Everyone needs a pastor. A visit to The Pastor's Study brings biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and help from those with proven experience in Christian service. We want you to be part of the program during the 30 minutes ahead. To visit The Pastor's Study today, text your question at 516-367-0391. Again, that's 516-367-0391. Now welcome to today's visit to The Pastor's Study with Pastor Bill Shishko. And I am your host, Pastor Bill Shishko. We invite your calls for the Visit to the Pastor study today. If you're listening on Saturday, the live call-in number is 631-955-5400, or as you've heard, you can text your questions any time in the week, 516-367-0391. C.S. Lewis's famous book, The Screwtape Letters, puts you into the mind of the devil, represented by his highly placed assistant, Screwtape, the uncle of Wormwood, a young devil who's learning the ropes, so to speak. Uncle Screwtape begins letter 25 with words that penetratingly apply to any age. Now remember that the patient is a new Christian, Uncle Screwtape is instructing nephew Wormwood in another way to subvert the faith of the young Christian to whom he's assigned for his devilish mission. Well, here's how the letter begins. My dear Wormwood, the real trouble about the mindset your patient is living in is that it is merely Christian. They all have individual interests, of course, but the bond remains mere Christianity. Now, what we want, if people become Christians at all, is to keep them in the state of mind I call Christianity and, you know, Christianity and the new psychology, Christianity and the new order, Christianity and faith healing, Christianity and psychical research, Christianity and vegetarianism, Christianity and spelling reform. If they must be Christians, let them at least be Christians with a difference. Substitute for the faith itself some fashion with a Christian coloring work on their horror of the same old thing. Then Uncle Screwtape adds this astounding insight about mixing mere Christianity, the same old thing, if you will, with something else, back to letter 25, the horror of the same old thing. is one of the most valuable possessions we, that is, the devil and his followers, one of the most valuable things we have produced in the human heart, an endless source of heresies in religion, folly in counsel, infidelity in marriage, and inconstancy in friendship." Now, I can't read this section of the screwtape letters, and especially that last sentence. without thinking about the penchant today to add adjectives to the title Christian, our modern version of C.S. Lewis's Christianity and that's especially true in current discussions about gender, sexuality, physical attractions in Christianity, heterosexual Christians, trans Christians, non-binary Christians, SSA Christians, one wonders If we should also use phrases like lying Christians, cheating Christians, hateful Christians, covetous Christians, these phrases really are a direct challenge to Paul's words about the powerful saving grace of God. Now, you can read these for yourself in the sixth chapter of the New Testament book of 1 Corinthians. Here you'll read, Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Don't be deceived. neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy. nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." Now listen carefully. And such were some of you, but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. God's all-powerful saving grace really changes people and makes them not Christians and something, but Christians, what C.S. Lewis would approvingly call mere Christianity. In last week's program, Revoice and God's Voice, Rev. Al Baker did an outstanding job opening up the real, full gospel and explaining how that gospel can take the worst of sinners in any category of sin and transform them into the finest of saints. And I urge you to listen to that program as, well, something of a foundation for today's visit to the Pastors Study. Today we'll be considering the specific question, can I be a gay Christian? Can I be a true Christian? and still identify in one way or another with a homosexual lifestyle. Now, you may be shocked by the very question, but for people who are struggling with sexual issues that reach to their innermost beings and their deepest drives, even as they try to work out the implications of living for Christ as both Savior and Lord, well, the answer is not as easy as it may seem to those of us who don't share those struggles. My guest on today's visit to the pastor's study is Tim Geiger, president of Harvest USA, which in my opinion is one of the finest organizations helping people in our sexually charged society work through the many, many issues connected with sexuality in a fallen world. And in just a moment, I'm going to let Tim tell you a little more about himself, and then he's going to help us work through a Biblical answer to the question, can I be a gay Christian? Again, we invite your questions. Now, if you're listening on Saturday, you can call 631-632-7000. 955-5400, or you can text your questions anytime, 516-367-0391. Rev. Tim Geiger, President of Harvest USA. Hey, welcome again to a visit to the pastor's study. Well, thank you so much, Bill. It's a delight and a blessing to be here again. Great having you with us again, Tim. Hey, Tim, tell us a little bit about yourself and how you came to work for Harvest USA. Sure. I came to Harvest USA myself for ministry 22 years ago. At that point, I had been a young man, and I believe I was a Christian at that time, but I had been struggling with same-sex attraction for about 20 years. And the Lord did a tremendous work in my life. I'm sure we'll talk about some of the core issues that He addressed in my life. pretty similar to what most people struggling with different kinds of sexual uh... struggles experience uh... but he gave me grace to begin to walk in repentance and and live in increasing joy in my union with christ and uh... became a volunteer and came on staff in two thousand three and uh... the lord uh... now has been leading the ministry Tim, what's your training to help people work through ... I mean, we've got bundles of issues connected with human sexuality. What kind of training did you get to bring you to this point with Harvest USA? Well, there's a bunch of training. My undergrad work is in social work, and so I have some background in kind of a secular view of what human personality and psychology is all about. but um... all of my training is through westchester seminary i i have an empty uh... through that seminary uh... and uh... i did a lot of training while at westminster and afterwards with cc yet counseling education foundation uh... specifically in areas of uh... of addictions and and sexual brokenness You know, which is an organization, again, we highly commend to you, the Christian Counseling and Educational Foundation. Tim, you mentioned core issues as we're dealing with sexual brokenness and the grace of God. Talk to us about those core issues. Sure. Whenever someone struggles with any pattern of sin, Bill, whether it's same-sex oriented, heterosexual, or even non-sexual sin, The Bible tells us that the reason we struggle with those particular patterns of sin is because of idolatry. Jesus says in Mark 7 and in a parallel passage in Matthew 15 that it's not what you do that makes you unclean. Everything that makes you unclean is already present in your heart. And in other places in Scripture, particularly in James chapter 1, we see that that problem is idolatry. There are desires that we desire more than God Himself. And those are the things that lead us to sin. And for the sexual sinner, the issue isn't even sexual desire. The issue is generally for more benign things, like affirmation, or comfort, or control, or intimacy, or being a part of a community. Those are things that are often at the core of a same-sex struggler's struggle. And those were the things that were at the core of mine. Tim, is it right to put sexual sin in a different category than, say, covetousness or stealing? The reason I ask that is, I mean, sexual drives go to the very heart of our being. We're made for that kind of intimacy. So does that warrant putting sexual sin in a different category or not? Well, I mean, Scripture tells us that sexual sin is a different type of sin, and we need to be careful because Scripture doesn't say that sexual sin is a worse or a more damnable type of sin than other kinds of sin. you know, especially the passage in 1 Corinthians 6, where Paul tells us that the man who sins sexually sins against his own body. The context within which Paul makes that statement is, he's just said that there is an analogy between marriage and our relationship with Christ, and there's an analogy between sex and our relationship with Christ. And so what Paul is saying there is that having sex outside of the context that God designed us to enjoy that wonderful gift does violence to our personhood and to our relationship with Christ himself. In a distinct way. All right, so can a person be a quote-unquote gay Christian? Why or why not? That's the question of the hour, right? So I think it depends what someone means by saying they're a gay Christian. First, let me just put my cards on the table and say I'm not comfortable with that term at all. I never encourage people to refer to themselves as gay Christians. But there are some people who say I'm a gay Christian because same-sex attraction has been my experience for years, and that's how I view myself as relating to other people in a straight world. I view myself as being different than they are. And so, you know, to someone starting out on a journey of repentance, I wouldn't make that the shibboleth that keeps them out of the Church. You know, I would hope over the course of time that that person would realize there is no value in using the adjective gay to refer to yourself, because that's not part of your true identity. Christian is your true identity. Yeah, mere Christianity, as C.S. Lewis put it. Right, right. How would that view, Tim, differ from those who just, without any qualification, basically say, I'm a gay Christian? Yeah, so there are some people in the Church who call themselves gay christian because they believe that their their gay desires their homosexuality is and endemic part of their identity it's it is something that will never change there's some people who say that a a gay orientation is something that will continue into uh... the new creation uh... and there's no evidence uh... in scripture at all to defend that position homosexuality is sinful behavior. Someone who experiences same-sex attraction is experiencing a distorted attraction that exists only because of the fall into sin, and it's something that will not only disappear, it'll vaporize in the new creation, but it's something that the Holy Spirit gives followers of Christ the ability to overcome in this life. You know, that's a fascinating insight, Tim. I've often wondered, in heaven, in the new heavens and the new earth, there's no marriage or giving in marriage anyway. And that's because our greatest intimacy and desire, in the fullest sense of the word, is caught up with our God forever. But something to dwell on. My guest today is Reverend Tim Geiger, who is president of Harvest USA. We're dealing with, can a person be a gay Christian? We're going to broaden this in a moment. and talk about personal and church ministry to those with sexual difficulties. But first, this message from the voice of A Visit to the Pastors Study. It's not enough to listen to pastors on the radio or to watch them on television. Everyone needs a biblically faithful pastor and everyone needs a biblically faithful church. A Visit to the Pastor's Study is a ministry of the Orthodox Presbyterian Churches in the metropolitan New York area. We're no substitute for a faithful pastor in a local church, but we are a supplement. Visit our website, www.visitthepastorsstudy.org, and you can bring the ministry of this program right to your electronic device. Here you'll find archives of past programs, a weekly message from Pastor Bill's Pastors Post, helps for pastors, helps for congregation members, material for officer training, and much more. That's www.visitthepastorsstudy.org. And we also invite you to contact the host of this program, Pastor Bill Shishko. You can email him at visitpastorbill at gmail.com. He'd love to hear from you so that he can bring his pastoral ministry to you personally. That's visitpastorbill at gmail.com. Remember, everyone needs a pastor. And now back to today's edition of A Visit to the Pastor's Study. Your host, Pastor Bill Shishko, today's topic, Can I Be a Gay Christian? My guest, Reverend Tim Geiger, President of Harvest USA. I encourage you to look at the Harvest USA website. Very easy, HarvestUSA, that's all one word, dot org, and you'll find a wealth of resources to help you as we deal with the many sexual issues in our culture today. Remember, again, you can text your questions any time in the week. The program is basically developed by your questions, 516-367-0391, and you can call my study, 516-593-1507. Tim, talk with us more about the place of the church. helping people change into new creatures in Christ. And one specific thing in this, tell us how churches can be more inviting to those struggling with sexual sins of any sort. Sure, and this is something that I'm incredibly passionate about, Bill. Part of my own story is I grew increasingly discouraged, you know, 22, 25, 30 years ago, because I was struggling with with same-sex attraction and i didn't i didn't want to go on struggling i i wanted help and yet i didn't perceive that my church was uh... a place that could help me and so very quickly some of the things that we encourage churches to do is to acknowledge the fact people in the church real christians struggle with sexual temptation and with sexual sin you know paul tell that that we will not experience any temptation except that which is common uh... and so you know if if pastors and leaders can be honest about that and encourage people who are struggling even with things that uh... we in the church often see as is being different things like same-sex attraction or gender dysphoria uh... if they would encourage them to come uh... and and find that leaders in the church are able to sympathize with them and are able to walk with them to the throne of grace. That's a key thing. The second thing is focusing on what we mentioned just a moment ago before the break, that these are not intractable sexual issues. These are not issues of permanent personhood. These are issues of idolatry. And Christ gives grace for people to walk in repentance from all kinds of of idolatry and other kinds of sin. And so there is hope for people who are struggling sexually. And we just need to name that in the church and invite people to find grace and mercy to help. I mean, our Lord Jesus did say, come to me, all you who labor and heavy laden, and I'll give you rest. I've sometimes said, when people get bothered by this in the Church, that's like people getting bothered that sick people go to a hospital. So let me mention just one last way in which the Church really needs to step up, and this is not more important than proclaiming the truth of Scripture, but It's a very close second, and that is the Church needs to be a family. It needs to be the body of Christ, and we genuinely, genuinely rather, and authentically need to love people who are struggling sexually. The average same-sex struggler feels as though he or she is radically different and just doesn't fit in with the straight world, and that's one of the reasons why the gay world seems like such an attractive option. because they offer, you know, it isn't always legitimate, but they offer a sense of community and a sense of fellowship where the Church often seems to fail in those areas. Yeah, community. That's so important. God made us for community. Tim, what is ministry to those affected by the various forms of sexual brokenness? What does that look like? I think you've sort of touched on it here, but expand that a little bit more. Yeah, so I think it really takes the form of authentic friendship and discipleship. What people who struggle sexually need is not strategies to stop sinning sexually. What they need is discipleship. They need to understand the answer to the question, what difference does it make that Jesus died for my sins? You know, in the particular ways in which I struggle, what difference does his work make for me? And, you know, if we take Scripture seriously, Scripture like 2 Corinthians 5, which says, if you're in Christ, you're a new creation, how does that work out practically in the life of a same-sex struggler? Through discipleship, and authentic friendship, we need to help sexual strugglers figure out those answers over the course of time. Yeah, get through the cliches and unpack that to people. Tim, tell us, a minute or so left for you, tell us a little bit more about Harvest USA, and especially how you help train church officers and others to help out. Sure. So Harvest USA has been around for 36 years. We were started by 10th Presbyterian Church back in 1983 as an outreach to the gay community in the city, but our ministry has expanded over the course of years, and now every year we work with about 900 people in our two offices and help them to walk in repentance and to find hope in Christ in all kinds of sexual struggle. One of the things that we do as well is we equip the church to to be a place that that walks with people as well we do that through helping the church uh... learn how to talk about what scripture says about sex sexuality and gender we we talk with the church about how to disciple people who are struggling and we also talk to the church about ways that you can be proactive in in helping prepare your people to develop a biblical world view on these issues so that they're not taken uh... advantage of by the you know the the the smooth talk that comes to them from the culture saying you can use sex however you want and no one will get hurt HarvestUSA.org, look up the site. Tim, thanks so much for being with us today on a visit to the Pastors Study. Let's take a couple of minutes for the counsel from the Pastors Study. So much of what we're thinking about this month is related to our identity as Christians. I mean, should those who trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior identify themselves heterosexual Christians, homosexual Christians, sexually struggling Christians? I must confess, I don't find any of those terms used on the pages of the New Testament. A Christian is someone who follows Jesus Christ, worships and obeys Him as He's made known in the Bible, and seeks to represent Him in the world. And Christians all struggle with sin. But that sin isn't their defining mark. Our identity, our definition, is in Christ, and He is the only sinless person. So, how do Christians, who all struggle with sin, and Christian churches deal with fallen people in this fallen world? Well, first, Christians in Christian churches must speak the truth, but always in love. The Apostle Paul even coins the phrase, truthing it in love, in Ephesians 4.16. The Word of God very clearly teaches that homosexual practice is contrary to God's good design for sexuality, and that all sinful lusts, not just sexual ones, are to be put to death by the constant work of putting off unrighteousness and putting on righteousness. At the same time, Christians in Christian churches must never give in to hatred of those struggling with any sin or to treating people as untouchable if they engage in certain sinful lifestyles. You see, the demand of love is also the demand to show grace. Second, continued repentance is as much a part of true Christianity as is continued faith. It's dangerous to make peace with any patterns of thinking, feeling, or action that are clearly contrary to God's holy standards for our lives, where to repent of all lack of conformity to, or transgression of, God's standards of righteousness, whether that standard speaks of sexual things or of things like covetousness, sinful anger, lying, disrespect for authorities, or self-righteousness. All of the Christian life is repentance, not false peace treaties with what is at war with God. Jesus' work is to save us from our sins, whatever those sins are. The greatness of the Gospel is not that it makes us comfortable in what we want to do, but that it brings us into conformity to what God wants us to do and what He wants us to be. And it's always what's best for us in eternity and right now. My thanks to Reverend Tim Geiger, President of Harvest USA, for once again being my guest on a visit to the Pastor's Study website, www.harvestusa.org. Remember, Sunday, the Lord's Day, be sure to set apart time to worship the Lord in a church that's faithful to the Word of God. And remember, everyone needs a pastor. You've been listening to this week's A Visit to the Pastor's Study, a ministry of Reformation Metro New York incorporated in the Orthodox Presbyterian Churches of Metropolitan New York and Connecticut. For more information on the program, check out our website at www.visitthepastorstudy.org. That's www.visitthepastorstudy.org. Listen in next week for another Visit to the Pastor's Study. Remember, everyone needs a pastor.