think that tells you a little bit. And it included some 17,000 young people. I think at that age, they're looking for answers. And it's kind of exciting to get involved in it. And they can ask benign questions like, who will I go out with? or how I do on my test and that kind of thing. What often happens is young people go to slumber parties or even in some cases Christian camps and it happens. It should be good. They're kind of isolated and they're having a let's have a lot of fun time and they get involved and it's a little mysterious. Anyway, I think it often gets started that way. People want to have answers and they understand. Here I can ask Luigi or whatever they want to address the board as. And they get the answers that, well, so and so had an experience and boy it was exciting and that kind of thing. I think it's why they get involved. You know, in fact, I remember when I was about, I don't know, 11 or 12 years old, I was at my aunt's house. She was a couple, three years older than I was and she had some of her teenage friends over and they went into a dark room with this Ouija board and they invited us to come in and it was kind of a It was kind of fun, you know, for me as a little kid, we all went in this dark room and everybody was kidding each other about spooks and stuff like this. And we put our hands on that Ouija board thing to get answers, you know. And I still remember I spooked some of them by actually moving it myself to fake them out, you know. So there's a little bit of fun involved there, too. Well, I think at the same time that you've touched on something else that I think is important, and that's the aspect of fear. America and the world seems to be compelled by fear. They love to be scared. And it's just like when you're a little kid and you go in the bathroom with the lights off and look at the mirror to see if you see Bloody Mary. It's kind of the same thing with the Ouija board where you're sitting there and you've heard that, you know, it's evil and it's kind of mysterious and at the same time, you're trying to overcome a fear by participating in that. Right. I'd just like for a moment to read a scripture here that's kind of an occult rundown from a scripture just to mention it and then have Dr. Gruss elaborate on it just a little bit to get our biblical perspective down a little bit more here as we begin this program. In Deuteronomy chapter 18 verses 9 through 14 we have a Kind of like I said an occult listing of all the different practices and so forth and it says here starting in verse 9 Without heart come into the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations There shall not be found among you anyone that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire or that uses divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination of the Lord. Because of these abominations, the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee. Thou shalt be perfect with with the Lord thy God and then it says in verse 14 for these nations Which thou shalt possess hearken unto observers of times and unto diviners But as for thee the Lord thy God hath not suffered thee So to do the doctor here. We have some rather big King James words for our listeners out there could you maybe Just kind of start at the top there and maybe explain what some of these abominations are, like a son or a daughter passed through the fire, and so forth as it goes, you know, observer of the times, enchanter, charmer, wizard. I couldn't specifically divide each of those and explain each of those because often it's a matter of different translations as to what the specific translation is, but you're dealing with all of these practices which are either turning to other gods or asking for wisdom from individuals who have contact with spirits or people who are reading signs, whichever signs you're looking at, all kinds of signs, everything from the flow of water to the flight of birds and wind, those who are actually conjuring up things, just like you'd have in the practice of witchcraft, those that are consulting the dead for answers. It'd be hard to take each of these and explain each, but you get the total picture here of apostasy, because when people turn to witchcraft or soothsayers or interpreters of omens or sorcerers or those who conjure spells or mediums or Whatever the other terms are there, they are in a state of apostasy. Do you see the Ouija board as having a relationship to all these occultic practices? Can people, let's say, you know, you have necromancers and so forth that, you know, that speak with the dead and so forth. Can a Ouija board be interpreted in the sense, in an occultic sense of being in contact with spirits, let's say, or can it be looked at as a way to interpret omens? In other words, is it a way to kind of combine all these different occultic practices into one simple little playful type form, which we find is a Ouija board. It could, and in some cases it is used to introduce people, recruit people into these practices. As we mention in our book, individuals who have been involved in Satanism or in witchcraft, as another example, the board was used to recruit them into these other practices. So that could be the connection many times. Very good. Our guest tonight has a book out on the Ouija board, an entire book dedicated to talking about the Ouija board. It's published by Presbyterian Reform. The name of the book is The Ouija Board, A Doorway to the Occult, again by our guest tonight, Edmund Gruss. And I was going to just before we went out for the break, about one of the aspects of the Ouija board that you mentioned is that it is patented. So if I make a device like this, I can not only get in trouble with spirits, but I can also get in trouble with the government. Is that true? There are all kinds of spinoffs from the board. It was of interest. A patent attorney investigated the matter of like devices for about five years. about a hundred different devices, maybe a hundred different patents in addition. So many devices like this are called all different kinds of other names, but you can make it at home just so you don't use the word Ouija on it. How did they come up with the name for the board and call it Ouija? Many times you have some legend or lore that goes along with naming. William Foulds said that the board named itself, and Ouija means yes, yes in French and German. It seems that the word Ouija already was around before it was applied to the boards that received the patent. But as I said, William Fold said the board named itself. Now you did say that William Fold is the inventor of the Ouija board, and that was... No, William Fold is the person who has received credit for it, but it really was patented by Elijah Bond. Although William Fould was given the credit and as he kind of checked into this to find out what was going on, it appears that William Fould bought the rights to it from the Canard company that had acquired it from Elijah Bond. And that's the way Fould got a hold of it. And then Fould got involved in inventing a new kind of a pointer. and other stuff which related to Ford. So the name associated with the Ford is William Ford, but probably Elijah Vaughn was the one who actually invented that particular device. Now wasn't there a big controversy centering around the patentship of the Ford between Ford and another individual? His brother, because it became quite a financial windfall, it became a good seller and it was a moneymaker. We don't really know the relationship between two brothers' relatives, of course, but they went to court over it. And his brother Isaac wanted something in the way of either the patents or any way to make claims to it. And the family actually split over the matter of the board and who really was the one that should hold the patents and the like. What eventually happened to Folt? Very interesting. According to his own account, This would be before probably about the time of World War I, maybe a little bit thereafter. I don't remember the exact date. But he told a reporter that he hadn't really consulted the board very often, but he did consult it on one matter, and that was concerning the future of the business. And according to his own account, the board told him to build a big business because of the future. And so he built the factory according to his own account that the board told him to build. And ironically, he went up on the top of this factory in 1927 to straighten out a flagpole on the roof that fell to his death from the very building the board indicated and told him to build. So, just to reiterate then, you're saying that Elijah Bond, back around 1890, this is the year we're talking about? 1890, he applied for the patent and received the patent February the 10th of 1891. I see, and then Fold comes along later in that year and acquires it. So we're talking about something that hasn't been around that long as we know it. You figure 1891. and 95 now. We're over 100 years, but again, this specific patent device, we're not dealing with the practice or the approach. It's been around for a thousand years. I see. And it sounds like just Foal was the main marketeer. He picked it up from someone else, improved it, made it marketable, started mass producing it, and now we have it just all over the place. Who did you say puts this out now? What game company? It was bought by Parker Brothers. Parker Brothers. I couldn't remember who it was. What does Parker Brothers have to say about the Ouija board? What you'll find out, at least I tried a couple of times. One time, when I first was working on this subject about 20 years ago, I sent a letter asking if they had any statement on it. And they did send me a very interesting little brochure, which I'll give you a quote from in a moment. And then when I worked on this latest rendition of my book, I just got a letter with no brochure. And I was asking about sales, et cetera. And they told me about the number of boards sold with proprietary information. In other words, they wouldn't reveal it. But this brochure that I received about 20 years ago was entitled, The Weird and Wonderful Ouija Talking Board Set. And I think it has a statement here that's very significant in connection with how the board should be viewed, then their statement. I'm quoting now. Frankly, Parker Brothers does not know. They are a leading manufacturer of games, but they doubt whether the Ouija talking board should really be regarded as a game. Interesting. They do know that many people have a lot of fun with it, and that those who enjoy using it are often interested in the occult. I wonder if they'd like to continue distributing. a brochure with a statement in it. Because a lot of people say, oh, there's nothing new, it's just a game. And when they themselves, they are leading manufacturer of games, but they doubt whether the Ouija talking board should really be regarded as a game. Well, let me reiterate for a moment here on the operation and interpretation of the Ouija board. And as it says here in your book on page 30, it says, there's some questions that are asked about this board. What makes it work? What is the source of the messages? Are the communications received through the board just a reflection of the operator's conscious or subconscious thought? Or do they sometimes reveal contact with another dimension, the supernatural? If the latter is true, what is the evidence? We kind of touched on this briefly in our opening segment, if we could kind of elaborate a little bit more now to some of these questions. Okay, without a lot of specifics, just generally, often the content of the messages reveals information that the person receiving the message can't possibly know. It might give specific information concerning where a person is, I give information concerning historical events that a person that receives a message knows nothing about. And there is a remarkable account that goes back to the period 1913 following Toa Death in 1937. A woman by the name of Kiran wrote novels that we were told were historically accurate through the Ouija board. information that comes that the person doesn't have any source for internally or through their own experience. Another interesting thing concerning messages, the editor for my book was very eager to work on this book because she said she ran across the young lady in InterVarsity going back a number of years. This young lady and her other friends were involved in using the board and they were having fun with it, as is often expressed. Then they started asking questions that they couldn't possibly have the answer to and they would check the answers in an encyclopedia or wherever the answer might be found. They found information that was coming that was accurate that they couldn't possibly have in their own experience or own knowledge. So content of messages, that's one thing. Then many times the realization that this person has come under some external control, we can call it either possession or obsession. And often there are cases of possession which relate to the Ouija board. Ed and Lorraine Warren, who are hematologists, experts as she'll probably have been out to check out 3 or 4,000 different cases, The last count that I received was that seven out of 10 of their cases are related to Ouija board use, and many of these were possession cases. And then, in some cases, the board was subjected to tasks such as blindfolding of the individuals working at rearranging the letters. And in many cases, that was where the person couldn't possibly know what was being spelled out because they couldn't see the board. They didn't know what the letters were because they had been rearranged. And then what I call difficult to explain phenomena, such as physical manifestations. Often people say we're working with a drop in temperature, so it became very cool in the room. A wind blew through the room through point reading. Small things were blown off the shelf or off the wall. William Peter Blatty, who wrote the Exorcist book and also worked in the film, said that he was working the board himself. He had some mechanical birds that sang when the mechanics of these birds were broken. I had a woman who wrote to me who said that she used to construct boards with the use of the glass and all, and she had a skeptic in her séance. That's what she was conducting. And he said, oh, you're just, your hand, so she pulled her hands off into the masonry Wineglass kept them going along, moving along in a circle, and she was frightened by what she saw too. So we can just say physical manifestations, drop of temperature, wind, singing of birds in this case, or whatever else is operated that shouldn't be operated, movement without hands, in some cases a foreign language is concerned. Those are all things that you can You can explain some things, but you've got something here that seems to be another dimension that's operating that you can't explain. Okay. I was going to ask you a couple of questions. First of all, the book is available, I guess, in Christian bookstores? Do they have to dial an 800 number to get a hold of a copy? Christian bookstores all over our country here and also probably in England and Australia and other places have it. It's also distributed by Baker Book House. No, no, no, I shouldn't say that. I have the wrong, the other book is. But it's distributed through Christian bookstores all over the country. Okay. Now, you mentioned something before we left for the break about the producer or the writer for the movie The Exorcist. And your book actually talks about the Ouija board's role in the book and or the movie. Could you elaborate on that, please? Okay, some of the people listening might remember that the novel The Exorcist came out in 1971 and the film that really shook things up came out in 1973. At the time I was interested in the subject of the Ouija board and someone said, hey, there's a Ouija board connection there, so I went to see the film and then I wrote to William Peter Blatty and I got other information. And the exorcist plot story goes back to an experience of a 14-year-old boy in Mount Rainier, Maryland, back in August of 1949. It made the newspaper, or papers at that time. And Blatty saw that, and as a student and a person interested in this kind of thing, he pursued it, and it ultimately became the novel and the film. So in the Noblin film, instead of a 14-year-old boy, you have a girl. And a good deal of the account, though, in the book and film recreate what did take place, not slavishly, but at least the general outline of things that took place there. It's also interesting that in the summer of 1993, an entire book came out dealing with the same case. And the book is titled Possess the True Story of an Exorcism and was written by Thomas B. Allen and published by AA. It's dealing with the same exorcist case upon which the novel and the film were based, the actual case behind it. Now I remember when I was just a high school kid, I remember Back then I used to watch the Johnny Carson show. It's his night show. And I remember Blatty was on the show as a guest. And I remember Johnny Carson asking him about how he came up with this book. And he said things similar to what you're saying. He said he actually based this stuff on some actual possession cases and things. And we have this situation of exorcism mentioned here. And just for the sake of our listeners, In the movie, The Exorcist, you find that the Catholic priests that are in this movie, I think they both end up getting killed at the end of the movie. Sort of like score two for the devil, and the demon kind of gets away with things. I think they came up with an exorcist two and three and whatever else they came up with. But in an actual exorcism, just for listeners to clarify things, If you're dealing with a truly demon-possessed person, is a true Christian in danger of being killed by demons, or are they protected by the blood of Christ? I would say there is danger. I don't think danger of being killed, but there is an attempt often by a demon to intimidate individuals. I don't think it should be taken lightly, but I would say that a Christian is standing on solid ground as a Christian. and biblically strong can't deal with such a thing, but not to take it lightly. Okay, so a true born-again, washed-in-the-blood child of God who understands what he's dealing with is not in any danger of being killed by the demons. I wouldn't think so, but strange things have happened. But I'm just saying that take it seriously. Exactly. If you're, let's say, a weak Christian, someone that's not prepared for this kind of spiritual warfare, the last place you really want to be is dealing with some demon-possessed person and the entities that are abounding with them. I guess what I'm just basically trying to say is if you're truly in Christ, you know, through the power of His name and by His blood, you should be safe from demonic attack. The thing is, I haven't dealt with cases of possession. I've dealt with cases where there seemed to be demonic working in an individual. But some of my students on the mission field have dealt with cases of possession. But it's very important to pray and to have command of the Word of God and to challenge whatever is coming to that individual. But there will be attempts to intimidate, such as, we can get you, we can do this to you. And then the response, of course, for the Christian is, you could do it, but I'm not alone. I'm standing in the strength of God. Amen. I was just in Atlanta last week at the hotel. I was in the dining room and a little old lady walked up to me and we began a conversation. It turned out that her and her husband were former missionaries down in Trinidad. This evangelist had come into town. They set up a big tent meeting and it ended up that this person showed up at the meeting. He had been brought there by others and he was possessed. And this evangelist was just beside himself. He had no idea what to do and ended up actually running out of the tent and fleeing for his life. He had no idea what was going on or how to even approach the situation. That's often what happens. I would say in some cases pastors aren't prepared for dealing with something like that and are the last ones that would want to do something unless needed. As I said, it's not to be taken lightly. It's a serious business and the fright involved in dealing with something like that, especially if you've never seen it, is really something to voice or voices and the threats and all that. You need people around you to pray and to sustain you. Sometimes there's a man commanding the spirit of Damon to just shut up. This reminds me of the book of Acts, Acts chapter 19, verses 13 through 16, which says, Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them, which had evil spirits, the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus, whom Paul preaches. In verse 14, and there were seven sons of one Siva, a Jew and chief of the priest, which did so. And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus, I know, and Paul, I know, but who are ye? Verse 16, and the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them and overcame them and prevailed against him so that they fled out of the house naked and wounded. So I guess this is a good example of what can happen in just one case of people trying to deal when they're ill-prepared, especially since they're not saved in this case, with demon-possessed people. I also look at that reference as an excellent example of why we say demons are real personalities and not just fraud or whatever. Because there you have them thinking, speaking, acting, and that's what would be involved in being a person of a personality. Right. And you also, and this was something else that was brought out in the movie The Exorcist, was the feats of great strength. And the man in the Bible who lived in the tombs was in chains and apparently was quite violent. This to me gives me a perception that anytime you're dealing with a situation like this, there is the possibility of physical harm coming to a Christian. But at the same time, scripture also says, fear not the one who can destroy the body, but fear the one who can cast your soul into hell, which is God. Um, well that ties in with what you're just saying a reference in luke chapter 8 verses 26 through 37 and you see there where jesus casts out this legion of demons Where they asked jesus to be to let them go into the all these swine Right and you and you see what happens to the swine. They're all destroyed in the sea So there's a lot of destructive power associated with the spirits and demons especially in possession cases where they apparently in this case can even possess animals One of the most stirring accounts that you give in your book Edmund is of a young girl Who begins to play with the Ouija board and actually becomes infatuated? With the spirits that's communicating with her and the board. Why don't you relate that story to us? I uh... i can relate to all of it uh... i'd believe you're talking about the patty donovan this case and uh... some others are picked up from the book uh... demonologist by gerald brittle i talked with him over the phone and uh... he's picking up these cases from uh... what the uh... the warrens that were involved in but uh... here is a girl who was uh... involved with the ouija board and uh... She probably was involved for a long period of time, maybe for about a year or so. And the Luigi character that came through became her boyfriend, in her own thinking. And she finally got the place. And this is often what takes place as these contacts continue over a period of time. The girl didn't ask for a physical manifestation. and she didn't make the connection to what was happening just after that request. The house, in one word, was vandalized. You know, the tires on the cars were cut and then they had them repaired and put it in the garage and then the tires were slashed again and the car was vandalized. Rocks fell at the house and furniture levitated and the house was, in one word, crashed. It looked like someone had taken all the stuff out of the cabinets and dumped the stuff that would be liquid and salt and pepper and all that stuff on the floor and mixed it all up. And that happened, I believe, a couple of times. Wallpaper was torn off the walls and messes around the walls and pounding, just like the house was going to be shaken down, burning the pictures. I called it a nightmare. I didn't want to even finish it because it got worse and worse. All I could say was that it was like a nightmare. Even when I left the house this kind of thing followed me to the motel where I stayed. When I talked to Gerald Riddle and also brought a little statement in my book, he indicated that the cases that were included in this book demonologists were not cases that were ill-documented. They were cases that were observed and put on tape and in other ways observed by people. Well, right, even when the house was being pelted by rocks, there were police officers present, people in the neighborhood, so there were numerous witnesses to these events. And I brought these cases, this being one of them, into the book because often people think, well, this is just something that It's kind of an unusual thing that never happens. I thought, well, while the exorcist is an older case, there are other things going on that have some of the same kind of things happening. In some cases, even worse. So I brought those other examples in so that people could see that this kind of thing is not unique. One case was from Enfield, England. So things can happen other than in the United States. And a couple of these cases in the United States, Cindy McBain, a 15-year-old, and her experiences. This is from another book of the Ghost Hunters. And again, it's a very serious thing. It's not something that can be just sloughed off and there's nothing to it. The problem is many times people who know nothing about the subject are so knowledgeable, in quotes, They say, well, there's nothing to it. But they haven't investigated it. And so there are a lot of experts who don't have any real information to decide that it's all just nonsense or a game to be taken lightly. Sounds like you're talking about ignorant know-it-alls. Well, we're almost out of time here. I would like to, uh, for the second hour, I'd like to really get into a lot more of these case studies and histories that you've, you've provided in your book to give people a little sampling of it. Uh, I would like to mention here from your book on page one Oh two, you list something called, uh, symptoms of a cult activity involvement compiled from actual case studies and interviews as of September, 1989 from Emma. And it mentions a lot of symptoms of extensive Ouija board use, such as frightening, reoccurring nightmares, voices, insomnia, apparitions, suicidal and murderous thoughts, extremely secretive demeanor, time loss, memory gap, violent behavior, poltergeist activity, depression, withdrawal from society, drug use, physical contact by a seen or unseen entity, sometimes sexual, involuntary muscle spasm, not associated with drug use, also described as a shaking or vibrating bed, or the sensation of mild earthquakes, or the sensation of mild earthquakes. There's many more I could list here, but that ought to give people a sample. Good evening, I'm Lee Meckley, Director of Radio Outreach for Christian Answers, along with Jim Tungate, who is our Director of Research and Editor of the Christian Answers Journal. And also tonight, with us in the studio, we have Larry Wessels, who is the Director of Christian Answers, and we are talking with Edmund Gruss. He is the author of a book called The Ouija Board, A Doorway to the Occult, published by Presbyterian and Reformed. Reading a little bit from the book release here, Innocent fun, or introduction to the occult, billed as a harmless game, the Ouija board has drawn countless users, especially young people, into a web of deception and demonic activity. The results can be tragic. Obsession, possession, insanity, suicide, and murder. Without sensationalism, Edwin Russ demonstrates through one startling case after another that these dangers are all too real. He traces the occult ancestry of the Ouija board and explores possible sources of messages as well as Ouija's role in the exorcist, which we were talking about last hour, and the modern channeling movement. Russ combines compelling documentation with a solid biblical response and offers practical steps for those struggling with the occult. Edmund Gruss is Professor Emeritus at the Masters College in Santa Clarita, California. He's author of Cults and the Occult, also Apostles of Denial, an examination and expose of the history, doctrines, and claims of the Jehovah's Witnesses. and the Jehovah's Witnesses and Prophetic Speculation, as well as several other books on the cults and the occult. Again, the book we're talking about tonight, The Ouija Board, A Doorway to the Occult, published by Presbyterian and Reformed. Ed Minner, are you still with us? Yes. Okay, thank you again very much for being on the program tonight. Could I pick up that Eamon quote you were using? Sure, please do. I'd like to put it in a little bit of context. Randy Eamon at the time was a sergeant in the police department and also was an expert on the occult. He would go out and speak to teenage groups. Many of these groups would be in Christian schools. After his presentations, he often would have young people come and talk with him. He interviewed about 1,500 teenagers between the years you mentioned, 1985 1992 who had been involved in the occult and what you were quoting was what he Came up with as a result of these interviews and Well, all these things you're reading and more in addition Related to the occult many of them almost all of them could also and were related to Ouija board use So this was the occult generally, but as I looked down them, I said, hey, we find the same things in Ouija board uses as manifestations of extensive use. the symptoms of like insomnia, frightening reoccurring nightmares, violent behavior, poltergeist activity, depression, drug use, physical contact by a seen or unseen entity, sometimes sexual, and so forth, involuntary muscle spasm, that quotation right before the break. And the interesting thing is, as he looked at these statistics, because he was interested in why do young people get involved with this cult realm, and how do they get involved, And he said better than two-thirds that he interviewed said the main item of curiosity that caused them to continue a deeper interest in the occult was their experimentation with the Ouija board. So it was like the open door. That's why we titled our book, the Ouija board, A Doorway to the Occult. I purposely put A in there because this is only one of the possibilities. And that's what he found too. Now, Lee had mentioned a little bit earlier that one of the aspects is channeling, and that has become very prominent today. There's been many books that have been written through channeling, and, you know, Jay-Z Knight comes to mind whenever the word channeling comes up. Ramtha. Ramtha. And one of the things that I found very astounding that was in your book was when you related the case about the gentleman who started AA, Alcoholics Anonymous, and the role that the Ouija Board played in that. Do you want me to mention a little bit about that? Yes, sir. Okay. As I was getting into this subject, you know, many times people think this whole thing just relates to children or people who aren't too well-known or just, you know, no one that you'd be concerned about, but as I was investigating this, I came across the material actually published by Alcoholics Anonymous. And in their own material they talk about Dr. Bob Smith and Bill Wilson, these Dr. Bob and Bill timers, and pass it on, these are the title of the books. And I was amazed to find the place that Spiritualism General and the Ouija Board specifically played in of the early years of Alcoholics Anonymous. Do you have my book handy there? Yes, sure do. Turn to page 66. You might just read that to the folks out there. You have the background of Ouija board use, and they have a room in the home that's called the Spook Room. And then you have his own description of what took place on page 66. Yes, starting at the top of the page. It says, as early as 1941 Bill and Lois were holding regular Saturday spook sessions at Bedford Hills One of the downstairs bedrooms was dubbed by them the Spook Room. Here they conducted many of their psychic experiments. Bill Wilson provides an account of one of his Ouija Board sessions. The Ouija Board got moving in earnest. What followed was the fairly usual experience. It was a strange melange of Aristotle, St. Francis, diverse archangels with odd names, deceased friends, some in purgatory and others doing nicely, thank you. They were malign and mischievous ones of all descriptions, telling advices quite beyond my keen, even as former alcoholics. Then the seemingly virtuous entities would elbow them out with meaningless messages of comfort, information, advice, and sometimes just sheer nonsense. says that Bill also received messages without the board. His wife describes one of these sessions. Bill would lie down on the couch, and he would get these things. He kept doing it every week or so. Each time, certain people would quote, come in, end quote. Sometimes it would be new ones, or they would carry on some story. There would be long sentences, word by word, would come through. This time, instead of word by word, it was letter by letter. And Ann, who was a neighbor, put them down letter by letter. The communication in this case was in Latin, a language that Bill understood only slightly. Bill took the material to a classic scholar, a classical scholar who read the messages and was impressed by it. Bill wrote, Bill Wilson wrote the now famous quote, Twelve Steps. says, while laying in bed with a pencil in hand and a pad of yellow scratch paper on his knee, he started to write. He asked for guidance, and he relaxed. The words began tumbling out with astonishing speed. He completed the first draft in about half an hour, then kept on writing until he felt he should stop and review what he had written. Numbering the new steps, he found that they all added up to 12, a symbolic number. He thought of the 12 apostles and soon became convinced that a society should have 12 steps. It's interesting, the last paragraph between the subject, Tom was a regular at the seances and maintained that Bill and Dr. Bob believed vigorously and aggressively that working away at spiritualism was not just a hobby related to AA because the big problem with AA is that for the materialists it's hard to buy the program. In other words, they were trying to bring up some spiritual dimension and this is the way they were doing it. in Alcoholics Anonymous. And we've got the famous 12 steps. It sounds like he used automatic writing to come up with the whole thing. The quote says, I'm not saying it was, but it sure made a person sympathetic to channeling speculate. By this description, could it be that Bill went into his meditative state and used automatic writing to channel the 12 steps? It sounds so much like automatic writing at that point. It's very interesting. Now this 12 steps, isn't that used by a lot of psychology groups and doctors? Yeah, Christian groups and new age groups and whatever they put in content, you have 12 steps all over the place now. This all reminds me of one of the best-selling Christian books ever to come down. You find it on the best-seller list in many Christian bookstores throughout the decade, I guess. It's called God Calling. Yes, this book is a best-seller. I've had it removed from several Christian bookstores now, but they usually have it on their shelf wherever you go. And it's interesting, here's a book, God Calling, and it was translated entirely by automatic writing and communication with the spirits. And of course, as you look at it, you find that the words for God are very vague and nebulous. Excuse me? Like divine mind and something. Right. Which is exactly the same with the whole aspect of Alcoholics Anonymous. They believe in a belief in a power higher than themselves, but that higher power is never defined. Yes, you define it for your own sake, your own belief. Well, is there any more channeling that can be tied in with this Ouija board situation? Well, going back to the beginning of the chapter of, this would be chapter nine, Jane Roberts, her married name was Butts, back in 1963 thought that she'd write a book on do-it-yourself ESP using the Ouija board as a way of getting into that area. And she said, well, before I write a book, I guess I better get a board. She did, and then beginning in December of 1963, a message started coming through, and then the character which became the subject of the book, Seth, appeared. Her book, How to Develop Your SP Power, was published in 1966, but when Seth appeared, he became a dominating character for her other books. wrote books like Seth Speaks and other Seth books, and they became the example of how to get into this area. Others followed her, and you have a person by the name of Sinea Roman, and she started with the Ouija board too. Dr. Catherine Riedel also looked at the Seth material and got involved in channeling through the Ouija board. Anyway, it seems like Jane Roberts started the channeling movement, using the Ouija board as one approach to it, one way to get into it, and she's credited by the sources that are non-Krishna sources, books dealing with New Age movement, like as being the one who started the channeling movement. Right. Tying in with Seth, and you also have a mention here of Michael. Who's this Michael? Chelsea Yarbrough, compiled a number of these messages received over a number of years and this is another group of individuals who got together and they channeled through the Ouija board or they made their own board because they were using it so much and it was so much wear and tear on their own board they made their own board to stand up under the messages. But she wrote, actually she compiled messages from Michael, which came out in 1979, and more messages from Michael, which came out in 1986, and Michael's people in 1988. And then others started claiming that they were channeling Michael, and as others also claimed to be channeling Seth. So you get started in this area, and it influences others, and it just goes well beyond You know, these messages permeate the Internet. They have Usenet groups dedicated to channeling, and in there you can find Messages from every quarter including I believe it's commander core who channels an alien then you have Over in London the Theria society headed up by dr. King who says that there's a group of aliens headed up by an alien named a Therius and they're at war with a group of black magicians here on earth and they want King to encourage his fellow humans to allow these aliens to channel through them so they can defeat the black magicians. And you find all kinds of strange things including, I believe it's Jack Scallion out in California who uses channeling to prophesy about cataclysmic events that are taking place. But generally overall, what is the message that is coming through these entities that are being channeled? What are they saying about Jesus? What are they saying about, you know, the state of humanity and the direction that humanity is supposed to go? I think you can generalize and also be specific. Every channel message that I've read that's been in print or whatever form it was in is a basic denial of everything that a Christian would hold. And that's universally what you find. John Weldon found the same thing. Every single channel message that he looked at, and others I've talked to too, is a basic denial of Christianity. Often it's the message that you are God and there's a new age coming. It's just really a new age movement type of thing that's coming through. I tell students, the one thing that's clear, it's a hundred percent denial of biblical Christianity. Now this would include as well messages that are supposedly channeled by Jesus himself. Oh, in some cases Jesus, in quotes, is communicating and his message is not the Jesus of Scripture. You're listening to Christian Answers Live. I'm Lee Meckley and all this discussion tonight is coming off of our General topic of the Ouija board, the things that can result from the use of the Ouija board and so forth and so on. One of the things I've been itching to talk about is something that Larry mentioned earlier in the list that he read off of symptoms that are sometimes related to Ouija board use and one of those was poltergeist activity. Now, Edmund, Is there such things as ghosts? I mean, I don't seem to find anything in scripture that would support the idea of ghosts, humans who have deceased and who continue to laud here on earth to take care of unfinished business. What is the biblical perspective that we should take on that issue? Well, the biblical perspective is that when people die, Spirit is not left behind to wander about, but you have either going to heaven or to hell. And what we call poltergeist activity, that's the usual term for it, would be demonic activity. That would be our interpretation of what is taking place. In that scripture, you have, of course, the dead are not behind to wander about to do certain things, like so many would say. Well, I was just looking here on page 123 of your book. You have court cases and newspaper reports. You have a subheading here called A Haunting Case involving the LA Times and the experiences of Jackie Hernandez and her two-year-old son. Could you Just for the listeners out there, could you elaborate a little bit on this story? And we'll just kind of get into some of these cases and mention some more about poltergeists and ghosts and things of that nature as we go. Well, this was an article I came up with more recently because I collected a number of the other stories that go back to the 30s or 40s or 20s or whenever the specific time was. And I was reading the LA Times, it mentioned this haunting case which took place down in San Pedro. And to make a long story short, Jagger and Anvis and their two-year-old son were the subjects of visitations that would be called generally hauntings. And this kind of thing did continue as they moved up to Kern County. And I'm just looking at the section here. Yeah, I'm reading here like it says, quote, the ordeal, Hernandez says, was a grade A waking nightmare replete with strange lights, colored mist apparitions and stinking blood like liquid oozing from the walls, end quote. And she just goes on to I mean, you know, she'd say, quote, the phenomenon began slowly. The cat chased eerie shadows around the house. Voices muttered in the attic. She saw pencils fly out of a pencil holder. She thought she was hallucinating, perhaps because of her pregnancy, end quote. And you know, it just, this reads like a good Vincent Price horror flick, you know? The reason this interested me, I tried to get more information on it, but didn't get any response. It interested me because the Ouija board was mentioned in connection with this because they used the Ouija board to try to find out what was happening. And as I said here, the Ouija board was mentioned twice in the article. They tried to establish why this was taking place, and so they turned to the old device, the Ouija board, two times. And they even mentioned this development up in Kern County, as I recall. For starters, researchers could not get their video cameras to work. Something kept switching off the equipment. Part of the inspiration suggested the investigators try the Ouija board as it began. If you recall, the table began to shake and the session ended when photographer Wheatcraft was thrown against the trailer wall by an invisible force. And so it relates to what might be termed normally haunting experience and trying to check it out and then this kind of thing continuing. uh... at the uh... second location and uh... again the interest here was that they actually consult the Ouija board to find out what was happening and they got this uh... further manifestation uh... at that point it certainly uh... seemed and this is right in the Los Angeles Times newspaper that's why I took it because they wouldn't normally uh... publish an article that didn't have some basis for it. After all, this wasn't a National Enquirer that we were reading here. You've got other cases. Would you like to mention a couple of them? The most interesting was this one that relates to the six AWOL intelligence specialists from Oxford, Germany. They were in the military, six of them, five fellows and one girl. I saw a little article in a paper on it and so I contacted the person who had given a statement to the press, Vance Davis is his name, and Vance Davis said that he and these others were investigating the occult realm and they started with the Ouija board and they started getting all these messages. They worked the board for hours on end, not just one hour but maybe five, ten hours at a time. And they were given all kinds of information and instructions and predictions. And they were told that they should return to the United States to help in the work that was necessary. So they actually deserved their post. And they eventually were found and arrested in the area of Gulf Stream, Florida, which has had UFO sightings. But they definitely were not involved in UFO stuff. He said that it was amazing what was happening to the board, the speed of the messages, the answers that were given, the predictions that were set forth. As you would understand, they were so impressed by what was happening that they had to desert their posts and actually were arrested and discharged from the military on the basis of what they'd done as a result of following Widgey's instructions. It must have been very powerful to them, what was coming through. Do you see any connection here between messages coming from the Ouija board and, let's say, these so-called contacts with alien beings from UFOs? I didn't bring it into my book, but there are to look for a UFO, and the two are connected where they're told to look for the UFO, and there's a UFO connection. Those two are in UFO cults, we call them. who use the Ouija board to make contact, and that's the way they do make contact with what they think are UFOs. Well, all this is kind of fascinating. I always get into that mysterious, eerie stuff. That's why they call it the occult, because it's the secret and hidden things, you know, from the Latin. But anyway, this reminds me of when I was, oh, it must have been 13, 14 years ago. I used to work in a Tom Thumb grocery at a, you know, bakery. And I worked with, you know, a lot of Secular people and things like this not not Christians, and I'll never forget this one one guy who was just kind of an average Joe He didn't believe in anything basically but I mentioned the Ouija board to him one time and boy got like of a Ghost-like look on his face, and he said his his brother had a Ouija board And he told me this story, but he went way out of his way to say you better you know you'll never believe me and all this kind of stuff and but I finally was able to get out of him because I was so curious you know over time and It's funny how here you can have a secular person and they have a little story that's kind of like a supernatural type of story when they really don't believe in the supernatural. They're kind of like atheists. He did say he believed in ghosts after this experience with the Ouija board. He said he went over there to his brothers and he was just spending the night with them and all of a sudden they were just sitting around, I think he said, in one room listening to the radio and the radio went off by itself. And his brother just started saying, it's that stupid ghost again with that Ouija board. And right at that moment, his brother seemed to be hit with an invisible force, this guy was telling me, which knocked the wind out of him. And he didn't say so much after that. But the whole experience, and he had a few other things he said. I don't remember now. It was many years ago. But it was interesting that here was a secular man that I knew for years, and he would have a story like this related to the Ouija board. It's just that he had this little story that he said no one would believe him on. Now Edmund, didn't the British Psychical Society denounce Ouija boards? Yes, the interesting thing is often you get the leading denouncers Before me, a little treatment from the Psychic News. It was published September 21st, 1968, and they bring up the Psychical Society. A front page article in the Psychic News, a noted spiritualist newspaper, And their warning, unless urgent action is taken, thousands of children will find a potentially dangerous psychic game in their Christmas stockings this year. It goes on to mention some Ouija boards. They say it can be mentally hazardous. It mentions mental disturbances. It could seriously disturb the mind and possibly cause fears and phobias in the unconscious. And then it mentions the Society for Psychical Research, a member, Simon Edmonds, expressing a personal opinion, told me that as reported last week, any responsible person, whatever his views on the origin of the Ouija board message, would be in agreement that this is not a game for children. And that's probably the reference you were thinking about. Have there been documented cases where it has caused people to become mentally unstable, leading perhaps to insanity, to suicide or to kill? Yes, I have some of those included in my book, but I'll tell you what I found. I was working on a book dealing with groups in general and I went back to Virginia Beach, And I went to the Edgar Cayce Foundation. I'm not endorsing Edgar Cayce's Association of Research and Enlightenment. That's another cult I have in my book. But I was able to read letters there from people who had been involved in Ouija board use, and some of them were written from medical institutions. And they told how they got involved with the board. They were saying people should be warned not to get involved in this, but they were actually written from either mental institutions or people who had been returned after they finished their stay there and it was Ouija board related. That's why I wanted to go back and read the letters. They wouldn't send them to me, I had to read them there, so the letters were brought out and I was able to read them there in the library, but there were a number of cases that related to mental illness. As my book brings out, there are some cases of suicide. I mentioned the case of some girls in Zurich, Switzerland back in 1990, who were told by the board that they were going to live only until the age of 18, or they would die before the age of 18, and so they, being 13 to 14, others were involved, but only two jumped, and they jumped to their deaths off a building a few hundred feet down, and they died. There are other cases like that where people take what comes through seriously and as a result of that it gives them reason to make a decision which can be very, in this case, fatal. Now this Ouija board is, as we've already mentioned before, it's very populous. It's only second to Monopoly with Christmas time coming on. What kind of numbers are we talking about here? Parker Brothers produces this thing. I guess we're talking in the millions. Do you have any idea what the statistics are in sales for the Ouija board on a yearly basis from Parker Brothers, or what the sales are around Christmas time? Do you have any information like that? As I indicated, I asked them the question, and they didn't give an answer, but I have some figures I can quote. When Parker Brothers took it over, for the first and only time beat Monopoly, 2.3 million to 2.1 million sales. From other figures sales were 400,000 700,000 the customer relations Person mentioned figures at least sometime during the past since 67 2 million But they didn't give any any definite figures beyond these things I've mentioned and the other source I looked into so we're talking about high hundreds of thousands possibly a At least there are some years where they've been up to two million boards. But when you figure that and figure out how many people can get involved as a result of those, Plus the ones that have been sold every year, you've got a lot of potential out there for getting involved. And they're only $15 and any little child can walk into a toy store or to a five and dime store and purchase one of these. And you know sometimes parents will buy them and have no idea what is happening or what will happen. In some cases I've had letters from people where a deacon or an elder gave a board to another family in the church. as a Christmas present or some other occasion. You know, this reminds me so much of the Scripture, and of course after our next break we'll get into this in more detail, but in 2 Corinthians chapter 11, verses 13 through 15, it says, For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light, Therefore it is no great thing that his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness whose end shall be according to their works." Now this reminds me of, here you've got something packaged like a children's toy, and it's a deadly trap. It's the devil's tool himself, it almost looks like, to entrap people, but it's packaged so nicely. I mean, Parker Brothers, you know? And just like these ministers of righteousness are really the angels, you know, false apostles and deceitful workers here in this other context in 2 Corinthians chapter 11. Now, I wanted to make the point that The Ouija board in and of itself, I don't believe, is dangerous. But it's what you do with the Ouija board. Any time that you open yourself up to contact with spiritual entities, something may just happen. And I wanted you to comment on that, Edmund. Yes, this is, like I said, a little paraphrase of a quote I have right before me. Ed Lurie and Warren said the same thing, or the Ouija is nothing by itself, it's just a pressed piece of board with an alphabet on it. Same effect can be had with an upside-down wine glass and a wax table. But in either case, it's a medium for communication. In other words, it's what you use the object for. You use the Ouija board, you give permission for an unknown spirit to communicate with you. Would you open up the front door to your house and let in anyone who felt like it? Of course not. Right. Yet that's exactly what you're doing on a supernatural level. He said many times, doors have got to be open before Moses activity can occur. The Ouija board is one way to do it. People say, oh, the board just pressed Masonite. That's right, but it's also a way of communicating and the board doesn't have any magic in it. then get involved in it and use it as a means of communication. Now there are some things that float around that I mean obviously are false about the Ouija board that are legendary in proportion like the I guess the one that I'm the most familiar with that I've heard so often is that each Ouija board contains a demon and that if you throw the board in the fire the demon will scream and hiss and evaporate. That's just some of the wild stories but You know, we're not trying to come from this from a sensationalistic perspective. We just want people to be forewarned that this is not just a simple game, but that in fact that it is dangerous. I would like to quote two sources here because they're non-Christian sources. One is notoriously non-Christian, Manly P. Hall. He was the founder of the Philosophical Research Society. And he would really be completely removed from anything Christian in his position. And I ran across an article he wrote in his publication, Horizon, back in 1944. And I mention 1944 because he says during the last 25 years, he mentions having a lot of personal contacts with people, people who had dabbled with the board. Out of every hundred such cases, now these are cases that are referred to him, at least 95 are worse off for the experience. Some have suffered years of personal unhappiness as a penalty for the disorganization which this little table has brought our lives. I know of broken homes, estranged families, and even suicides that can be traced directly to the source. In some cases, health has suffered seriously, in others the psychic dabbling has led to serious financial losses. The remaining five out of every hundred actually secured information which was valuable or important to them. Even in these cases, however, the Ouija board was not solution in any general way. And the interesting thing is these people receiving all these messages from, he says, Jesus and Buddha and Plato and various angels and archangels, such communication, of course, overwhelms the recipient and works havoc with his ego because he thinks, well, look, I'm connected to that. And so he says here, I have examined a great number of these awful revelations, and while they may bear the authentic signature of some great person, the content always belies the signature. They're perfectly honest persons when convinced that they have been ordained by the spirit world to work in their time. Great earth solutions developed evangelical zeal and the result is disastrous in every sense of the word. Now here's a person who's not within the Christian camp at all, but he says, this is dangerous. and all the things he mentioned, suicide and broken homes, etc, etc. And the reason I put quotes like this in, because many times people say, oh, that's just you Christians, you know, you're just off the wall with this stuff. But so many of the quotes I was able to gather were completely removed from the Christian camp. They would be anti-Christian. Right. I would like to, as we get near the conclusion of our show, I'd like to center in on your final chapter here in your book. the biblical view of demons, demonic activity, and possession. And I really love this list here you have. I don't like what they do, but I like the way you have it listed out here with the scripture verses on page 175 of demonic activities. I'd just like to take a moment here to read some of this and then start to have you talk more about this this demonic perspective here as it relates to the Ouija board. Anyway, you have listed here about demonic activities. One, they sometimes promote idolatry. You have Acts 16, 16 and other verses. Two, since Satan is not omnipresent, they are necessary to him to extend his power. Ephesians 6, 11 and 12. They can cause mental disorders. Luke 9, verse 39. They can inflict physical ailments, Matthew 9, 32, 33. They are sometimes responsible for the dissemination of false doctrine, 1 Timothy 4, verse 1. They may be used of God to carry out His purposes, 1 Kings 22, 22. They sometimes seduce humans into immoral activities, 1 Timothy 4, verses 1-3. They have power to work miracles and signs. to deceive men. Revelation chapter 16 verses 14. They sometimes attempt to instigate jealousy, faction, and pride among believers. James chapter 3 verses 13 through 16. They may impart superhuman strength. Mark chapter 5 verse 4. They sometimes act as fortune tellers and prophets. The damsel who was possessed by a spirit of Python furnishes a New Testament example of this, Acts 16, 16. Many of the familiar spirits of the Old Testament may have been such demons. They exercise their power and influence in human governments, Ephesians 6, 12. They may enter and control human beings, Matthew chapter 12, verse 45. And of course you say here, this last activity of entering and controlling people leads us to examine briefly demon possession in the Bible. Well, Doctor, with some of those activities listed here, do you see, how exactly, let's say someone gets a Ouija board, and we know these demonic activities are associated directly through the occult, and of course the Ouija board falls in that category. What does it take for someone to be playing with the Ouija board? Can they get involved in demonic activities immediately, or does it take a long time? Does it take two weeks? A month? I guess what I'm looking for is what does it take for someone who gets a Ouija board to really get involved and meshed and trapped, let's say in demonic activity, by playing with a Ouija board? Well, the answer would relate to each individual. In some cases I have seen or read where a person using it one time would get involved where they start speaking in other voices and the like. They might have been prepared by something previous to this, but they're vulnerable immediately. Others, it would take a week, two weeks, a month, and they would experience these things that would obviously be demonic working. You can't say it's going to be immediate or it's going to take a long period of time. It depends on the individual. I've seen the immediate and I've seen the long-term involvement bring this kind of a manifestation. that was uh... don't get involved because you might be the one who comes immediately don't get involved at all to begin with but i'm just saying it could be extremely dangerous just like drugs that's exactly what ed warren says a Ouija board is just as dangerous as drugs not to be played with and uh... who knows what will happen one use maybe is it or maybe a period of time nothing happens and suddenly uh... and sometimes what happens you have these manifestations that might sound very benign, and they become worse and worse as time goes on. I'll just cite a book here, The Satan Trap, Danger of the Occult, by Martin Eban. He's not writing as a Christian, but he's writing as a parapsychologist. He's authored many books on this subject. He mentions what we would term in our book progressive entrapment, where you start for kicks and you get information, uh... figure out that burden so there might be a turn uh... where messages become vulgar and abusive and threatening and sometimes uh... the individual then is actually seized uh... possessed uh... taken over and again it can be very short period of time or it can take a little bit longer but uh... you have to look at every case individually to answer that question. Okay, what would you say to, let's say, a Christian family who has a Ouija board in their possession, or maybe they have a relative or something that they know has a Ouija board and they don't realize the danger, what would you counsel them to do? I don't care where they get the information, but I think they should read something like my book or any source, I don't care what it is, to be informed as to what this is so they know what they're dealing with. And then, I would just tell them to renounce it and get rid of it and not have anything to do with it. I sort of like this reference in Acts chapter 19 where it, starting in verse 18, it says, And many that believe came and confessed and showed their deeds, verse 19, many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together and burned them before all men. And they counted the price of them and found it 50,000 pieces of silver. So mildly grew the word of God and prevailed. That's a tremendous reference that covers this whole occult realm. And I've often quoted that because many times people see the light on what they should do and here's the pattern. Denounce it, destroy it, get rid of it. And in some cases they're not going to get any deliverance from that until they do. I've seen cases where people have continued having problems. They found some occult device that used in the past that was present in the home and they got rid of it and the presence, the problems, the obsession, possession, whatever it was, stopped at that point. Edmund Gruss, thank you very much for being on the program. We're out of time and we hope to have you on again sometime. Okay. Check out our websites. BibleQuery.org. This site answers 7,700 Bible questions. HistoryCart.com. This site reveals early church history and doctrine proving Roman Catholicism is not historically or doctrinally viable. MuslimHope.com. This site is a classic refutation of Islam, a counterfeit religion created by Muhammad. Free newsletters are also available.