of the debate was from Calvary Chapel and I was really surprised because in the debate he seemed to really not understand what the other side was saying about the nature of about salvation and He did what I've observed over the years, that there is this common misunderstanding among people, among Christians concerning how a person gets right with God. We tend to, when we hold the Bibles, we think Old Testament, New Testament. In the Old Testament, people got right with God through works. And in the New Testament, the gospel comes in, and now, The program of salvation has changed, and so now people get right through the gospel. And I've said over the years, I don't know where this comes from. As far as I am concerned, I think Genesis is pretty clear that Abraham got right with God before the law was given, and he is the prototype of what it means to be saved. Yes, I understand that. We've gone over this many, many times, have we not? This is the argument of Galatians. This is the argument of Romans. And so who's with me so far? This stuff, we should know it really, really, really well. And so this other person who was debating kept asking him, and he just really could not process this idea. And so he kept referring to the Old Testament as the covenant of works. And so when this other person suggested that Hebrews 11, all of these were saved and demonstrated faith. And so this pastor, I was really surprised. I had never heard someone be so explicit in articulating this view. And he said, so you're telling me that these Old Testament saints believed in the gospel before Jesus ever came and died and rose again? There was no gospel yet. How could they have been saved by believing the gospel? And that demonstrated a gross ignorance And I was just really surprised, you know, I'd heard it from individual Christians, but never had I heard it so articulated from an actual pastor. And I was very surprised. And so how does this tie into tonight's study? Because when we talk about the doctrine of the church, we are not restricting the church to the post-Jesus or New Testament times when we talk about, or rather when I describe the church, I am describing, or I am referring to the people of God, the redeemed people of God. And so Grudem's definition is this. The church is the community of all true believers for all time. The church consists of believers from both the Old Testament and New Testament era. That's a pretty straightforward definition. So I'm listening to this debate, and so one side asked the other pastor, who didn't seem to understand this. I guess he had a different view of things. I think he said he was dispensational, and I think that may have played a part in how he saw these things. And this particular other elder from a church asked him, so are you saying that these Old Testament saints are not members of the church? And he said, no, they're not members of the church, because the church isn't until the New Testament. I was like, wow. So anyways, so that's why I introduced the story, because again, this view is very prevalent. And that demonstrates a different that demonstrates a different understanding of what the church is. The church is the community of all true believers for all time. The church consists of believers from both the Old Testament and New Testament era. Everyone with me so far? Now, I want to mention something, and I hope I find it, because I was reading Genesis the other night, And I have often emphasized this point that in the case of Abraham, the word of God doesn't come until Exodus. And what I mean by the word of God, what do you think I mean by the word of God in Exodus? Law, Mount Sinai, the tablets, the inscription, the written law. But that Abraham have the law of God. Now, don't answer very quickly. It's sort of a trick question. Let me just, I don't remember where it is, but let me just do a quick search. Okay, anyone have any comments or questions so far? Brother Len, do you have anything to add? Okay, all right. Let's go to Genesis chapter 26. I think it's the, I just did a search real quick of a keyword. And Genesis 26, I'm not giving the verse just yet. I just want you to, let me find it. Now, this is God speaking to Isaac, and what I want to draw your attention to, I want to draw your attention to what God says about Abraham. What God says about Abraham, and I have often emphasized that we need to, of course, pay attention to all of scripture, But something that should really, really catch our attention even more is when God says something about a particular person. And here's what it says. We'll read one for the sake of context. Genesis 26, verse 1. It reads, now there was a famine in the land besides the former famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went to Gerar to Abimelech, king of the Philistines. And the Lord appeared to him and said, Do not go down to Egypt. Dwell in the land of which I shall tell you. Sojourn in this land and I will be with you and bless you. For to you and to your offspring, I will give all these lands and I will establish the oath that I swore to Abraham, your father. I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and will give to your offspring all these lands. And in your offspring, all the nations of the earth shall be blessed because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. But the written word of God doesn't come until Moses. And yet here, God doesn't just simply say, Abraham obeyed me. Because we might understand that to mean simply, well, of course he obeyed when he said, leave your country, leave your family, go to a land that I will show you. And he did that. But God, apparently, at least from this, Abraham did have a body Even though it may not have been inscripturated, he did have some kind of standard that came from God through which… I'm having trouble trying to not say too much here, but what I am trying to say is that Abraham did have a standard. Do you see that? Can you name one standard? So Abraham is in covenants with God, right? Can you name one particular statute that, circumcision? The pastor's wife is not allowed to answer. No, I'm just kidding. Did anyone else think of circumcision? Yeah, okay, so that's one. So let's read that again. Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statues, and my laws. Go ahead. Coming to the picture. Four or five hundred. I don't know. I'm shooting off the top of my head. I think it's about four or five hundred years. The span of time. Yeah. Genesis. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How many of you have trouble following all the Bible characters and where they are in the timeline? How many of you? Yeah, it's much easier if you understand. This is really, really important. It's much easier to understand where things are in the Bible by understanding the Bible as world history, redemptive history in particular, and understanding the Bible to be a long, long, long story. So once you get that big picture in view, then all of the characters start to fall in place. For example, the historical accounts of the United States. You know, like, for example, when George Washington and Bill Clinton were having a conversation about the Constitution. Exactly. See, what happened there? You immediately understood, well, George Washington was the first president, 1700s. Bill Clinton is 1900s. Man, these guys are, see, your mind immediately were able to place. You know, it was, I think it was Joel Osteen one time, and everybody was making fun of him, and I was, I don't know if it was just a slip up on his part, probably not, but he said something to the effect. He says, I think it was with Moses. No, I think he was saying that God was having a conversation with Noah. I may tell the story all wrong. I'd have to Google it afterwards. And do you remember what I'm talking about? Do you remember what it was exactly? Yeah, he's got his timeline wrong. He said, God told Noah, Noah, you've seen my miracles. Noah, you saw, and he begins to name miracles around a different time period, way in the future. And so, and anyone who has any kind of chronology of the Bible, God would not have said that because Noah, he was already dead by the time these things happened. But people were hitting like and retweet, oh, this is great, and everybody was missing the fact that You know? Yeah, I mean, the only one you could pull off like that is Jesus and Elijah having a conversation, because Elijah comes back. Anyway, that's a whole nother...that actually is in the Bible. But you get it. So the way to...go ahead, Brother Gilbert. We're not taking difficult questions tonight, just real basic. Yeah. Well, well, he obeyed. Yeah, he obeyed. So so yeah, yeah, he obeyed my charge. So when God told Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, that would that would be under. Yeah, so basically, we have different commands from God, and they can be described differently. You have here, charge, commandments, statutes, and laws. So I suppose we could get into some kind of study into the different nuances of meaning. I'm not prepared to do that because I just found this, you know, not discovered it, but it just came to mind the other night when I was reading Genesis. So what is my point in all of this? I do want to tell you not to get the idea that Abraham related to God by faith and that charges, commandments, statutes, and laws had nothing to do with his relationship with God. I think that's what some people envision, and if I've kind of given that idea, then it's been unintentional on my part. When we talk about that Abraham related to God by faith, we're referencing, or I'm referring to his right standing before God, that he didn't earn salvation by keeping God's charges, commandments, statutes, and laws. We're clear on that, right? What does this have to do with the church? This has to do that members of the body or the people of God have always gotten in by faith, whether you have a Bible or not. Did Abraham have a Bible? Why didn't Abraham have a Bible? It wasn't, yeah. Now, some people have challenged that there was no writing during that time, and of course there was. Go ahead. Here's what some people contend, and it has to do that people have what would be a secular worldview, and this worldview imposes things on history that isn't true. For example, some of you might even be guilty of this because we're so conditioned. When we think of history, early history, the beginning of time, the land before time, right? We automatically might default to Neanderthal men. When I was growing up, the Flintstones, carvings in stone and just markings. But the further back you go, the more animal-like the man is, and so he hasn't developed. If you don't believe me, go to History Channel, and they have series on men, the first men. I think there was a promo for a new series they have, and they have these ape-like looking people that are subhuman or homo sapien, and so they're already beginning to stand, and so the idea is that evolution, man has evolved, and the first man, Well, not the first man, but he was more ape-like. And so he hasn't developed the ability to communicate speech and articulate language. He hasn't developed writing skills. He hasn't developed any of that. And so what happens is that worldview gets imposed upon the scriptures And when we think of Noah, we impose that image on Noah, and we wonder, how did Noah build the ark? Was it like the Flintstones and the whole rock? These people were highly intelligent. I mean, if you look at Adam, he's highly intelligent. He is made more in the image of God then, because he existed pre-fall. And he engages in things that we would call the classification of the animals, species. And so he does have the ability to communicate. And so they're very intelligent. They live a long time, several centuries. I mean, we are Neanderthal compared to the first people like Adam. And so how many of you have been guilty of maybe not intentionally, but just thinking back, oh, there's a lot of images that we push on the Bible that simply aren't there. Whenever you see a story of about Abraham depicting him, you have him walking by himself with a cane in the desert. I grew up in Awa Lutze. The population was about 900 something, okay? Now, what did Abraham's camp look like? It looked like the little town of Awa Lutze because of his household. When he goes and rescue Lot, he takes only the trained men, only men. And there's 318 of them. So he has a small army. He's considered a prince. So many of you here now had this image of Abraham by himself in a tent, and there's a tumbleweed. No, there's no tumbleweeds. You get the picture, right? But did you ever picture Abraham as a small town out in the wilderness? That's what I'm saying. We often don't think about these things because we miss these little details. Now, they are self-sustaining. Can you imagine the amount of cattle they would have to, and I mean, we're talking about a, let me just try to put some perspective. You're sitting on your property, you own a few acres, okay, and you see maybe a man and his wife walking around or whatever. You don't feel threatened. But why is the king of the Moabs Well, that's later on. See, I was already doing it. See, I was already doing it. I jumped forward in time. What I'm saying is that Abraham, we're talking about hundreds of people in Egypt. We're talking about a lot of people here, but we often think in small numbers. So anyways, I don't even know how that relates. to what we were talking about. Just this idea that we impose on scripture and that came up about 318 men that went and fought four kings. Here's another one. Abimelech, he has a dispute with Abraham over a well. Why does Abimelech even enter into an agreement with Abraham if he's just some nomad out in the wilderness? because he sees him as a threat. Abraham is a very powerful position. He's already defeated several kings. So you go into covenant with equals versus, you know, who are you? I'll destroy you with my army. No, Abraham is a prince. And so anyways, I don't know what that has to do with the church, but we learned something right now, did we not? Okay. All right. So, Leti, I don't know that I understood your question about I was asking, did Abraham have the word of God? He did, but did he have a Bible? No, it wasn't inscripturated yet. Okay. So, is Abraham a member of the church? Yes. I will make you the father of many nations. Okay, meaning that if you believe like Abraham, You're added into the people of God, and this includes people of all times, of all ethnicities. And so that's what the church is. It's a concept that begins in the Old Testament. Not with Abraham? That's a very good question, Leti. It doesn't begin with Abraham because we know Noah is an example of a man who believed, and he was a righteous man. And the Bible says that it was a righteousness that he had by faith. Noah is before Abraham. So go ahead, Brother Gilbert. I'm glad I did. That's a very good question. Let's go to Genesis 4. So I really do hope you find this discussion interesting and thought-provoking, because sometimes we don't think about these things. Now, do Adam and Eve have the Word of God? Yeah. Okay, so give me an example of a charge that they had from God. Okay, that's an easy one. What other one? Okay, what else? What other charge and commandment do they have from God? Yeah, but they're not in the garden anymore if they get kicked out. Yeah, okay, go ahead. Yeah, no, but that's a right answer as well. But what about they get removed from the garden? Do they still have a charge from God? Yeah. Now we need to go back to Genesis 1 so we can refresh ourselves. Okay, Gilbert's question is this. Did Adam and Eve have faith? Now, this is a good example to clarify. Everything is always grace. There is a man in some other country. I didn't read the details because it was so absurd to me. I didn't want to read it because it was just so absurd. And I'm hoping that the headline was not misleading. I don't know if it was true or not, but from what I hear, People are saying it's true. There is a man in some other country who is suing his parents for bringing him into this world because he didn't ask to be brought into the world. I think the man is from India. And there's a court who's actually going to hear the case, whether he can sue his parents and they ought to, well, they ought to take him out then. Yeah, but it's so absurd. It's so absurd, but that's a thing now. Adam and Eve did not ask to be brought into this world and neither did you. If that offends you, that is indicative of this disease we have in us, this self-autonomy, if that's the word, or this idea that we decide or certain thing we should be asked at least as if we govern ourselves. Autonomy, right? I think there's another word. Is that what we call it, Brother Lynn? Autonomy? Yeah, like self-autonomy, self-governing, this idea that you are the captain of your own ship. Adam and Eve get brought into the world, okay, and God doesn't say, now, I wanna respect your will, what would you guys like to do? What would you guys, I mean, what would, no, God doesn't ask them, because He doesn't need to, He's God. He's God, He doesn't need to. And the principle remains true in your case. Some of us live lives and we don't even realize that we're sinning in this respect. We think life is about us and we make plans. about what we want to do in life, the Bible calls that presumption. In fact, the Bible goes even further and calls it evil. The idea is that you're thinking about what you want to do without really any regard to what God thinks about. No, no, I do think, I do wonder what God, and so that's why I ask him to bless me. God, I'm doing this, and I want you to put your stamp of approval. I've decided what I want to do, and then you, God, you come alongside me, and you need, yeah, I need, you know, It doesn't work like that. You come to the Lord realizing that your life belongs to Him, and you do what He says, not He does what you say. And so, at the garden, we begin by grace. Adam and Eve are right before God. And here are some hints that there is this relationship. How many of you recognize when a particular family member walks in the house? What are some of the distinguishing sounds The clinging of the keys, right? The dog barking. The dog has a particular, the door's open out in the front. The dog has a particular bark. I know when it's the kids who walk in because there's this, the door opens and they're just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom And then I know when it's letty because the sound of the footsteps are kind of slow and paced, and I'm in my room, and I hear it go through the living room, and then into the kitchen, and then you hear the clanging of the keys on the counter, and then the sound of dishes. And then I'm like, 30 seconds, here it comes, here comes the nagging. No, I'm just kidding, sweetie. Am I the only one who cleans around here? No, I'm kidding. No, she's not like that. Not anymore. Sanctification, folks. No, she quit that a long time ago, yesterday. So I hope I'm not imposing something on the text, but it's my suspicion that in Genesis chapter three, verse eight, and they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves. They knew who it was. Now, you might say, you might be smart pants about it. Well, of course, there's no one else. It's just Adam and Eve, and the only other visitor they ever get is God, so of course it's God. But it says they heard the sound of the Lord, meaning that it was a very familiar sound to them. And what has changed is their conscience, their self-awareness, because of their sin, and people have been doing this ever since, they run and they hide themselves from God. That's why they don't come to church. I told a coworker yesterday, my coworkers are notorious for misunderstanding what Christianity teaches. And I just finally got tired of it, and I told my coworker, and I didn't do it in a malicious or mean-spirited way, I just thought, I'm gonna be more direct. I said, Eric, you hate God. You hate him. And I said, I don't hate God. I said, well, you don't love him. And I said, I'm saying that we all collectively as human beings, the Bible says we hate God. The Bible says that the carnal mind, meaning the natural mind, is enmity. That means hostility against God. In our nature, we hate God. We don't like the things of God. And he was real quiet, and I was walking away. And he says, ah, I don't think I hate God. I said, Eric, so should I believe you or should I believe the Bible? Tell me. Do I believe you? Because you're saying you're engaging in self-assessment, but God is telling me about you. So who should I believe? It was silence for the rest of the day. And I was trying to explain to him that we're hostile against the things of God. That's what the Bible says. So that's why they hide themselves because of a guilty conscience. My point is they heard the sound of the Lord. It was a very familiar sound to them. They knew it was the Lord. Adam didn't say, babe, go quick, see who it is. If it's God, let me know and we'll hide. No, they knew it was the Lord. Now, why did they know it was the Lord? They knew it was the Lord because it was a familiar sound to them. They had a daily ongoing relationship with God on the basis of faith. They were brought into this world. They were made alive by God's grace. He didn't have to create them, but he did. And he didn't give them a time period. Okay, take care of the garden, and once you've fulfilled all my commands, maybe you'll be saved, and maybe we can talk. Until then, you've got to earn your relationship with me. No, it began by grace. And this is often a misunderstanding that people have in that the Old Testament begins with law, but it finishes with works. No, it doesn't. It begins with grace. God rescued the people from Egypt by His grace. And then when He gives them the commands, He reiterates to them what He did for them. That's grace. So the Bible is all of grace. Did Cain and Abel have faith? That's the next question. And I think it's related to this. It's related to this. Do they have a charge from God, Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel? that they have a charge from God, and then they did. Now, the charge from God was this, be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea. You should already know the answer to this, but Adam and Eve were charged with exercising stewardship over the earth with the rest of the humans that they would reproduce. So humanity as a collective whole We all together were supposed to live lives that glorified God by the manner in which we serve one another and by the manner in which we steward the creation of God. I know that's a mouthful, but that paints a general picture. And this is why the entire world is sinful because it's not doing this. The Bible says that the prince of the power of the air is directing the course of this world as far as its morals and its sin and all of that. And so the entire world has, by world, I mean people, they've hijacked the earth, if I can describe it that way, and they've pretty much living lives for ourselves. That's what it means to be sinful. Okay. Now, let's read Genesis 4, verse 1, verse 3, actually, verse 3. In the course of time, Cain brought to the Lord an offering of the fruit of the ground. Where did he learn to do that? The sense is this, that this seems to be something that they did ongoing, in an ongoing way, or it was a regular part of their relating to God. In the course of time, Cain brought to the Lord an offering of the fruit of the ground. And Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions." This is after the fall, folks. There's sin in the world. Cain and Abel are mortals. This is after the fall. Sin is into the world. Death is into the world. And here you have Cain and Abel exercising some sort of religion. And they're worshiping the right God because guess who shows up to speak with them? The right God. Do they have a priest? I don't know of any priest in here. Okay. But this is interesting. Now, what is presupposed by God, you do not have God come across and say, Cain, Cain, Cain, Cain, I'm so sorry. I must have not taught you right. Okay, listen, let's go back to the beginning. Whenever you come and you offer an offering, here's how you do it. What's being presupposed by God here is that Cain should have known better. So there's this already body of knowledge about how they should and how they should not relate to God. Where did they learn that? From their parents. So there is this sort of religion being passed down. Now the question, not to sound so repetitive, do Cain and Abel, do they have faith? I would say Abel has faith, but Cain And here's where the word faith, unfortunately, unfortunately, takes on a meaning that the Bible, when we say someone does not have faith, what comes to your mind when you think of people today when we say that person is not a person of faith? What do we think atheist? Now, if Ray says, hey, Chris, get my car, and I'll give you a ride home. And I say, Ray, I know how you drive. I want to get home safely. I'd rather walk. I'm not saying he drives crazy, right? And if B asked Ray, well, why didn't Chris want a ride from you? And then Ray would say, because apparently he has no faith in me. Now, does he mean I don't acknowledge his existence? No, it just means I don't trust you. That's what it means. Now, I don't know about his driving. It's just an analogy. So when we say that a person in the Bible did not have faith, we do not mean They didn't acknowledge the existence of God. It just simply means they didn't trust God. They don't love God. You can acknowledge that God exists and not have any faith in Him. Well, if God were so good, why does He allow all these bad things to happen? I had a person, I've said it here before, I had a young woman one time told me that she acknowledged that God exists. She said, but what do I need Him for? He couldn't even keep my marriage together. meaning she don't trust him with her relationship, and never mind that she was unfaithful. But eso es otra cosa, right? That's another thing. But she blamed God. I mean, they were both unfaithful to each other, and somehow God is at fault. I think he was the one that says, thou shall not commit adultery. But as far as she was concerned, she didn't trust him, but she acknowledges his existence. So there is something about God that Cain doesn't trust God, or maybe doesn't hold God in high esteem, more so doesn't love God, the New Testament calls him actually wicked. It says Cain was of the evil one. Go ahead. It could be. That's a good observation. What is wrong with What is wrong with Cain's offering? There's been two arguments suggested. Some have suggested, I'm not fully convinced of it because we do find that God does, in the law, accept offerings that are not bloody. I'm not gonna say that I'm completely right and I'm not gonna be dogmatic about it, but I do find good arguments to say that the error was not in that he failed to bring a bloody sacrifice, I could be wrong, maybe that is it, I'm just not convinced of it. I think it has more to do with Cain worshiped God in the manner that he wanted to worship God, and he was kind of half-hearted in his offering, and Abel, because the contrast here is that Abel brought of the firstborn of his flock, right? It says in verse three, in the course of time, Cain brought to the Lord an offering of the fruit of the ground. An offering, okay? And Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions, meaning the very best. So God does accept offerings that are not meat or bloody, but it still had to be the very best, the first of the harvest. So I think it has to do here with, anyways, that's, so, to answer Gilbert's question, Abel is a faith as expressed in a love for God. Cain goes through the motions, but doesn't have much love for the Lord or regard for him. Now, this is very interesting. because the wording should astound you, verse four. And Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions. And the Lord had regard for what? Abel, the person. the Lord had regard for Abel and his offering. It doesn't merely say, and the Lord had regard for Abel's offering. Why does it say for Abel, like the man, and his offering? Because what you offer to God is a reflection of who you are. And so if your offering is accepted, you are accepted. Because the offering is a, try that with your wife. Give her something half-hearted on a special anniversary or, okay, I mean, it's your 25th wedding anniversary. You go to the gumball machine and get a little plastic thing. I didn't have time to go to James Avery or whatever, but here's this. I got it on my first try, one quarter. She would not buy me, but it's the heart that matters. Yeah, you don't have one. You see? Because what you offer is a reflection or reflects what you think about the other person. Okay. Go ahead. or speaking of myself, when it was offered, it was more of an offering of, look what I did. Yeah. May God have mercy on your soul. Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Yeah. I've read both arguments, and I'm not so sure that I'm, I mean, Brother Lynn may feel differently. I just, I don't find it overly compelling. I find it somewhat compelling, but I'm not really sure. I do know that God rejected it. You know, I think that's what's important to understand. I know I keep bringing this up because I, it's like when my relative told me well, if God doesn't accept the love that I have for him the way I want to love him, then it's his loss. So it just reminds me of like, well, I'm going to bring this offering to him the way I want to worship him, the way I want to love him, but if he doesn't accept it, well, too bad. And I thought we were going to wreck after that, but we didn't. Prescriptive, you know the word. I think it was R.C. Sproul who was having a discussion with someone about worshiping God and the church in a way that he found inconsistent with biblical principles. And I think it was R…I might be wrong. He said, well, you know what? You can worship God however you want, but we're going to go ahead and worship God however he wants. And he was referring to, yes, and Brethren has brought this up, the Bible doesn't prescribe a time on Sunday morning, like 7.30 or 8 or 9 or 10. I think we have some freedom as far as the time is concerned. But he has prescribed certain principles that we are to always abide by. And so what Leti is referring to is those people who want to worship God in their own personalized, customized way, and God doesn't care for it because it's in a way that dishonors God. Did you know that when the golden calf was made, who were they worshiping? They were worshiping God. They didn't immediately fall into a foreign demonic deity. They were worshiping the God who rescued them out of Egypt, but they were doing it by a pagan way. And that means carving out image. So it could be argued they were worshiping the right God in the wrong way. And so a lot of these, like Nahab and Abihum, when they got burned up, they were priests of God, but they were not to offer strange fire, meaning a fire that had not been prescribed. So these judgments, or what about when, I think one of my kids brought it up about when they were bringing back the ark and someone put their hand out to it and God killed them. If you're ignorant of what's going on there, well, first of all, The ark should have never been on a cart to begin with because God had laid out in detail very, very specific ways in which the ark was supposed to be transported and by whom it was supposed to be transported. But they decided to transport it the way they wanted to transport it. Yeah, just throw it on the cart, much easier. And so there was no reverence there. And yeah, they're celebrating and all that, but God was not pleased because of the manner And of course, they were never to touch it. Well, it was gonna fall on the ground. Again, R.C. Sproul says, it would have been better for them to have allowed it to fall on the ground because the ground was a lot cleaner than the sinner's hands. So we miss the holiness of God and the prescriptive will of God concerning how God is to be worshiped. So we're out of time, but this is, huh? What? Go ahead, Brother Gilbert. No, I you know, there's some no, I think he just allowed him I think God reasoned with him And I that was gracious on God's part if you go back to Genesis chapter 4 This is the Bible demonstrates That God condescends And God reasons with us, and He appeals and He pleads, which He doesn't have to because really, He's God. You know, sometimes I can be the parent who doesn't reason with my kids just because I said so. I'm your dad, period. I don't have to explain anything to you. They love that side of me. They rejoice. Why are you laughing, Nina? But there's other times when I'm not being so harsh where I'll sit down and say, okay, listen. But I don't have to do that, but it's the more gracious thing to do, to sit down and reason, think through things. And yes, God would perfectly be in the right to say, because I said so, because I'm God. But do we find that from God? We find that he actually condescends and he reasons. I mean, just look at the way God deals with Cain. But for Cain and his offering, he had no regard, so Cain was very angry and his face fell. And the Lord said to Cain, you have no right to be angry. If anyone should be angry, it should be me. How dare you? Who do you think you are? And God asks questions that you think, why? He's God, he knows. Adam, where are you? What kind of question is that? We already know you're omnipresent. You're all knowing. No, he reasons. Adam, where are you? It's not Adam, where are you? Because God wants to know. It's more like, Adam, do you know where you are? Talking about not geography, but relationship. And so the same thing with Cain. The Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? God knows, but why is he doing that? Because he wants Cain to reason through this matter. He wants really, and as a parent, you'll find that this can be very effective. Instead of going into a shouting match with your kids, which we all do, and it's not really the best approach, and we all engage in it, as far as going back and forth, is speak calmly and reason through things. And I've engaged in both, and to my shame, sometimes I don't, you know, anyways, I don't wanna be talking about me tonight. But the Lord said to Cain, why are you angry and why has your face fallen? Now listen to the reasoning here. If you do well, will you not be accepted? That presupposes that Cain knew the right thing to do and he didn't do it. Again, there is this body of knowledge and wisdom that Cain should have had, but he sinned against it. If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, listen to this, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you. Now the desire here is sin has a desire to dominate and enslave you. That's what it's talking about. Sin is crouching at the door, just waiting for you to do the wrong thing or even entertained it so it can help you to Do it. Sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it. So there is this presupposition that you have the opportunity to do right. Do it. See how God reasons? But we find that Cain resisted God's reasoning and rather chose to remain angry And he's angry. And it's interesting because why is he angry? Why is he angry? Well, he's jealous, but that's one. But he's angry because in his conscience, he knows he's a sinner. And until he repents, God hasn't accepted him. Folks, that's the same principle at work among unbelievers. They're angry. In fact, you know, some have suggested even those who are proud, in-your-face, practicing homosexuals, and they shout to others, shame, shame, shame, it's because that's what they're fighting. They're fighting their conscience. They know they're wrong. And so when you're angry at God, you can't lash out at God. You can't attack Him. He's invisible. So the next best thing is to attack one who represents Him. And so the thing here is Abel is the closest thing to God or the closest person to God that he knows. And so he attacks Abel and murders him. Now, as if that isn't enough, listen to how God deals so patiently with Cain. It really is amazing. I think it's too easy to miss this. Verse 8, Cain spoke to Abel, his brother, and when they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother and killed him. Then the Lord said to Cain, Where's your brother? Where's Abel, your brother? He said, I don't know. Am I my brother's keeper? And the Lord said, What have you done? What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to me from the ground. And now you are cursed from the ground which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. You see how he still reasons with him? When you work the ground, it shall no longer yield to you its strength. You shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth. Cain said to the Lord, listen, not fair. That's basically what that means. This is why the New Testament calls him of the evil one. He's a wicked man because he demonstrates no repentance, no remorse, and he continues in his anger. My punishment is greater than I can bear. In other words, he's accusing God of being heavy handed. And he's playing the victim. People who are not genuinely repentant, One of the first signs that they demonstrate is they are upset about the negative consequences that come as a result of their sins. If somebody does something, you know, you name it, whatever, and they're repentant or they're sorry in a worldly way, like they steal from their job and they get fired, they're like, well, I said I was sorry. I don't see why they have to. They didn't have to fire me. I mean, I told him I was sorry. Now what's gonna happen now? I don't have a paycheck. And that doesn't sound like someone who is genuinely remorseful. I knew of a man and I knew I said, man, this guy's not right. He was a liar and a cheater. And he was always lying to his wife and stealing money from the household. He had a drug problem. And his wife amazingly would forgive him and receive him back. But whenever she, demonstrated suspicion or lack of trust. And I'm like, dude, she has every reason to not trust you. I mean, it's amazing that she's even still with you. Not that I was encouraging separation, but man, this woman took a lot. And he would complain about it. He would complain. I already told her I was sorry. I just don't understand why she has to always question and show like she doesn't believe me. I mean, I know I've told her I'm sorry. I'm like, dude, you don't, like, yeah. And sure enough, with time, he proved that he never really abandoned his drug use, stealing money, being a liar. He just simply know how to outwardly, at least on a surface level, demonstrate some sort of remorse or repentance. But the red flag for me was always the person who isn't genuinely repentant is the one who always cries about the negative fallout from their sinful choices. Listen, and the other thing, they don't take responsibility. Okay, that's another, now we got into a totally different message today. But that's okay, because we need it. Look at verse 14. Who does he blame for his exile, in verse 14. Who does Cain blame for his exile? Behold, you have driven me today from the ground. Behold, you have driven me today from the ground, away from the ground, and from your face I shall be hidden. I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me. Now he's worried again about the consequences. Like he's not worried that he killed Abel. He's like, well, somebody is going to want to kill me now. It's amazing. It really is. And then he's upset that from your face, I shall be hidden. In other words, it almost sounds like he wants continued access to God, but not for God, but for what God can provide. And even then, God puts up with him. It's amazing, it really is. Then the Lord said to him, not so, if anyone kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. Oh, so now you're protecting him, right? Then the Lord said to Cain, not so, if anyone kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord put a mark on Cain, saying, less than he who found him should attack him. Go ahead, Isaac. No, because Adam and Eve are still living, and they could very much still reproduce. You're assuming that. The text doesn't say that. Yeah, like he's assuming that there are no other people. Huh? Or sisters? I mean, because we're not given a time. Brother Len, you had something to say? Okay. Oh, he was going like this. Yeah. Yeah. He's like, I got to work tomorrow. Yeah. No, I'm just kidding. I don't have my glasses. So I just see hand motions like, uh, go ahead, Chris. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah. We don't know how old they are because it says in the course of time. So we don't know how much time has gone by. Um, here, here, here's my opinion about why God doesn't allow anyone to take vengeance. on Cain. And I think part of the answer, not the total answer, is because there isn't...here's one example. There's a passage in the Bible that says, and everyone did what was right in their own eyes. And it's immediately, that statement, there was no king in Israel. I think her name was Dina or Dinah. She was humbled or raped by a fellow, another people group, right? And if you look at the Mosaic Law, there was a prescribed, there's a standard by which something like that is to be punished. Israel decided to do what was right in their own eyes, to do justice according to how they felt. So they convinced all the males from the town to circumcise themselves, men who weren't even part of the original crime of rape, okay? And then while they were weak, recovering from the circumcision, they killed all the men in the city. That is the justice of man. It's a cruel and wicked, right? So when David was asked by God, do you want me to judge you or do you want me to turn you over to other people to judge you? And David said, no, you judge me. Not because God is nicer, but because God is just. And also God is merciful, but man can often be can be very cruel, and so I suspect that allowing people to engage in execution, I don't think this is yet something that's implemented by God, because we really don't see it. We really don't see it until after the flood. Whoever sheds the blood of man by his blood, by man shall his blood be shed. So God institutes capital punishment, a form of government at that point. Now, that's my opinion, but The other reason I think is the more important one is despite Cain's initial resistance towards God, someone could argue that God was giving him time to repent. If God executes him and he would have been just to have done so, then that door of salvation is closed to him, doesn't have time to repent. But then that goes into the foreknowledge of God and Gilbert just... I'm just kidding. No, I'm just kidding. But again, so we'll leave it at that. I don't have no idea. We went all over the place tonight, but I think it was helpful. What'd y'all learn tonight? Well, we learned about the church. Oh, like what? Like King, what does that have to do with the church, right? All right. If someone can wake up, no, I'm just kidding. All right, let's pray. Any questions or comments or something to think about for next week before we dismiss?