Welcome back to Knowing the Truth with Pastor Kevin Bowling. Information regarding the resources referenced on today's program can be found at www.knowingthetruth.org. Now, here to continue with today's program is Pastor Kevin Bowling. Well, I'm sure that many of you folks have heard the news yesterday about the political scene and the fact that Ted Cruz has exited the race for the White House, and so he's no longer in the race. And so now it appears that Donald Trump is the presumptive nominee. And so a lot of people are asking then, you know, what do we do now that this has taken place? Well, there was an article in The Blaze, and this article came out, well, early this morning, one something this morning, but it says this, Trump is the presumptive nominee. So where do never Trumpers go now? We spoke with some of the leading voices, they say in the article, but it goes on to say this, Republican front-runner Donald Trump is now the presumptive nominee, but that doesn't mean never-Trumpers who oppose the billionaire are more likely to vote for him in November. When Senator Ted Cruz decided to end his bid for the White House after Trump's decisive victory in Indiana, never-Trumpers were left with virtually no option if they want to vote Republican in November. But for many, preserving the GOP in its current state is not necessarily a priority, despite calls from some former Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal, and Texas Governor Greg Abbott to unify around Trump. So where do the unwavering anti-Trump conservatives go now? And so the article goes on from there, and it's a good question. A lot of folks spoke about that there's no way that they could vote for Donald Trump. I saw another article that was written, this one by Andy Nasselli, Thoughts on Theology, what Andy blogs at. And he says in there, the title of it says, Can you vote for Donald Trump with a clear conscience? And in that blog post that he has there, this came out much earlier this year, but April 5th, But it's still very much appropriate to what we're talking about, especially because Andy just co-authored a book along with J.D. Crowley, who was with me on the broadcast about a week and a half ago or so, two weeks ago at the most. And both Andy Nasselli and J.D. Crowley authored the book Conscience. you know, what it is and how to train it and loving those who differ. So Andy was weaving in the idea then about what he wrote in that book into this particular subject. So we want to talk about that today. Can you, in good conscience, vote for Donald Trump now that he is the presumptive nominee in the GOP party? That's assuming that you're GOP. or that you, you know, are considering voting for Donald Trump, that type of thing. Of course, those are part of our consideration. Help us to, you know, to wade through all of this today is my guest, Dr. Greg Frazier. Dr. Frazier is the professor of history and political studies at the Masters College. And you can check out more about Dr. Frazier and the college itself out at www.masters.edu. Dr. Frazier, it's a pleasure to have you back on the Knowing the Truth radio program. Thank you, Kevin. Good to be here. Well, Dr. Fraser, we've talked around these issues before. Maybe we'll kind of codify a lot of the things that we have said previously about this subject. But the things that we have greatly feared has come upon us. And there's only one man standing and that one man standing now is Donald Trump. And so we've got to look at these things in a lot more earnest. Before it was a little bit of theory before, but now we've got to actually put these things into practice. So give us your thoughts on what has taken place thus far, and then if you don't mind, I think we could start working through what Andy has said in this particular blog post. Yeah, as you said, quite quite well, what we most feared has happened. And I think both of us, when we talked about this before, the candidacy of Donald Trump was what we most feared. And it leaves, I think, a Christian voter in a quandary, leaves us in a difficult position. uh... and i think that there's no excellent option uh... at this point uh... or nothing but uh... bad or at least sketchy options and uh... so it's just a rare it's a real tough situation and we and i've talked about it with my students in class and and they have different views and and if you get you know five christians in a room You'll probably get five different views. It's a tough situation. It's actually a situation that, in one way, I'm grateful for because it forces us to think through these issues and to think through them biblically. You know, in past elections, we didn't have to give this kind of thought to a lot of these things. And so we just, you know, the choice was a bit clearer, and so we could go through. Now it's forcing us to look at the Word of God. Here we are examining a subject like the conscience. And can we, in good conscience, push that lever or check off that box for a man who has such bad character? In fact, that's how Andy starts off this article, and we don't need to spend a lot of time here. I'll just kind of summarize it. But he asked the question, does Donald Trump have good character and policies? And he gives a list here of just a few things. You know, Donald Trump brags about committing adultery. He mocks and disrespects people, women, the disabled, and so forth. He lacks a good pro-life record. In fact, he's not pro-life. He can't even really do a good job at defending the pro-life position. Andy puts down here that he's a con artist when you think about things like Trump University. He's a demagogue. He seems to just be shamelessly proud. He's a boaster. There's nobody about, no question about that. All of these things are beyond question. Everybody knows these things readily about Donald Trump. have good principles and, you know, good judgment. He seems to use, like, these strong arm tactics and so forth. All of that is a given. Would you agree? Yeah, I would. I would argue that most of them, most of the things, though, that he lists here aren't unique to Donald Trump. He's just perhaps more bombastic about it. But most of the candidates that you get for president uh... brag about one thing or another uh... and most of them are shamelessly proud but harsh maybe not maybe not a shamelessly proud but uh... they're certainly self-absorbed uh... and uh... demagogue ish uh... to one extent or another so there's no question that he he is all of these things uh... and I think what makes it kind of different is that he's so bombastic about it. I think he's right, but a lot of it I think is also true of most other candidates for president. And having said that, I'm not saying either that there aren't some things that he has said that I agree with. I did a program about, you know, the idea of his call for a moratorium on Muslims entering the country and so forth and talked about we don't have a good system in place where we can tell who's radicalized and who's not. you know, for the statement itself and the idea of broken borders and deportations and certain things that he has said, which was really his bread and butter in the beginning, that he gave voice to those things. I do agree with his view, at least in principle, what is being talked about there, not maybe in all the ways that he speaks about those things, but in principle, there are points that he makes that I agree with. Are there some of those points that you would agree with as well? Yeah, and the problem is, and this is another problem that we face with the choice between Trump and Clinton, among many problems, but uh... one of the problems is that both of them are first of all they are talking about and promising things that they cannot do uh... the president of the united states is not an emperor uh... despite maybe certain presidents trying to act that way uh... and so much of what donald trump says he will do he cannot do i'd just for one example remember back in one of the debates uh... he had talked about killing all the families of terrorists as well as knowing the terrorists and and someone pointed out well you can't do that because the military won't obey that order he says they will apply tell them and then you had a hundred and fifty generals write a letter saying no we won't uh... and so it's uh... and a lot of the other things that he talks but i will do this i will do this well the congresses has to be in on board to do a lot of those things But what I'm getting at is that he and Hillary both have a government-first sort of answer to everything and also a top-down sort of notion, a sort of imperial presidency approach to things, which I think is not good. Yeah, and that's the context in which all of this has taken place. We have a president who is doing those types of things without a Congress that is stopping him from doing those types of things. They're allowing him, they're allowing the executive branch to have far more power than it was ever designed to have. And this feeds into part of the angst that we see with Americans across the country that, again, Trump fed into. And my thinking, as I was thinking through the candidates, I kept saying, even though I agreed with those certain points that Trump was making, at least in principle, I said, can I get those same things without getting Donald Trump? It was my thinking. And so I reasoned that I could. The wall and the idea of building the wall, it's actually already passed in Congress. It's something that they've already dealt with. It's not something unique to Donald Trump. There's others that have talked about the wall. They just never do it. So there may be another way to get that wall without getting Donald Trump is what I reasoned as I went through and so forth. When I say a wall, I mean at least fixing the immigration issue and actually enforcing that. I think that there was a way that I could have that without having all of the other bad things from Donald Trump. The second point that Andy brings out here, I think, is this is really important. He brings out what does voting entail? And there's, for me, where the real rub is at. We can have just this very utilitarian mindset about it that, well, I've just got to decide who's the lesser of two evils, and that's the one I'm going to do. But in this case, especially, it seems to be highlighted that when I pull that lever, I'm endorsing what Donald Trump is and what he stands for. And that's the part I can't do. I can't add my blessing to all of these other things that he represents. Would you agree? Yes and no. You know, I teach political studies, and in political science, there there is this concept of strategic voting versus sincere voting. And sincere voting means you vote for the person that you really like best, and strategic voting is when you vote in such a way as to perhaps keep someone out that you really don't like. You vote in some way that the person you really like can't win, and so you vote in some way to affect the results. uh... and i think back to two thousand election uh... in florida when we had a big kerfuffle in the supreme court decision of what not will know that would have been necessary if the ninety seven thousand ralph nader voters in florida had voted strategically rather than sincerely they knew that their guy couldn't win they shared al gore's views more than they did george bush by a wide margin but they voted sincerely for nadir rather than strategically for gore gore lost florida by five hundred and thirty seven votes that's always might think that's a good thing but my point is for a nadir voter uh... it didn't work to his advantage uh... he would have much preferred to have al gore uh... when the presidency to george bush and so strategic voting might have been a better idea or The classic example, going all the way back to the beginning of American history, which I also teach, you have this huge competition between Alexander Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson, who disagreed on everything except the greatness of George Washington. And when it comes to the election of 1800, when the election goes to the House of Representatives, it's either Thomas Jefferson or Aaron Burr. and hamilton actually goes to the federalists and says look you know how much i can't stand thomas jefferson but we need to vote for jefferson because the alternative is burr and burr is much worse than burr has no character and whatnot and so he actually encouraged the federalists to choose jefferson which is how jefferson won the election of eighteen hundred burr of course later was on was tried for treason for trying to take over the united states by force and he showed his lack of character and what not uh... so these are a couple of examples of strategic voting or one case in which you didn't do strategic voting in another in which you did and this is this is an option you know it in the felonies argument he mentions that this is this is an option i think that that christians can probably fall on either side of this because it all depends As I see it, I could be wrong. I was wrong once several years ago. As I see it, Christians could fall on either side of this, largely on the basis of the issue of abortion. To me, as we've talked about before, abortion is not just a political issue. It's something beyond mere politics. And so it, if you allow me to say this, trumps other issues to a large extent. I know that if Hillary Clinton is elected president and judgeships come up, she's going to pick pro-abortion judges. I don't know what Donald Trump will do. He says he will pick pro-life judges. There's at least a chance that he will. And so to me, that's a really clear, important distinction between the two that may allow me to hold my nose and vote for Trump as a vote against Hillary Clinton. Okay, the strategy view, you know, and looking, you know, at the strategy part of that, it seems that right now, again, the American people are in no mood to think strategy because they seem to have this sense that they've been burned so often in the past. They keep being told, you know, just do this, we're setting up for something else. It was like, you know, the Buffalo Bills when I was in Buffalo, you know, they would have these horrible seasons and then they would just say afterwards that we're rebuilding, we're rebuilding. and you can only do this for so many seasons, and then you just go, you know, this just isn't happening. And so I feel like people are at that point, they're like, yeah, all you conservatives told us last time, well, if we just had the House, if we just had the Senate, if we just now, if we just have the presidency, and every time you tell us this, then nothing actually gets done. We have both the House and the Senate, and all you guys did was you just went along with Barack Obama and anything that he wanted to do, and it made very little difference at all that our people were in there. So I sense this frustration during this time that they're in no mood to think about strategy going forward. Would you agree? Yeah, I agree that that's the viewpoint that people have. I think it's a little unfair. I understand and I share some of the criticism of the Republicans and what they've done or haven't done since they have been in office, but there was an interesting piece by David Harsanyi a week ago in which he says, the title of it is, the GOP has been bad, but not as bad as you think. and he suggests that he'd be less a number of things that uh... the republicans have actually done in congress to try and block the president uh... did and it emily makes a decent case that the republicans have actually taken a number of actions to do whatever what they can to block the president but they can't uh... do everything they want to do without the presidency and sold I agree that the prevailing viewpoint is that the Republicans haven't done anything, even though we voted them into the House and the Senate, but I'm not sure it's entirely fair. And if people really understand how the system works, you can't do it do much or everything you want to do is put it that way you just control the congress or you just control the presidency you have to control both in order to do whatever you want to do uh... and so i mean that's all uh... president obama was able to get obama care through as he controlled both the congress and the white house and uh... so it's short of that you can slow things down that the opponents want to do or you can accomplish some things but you can't do all that you want to do and uh... so what when president obama was reelected and put in two thousand twelve uh... that basically prevented the republicans from doing all the things that people want the republicans to do now could they have done a little bit more to try and block the president uh... perhaps but it's it's difficult and uh... they certainly made the effort they have passed they passed repeal of obama care uh... dozens of times uh... they've uh... taken the president to court to uh... to uh... stop his executive order concerning uh... immigration and successfully done that they uh... block the dream act when it when you try to get it through congress which in which uh... caused him to then do it by executive order and so on. I mean, they've done some things, but they can't do all that they want to do unless they control both the House, the Senate, and the presidency. Well, Andy ends his argument then here in his article, and you can read it out at andynaseli.com, but he talks then about the conscience. And basically he says, you know, he defines the conscience as your conscience is what you believe is right and wrong. And he says that, in part of this, that you can actually calibrate your conscience. Your conscience isn't infallible. It is tied to what you believe about things. And so we've got to understand the scriptures and bring the scriptures to bear in order to calibrate our conscience so that it is more in line with the things of God. But he basically says that you should never go against your conscience, that sin, if you don't believe that you can vote for him, for Donald Trump in this case, without violating your conscience, then you shouldn't do it. Your final word on that point? I agree with him. And he has four options here in terms of will your conscience condemn you? uh... but i there might be a fifth option here that he might want to ask as to where your conscience condemn you uh... he says we are conscious content condemn you for not voting where your conscience condemn you for voting for hillary where your conscience condemn you for voting for donald trump where your conscience condemn you for vote for voting for someone else who can't win there might be a fifth option there which is will your conscience condemn you for voting against hillary and i think uh... a case can be made i'm i'm undecided on this as i said last time i'm still struggling with it but uh... their package can be made you can vote that you could you could vote against hillary by voting for trump uh... and so in that sense you are not endorsing trump you are trying to block someone who's going to put uh... pro-abortion judges on the court that are going to dominate the court for the next twenty thirty years and so i don't i don't know if it's uh... i'm i'm undecided i don't have the answer on this on by but i think that's a possible fifth option that uh... that might be that might work on my conscience. I'm supposed to have the answers, but I don't have this one. Who else you got over there? You got somebody else there? No, just kidding. You're absolutely right, and this is what I meant in the beginning, where it is driving us to think through these things, to really look at what are all the things that need to be brought to bear, in order to work through this in a way that we can live with ourselves afterwards and feel that we have not violated our conscience in whatever we decide to do. And I think that, in that sense, it's a very good thing for us, that it forces us to go to the Word of God, it forces us to seek God's face, to think and think deeply about these things, rather than just going through the motions. And for that part, at least, I'm grateful for what is taking place. Well, Dr. Fraser, thank you so much for your comments here today and helping us to think through this in a way that I think is important for each and every one of us. We really appreciate the work there that you do personally at the Master's College, but also we appreciate the college in general. So thank you very much. Thank you. I hope I didn't muddy the water more than I cleared it. Not at all. Not at all. I don't think this issue is going to be going away anytime soon, so we'll take those thoughts and build them into our process that we're going through here to try to come to the right conclusion as to what we as believers in particular should be doing on this issue. You can read Andy's article out there at andynaselli.com, as I mentioned. I also read from an article in the very beginning from the Belais as well. You can find out more about Dr. Fraser, who is the Professor of History and Political Studies, and more about the Masters College out at the masters.edu, masters.edu. Remember, Jesus said, you shall know the truth, and the truth will make you free. We'll see you next time. You're listening to Knowing the Truth. 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